The war on ISIS.

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Please elaborate. Because I imagine at this point you've got a tin foil hat and a clove of garlic.
Let's not descend to personal attacks (again) shall we..

It's simple, you allow a minority from a part of the globe supremely mal-adapted to western society and give them sanctuary. You treat them as equals, perhaps more than equals in your desire to integrate them which takes the form of laws restricting free speech, hushing of institutions such as the police, schools and social services. Benefits are given with no expectation of a payback to society at large (think the Somali population in my area) and they are free to have as many children as they like (which is considerable in comparison to the indigenous population).

Then you wonder why the bad values of the countries they've left behind fester in the community (Pakistani sex gangs). You realise too late that by bending over backwards you are powerless to criticise without coming across as that career killing phrase "racist".

And then people like me put their tin foil hat back on, sipping their cocoa in multicultural "heaven".

-----

I'm sounding ominous so I'll make a suggestion. America doesn't have nearly the same problem with homegrown jihadis or muslim integration as we do over here, and it's all to do with their attitude to immigrants. If we could learn to stop babying everyone coming here with a sob story we'd all be better for it in the long run.
 
It's simple, you allow a minority from a part of the globe supremely mal-adapted to western society and give them sanctuary.
I'm sounding ominous so I'll make a suggestion. America doesn't have nearly the same problem with homegrown jihadis or muslim integration as we do over here,
Hmm, that's an interesting juxtaposition.

I don't really understand the idea that multiculturalism means you're bending over backwards for things like sex rings, FGM, honour killings, etc etc. Where I'm from these things are all highly illegal and honour killings are treated the same way as if Bob Jones from Calgary killed Gord Smith from Edmonton over a Calgary-Edmonton hockey rivalry.
 
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It's simple, you allow a minority from a part of the globe supremely mal-adapted to western society and give them sanctuary. You treat them as equals, perhaps more than equals in your desire to integrate them which takes the form of laws restricting free speech, hushing of institutions such as the police, schools and social services. Benefits are given with no expectation of a payback to society at large (think the Somali population in my area) and they are free to have as many children as they like (which is considerable in comparison to the indigenous population).

Then you wonder why the bad values of the countries they've left behind fester in the community (Pakistani sex gangs). You realise too late that by bending over backwards you are powerless to criticise without coming across as that career killing phrase "racist".

And then people like me put their tin foil hat back on, sipping their cocoa in multicultural "heaven".
You're basing all this on extremely isolated incidents, hence why, the accusation or paranoia is entirely justified.

There are 1.4 million people that identify as British Indian in the UK. That's half the population of Wales. A further 1.5 million that identify as British Asian. That's 3 million in total, and the vast majority of which live in England.

And yet, you argument is based on the actions of less than 100 convicted criminals. It's arguable that it's massively under reported. So lets say there's 1000. That's still less than 0.04% of the British Asian population. As of 2006 there were approx 29,000 people on the UK Sex Offenders Register (see Guardian). That's 0.05% of the UK population.

So which is worst? The UK population on the whole, or the mal-adapted, 2nd immigrant population?

I'm sounding ominous so I'll make a suggestion. America doesn't have nearly the same problem with homegrown jihadis or muslim integration as we do over here, and it's all to do with their attitude to immigrants. If we could learn to stop babying everyone coming here with a sob story we'd all be better for it in the long run.
Really?
From Sept. 11, 2001 to January 2014, there were 74 known terrorist plots perpetrated by Americans, lawful U.S. residents or visitors largely radicalized here in the United States, according to the most recent data reported by the Congressional Research Service.

Five of those plots were carried out before law enforcement was able to intervene.

Fifty-three of the cases – almost 72 percent – happened after April 2009.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...r-of-homegrown-terrorists-is-rising/21940159/

That's not to deny that the UK doesn't have a problem (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-Britain-mostly-home-grown-report-says.html), but you're idea that America is better at preventing it is somewhat off the mark.

[EDIT] To add 'UK Sex Offenders Register'
 
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It's simple, you allow a minority from a part of the globe supremely mal-adapted to western society and give them sanctuary.
As is our obligation under international law, and the numbers we take are low for the size of country we are.



You treat them as equals, perhaps more than equals in your desire to integrate them which takes the form of laws restricting free speech, hushing of institutions such as the police, schools and social services.
Actually they have no higher status in law that any other member of the country and in a number of areas have a low level of protection, now that the law has not been correctly applied is another matter entirely, but that not unique to this group either.


Benefits are given with no expectation of a payback to society at large (think the Somali population in my area) and they are free to have as many children as they like (which is considerable in comparison to the indigenous population).
If you are talking about migrants from outside the EU and/or asylum seekers then quite frankly you are incorrect, as the level of welfare they are entitled too (if anything) is significantly lower than that for an EU or UK citizen.
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/po...HSK1tpjnzntviwlhIJzmduesScv_spyFaoxoCIxfw_wcB
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1
http://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/...forces-thousands-children-live-severe-poverty

As for higher birthrates, are you suggesting forced sterilization? I take it that you are aware that the 'they are going to out-bred us' myth is just that, a myth.
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690


Then you wonder why the bad values of the countries they've left behind fester in the community (Pakistani sex gangs). You realise too late that by bending over backwards you are powerless to criticise without coming across as that career killing phrase "racist".
I take it you can provide a source to show that 'sex gangs' are the norm in Pakistani to back up that claim.


And then people like me put their tin foil hat back on, sipping their cocoa in multicultural "heaven".
Multicultural does not equal letting anyone get away with what ever they want, please don't infer it does, as given that my family is multicultural I find it both inaccurate and biased.


I'm sounding ominous so I'll make a suggestion. America doesn't have nearly the same problem with homegrown jihadis or muslim integration as we do over here, and it's all to do with their attitude to immigrants. If we could learn to stop babying everyone coming here with a sob story we'd all be better for it in the long run.
Citation required.[/QUOTE]
 
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Hmm, that's an interesting juxtaposition.

I don't really understand the idea that multiculturalism means you're bending over backwards for things like sex rings, FGM, honour killings, etc etc. Where I'm from these things are all highly illegal and honour killings are treated the same way as if Bob Jones from Calgary killed Gord Smith from Edmonton over a Calgary-Edmonton hockey rivalry.
An introduction into the cover ups committed by the council over the Rotherham scandal. Victims were actually ignored to protect racial profiling of the perpetrators.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...candal-The-catalogue-of-council-failings.html

You're basing all this on extremely isolated incidents, hence why, the accusation or paranoia is entirely justified.
Extremely isolated? Do you have any idea how many people are being arrested for terrorist offences? Let's have a look at my experience:

-The guy arrested trying to fake his own death to come back to Britain is from my hometown.
-One of the guys held for plotting to kill the queen was arrested on my sister's boyfriend's road.
-My university issued a college wide email saying a student had been arrested on terror charges.
-The Cardiff ISIS fighter had an offer to study medicine at my medical school.

That is just some of my closest connections with terror incidents, and you dare to tell me they are extremely isolated? Either I'm the unluckiest person in Britain or you need to check your facts.

And paranoia? Where were you during the London riots? I was in the back of a car with a cricket bat going to pick up a friend who was stuck in her house as thugs were on her road bricking houses and shops. All that started from the death of one criminal.

Imagine if we intervene in the Middle East, or if a riot breaks out when Pegida comes to London? Will you call me paranoid then?

ExigeEvan
There are 1.4 million people that identify as British Indian in the UK. That's half the population of Wales. A further 1.5 million that identify as British Asian. That's 3 million in total, and the vast majority of which live in England.
Never call a Pakistani an Indian or vice versa!

ExigeEvan
So which is worst? The UK population on the whole, or the mal-adapted, 2nd immigrant population?
In essence you're asking me to compare who is worse, Jimmy Saville or Pakistani sex gangs. I'm highlighting the fact that the treatment of these two evils is what needs comparing.
ExigeEvan
Compare the percentages please.

As is our obligation under international law, and the numbers we take are low for the size of country we are.
Are they low enough? Was the public even consulted?

Scaff
Actually they have no higher status in law that any other member of the country and in a number of areas have a low level of protection, now that the law has not been correctly applied is another matter entirely, but that not unique to this group either.
It's not unique to this group (think celebrity sex scandals or the MP trafficking), but it's still there.

Scaff
If you are talking about migrants from outside the EU and/or asylum seekers then quite frankly you are incorrect, as the level of welfare they are entitled too (if anything) is significantly lower than that for an EU or UK citizen.
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/po...HSK1tpjnzntviwlhIJzmduesScv_spyFaoxoCIxfw_wcB
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1
http://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/...forces-thousands-children-live-severe-poverty
Nope, higher birthrates leading us to:

Scaff
As for higher birthrates, are you suggesting forced sterilization? I take it that you are aware that the 'they are going to out-bred us' myth is just that, a myth.
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690
Erm I think a review of the benefits system should be enough. And I never suggested we will have a muslim majority anytime soon - the furthest I will go is that Islam will continue to be the fastest growing religion in England for quite some time.

Scaff
I take it you can provide a source to show that 'sex gangs' are the norm in Pakistani to back up that claim.
Northumbria:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-charged-rape-sexual-assault-trafficking.html
Birmingham:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ice-bid-protect-Birmingham-grooming-gang.html
Rochdale:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-25450512

If I told you that from growing up around the Pakistani community and dating a Pakistani girl I could easily say that Rochdale is just the tip of the iceberg, I'd hope you could take my word on it without going further.

Scaff
Multicultural does not equal letting anyone get away with what ever they want, please don't infer it does, as given that my family is multicultural I find it both inaccurate and biased.
It shouldn't, but it currently means making allowances for certain communities (NOT just muslim). This is what I'm trying to say is wrong with our approach.

Scaff
Citation required.
Was an extension from this article:
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...-better-america-europe-islamic-yet-integrated
 
Extremely isolated? Do you have any idea how many people are being arrested for terrorist offences? Let's have a look at my experience:

-The guy arrested trying to fake his own death to come back to Britain is from my hometown.
-One of the guys held for plotting to kill the queen was arrested on my sister's boyfriend's road.
-My university issued a college wide email saying a student had been arrested on terror charges.
-The Cardiff ISIS fighter had an offer to study medicine at my medical school.

That is just some of my closest connections with terror incidents, and you dare to tell me they are extremely isolated? Either I'm the unluckiest person in Britain or you need to check your facts.
Congratulations, you are potentially within 6 degrees of separation from several convicted terrorists.

Similarly, I've also lived much of my life within 200 yards of a large cannabis house (~£100k), socialised at a place that became one of the largest cannabis factories in the UK (~£1,000,000) and now live near an industrial sized farm that was discovered only recently (as yet undisclosed, but potentially 9,000 sq.ft). However, I don't believe that cannabis cultivation is a threat to our society or is particularly rampant.

And paranoia? Where were you during the London riots? I was in the back of a car with a cricket bat going to pick up a friend who was stuck in her house as thugs were on her road bricking houses and shops. All that started from the death of one criminal.
Perhaps naive then? You took a cricket bat to fight a group of people using missiles. Out numbered and out-armed.

FYI, I was in Wales.

Never call a Pakistani an Indian or vice versa!
I didn't :odd: I was giving you a breakdown of British Asians, of which British Indians are the largest demographic.

In essence you're asking me to compare who is worse, Jimmy Saville or Pakistani sex gangs. I'm highlighting the fact that the treatment of these two evils is what needs comparing.
No I'm not. I'm attempting to show using source based facts and statistics that sex crimes by minority groups are no greater than that of the wider population, and are potentially lower than the wider population.

Compare the percentages please.
Which numbers would you like to use?
 
Congratulations, you are potentially within 6 degrees of separation from several convicted terrorists.

Similarly, I've also lived much of my life within 200 yards of a large cannabis house (~£100k), socialised at a place that became one of the largest cannabis factories in the UK (~£1,000,000) and now live near an industrial sized farm that was discovered only recently (as yet undisclosed, but potentially 9,000 sq.ft). However, I don't believe that cannabis cultivation is a threat to our society or is particularly rampant.
Erm, you said extremely isolated. My point refutes yours. And yes, cannabis is right up there on the threat level with terrorism 👍

ExigeEvan
Perhaps naive then? You took a cricket bat to fight a group of people using missiles. Out numbered and out-armed.
We can't take guns.

ExigeEvan
I didn't :odd: I was giving you a breakdown of British Asians, of which British Indians are the largest demographic.
So why do I need to know about British Indians??

ExigeEvan
No I'm not. I'm attempting to show using source based facts and statistics that sex crimes by minority groups are no greater than that of the wider population, and are potentially lower than the wider population.
Go back, read through the information I presented and see how your statistics are completely meaningless. Here's a hint - think of the scale of victims involved (there were over 1400 in Rotherham alone), actual convictions (which I have shown you has been notoriously low) and what they are on the Sexual Offenders register for.

ExigeEvan
Which numbers would you like to use?
Give me a comparison of terrorist arrests/convictions for America vs us, then put it as a percent of the population.
 
Are they low enough? Was the public even consulted?
The population is rarely consulted directly about anything, that's the nature of the system in which we live. However you do have a voice when it comes to elections.


It's not unique to this group (think celebrity sex scandals or the MP trafficking), but it's still there.
And?

The claim you made was that they are treated better in law, a claim that you have not been able to support.


Nope, higher birthrates leading us to:


Erm I think a review of the benefits system should be enough. And I never suggested we will have a muslim majority anytime soon - the furthest I will go is that Islam will continue to be the fastest growing religion in England for quite some time.
Nope that still doesn't actually show what ever it is you are trying to claim?

Now if you are trying to claim that by having more kids they will be placed in a position that is more advantageous then a UK/Eu citizen then once again that is incorrect (as the sourced supplied show).



And that shows that sex gangs are a cultural norm for Pakistanis how?

By that logic the same is true of any white christian, based on far wider and longer historically catalog of abuse by Catholics.

The issue here is that the law was not applied as it should have been, in exactly the same way it was in the case of Catholic and the historic abuse cases. However I don't see you attempting to make that a cultural norm for those groups?


If I told you that from growing up around the Pakistani community and dating a Pakistani girl I could easily say that Rochdale is just the tip of the iceberg, I'd hope you could take my word on it without going further.
I could do the exact same for the Indian / Catholic community (with the difference of being married into it for twenty years), the difference would be that I would not then apply that to every member of said communities.


It shouldn't, but it currently means making allowances for certain communities (NOT just muslim). This is what I'm trying to say is wrong with our approach.
What your talking about is not Multiculturalism, so please stop claiming it is (as its on par with the miss-use that the likes of the Daily Mail use).



Links not working for me.
 
It's funny that you act as a moral superior, when in reality attitudes like yours only serve to increase the body count. As someone who wishes to rescue anyone they can find on the seas, you're making the option of taking a dinghy to Europe more attractive for future refugees as well, even though it's an extremely foolish and dangerous path, and will continue to result in fatalities as long as it continues to happen. Not to mention it's illegal as hell, as this is human traffickers we're dealing with here. Not the kind of people whose livelihood any sane person would like to support.

Actually, I support estabilishing safe routes for refugees. Routes that would that guarantees these people a way out of conflict while at the same time reducing their risk of dying in the Mediterrean (and the profits of human traffickers) to 0. It is something that we have the capability and the resources to do, after all.

So, the queston is, would you agree if the UN demanded that all European nations provide the means (ships, planes and the like) and personnel to evacuate people seeking refuge from the ISIL's onslaught and/or the rampant civil wars affecting those countries? Since your chief concern seems to be about the safety of refugees that currently have to take "dangerous paths", and not all that - oh god! - the intermingling with barbarians you'd have to do if those people were allowed to temporarily or permanently resettle in Europe, I'm quite sure you would be very supportive of a new and enhanced Orderly Departure Program.

But I guess you'll put up some ******** excuses to defend your current position, which basically amounts to - let's give those savages a lesson by letting their boats sink while we watch. I know your excuse, that letting some dinghy sink would make the idea of escaping to Europe less attractive for those people (nevermind that the other choice is living under the rule of the ISIL, if they are allowed to live that is). It's a trite excuse the far-right wing keeps using, thinking it's a clever way to hide their inherently racist opposition to the idea of - gasp! - muslims living in ChristianWhite™ Europe.

It shouldn't, but it currently means making allowances for certain communities (NOT just muslim). This is what I'm trying to say is wrong with our approach.

Yeah, well, the British approach to multiculturalism (collective rights having the priority over individual rights) has failed. So has the French one (which is not that dissimilar to the British one, but puts the strong prerogatives of the State above collective rights). And let it be very clear - for me the law is the law, and it should be applied to any "community" regardless of their ethnicity and religion. But I simply believe that within the frame of just, non-discriminatory law, and with a radical action to fight social exclusion in any form, coexistence of different cultures is entirely possible.
 
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But I guess you'll put up some ******** excuses to defend your current position, which basically amounts to - let's give those savages a lesson by letting their boats sink while we watch. I know your excuse, that letting some dinghy sink would make the idea of escaping to Europe less attractive for those people (nevermind that the other choice is living under the rule of the ISIL, if they are allowed to live that is). It's a trite excuse the far-right wing keeps using, thinking it's a clever way to hide their inherently racist opposition to the idea of - gasp! - muslims living in ChristianWhite™ Europe.

Yes, because the far right are all white Christian racists who like to watch people drown for the fun of it. If you're going post like such a child, why even bother posting at all?
 
Yes, because the far right are all white Christian racists who like to watch people drown for the fun of it. If you're going post like such a child, why even bother posting at all?

Well, the list of far-right European party who wouldn't let migrants drown for absolutely ridiculous reasons. Or for that matter, a far-right party that doesn't see the immigrations of people of other ethnicities as a threat. Go ahead, I'll wait. And if you feel like I'm a child, I may grow up a man by the time you come back from your quest.
 
I would reckon that sane people wouldn't allow people to drown, which shouldn't be the bloody point to this conversation! The point should be is when ISIS would man up and try to invade Italy for Muslim conquest, would the Italians would have the guts to actually fight them during the invasion. Remember this map people:

Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate_svg.png


That is actually coming if the world doesn't stop ISIS now!
 
View attachment 314640

That is actually coming if the world doesn't stop ISIS now!

Oh, that's cute.

roman-empire.gif


If we're talking about the extention of past empires, then it's not the Muslims you have to fear, Britannia.

As for the guts, you'll find that in modern times Italians haven't taken very kindly to invaders trying to impose their rule upon them. When the Germans invaded us during WWII, my grandfather ran up the hills and joined the Resistance. I'd only be proud to do the same, should the need arise.

That being said, the ISIL is not even worth the consideration it gets as a conventional threat. For all their talking, they have no true military capability to speak of. If they have advanced so far it's because they faced opponents that could be bought, or intimidated. The modern-day Italian Armed Forces, despite the lingering prejudice, aren't that kind of military force.

As for terrorism, what kind of people would we be if we allowed a couple of psycopaths to intimidate us?
 
Well, the list of far-right European party who wouldn't let migrants drown for absolutely ridiculous reasons. Or for that matter, a far-right party that doesn't see the immigrations of people of other ethnicities as a threat. Go ahead, I'll wait. And if you feel like I'm a child, I may grow up a man by the time you come back from your quest.

They may all agree that we should have stricter immigration policies, but that's not what you said. You said that the far right, implying every single member of a far right party, was white, Christian and racist, you prove your own ridiculous claim because, despite that fact that it would be very simple, I don't want to waste my time disproving you.
 

I was presenting historical context to the discussion, so there is no need to insult me in the process.

As with any mad man, ISIS would demand world domination. But unlike them, they really want religious domination. Ignoring that aspect of their motivations would be paramount to suicide. I don't care if you are Roman Catholic, Greek or Russian Orthodox, or even Baptist like I am. They are killers, and they will kill you for some perceived slight, even being a Christian chief among them.
 
They may all agree that we should have stricter immigration policies, but that's not what you said. You said that the far right, implying every single member of a far right party, was white, Christian and racist, you prove your own ridiculous claim because, despite that fact that it would be very simple, I don't want to waste my time disproving you.

Oh, no - I know there are a lot of people that aren't Christian, nor white, and despite that, buy in their propaganda. And I'm sure somewhere there must be someone who actually believes that letting boats sink to deter Lybians and Syrians from leaving their countries is a sound tactic. But the bulk of the people who support this kind of strategies is white, Christian, and very vocal about it. The leaders of the European far-right parties are all ChristianWhite™ down to their core. They're the kind of people who once insulted a certain group of downtrodden people, and now are looking at their support in curbstomping the rights of a new group who appeared beneath them.

And we're not talking about immigration policies, we're talking about refugees. Helping them where they live, as one such leader, one Matteo Salvini, is fond of saying, won't cut it. Unless they plan to WOLOLOLOLO the factions involved in brutal and often sectarian conflicts in those areas into cooperation.

They may sound like they're using their logic to come up with their solutions. But they don't. And the moment we buy again in the kind of propaganda that devalues human lives in such a way, we're at a grave danger. Movements like the Italian Lega Nord or the French Front National or the German PEGIDA are trying to construct a threat only to cash on it when election day comes. What they'll do is further their agenda - and I think you will find plenty of leads on what that agenda may entail.

But just to make my message clear...

Lutz_Bachmann_posing_as_Hitler.jpg


This is the (ex)leader of the PEGIDA movement, Lutz Bachmann. The highlights of his life, and short-lived political career?

  • Has a criminal record for sixteen burglaries, trafficking cocaine, assault and drunk driving - he fled to South Africa, but was quickly deported back to Germany;
  • He posted a photo of a man wearing the uniform of the US white supremacist organisation Ku Klux Klan accompanied by the slogan: "Three Ks a day keeps the minorities away";
  • He insulted asylum-seekers on Facebook calling them "scumbags", "stupid cows" and "trash" when the Dresden Prosecution started investigations on his nifty Hitlerstache.

Totally not a racist, and totally trust-worthy.

P.S: in the future, take my generalizations with a grain of salt. Of course there are people of diverse origins supporting this kind of movements. There were Zionist Jews supporting the NSDAP in its early days (back when its anti-Semitism was somewhat sugarcoated with the promise of a "new land for the Juden"), after all. But they are one in a million rather than the normality, and they must renounce their cultural and religious roots (like Magdi Cristiano Allam or Toni Iwobi, to cite two prominent Italian examples). And they're always sort of second-class members (like Sandy Cane, who quit with Lega Nord after being pushed aside when her party, Lega Nord, shifted their focus from localism to racist nationalism).

And to make a long post even longer...

I was presenting historical context to the discussion, so there is no need to insult me in the process.

As with any mad man, ISIS would demand world domination. But unlike them, they really want religious domination. Ignoring that aspect of their motivations would be paramount to suicide. I don't care if you are Roman Catholic, Greek or Russian Orthodox, or even Baptist like I am. They are killers, and they will kill you for some perceived slight, even being a Christian chief among them.

I didn't want to come off as insulting. I was simply trying to underline how historical maps are quite insignificant. To provide further context: there has been an attempt, in the 20-40s, to set the clock back to 117 CE. The man behind this attempt was one Benito Mussolini. He was the kind of man who sent his thirty tanks to parade in Naples one day, then had them loaded on a special train and got them delivered to Rome, where they paraded again... And ended up believing he had sixty tanks (now, this is an old joke that I think is false, but that fits the character well).

To cut to the cheese, he got his ass handed by France, Greece, and managed to get 20,000 men killed in Ethiopia, against an army commanded by Rastafari Jesus. Italy lost WWII in 1943, setting what must be some sort of record in the process, and he ended up hanging upside down with more holes in his body than a colander. And if it wasn't for the Marshall Plan's aids, we'd still be a smoldering ruin.

Likewise, the ISIS can demand world domination as much as they want and threat people that don't conform to their logic as much as much as they want. I am not ignoring their motivations, I am however considering their numbers and offensive capabilities (which are laughable - they got 20,000 militiamen armed with old Kalashnikov and some stolen artillery piece for which they can't produce munitions; most of them are in it only for the money).

It'd be like being worried for North Korea's incessant threats (which by the way haven't stopped - we're simply ignoring them because we now got a bigger boogeyman to keep us awake at night). They can talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk, not one step of it, without getting bombed back to the Bronze Age.
 
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ISIL might dream of a global caliphate, but right now, they're limited to half of Syria and half of Iraq, and their rate of expansion has slowed down dramatically. It will be a very long time before they will be in any position to invade Europe, much less stand a chance of succeeding.
 
And?

The claim you made was that they are treated better in law, a claim that you have not been able to support.
Read the link I posted about Birmingham, or any news story about Rotherham.

And for God's sake, look how we are treating that kid in the Chelsea racism storm, which is actually a reflection on society at large but such an attitude comes from unequal distribution of law (please look at the story of a child abuse victim of a sex gang verbally abusing her attacker and receiving police vans as a proportionate response)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...user-street-SHE-arrested-van-load-police.html

Scaff
Nope that still doesn't actually show what ever it is you are trying to claim?
I said higher birth rates than the indigenous

Scaff
Now if you are trying to claim that by having more kids they will be placed in a position that is more advantageous then a UK/Eu citizen then once again that is incorrect (as the sourced supplied show).

A quote from the Equality and Human Rights Commission:

"Family size among foreign-
born populations is higher
than the UK-born population.
Proportionally more households have three
or more children, and the Afghanistan,
Bangladesh, Pakistan and Somalia-born popul
ation have the highest proportion of
families with five or more children. For ex
ample, some 10.8 per
cent of Somalia-born
households have five or more children, comp
ared with just 0.3 per
cent of the UK-
born population. These groups
are overwhelmingly housed in
the rental sector, in
social housing or in privat
e rental accommodation, as
many of those with larger
families and lower incomes may be unable to
afford to purchase suitable property."


http://www.ippr.org/assets/media/ec...sing_allocation_and_immigrant_communities.pdf

Scaff
And that shows that sex gangs are a cultural norm for Pakistanis how?
You're right, they picked up their stellar attitude to women and girls from Britain, silly me. Dude, even the Pakistani women I work with on shifts in hospital freely admit "You know what they're like"

Let's see what happens when we look at purely Asians in Britain?
Hindu grooming gangs in Britain - Nope
Sikh grooming gangs in Britain - Nope, in fact they are quite the target for muslims since they have an honour code stifling reporting of sexual violence.
How about my country: Tamil or Sinhalese grooming gangs - Nope
Nepalese grooming gangs - Nope

Let's add those two muslim dominated countries into the equation - Pakistan and Bangladesh.

"Hey you might be on to something there KSaiyu"

You can also see why a few Asians have a problem with the media's insistence on calling them "Asian grooming gangs". We are well aware we are included only to avoid calling them for what they are. But sure, bleat on about how this isn't a cultural/religious problem and we are all racist. I'd advise you stay away from the north of England or places around my area, just as a friendly warning.

Scaff
By that logic the same is true of any white christian, based on far wider and longer historically catalog of abuse by Catholics.
I would look up Islams long and troubled history with slavery, in particular sex slavery before bringing in the Catholics.

Scaff
The issue here is that the law was not applied as it should have been, in exactly the same way it was in the case of Catholic and the historic abuse cases. However I don't see you attempting to make that a cultural norm for those groups?
With the situation as it is now in Britain it is nowhere near the same scale, although if you have statistics to the contrary then by all means. Saying that, recent Popes have been making inroads into tackling predatory clergy though not anywhere near to a satisfactory level for me.

Scaff
I could do the exact same for the Indian / Catholic community (with the difference of being married into it for twenty years), the difference would be that I would not then apply that to every member of said communities.
Who applies it to every member of the community. All I'm suggesting is you identify a trend and recognise it. Would you say all Catholic priests are kiddy fiddlers?

Scaff
What your talking about is not Multiculturalism, so please stop claiming it is (as its on par with the miss-use that the likes of the Daily Mail use).
Multiculturalism is great as long as we recognise it's on a continuum, that ranging from intolerant to overly tolerant. We have been overly tolerant for too long.

Scaff
Links not working for me.
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...-better-america-europe-islamic-yet-integrated

Yeah, well, the British approach to multiculturalism (collective rights having the priority over individual rights) has failed. So has the French one (which is not that dissimilar to the British one, but puts the strong prerogatives of the State above collective rights). And let it be very clear - for me the law is the law, and it should be applied to any "community" regardless of their ethnicity and religion. But I simply believe that within the frame of just, non-discriminatory law, and with a radical action to fight social exclusion in any form, coexistence of different cultures is entirely possible.
Who said it isn't possible?
 
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I didn't want to come off as insulting. I was simply trying to underline how historical maps are quite insignificant. To provide further context: there has been an attempt, in the 20-40s, to set the clock back to 117 CE. The man behind this attempt was one Benito Mussolini. He was the kind of man who sent his thirty tanks to parade in Naples one day, then had them loaded on a special train and got them delivered to Rome, where they paraded again... And ended up believing he had sixty tanks (now, this is an old joke that I think is false, but that fits the character well).

To cut to the cheese, he got his ass handed by France, Greece, and managed to get 20,000 men killed in Ethiopia, against an army commanded by Rastafari Jesus. Italy lost WWII in 1943, setting what must be some sort of record in the process, and he ended up hanging upside down with more holes in his body than a colander. And if it wasn't for the Marshall Plan's aids, we'd still be a smoldering ruin.

Likewise, the ISIS can demand world domination as much as they want and threat people that don't conform to their logic as much as much as they want. I am not ignoring their motivations, I am however considering their numbers and offensive capabilities (which are laughable - they got 20,000 militiamen armed with old Kalashnikov and some stolen artillery piece for which they can't produce munitions; most of them are in it only for the money).

It'd be like being worried for North Korea's incessant threats (which by the way haven't stopped - we're simply ignoring them because we now got a bigger boogeyman to keep us awake at night). They can talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk, not one step of it, without getting bombed back to the Bronze Age.

You, sir have missed my point entirely.

The historical context that I was trying to present here was that at one time the Muslims did conquer parts of Europe with a sword. Have you ever heard of the term Carrot on a stick? It is a term used to describe old time rabbit traps where you bait the rabbit with a little food and once they are in the trap, you take it away. The Muslims today are using that tactic to disrupt parts of Europe under the term Multiculturalism. The radicals are waiting in Syria and Iraq just jumping at the chance to invade Europe proper (my conclusion), but they are willing to give this tactic a try, and by all means, if the flow of radicals from Europe to ISIS is of any indication, it appears to be working.
 
The radicals are waiting in Syria and Iraq just jumping at the chance to invade Europe proper (my conclusion), but they are willing to give this tactic a try, and by all means, if the flow of radicals from Europe to ISIS is of any indication, it appears to be working.

And to me it seems that the fact that they've managed to recruit at best a couple thousand foreign fighters - many of them were executed when they asked if they could please go back home - isn't that significant, at the end of the day. After all, they are a couple thousand people out of a population of 57 million muslims in Europe. To draw again a comparison, there are 2500 known member of the Italian party Forza Nuova (the Italian population has similar numbers). Said party is openly neofascist, but I wouldn't say there's much of a threat to democracy in Italy posed by them.

But your problems seems to be with all muslims and with the idea of multiculturalism, not with the possibility of the ISIL providing a couple thousand MurderMuslims™ guns to shoot at Yazidis and Kurds and Egyptian Christians while directing empty threats at us. You are basically advocating that all muslims in Europe are part of a grand plan to destabilize Europe. In which case, I must advise you that I was not missing your point, I was giving you the benefit of doubt.

In the meanwhile, you can sleep soundly, for Europe is safe from the threat you depict, just as it is from the threat of Nazis hiding on the dark side of the Moon.
 
Read the link I posted about Birmingham, or any news story about Rotherham.

And for God's sake, look how we are treating that kid in the Chelsea racism storm, which is actually a reflection on society at large but such an attitude comes from unequal distribution of law (please look at the story of a child abuse victim of a sex gang verbally abusing her attacker and receiving police vans as a proportionate response)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...user-street-SHE-arrested-van-load-police.html
What makes you think I'm not already more than aware of these stories and the circumstances behind them?

They show that people carry out abuse and idiots (for totally misguided reasons) failed to correctly address the issues, as such all parties involved in that should be held to account as required by the law.

I don't see however how this shows that its a cultural norm for all Pakistanis or Muslims.




I said higher birth rates than the indigenous



A quote from the Equality and Human Rights Commission:

"Family size among foreign-
born populations is higher
than the UK-born population.
Proportionally more households have three
or more children, and the Afghanistan,
Bangladesh, Pakistan and Somalia-born popul
ation have the highest proportion of
families with five or more children. For ex
ample, some 10.8 per
cent of Somalia-born
households have five or more children, comp
ared with just 0.3 per
cent of the UK-
born population. These groups
are overwhelmingly housed in
the rental sector, in
social housing or in privat
e rental accommodation, as
many of those with larger
families and lower incomes may be unable to
afford to purchase suitable property."


http://www.ippr.org/assets/media/ec...sing_allocation_and_immigrant_communities.pdf
Great, and the point of that is?

Regardless of them having more children that the UK average (a point that is true of a number of groups in the UK - both non-Eu migrant and UK resident) that still doesn't entitle them to more than a UK resident in the same circumstances would have. In point of fact they are still disadvantaged in comparison to UK citizens with the same number of children.

So once again I ask, why is this significant.




You're right, they picked up their stellar attitude to women and girls from Britain, silly me. Dude, even the Pakistani women I work with on shifts in hospital freely admit "You know what they're like"

Let's see what happens when we look at purely Asians in Britain?
Hindu grooming gangs in Britain - Nope
Sikh grooming gangs in Britain - Nope, in fact they are quite the target for muslims since they have an honour code stifling reporting of sexual violence.
How about my country: Tamil or Sinhalese grooming gangs - Nope
Nepalese grooming gangs - Nope

Let's add those two muslim dominated countries into the equation - Pakistan and Bangladesh.

"Hey you might be on to something there KSaiyu"

You can also see why a few Asians have a problem with the media's insistence on calling them "Asian grooming gangs". We are well aware we are included only to avoid calling them for what they are.
Are you seriously attempting to claim that other Asian groups do not encounter these kinds of attitudes towards women?

Were that not so offensively inaccurate (on both a factual and anecdotal basis) it would be laughable. Firstly the attitudes towards women by all groups within India is both well documented and troubling to say the least, secondly my families own experience with a group of Catholic Goans resulted in police action and a number being placed on the sex offenders register.




But sure, bleat on about how this isn't a cultural/religious problem and we are all racist.
Given that I've said neither of these things I would caution you about both the attitude and putting words in my mouth.

I've said that this is not as simple as just being a cultural/religious problem and that it affects all cultural and religious groups in terms of both victims and offenders. I've not referred to you as racist, nor have I come close to implying that.


I'd advise you stay away from the north of England or places around my area, just as a friendly warning.
So now I get warnings?

Given that I travel to the north of England on a regular basis, as well as 'places around your area' with work and that my wife's family is from the Indian/Asian community I will treat your warning as the thinly veiled laughable nonsense that it is.


I would look up Islams long and troubled history with slavery, in particular sex slavery before bringing in the Catholics.
I'm more than aware of its history of sex slavery, but given that Christian countries have not had that different a track record, and that the biggest contemporary issues in this regard come from what are predominantly Christian countries - Russia and the former Eastern Bloc, I don't think that any faith has a moral card to play here (least of all the Catholics - given that they used single mothers as slave labour within living memory). Not to mention the death and mass burial (in a waste tank) of at least 300 babies in only one of these cases)



With the situation as it is now in Britain it is nowhere near the same scale, although if you have statistics to the contrary then by all means. Saying that, recent Popes have been making inroads into tackling predatory clergy though not anywhere near to a satisfactory level for me.
Now quite apart from the fact that the UN investigations in Catholic abuse quite clearly disagree with your claim that recent Popes have made inroads at all in this, the scale of abuse is almost certainly more widespread, of a larger scale and has been systematically covered up (and those doing so continue to block investigations) to the highest level.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/child-abuse-and-the-catholic-chu1.html
http://www.markfulton.org/child-abuse-in-the-catholic-church



Who applies it to every member of the community. All I'm suggesting is you identify a trend and recognise it. Would you say all Catholic priests are kiddy fiddlers?
Who's applying it to every member of a community? Well given that you are infering it to be a cultural norm for Pakistanis that would be you. I on the hand have consistently said that's not the case.


Multiculturalism is great as long as we recognise it's on a continuum, that ranging from intolerant to overly tolerant. We have been overly tolerant for too long.
That's not multiculturalism.


I've tried two phones, a tablet and two laptops, all I get is a French 'this domain has expired' redirect.

The Muslims today are using that tactic to disrupt parts of Europe under the term Multiculturalism.
What all of them!!!!!!!!!

Oh noes, they must all be about to multiculturally murder us in our sleep.

Do you honestly not see how utterly inane a blanket statement like that is?
 
What makes you think I'm not already more than aware of these stories and the circumstances behind them?

They show that people carry out abuse and idiots (for totally misguided reasons) failed to correctly address the issues, as such all parties involved in that should be held to account as required by the law.

I don't see however how this shows that its a cultural norm for all Pakistanis or Muslims.
Huh? You asked:

The claim you made was that they are treated better in law, a claim that you have not been able to support


Scaff
Great, and the point of that is?

Regardless of them having more children that the UK average (a point that is true of a number of groups in the UK - both non-Eu migrant and UK resident) that still doesn't entitle them to more than a UK resident in the same circumstances would have. In point of fact they are still disadvantaged in comparison to UK citizens with the same number of children.

So once again I ask, why is this significant.
Lost me again. You asked for proof to back up my point, I provided and you ask why this is significant? Let's trace this back to my original statement:

Benefits are given with no expectation of a payback to society at large (think the Somali population in my area) and they are free to have as many children as they like (which is considerable in comparison to the indigenous population).

Scaff
Are you seriously attempting to claim that other Asian groups do not encounter these kinds of attitudes towards women?

Were that not so offensively inaccurate (on both a factual and anecdotal basis) it would be laughable.

Quote me as saying it is not as bad as Pakistani and Bangladeshi attitudes. I've dealt with both, inside and outside my family and I can categorically say it is worse. Again I ask: WHERE are the sex gangs of other Asian descent?

Frankly I find your approach archaic and offensive. I go next week to a meeting exploring Bangladeshi integration and muslim culture in East London hosted by Bangladeshis and one of the topics talked about will be dealing with
"overly friendly cousins".
They can admit they have a problem, Pakistanis can admit they have a problem yet you seem hell bent on denying this is the case and falsely equating the terrible rights of women in Asian communities with the much worse treatment of a wider population of girls in Pakistani/Bangladeshi areas of influence.

Scaff
Given that I've said neither of these things I would caution you about both the attitude and putting words in my mouth.

I've said that this is not as simple as just being a cultural/religious problem and that it affects all cultural and religious groups in terms of both victims and offenders. I've not referred to you as racist, nor have I come close to implying that.
No I want to see the offenders who aren't from these communities please before you say this affects all groups equally.

Scaff
So now I get warnings?

Given that I travel to the north of England on a regular basis, as well as 'places around your area' with work and that my wife's family is from the Indian/Asian community I will treat your warning as the thinly veiled laughable nonsense that it is.
Good luck saying such words in the UKIP/far right strongholds of Bradford or any other areas these victims are. Just a friendly warning is all.

Scaff
I'm more than aware of its history of sex slavery, but given that Christian countries have not had that different a track record
Wait, what? You are really comparing Islam with the faith that was behind key members of the abolitionist movement? Really? When did Saudi Arabia ban slavery?

Scaff
and that the biggest contemporary issues in this regard come from what are predominantly Christian countries - Russia and the former Eastern Bloc, I don't think that any faith has a moral card to play here (least of all the Catholics - given that they used single mothers as slave labour within living memory). Not to mention the death and mass burial (in a waste tank) of at least 300 babies in only one of these cases)
I'm sorry, are we forgetting the quasi slavery in effect in several mid-east countries (think the uproar about Qatar's migrants)?

Slavery is still an issue, but saying the "biggest contemporary issues" are from Christian countries is a little odd.

Scaff
Now quite apart from the fact that the UN investigations in Catholic abuse quite clearly disagree with your claim that recent Popes have made inroads at all in this, the scale of abuse is almost certainly more widespread, of a larger scale and has been systematically covered up (and those doing so continue to block investigations) to the highest level.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/child-abuse-and-the-catholic-chu1.html
http://www.markfulton.org/child-abuse-in-the-catholic-church
From the second of your links:

Whether the percentage of Catholic priests who abuse children and youths is much greater than for other Christian and non-Christian religious leaders (such as gurus, imams, ministers, pastors or rabbis) is unclear, as no reliable data exists about these groups. It’s also difficult to find consistent reliable statistics as to what percentage of adult males in the general population sexually abuse children.


So what I'm getting is the Catholics are, starting with their CEO the Pope acknowledging there is a problem and working (not fast enough we both agree) to minimise it? Could this be a symptom of transparency since there is a greater awareness of Catholic abuse (as your source points out, we have no idea if gurus are just as paedophillic as priests).

Scaff
Who's applying it to every member of a community? Well given that you are infering it to be a cultural norm for Pakistanis that would be you. I on the hand have consistently said that's not the case.
I'm saying it's the cultural norm for them to treat women worse, sexually than any of the other Asian immigrants to the UK. It seemed you were insinuating that I therefore believed all Pakistani men treated women in such a way, but if I misread that then I apologise.

Scaff
That's not multiculturalism.
Is there some OED definition I have to quote?

Scaff
I've tried two phones, a tablet and two laptops, all I get is a French 'this domain has expired' redirect.
I can't really help since the link appears to be on a timer before it becomes inactive. All I can suggest is googling The Economist article. The opening lines are:

The Economist
THE State Department estimates that up to 100 American jihadists are fighting in Iraq and Syria. A video appearing to show a second American journalist being beheaded by the Islamic State is circulating. You might think this would be a difficult time to hold the annual conference of America’s largest Muslim organisation.

Yet the Islamic Society of North America’s gathering, which took place in Detroit over the Labour Day weekend, served as a reminder of how well America is assimilating a religious minority that has often struggled to feel at home in Europe.
 
No, the worst case scenario is ISIS invades Europe, then dominates Europe and branches out from there to invade the Americas and the rest of Asia, followed by world domination.

That doesn't mean it's a remotely possible scenario. ISIS has no way to stage an amphibious landing in Italy, and would get utterly routed the second they engaged the Turkish, Saudi, or Iranian militaries. Any attack on Turkey is an attack on NATO which means the USS George H. W. Bush stationed in the Persian Gulf would be free to unleash its aircraft. It's seriously not a threat at all.

You also forgot to mention that the Avengers would assemble from there...well the b-team, since the A-team would be fighting a real effort in space or something.'

I'm sounding ominous so I'll make a suggestion. America doesn't have nearly the same problem with homegrown jihadis or muslim integration as we do over here, and it's all to do with their attitude to immigrants. If we could learn to stop babying everyone coming here with a sob story we'd all be better for it in the long run.


Really then explain Cubans coming on 1950 Chevy and getting to stay (which may soon end) as long as they don't get seen by Coast Guards. Or the mass of illegals that still make it here from the border and live (though with some fear) in the states get a job. The real gem of why the U.S. has less issue is due to the mass data harvesting and readily use of government police task forces to stop something before it really is something.

I would reckon that sane people wouldn't allow people
to drown, which shouldn't be the bloody point to this conversation! The point should be is when ISIS would man up and try to invade Italy for Muslim conquest, would the Italians would have the guts to actually fight them during the invasion. Remember this map people:

View attachment 314640

That is actually coming if the world doesn't stop ISIS now!

Some of you people make me see why Fox News is alive and kicking, cause you eat up the idea that the proverbial 🤬 is always about to hit the fan, cause you've see the "news". Though History dictates a far different and more difficult scenario of getting to the point if ever.
 
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