The war on ISIS.

[prisonermonkeys]

No, because they weren't chemical weapons. They had degraded to the point where they had lost their toxicity.

It's a bit like the police raiding a high school because the science labs contain chemicals that can be used to make methamphetamine.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Behind every conflict in midlle east and africa is only one word.
CIA.

Citation required, obviously. And an actual word, CIA is not a word but a TLA*.

*Three Letter Acronym.

 

[giorgos21]

Citation required, obviously. And an actual word, CIA is not a word but a TLA*.

*Three Letter Acronym.

Wow.. Thanks for the English lesson.

 

[Akira AC]

To be honest, the CIA might be involved on that, either by financial support or training.

It has happened in the past, specially considering United States occupation of the Dominican Republic, Indonesian killings of 1965–1966,Vietnam War, Chilean coup d'état, Operation Condor, Six Day War, War of Attrition, Yom Kippur War, Ogaden War, Angolan Civil War and Indonesian invasion of East Timor, I would assert that yeah, CIA is there, supporting whoever is the most convenient winner, is something they need to do, either to protect local interests or any other kind of resource that might be advantageous there.

Support is not obvious though, there is no clear "good guy/bad guy" but everyone has an agenda, same for Ukraine and the war on Georgia a few years back. The Soviet Union might be gone but Russia protects their global interests, same for the US. Not to mention CIA support for one of the factions in the Syria civil war.

 

[BobK]

No, because they weren't chemical weapons. They had degraded to the point where they had lost their toxicity.

It's a bit like the police raiding a high school because the science labs contain chemicals that can be used to make methamphetamine.

Sol you're saying that

chances are that while they were Weapons of Mass Destruction once upon a time

and now you say they aren't any more. No argument there, but sheesh, that's why I said "change 'do' to 'did'". Or, if I really must spell it out:

So wait a minute -- those chemical weapons that everybody insisted didn't exist as part of the GWB crucifixion really did exist after all?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So wait a minute -- those chemical weapons that everybody insisted didn't exist as part of the GWB crucifixion really did exist after all?

And allow me to spell this out: no, they did no exist as chemical weapons when Bush invaded. They were chemical weapons once upon a time, but they would have lost their toxicity by the time of the invasion. They weren't chemical weapons - just chemicals. If you think back, in the time between Hussein bombing Kurdistan in 1988 and the March 2003 invasion, there was a constant battle between Hussein and the UN weapons inspectors led by Hans Blix to try and shut down Iraq's chemical weapons programme. Any stocks that were found would have been put into storage, allowed to degrade, and scheduled for destruction. These particular chemical weapons would have been a part of that batch, and the Americans would have been informed about it at the time. So when March 2003 came around and Bush insisted that Iraq had chemical weapons, he would have known that these supplies were not weapons because they could no longer be used as weapons.

What do you not understand about this?

 

[TenEightyOne]

So wait a minute -- those chemical weapons that everybody insisted didn't exist as part of the GWB crucifixion really did exist after all?

They weren't viable by that time, if you examine the evidence dossier used to persuade the countries to go to war (which itself was downloaded from an academic site before the name of the author was changed) then you can see from the edits that the information was "sexed-up". Only the US/UK themselves claimed that any still existed, iirc. Even Hans Blix was saying no.

I think Blair/Bush's combined desperation to be in Iraq was demonstrated once it was obvious that there were not WMDs; they started claiming that Saddam was friendly towards Al-Qaueeeda... his actual publicly-sworn enemy.

Smoke, mirrors, stolen dossiers and bullpoop

 

[Carbonox]

I know there probably aren't many people on GTP advocating ISIS' actions, but just in case...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434

 

[KSaiyu]

Doesn't fit the victim complex. Only took 6 pages to blame the West and....the CIA.

 

[Swagger897]

Soo Obama ordered air strikes on ISIS as per PR..?

 

[Dotini]

Last I heard on PBS was US humanitarian airdrops for Yazidis, and Obama considering airstrikes on ISIS. Earlier Obama was seen outside the White House talking in "animated fashion" with his chief of staff. It looked to me like he was shouting and waving his arms.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Last I heard on PBS was US humanitarian airdrops for Yazidis, and Obama considering airstrikes on ISIS. Earlier Obama was seen outside the White House talking in "animated fashion" with his chief of staff. It looked to me like he was shouting and waving his arms.

That's being extended to airstrikes to "defend American interests and prevent religious slaughter".

 

[mister dog]

About time, you can't let this go out of hand so that IS brings the whole of Iraq back to the middle ages.
America created the power vacuum getting rid of Saddam, so it's only fair they go back and help if the country is overrun by extremists only a couple of years afterwards.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Not long after the FAA advises US airlines to avoid Iraqi airspace the UK's Civil Aviation Authority gives the same advise to British carriers.

@Dotini, that piece of evidence might be important in a couple of weeks when we're trying to work out what happened to MH217, the weekly Kuala Lumpur/Baghdad flight.

 

[Carbonox]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28709530

Yeah, it's on now.

 

[Dotini]

In the zeal to oust Assad by financing, arming and training Sunni rebels, the wind has been sown in Syria and the whirlwind reaped in Iraq.

I pity those poor Kurdish Yazidis. The is a very interesting ancient religion, older than Christianity and Islam, related to Zoroastrianism.

 

[TenEightyOne]

In the zeal to oust Assad by financing, arming and training Sunni rebels, the wind has been sown in Syria and the whirlwind reaped in Iraq.

I pity those poor Kurdish Yazidis. The is a very interesting ancient religion, older than Christianity and Islam, related to Zoroastrianism.

I love that bit of music, and I found the same Wiki page quite educational

Also Sprach Zarathustra, on-topic and always worth a listen

 

[KSaiyu]

500 dead is the estimate so far, with more being taken as slaves.

 

[Omnis]

This next election should be interesting.

Screw these ISIS guys though. I hope Obama Obombs the crap out of them. You'd think that perhaps the region could maybe work together and unite peacefully to put the hurt on these bastards. You'd think Obama would stop passing out arms in Syria and end the foreign aid to all these idiot countries. Keep the jihad suppressed or no cash for you.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Screw these ISIS guys though.

They're now just called "IS", or "Islamic State". The other day the BBC referred to them as "the organisation formerly known as ISIS". I couldn't help but wonder how long it would be before they were just represented by a symbol. Maybe in the shape of a crater.

 

[Carbonox]

*decades later*

"And that, kids, is how the Northern Iraq Lake was formed."

 

[Akira AC]

"Oh look, 'Merica bombing ISIS, how significant!"

I guess no one wants to point out that deposing Saddam caused all this, and ended up in a worse outcome (considering Saddam policies, this outcome is actually worse). I could be very superficial about this, but Al-Qaeda wouldn't have so much influx of militants due to collateral damage caused by incursions in both Iraq and Afghanistan, instead of just limiting themselves to Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda.

 

[mister dog]

"Oh look, 'Merica bombing ISIS, how significant!"

I guess no one wants to point out that deposing Saddam caused all this, and ended up in a worse outcome (considering Saddam policies, this outcome is actually worse). I could be very superficial about this, but Al-Qaeda wouldn't have so much influx of militants due to collateral damage caused by incursions in both Iraq and Afghanistan, instead of just limiting themselves to Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda.

I agree, the mess is there though and i appreciate the fact the Americans use their military for a good cause this time.

 

[JMoney]

"Oh look, 'Merica bombing ISIS, how significant!"

I guess no one wants to point out that deposing Saddam caused all this, and ended up in a worse outcome (considering Saddam policies, this outcome is actually worse). I could be very superficial about this, but Al-Qaeda wouldn't have so much influx of militants due to collateral damage caused by incursions in both Iraq and Afghanistan, instead of just limiting themselves to Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda.

I'm sure Al-Qaeda wouldn't have limited themselves to just Afghanistan.

There is more cause for U.S. involvement then there has been for either of the last two Iraq wars, or Syria. If ISIS isn't stopped, then every NATO soldier who died following the 2003 invasion died in vain.

I hate to say it because we are 17 trillion in debt, but I think we should start a full-scale ground war against ISIS. They are organized more conventionally than your average guerilla terror fighters so they should be easier to stop. If we focus on taking out their forces the war may only last a few months. Plus, the U.S. looks very weak to the world right now, and a war could help our image and restore our influence in the Middle-East.

 

[Omnis]

What's happening now is exactly what Michael Scheuer wrote about in his books.

 

[Dotini]

There is more cause for U.S. involvement then there has been for either of the last two Iraq wars, or Syria. If ISIS isn't stopped, then every NATO soldier who died following the 2003 invasion died in vain.

I hate to say it because we are 17 trillion in debt, but I think we should start a full-scale ground war against ISIS. They are organized more conventionally than your average guerilla terror fighters so they should be easier to stop. If we focus on taking out their forces the war may only last a few months. Plus, the U.S. looks very weak to the world right now, and a war could help our image and restore our influence in the Middle-East.

I respectfully disagree, for a number of reasons. Here's just a sample:

If we go to war with ISIS, we go to war with the Sunni, who are the overwhelming majority of the middle east, and are supported by our allies Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. One of the reasons ISIS is so strong now, is that they have subsumed the support of secular Ba'athists and former Republican Guards. The reason these educated elites have resorted to ISIS is that they have been excluded by the Shiite al-Maliki from leadership positions in the Iraqi government and army. We could do much to defeat ISIS by giving these secularists more attractive opportunities in a unified Iraq.

If we go to war with the Sunni ISIS, we are in effect supporting the creation of an independent, militant Kurdistan. This will cause a whole new chain of problems for the region.

To effectively wage war against ISIS, we must have boots on the ground in Syria, not just Iraq.

The overall thrust of US policy since the early 90's has been to reduce stability and sow chaos. To further break up Iraq, Syria, and maybe even portions of Turkey and Armenia will only cause more instability and chaos.

A better plan to defeat ISIS might consist of shoring up support for Assad in Syria, deposing al-Maliki in Iraq, and clamping down on the funnel of money, weapons and men streaming in from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and beyond.

 

[Touring Mars]

deposing al-Maliki in Iraq

That may have already happened...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ikes-help-kurds-retake-territory-live-updates

 

[mister dog]

Just google imaged some of the atrocities IS (ISIS, whatever) are committing in Iraq and Syria. Next to the many pictures of men getting executed and decapitated, I saw pictures of decapitated children and these nutcases cutting the throats of captured women they stripped naked like they are goats, which really made me angry.

I sincerely hope they all get blown to smithereens by American rockets ASAP, so they can report back to the devil for their barbaric acts of gruesome violence committed in the name of God.

 

[Dotini]

Just google imaged some of the atrocities IS (ISIS, whatever) are committing in Iraq and Syria. Next to the many pictures of men getting executed and decapitated, I saw pictures of decapitated children and these nutcases cutting the throats of captured women they stripped naked like they are goats, which really made me angry.

I sincerely hope they all get blown to smithereens by American rockets ASAP, so they can report back to the devil for their barbaric acts of gruesome violence committed in the name of God.

At an emotional level I completely agree. Especially, my heart goes out to all those innocent people like the Yazidis who are reportedly buried alive by the hundreds merely for the sin of heresy. (Yazidi religion predates Islam by a thousand years or more).

On the other hand, the Kurds will need some military assistance to fend off the US heavy weapons ISIS is using to threaten Erbil, where numbers of Americans are stationed. Until Kurds get better weapons, artillery threatening Erbil must be neutralized by someone.

According to a recent article by the NY Times, Mr. Baghdadi who established and runs ISIS, surrounds himself with Ba'athists, Republican Guards and former members of Saddam Hussein's intelligence establishment. These are the former educated elite of Iraqi society, not religious nutcases, and some of them are secularists.

So it seems to me the weakest point of ISIS is its unlikely combination of religious zealots and secularists. My strategy would be to split them, cut off their money, men and weapons supply. This may be possible without too much bombing. I don't want the US getting involved in another expensive, open-ended, and ultimately unwinnable war.

 

[Carbonox]

Just google imaged some of the atrocities IS (ISIS, whatever) are committing in Iraq and Syria. Next to the many pictures of men getting executed and decapitated, I saw pictures of decapitated children and these nutcases cutting the throats of captured women they stripped naked like they are goats, which really made me angry.

I sincerely hope they all get blown to smithereens by American rockets ASAP, so they can report back to the devil for their barbaric acts of gruesome violence committed in the name of God.