The "war on police" in America

[FoolKiller]

But at the same time they're considered one of Americas most trusted news network.

That's a slogan. According to McDonald's we're "Lovin' it."

 

[Johnnypenso]

People who generally complain don't want police dead, eliminated, or think they are all racist pigs. Ferguson is not the norm.

That's a slogan. According to McDonald's we're "Lovin' it."

Nope, it's based on polling data.

 

[lancia delta hf]

I'd say that has far more to do with the child's upbringing than anything else. I can recall when I was younger and being fascinated with police, I'd run up to them and talk to them ad I can't recall a single one that was even the least bit disrespectful.

Fast forward to today, well last night actually. I was in a gas station in full uniform and two younger children ran up to me and hugged both of my legs. I looked down and smiled and they just said "thank you for protecting us." From what I'm reading in this thread that shouldn't happen, or at least it shouldn't be the norm. I certainly disagree with that though, I have far more people thank me, shake my hand or hug me (plenty of them are kids) while I'm in uniform than I have people who go out of their way to disrespect me and my career.

In fact I've actually had conversations with people who I hear telling their kids to stay away from me because I'm a racist "pig." I know for a fact that isn't helping the kid in any way, shape or form and I'd wager that conversations like that are why I constantly hear "you're only arresting me because I'm black!" after I witness someone break the law and I cuff them.

I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I really don't care to. I deal with ignorant people on a daily basis, people who hate me simply because of my job while they claim I hate them because of their race. Fortunately those people aren't even close to the majority, they are generally the people that constantly have run ins with the law and instead of evaluating and changing their life, they assume that we "pigs" are racist and continue to break the law. The majority of people stop me and thank me, they talk to me, shake my hand or hug me. Having one person say "thanks for your service" effects me way more than 10 thugs calling me a pig.

I would like to suggest that you all try and go for a ride along with your local police department. There are many things that Officer's do that are strange or make no sense to a civilian, a ride along would go a long way in not only explaining why those things are done, but showing exactly why they are done like that. It would also give someone a great chance to see exactly the sort of people we regularly deal with as well as give some insight to use of force incidents and policies.

My 13 year old nephew was invited down to the local police department a couple months ago because he won a brave citizen award and was allowed to bring along 2 friends. They were arrested and put in the cells (only for 20 minutes the cissies) and all that good stuff, They loved it and now want a cereer in the police force.

Me on the other hand have had some experiences with the police that have not impressed me, The atitude and the feeling of power they portray just makes me think what a @##@, But on the whole most have been pleasant over my life time.

I always, even when drunk or have gotten myself in trouble. Have always been respectfull and polite because one of my best friends brother is a cop in a much bigger city (Birmingham) and the crap he has to put up with on a daily basis just leaves me to ask "why would anyone want to be a cop". I have seen him so miserable at times because of his job and the people he has to deal with.

Its almost a thankless job

 

[Johnnypenso]

My 13 year old nephew was invited down to the local police department a couple months ago because he won a brave citizen award and was allowed to bring along 2 friends. They were arrested and put in the cells (only for 20 minutes the cissies) and all that good stuff, They loved it and now want a cereer in the police force.

Me on the other hand have had some experiences with the police that have not impressed me, The atitude and the feeling of power they portray just makes me think what a @##@, But on the whole most have been pleasant over my life time.

I always, even when drunk or have gotten myself in trouble. Have always been respectfull and polite because one of my best friends brother is a cop in a much bigger city (Birmingham) and the crap he has to put up with on a daily basis just leaves me to ask "why would anyone want to be a cop". I have seen him so miserable at times because of his job and the people he has to deal with.

Its almost a thankless job

So your nephew and his friends spent some time with cops and didn't get shot or tazed or perhaps in your case, beaten with a billy club. I'd call that a win.

 

[FoolKiller]

Nope, it's based on polling data.

View attachment 333579

Cold call polls have certain issues. The sample is self-selecting as to who will answer and who stays on the line when they hear what the poll is about.

I also dislike that we can somehow claim a sample of 1280 is representative of hundreds of millions of people.

All that said, they do have the highest ratings, and that is all that really matters to them.



But trust me, if you hear the same news stories reported from 50 different places you will realize no one got all the facts right. Each version is slightly different.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Cold call polls have certain issues. The sample is self-selecting as to who will answer and who stays on the line when they hear what the poll is about.

I also dislike that we can somehow claim a sample of 1280 is representative of hundreds of millions of people.

All that said, they do have the highest ratings, and that is all that really matters to them.

But trust me, if you hear the same news stories reported from 50 different places you will realize no one got all the facts right. Each version is slightly different.

That's kind of how polls work and so long as the polling is random, the results can be applied to the population as a whole. The poll was done more than once by more than one organization and Fox always seems to come out on top. And remember, they're talking about the news on Fox, not Fox as a whole or the opinion related stuff, just the raw news.

 

[FoolKiller]

That's kind of how polls work and so long as the polling is random, the results can be applied to the population as a whole. The poll was done more than once by more than one organization and Fox always seems to come out on top.

They have higher ratings, so it will lead to that conclusion. I'm just not sure why.

And remember, they're talking about the news on Fox, not Fox as a whole or the opinion related stuff, just the raw news.

1) Do the respondents distinguish between the two hours in the middle of the day with Shephard Smith and the other 22 hours of programming? 2) "Raw news" is an accurate term for media today. Unvetted, unprepared, not fact checked, purely raw "we just read on Twitter" news is the style of the day.

When I first started my telecommunications degree at UK I wanted to get into production at a news agency. During my time there 9/11 happened, the 24-hour news cycle and the "more news now" mentality were born, and I am now ashamed that some of the people responsible for news media today were people I was wanting to call my colleagues.

But this is drifting off topic, other than to point out that news creates a lot of misconceptions. Police claim more violence as their need for military grade weapons, quicker decisions to use lethal force, and to grow their budgets. The media paints violent crime as an increasing problem, despite all data saying otherwise. Similarly, police have every move questioned and the media reports a lot of rumor. In the media's defense, their job is to be watchdog of the government. They should question every case of lethal force. They should not rush to be the first to report on the incident without first vetting the information they are receiving.


I know I can sometimes seem as if I am hating on police, but I see new stories of lethal force everyday and don't say anything because there is no video for me to make my own judgment on and not enough is known. That said, you throw a flash bang in a crib or shoot a sleeping girl as you walk in the door and I will condemn you on the spot. No matter your excuse, that shows inadequate information. They don't know what they are walking into, and sometimes it isn't an innocent child put at risk but the officers themselves.

 

[lancia delta hf]

So your nephew and his friends spent some time with cops and didn't get shot or tazed or perhaps in your case, beaten with a billy club. I'd call that a win.

Well they did do some time for good behaviour, That sounds like profiling or something, Police brutality.

 

[WhiterunGuard]

Um, can I chime in here and just say that I know, or have at least met, most of the police officers in my area and all of them except for maybe two or three are of the nice variety that are respectful, humble and still do a good job of enforcing the law...without unnecessary tickets....the other two or three...well just go seven or eight miles an hour under the speed limit and you'll probably be fine.

 

[Swagger897]

the other two or three...well just go seven or eight miles an hour under the speed limit and you'll probably be fine.

Why under?

Technically speaking, you are not allowed to be driving the limit anyways unless sky conditions are scattered or less, the road is dry, and the time is an hour after dawn and an hour before dusk... Or whatever the "perfect" road conditions are for the officer on duty..

Why some people think that you are "allowed" to speed over limits is beyond me.. In Georgia, you have a nine (9) mile per hour gap before you are given a point on your license, but you can still have a monetary fine to pay...

 

[FoolKiller]

Why some people think that you are "allowed" to speed over limits is beyond me..

That's what Waze is for.

 

[WhiterunGuard]

Why under?

Because those few are a wee bit ticket happy....

 

[Swagger897]

That's what Waze is for.

I've never particularly liked this app from the start. And after last months cop killer who targeted two cops, this just helps his and everyone else's efforts just that much more..
I avoid speeding in front of police too, but not with an app that targets them, and distracts me while driving.. Two things which should be illegal.

Because those few are a wee bit ticket happy....

yeah well... I've had my experience too...

 

[squadops]

I've never particularly liked this app from the start. And after last months cop killer who targeted two cops, this just helps his and everyone else's efforts just that much more..

Helps him find targets? It's not hard to find police in a city, or do you mean helps him avoid capture? I'm not sure how true that is, when the authorities want someone they do a pretty darn good job at finding them.

Everyone else's efforts, well if people are alerted to a possible speed trap they will slow down right? Isn't that the point of a speed trap, to slow people down? The only difference being loss of revenue so, it's not good enough civilians pay for the service through taxes then.

From the DOJ Civil Rights Division Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department.

...in March 2013, the Finance Director wrote to the City Manager: “Court fees are anticipated to rise about 7.5%. I did ask the Chief if he thought the PD could deliver 10% increase. He indicated they could try.” The importance of focusing on revenue generation is communicated to FPD officers. Ferguson police officers from all ranks told us that revenue generation is stressed heavily within the police department, and that the message comes from City leadership. The evidence we reviewed supports this perception.

The City’s emphasis on revenue generation has a profound effect on FPD’s approach to law enforcement. Patrol assignments and schedules are geared toward aggressive enforcement of Ferguson’s municipal code, with insufficient thought given to whether enforcement strategies promote public safety or unnecessarily undermine community trust and cooperation. Officer evaluations and promotions depend to an inordinate degree on “productivity,” meaning the number of citations issued. Partly as a consequence of City and FPD priorities, many officers appear to see some residents, especially those who live in Ferguson’s predominantly AfricanAmerican neighborhoods, less as constituents to be protected than as potential offenders and sources of revenue.

It goes on and on but I think you get the point, safety or money, you decide.

I avoid speeding in front of police too, but not with an app that targets them, and distracts me while driving.. Two things which should be illegal.

I'm not seeing the problem with using an app, people are being safer and not speeding right? Under what law should it be illegal to use an app that reminds you to slow down?

Almost every state has general laws against distracted driving, they used to be loose laws and enforced by a policeman's discretion and a judges, you guessed it, judgment. Now we need to have a law for every possibility, you can brush your hair but you cannot eat a burger, things of that nature which are unnecessary.



Here is the entire report in pdf format, it is very much worth a read and every word in it directly relates to this thread 👍

http://www.justice.gov/sites/defaul...5/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

FPD’s approach to law enforcement has led officers to conduct stops and arrests that violate the Constitution. We identified several elements to this pattern of misconduct. Frequently, officers stop people without reasonable suspicion or arrest them without probable cause. Officers rely heavily on the municipal “Failure to Comply” charge, which appears to be facially unconstitutional in part, and is frequently abused in practice. FPD also relies on a System of officer-generated arrest orders called “wanteds” that circumvents the warrant system and poses a significant risk of abuse. The data show, moreover, that FPD misconduct in the area of stops and arrests disproportionately impacts African Americans.

The Fourth Amendment protects individuals from unreasonable searches and seizures. Generally, a search or seizure is unreasonable “in the absence of individualized suspicion of wrongdoing.” City of Indianapolis v. Edmond, 531 U.S. 32, 37 (2000). The Fourth Amendment permits law enforcement officers to briefly detain individuals for investigative purposes if the officers possess reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot.

Under Missouri law, when making an arrest, “[t]he officer must inform the defendant by what authority he acts, and must also show the warrant if required.” Mo. Rev. Stat. § 544.180. In reviewing FPD records, we found numerous incidents in which—based on the officer’s own Description of the detention—an officer detained an individual without articulable reasonable suspicion of criminal activity or arrested a person without probable cause. In none of these cases did the officer explain or justify his conduct.

So unconstitutional stops, arrests, and trampling the 4th amendment. Just a small portion of what is going on out there. Oh, and racism to boot.

 

[FoolKiller]

I've never particularly liked this app from the start.

I'm an early adopter. Top 500 in my state, aka Wazer Royalty.

And after last months cop killer who targeted two cops, this just helps his and everyone else's efforts just that much more..

Are you talking about the two officers in Brooklyn or the two officers in Ferguson? If another one, please let me know.

Waze, or any kind of tracking app, played no role in either of the two shootings. The officers in Brooklyn were killed by a man on a murder-suicide spree who was angry at cops and was fleeing from the scene of where he killed his girlfriend when he saw the cops and decided to take them out, and then later himself. Because of past social media postings it is believed that he was motivated by the Eric Garner case.

The Ferguson shootings were done at a protest. No tracking needed. The police were lined up for him. The motivation was pretty obvious.

Both cases were motivated by cases of unarmed men being killed by police. If either of those shootings is a reason for changing rules or behavior, maybe it isn't the citizens that should be changing. This goes back to the PR issue police have. That said, I don't think police, or anyone, should change out of fear of lone extremists.

I avoid speeding in front of police too, but not with an app that targets them, and distracts me while driving.. Two things which should be illegal.

Waze is a GPS that uses user data to be more accurate than any other one out there and warn drivers of hazards, as well as be able to automatically reroute drivers around traffic problems. It uses voice prompts and voice commands. All I have to do to report something is wave my hand in front of my screen and then say what I am reporting. It is no different than using a GPS and listening to the local traffic report while having a passenger in the car.

As for targeting police; Federal courts have ruled that warning drivers of speed traps is protected free speech. And if I wanted to find a police officer sitting where I could target them easily it wouldn't be hard as they tend to pick a few of the same areas to sit and spot traffic violations. Your wishes would require violating free speech and removing an every day function that is being built in to cars. The more cars are adding apps to their interface for things such as music, I can only imagine that any attempt to ban Waze as a phone app will just force it to be a built-in, non-phone program.

I bet it would really piss you off to know that I was once leaving a bar at last call and they announced where all the reported checkpoints in town were.


I suspect lost ticket revenues due to Waze has been a bigger issue for police than anything.

That fact is, Waze causes people to slow down. It has the exact same effect on a driver as seeing a police car on the side of the road, minus the harm to the economy. If safety through reduced speeding is the goal of traffic patrols then Waze is a friend to police and reduces the number of dangerous stops they have to make. If budgets and/or quotas are the reason for traffic patrols then Waze is the enemy of police. Either way, it benefits drivers.

 

[Swagger897]

It's not hard to find police in a city, or do you mean helps him avoid capture? I'm not sure how true that is, when the authorities want someone they do a pretty darn good job at finding them.

You're right, it's not hard to find them in a city. Drive around enough and you'll find them. But they are essentially being targeted by everyone who uses/views the app. Why do people need to know where they are, just so they can break the law, or hide their actions from them? The main selling point of the app isn't for construction or traffic color coding, google maps does that better than anyone else (imo).

But the police finding suspects, not what I was talking about... other way around.

I'm not seeing the problem with using an app, people are being safer and not speeding right?

What could be any more safe than being aware of your surroundings by yourself, driving the speed limit or under, and keeping your car in your lane?

Unless you're one of those who like all of Infinity's options for drivers who couldn't care less for the driving part of it... You look at how they, Mercedes, and a few others are marketing themselves now and you start to feel that even a man more deprived of mental capacities than Forrest Gump can drive...

Under what law should it be illegal to use an app that reminds you to slow down?

That's not what the app does, in fact, it's just the opposite of what you said.

And as far as the reports go that it's an unbalanced proportion of arrests, tickets, etc... How can one say it's unbalanced, when the population is 67% African-American? Does the population have to be 50-50, or equivalent to all other races/ethnicity in order for such a claim to be supported? That is the one thing in the report I find completely unbelievable. I agree with the fact that sometimes the limit was pushed too far for their authority, but to base it all on the fact that they were targeted? No, not a chance. When a race/ethnicity is almost three-quarters the population, that has no valid argument..

I'm an early adopter. Top 500 in my state, aka Wazer Royalty.

Cool

Are you talking about the two officers in Brooklyn or the two officers in Ferguson? If another one, please let me know.

Specifically the two in New York but if the people of Ferguson don't know where the FPD is by now and they need an app to find a conglomeration of officers..... phew....

Here's my two cents for what I found, but there are plenty more out there if you search waze app cops. One I found amusing was Miami officers are/were using it to plot fake locations of the app...


So yes it does have its downfalls, and it's able to be used by both sides, but eventually the dg will get around it and it will become one sided again, and with more of its efforts towards the police tracker..

 

[FoolKiller]

You're right, it's not hard to find them in a city. Drive around enough and you'll find them. But they are essentially being targeted by everyone who uses/views the app.

How am I targeting police?

Why do people need to know where they are, just so they can break the law, or hide their actions from them?

Do you also think no one should be allowed to post signs alerting drivers of a speed trap ahead or flash lights at other drivers to warn them?

The main selling point of the app isn't for construction or traffic color coding, google maps does that better than anyone else (imo).

Um, Waze is owned by Google, has been for a couple of years now. They share traffic data between the systems. Waze is part of why Google Maps works as well as it does.

That's not what the app does, in fact, it's just the opposite of what you said.

If the app isn't encouraging you to slow down then neither are police traps. The only difference between the two is that one helps to adjust your actions in a way that helps the economy, while the other harms the economy.

Here's my two cents for what I found,

Interesting.

Investigators don’t think Brinsley used the app in his attack against NYPD officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu — partly because he threw out his cellphone more than two miles from the scene.

I wonder if those are the same investigators that determine cops shooting unarmed civilians is justified.

But, despite what an LAPD (champions of excessive force) police chief wants, plenty others disagree.

But some law enforcement officers say they want their whereabouts known.
“We want to be seen,” San Jose Police Sgt. Heather Randol told the San Jose Mercury News. She said there’s a purpose to “being highly visible on patrol” — to reduce crime.
In fact, some say the app’s feature could even be called helpful.
“Someone is less likely to speed if they know a police officer is around the corner,” San Francisco Police spokesman Albie Esparza told the newspaper. “It also helps with public safety so people know where there is an officer to get help.”

That brings about a great question. If police are hiding out of fear and not wanting to be found, how are we supposed to find them to help us? Sure, I can call 911 and hope that the minimum response time of four minutes isn't long enough to be killed.

Simple fact is, a visible police presence is important for all crime. If an officer lives in a neighborhood property values go up. If he was a high risk target they would go down. They keep their cars in their driveway, which adds an element of security. By your rationale it tells the .00001% of extremist crazies where to find his family.

One I found amusing was Miami officers are/were using it to plot fake locations of the app...

And they can do that. Their real location will be noted as well, adding increased warnings and slowing even more people down. You just kind of pointed out your own fallacy. If anything, it gives more false positives. I see alerts for all things all the time that are no longer there.

So yes it does have its downfalls, and it's able to be used by both sides, but eventually the dg will get around it and it will become one sided again, and with more of its efforts towards the police tracker..

dg?

It is odd that you are so determined that it is all about the police tracker. It's the traffic, construction, and weather data that is most utilized. No one I know reroutes to avoid a police trap. They just slow down a bit. The default settings, however, will reroute to a faster route if traffic is bad. There is no setting to route around police or cameras.


I have to say, I have never gotten our society's habit of opposing any new technology that might be used illegally. Tape recorders, digital music, pagers, cell phones, Sudafed, guns, and now apps. Yes, you can use almost anything in an illegal manner. Far more people use it in a legal manner. Why punish the majority of responsible people out of fear of the fraction of a percent of crazies? Next you'll suggest we all get nude photographs taken before boarding an airplane...oh wait.

 

[Swagger897]

How am I targeting police?

How are you not? Your are directly marking their exact spot on a map for everyone else who has access to Waze to see....

Do you also think no one should be allowed to post signs alerting drivers of a speed trap ahead or flash lights at other drivers to warn them?

In my state that is illegal. I've seen it done once to me and yes, there was an officer, but I was already aware they would be sitting there most likely because I know where they can/cannot hide (it's illegal for an officer to hide and then ticket).

Um, Waze is owned by Google, has been for a couple of years now. They share traffic data between the systems. Waze is part of why Google Maps works as well as it does.

I now know that from reading a few more things about what PDs are doing against the app... However, I prefer G maps any day for its UI (on my phone at least).

The only difference between the two is that one helps to adjust your actions in a way that helps the economy, while the other harms the economy.

I'm sorry.... What? Having to pay a fine/ticket when you knowingly did something wrong and then whine and cry about it? Please...

What exactly is the percentage of people using the app to locate police for help, rather than to avoid? How many people do you see pull over for help at a speed trap, rather than slow down and not get a fine? I'm thinking it's weight more for the latter...

dg?

Development group/app makers....

No one I know reroutes to avoid a police trap. They just slow down a bit.

Which was my original question aaaaaaall the way at the beginning...

Why under?

You shouldn't be in the first place, in which you are targeting the places which they are at in order not to get a fine that you may have gotten if the app never existed (unless you use scanners/beepers/etc...)

Far more people use it in a legal manner

Citation needed

Why punish the majority of responsible people out of fear of the fraction of a percent of crazies?

Wait a second... who has the fear? The people who know where the police are, or the police who fear themselves being killed by the so called "crazies".

Next you'll suggest we all get nude photographs taken before boarding an airplane...oh wait.

I have nothing to hide when I go on a plane. I fly about thirty times a year, every year so the routine has become ingrained on what is wrong and what is stupid... Scanning me for items that I may/may not use with deadly force does not bother me. Taking away my belt from Northern Tier would, if you assume that using a belt to punish kids (or holding up my pants) is a form of cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[squadops]

And as far as the reports go that it's an unbalanced proportion of arrests, tickets, etc... How can one say it's unbalanced, when the population is 67% African-American? Does the population have to be 50-50, or equivalent to all other races/ethnicity in order for such a claim to be supported? That is the one thing in the report I find completely unbelievable. I agree with the fact that sometimes the limit was pushed too far for their authority, but to base it all on the fact that they were targeted? No, not a chance. When a race/ethnicity is almost three-quarters the population, that has no valid argument..

All I can say is you must not have read the pertinent parts, and there are many more disturbing numbers bellow this paragraph.

Ferguson’s police and municipal court practices disproportionately harm African Americans. Further, our investigation found substantial evidence that this harm stems in part from intentional discrimination in violation of the Constitution. African Americans experience disparate impact in nearly every aspect of Ferguson’s law enforcement system. Despite making up 67% of the population, African Americans accounted for 85% of FPD’s traffic stops, 90% of FPD’s citations, and 93% of FPD’s arrests from 2012 to 2014.Other statistical disparities, set forth in detail below, show that in Ferguson: . . . .

Maybe the African Americans there are much worse drivers then all the other population however, 90% of all citations and 93% of all arrests? There could also be some socioeconomics going on...

I usually downplay the discrimination card because I'm a the type of jerk who says "whatever, just suck it up and live your life" "reverse discrimination wa wa rant" but..

 

[Swagger897]

All I can say is you must not have read the pertinent parts, and there are many more disturbing numbers bellow this paragraph.



Maybe the African Americans there are much worse drivers then all the other population however, 90% of all citations and 93% of all arrests? There could also be some socioeconomics going on...

I usually downplay the discrimination card because I'm a the type of jerk who says "whatever, just suck it up and live your life" "reverse discrimination wa wa rant" but..

No, I read all the numbers, heard all the numbers, and have said all the numbers. Making a claim that it it unfair is ridiculous. If the number was swapped to 34 percent, then yes, that would be unfair, and there would have to be obvious signs of racism, or obvious signs of poor judgment and driving abilities...
But almost 3/4.... no. Not a chance.

 

[FoolKiller]

How are you not? Your are directly marking their exact spot on a map for everyone else who has access to Waze to see....

Am I making them specifically a target or indicating the presence of a police trap?

In my state that is illegal.

So is living on a boat for more than 30 days in a calendar year and owning a sex toy.

I linked to a very recent federal court case. If anyone charged in your state challenges the fine to a federal court level the law will no longer be applicable. I can also find you the case where to get around a court ruling a town made it illegal to be standing where the man was standing.

Of course, I didn't ask you what the law was in your state. I asked what you thought. Law does not make right.

I've seen it done once to me and yes, there was an officer, but I was already aware they would be sitting there most likely because I know where they can/cannot hide (it's illegal for an officer to hide and then ticket).

Wait, you can take an educated guess at where they are going to be hiding? That can't be right. People would be hunting them down to kill them.

I'm sorry.... What? Having to pay a fine/ticket when you knowingly did something wrong and then whine and cry about it? Please...

I'm not whining about anything. I haven't had a ticket in nearly ten years. But removing money from private citizens to government budgets reduces economic spending and growth. A ticket that comes to (just guessing) $300 after fines and court costs means $300 less that could be used for productive means.

How can you say, in anyway, that preventing that money from going to private spending is not harmful, even on a small level, to the economy? Compared to alerting people to a speed trap, making them slow down equally as much as they would have when they saw the patrol car, it is harmful to the economy while Waze is a profit making business.

What exactly is the percentage of people using the app to locate police for help, rather than to avoid?

The point I made wasn't about the app specifically. The argument against the app is that people can find police. Don't we want citizens to be able to find police? If this isn't a BS excuse then it means that police need to never be on the same patrol route they always take, not walk amongst neighborhoods to become friendly with the people who live there, and in general not make themselves easily available to the public.

If I wanted to kill cops on a murder-suicide run just to make a statement, you know where I would go? The police station. Those guys are just walking in and out of that place. And its a murder-suicide run. I'm not trying to get away, so I could just walk up and pull a gun on the first couple of guys I see walking out together and talking.

[quote[How many people do you see pull over for help at a speed trap, rather than slow down and not get a fine? I'm thinking it's weight more for the latter...[/quote]
In both driver's ed and traffic school here they highly recommend that when pulling over you need to find an officer or a well lit area, whether it be due to car trouble or while being pulled over by another officer (because it might not actually be one). In the few instances where I have had car trouble I try to find an officer and get his attention, if just because he can use his car to alert other drivers and may even be able to assist with my problem. If it happened today and I saw an officer was up ahead I would try to get my car to where he is, or at least within sight of him.

How often would that actually happen? I'm guessing about at least as often as a guy hunting down an officer with the app to shoot them.

Which was my original question aaaaaaall the way at the beginning...

To someone else in response to their personal anecdote. I can't tell you why they need to go that far under the speed limit in that situation because it isn't my story involving officers I know.

You shouldn't be in the first place, in which you are targeting the places which they are at in order not to get a fine that you may have gotten if the app never existed (unless you use scanners/beepers/etc...)

Are traffic patrols about police revenue or increased safety by causing people to slow down? If safety, does it matter why they slow down?

Citation needed

Considering the topic was people using the app to hunt down cops to kill them: 50 million Waze users and no known cases where Waze was used to hunt down police. No one can say how many people use it to speed except when police are reported, but then it doesn't get around all police presence. It can't account for police who patrol on the move rather than sitting and waiting. I've marked more police spots than I have been warned about. Half the warnings don't have police present any longer, or were false reports. False reports don't bother me because it keeps traffic on good behavior.

Wait a second... who has the fear? The people who know where the police are, or the police who fear themselves being killed by the so called "crazies".

It is police using fear to justify wanting to stop the feature on Waze.

I noticed you put crazies in quotes. Would you not say that the mythical Waze cop hunter is crazy? If you think they are perfectly sane and stable individuals then that is you.

I have nothing to hide when I go on a plane.

Me either, which is why I place a copy of the 4th Amendment on top of my stuff in my bag, keep my iPad on the 4th Amendment on my Constitution app, in case they open it to check it, and wear a shirt that has the 4th amendment on the front and a backscatter image on the back that says, "The terrorists have already won." I also refuse a scan, but that is due to a medical device. If I did go through I would be sure to get the under clothes that paint the text of the 4th amendment in lead paint, so it shows up on the scan.

I fly about thirty times a year, every year so the routine has become ingrained on what is wrong

I don't need lots of flight experience to know a 4th Amendment violation when I see it. Hell, I wrote a college paper on it when the Patriot Act was being debated. Actually, I wrote a paper on the four amendments that it violates. TSA was primarily a 4th Amendment issue, though.

if you assume that using a belt to punish kids

Careful. Parents have lost their kids to Protective Services for far less.

 

[Swagger897]

Am I making them specifically a target or indicating the presence of a police trap?

both

I asked what you thought.

imo no, they shouldn'y be allowed to. No different than someone spying in on calls, emails, or other forms of communication to alert people they will be arrested/fined..

private citizens

What other types of citizens are there?

A ticket that comes to (just guessing) $300 after fines and court costs means $300 less that could be used for productive means.

You're about $225 off depending on severity... Last I paid was $75 for 15 over...

How can you say, in anyway, that preventing that money from going to private spending is not harmful, even on a small level, to the economy?

Because you are assuming everyone is a statistic that falls in line who A.) eat out the average amount of times per week B.) Pay for entertainment be it movie, sports events, etc C.) Are outgoing and follow all the other statistics. Me personally, I go out to eat about four times a year, once on all my families birthdays. I don't care to eat out, I don't need new clothes or shoes every month/week/whatever... Unless I need it, I get it for the cheapest price. I have few wants and they are all far above a simple ticket.

Compared to alerting people to a speed trap, making them slow down equally as much as they would have when they saw the patrol car, it is harmful to the economy while Waze is a profit making business.

Uhh.... Waze shows you there is an officer (if he/she has been spotted already) ahead... If you rely on your two eyes, the radar or whatever device used will ping back far quicker than you can slow down.. Discretion on the cop is then used.

The point I made wasn't about the app specifically. The argument against the app is that people can find police. Don't we want citizens to be able to find police?

911... how hard is that to remember? And guess what, they even come to you!

If I wanted to kill cops on a murder-suicide run just to make a statement, you know where I would go? The police station. Those guys are just walking in and out of that place. And its a murder-suicide run. I'm not trying to get away, so I could just walk up and pull a gun on the first couple of guys I see walking out together and talking.

Well it looks like that almost certainly happened in Ferguson no?

In both driver's ed and traffic school here they highly recommend that when pulling over you need to find an officer or a well lit area, whether it be due to car trouble or while being pulled over by another officer (because it might not actually be one). In the few instances where I have had car trouble I try to find an officer and get his attention, if just because he can use his car to alert other drivers and may even be able to assist with my problem. If it happened today and I saw an officer was up ahead I would try to get my car to where he is, or at least within sight of him.

How often would that actually happen? I'm guessing about at least as often as a guy hunting down an officer with the app to shoot them.

Whatever, you gave the example....

by causing people to slow down?

Who is causing them to slow down? The officers out in the middle of the road waving their arms? I don't think so...

because it keeps traffic on good behavior.

Really... Does it now? You mean if people drive at or below the limit like they are legally required to, then no one causes problems and no one gets a ticket??? Genius.

It is police using fear to justify wanting to stop the feature on Waze.

They have every right to do so. They are still human, and citizens of the state no?

Would you not say that the mythical Waze cop hunter is crazy? If you think they are perfectly sane and stable individuals then that is you.

That is not what you stated originally. You say that people have fear of police, and use Waze to surpass these fears. Crazy is what you call it, or mentally unstable, but one is completely sane to know what they are doing by using an app to aide their search.

Me either, which is why I place a copy of the 4th Amendment on top of my stuff in my bag, keep my iPad on the 4th Amendment on my Constitution app, in case they open it to check it, and wear a shirt that has the 4th amendment on the front and a backscatter image on the back that says, "The terrorists have already won." I also refuse a scan, but that is due to a medical device. If I did go through I would be sure to get the under clothes that paint the text of the 4th amendment in lead paint, so it shows up on the scan.

Nice story. It's good to know that I'm talking to one of the jackasses who have to slow down the line and make an enormous deal over something so simple and everyday to the rest of us. If you have such a problem with it and refuse to take such a simple option and rather go down a much longer path, I'm sure you wouldn't mind then to pay for your own plane to take you where ever you would want to go in your greatest imaginations...

I don't need lots of flight experience to know a 4th Amendment violation when I see it. Hell, I wrote a college paper on it when the Patriot Act was being debated. Actually, I wrote a paper on the four amendments that it violates. TSA was primarily a 4th Amendment issue, though.

That wasn't the point either. You know (well probably not), and it has been mentioned several times, that you are quite the one to stir up useless conversations to get your ideas across. I mean, it seems to me you really hate to live where ever you do. It may just be my imagination or something strange coming across from me, but why don't you... oh I don't know.... leave.

 

[FoolKiller]

I will start with this. It might save you time.

That wasn't the point either. You know (well probably not), and it has been mentioned several times, that you are quite the one to stir up useless conversations to get your ideas across.

I express my opinions in the Opinions forum. Sorry.

I mean, it seems to me you really hate to live where ever you do. It may just be my imagination or something strange coming across from me, but why don't you... oh I don't know.... leave.

Here is a crazy idea: You can love your country but not your government.

I love my country, its founding principles and the protections of freedom they provide their citizens. I feel our government has gotten far from that. Certain things used to require a large process to get it passed, for good reason, and now someone just signs something and says it's so. We have stepped away from the guaranteed liberties in our founding documents.

I want to make my country the place I believe it can be, and being silent will never achieve that.

If you have an issue with me expressing my free speech, within the confines of the AUP, there is an ignore button.
Feel free to use it.

imo no, they shouldn'y be allowed to. No different than someone spying in on calls, emails, or other forms of communication to alert people they will be arrested/fined..

Wow, you equated letting someone know that an officer is ahead to spying on calls? I didn't realize I was the same as the NSA.

What other types of citizens are there?

Police officers on duty are public servants in the act of performing a public duty. Courts have ruled this in the cases of recording officers. Police in the line of duty, according to courts, are not given the same expectation of privacy as a private citizen. I work for my state government. When I am at work I am not a private citizen. I can not have political stickers on my car at my office and my job title and salary are all publicly available information.

You're about $225 off depending on severity... Last I paid was $75 for 15 over...

Differs state to state and county to county. Court fees here run over $150, even if you never actually go to court.

Because you are assuming everyone is a statistic that falls in line who A.) eat out the average amount of times per week B.) Pay for entertainment be it movie, sports events, etc C.) Are outgoing and follow all the other statistics. Me personally, I go out to eat about four times a year, once on all my families birthdays. I don't care to eat out, I don't need new clothes or shoes every month/week/whatever... Unless I need it, I get it for the cheapest price. I have few wants and they are all far above a simple ticket.

OK, with the exception of people who keep their money stashed under their mattress then.

Uhh.... Waze shows you there is an officer (if he/she has been spotted already) ahead... If you rely on your two eyes, the radar or whatever device used will ping back far quicker than you can slow down.. Discretion on the cop is then used.

But everyone still slows down. The only difference is revenue for the police budget.

911... how hard is that to remember? And guess what, they even come to you!

So, there are many ways to find police if you want one to kill? I am fully aware of how police can be ambushed without being hunted down where they are sitting. One such case happened to an officer whose family grew up in the same community as me. All the killers needed to know was that his patrol took him down that section of road.

Well it looks like that almost certainly happened in Ferguson no?

Not quite, but similar, yes. No Waze necessary.

Who is causing them to slow down? The officers out in the middle of the road waving their arms? I don't think so...

So, that would be revenue then?

... Does it now? You mean if people drive at or below the limit like they are legally required to, then no one causes problems and no one gets a ticket??? Genius.

And if people are aware that the likelihood of getting caught violating the law is increased they improve their behavior in general.

They have every right to do so. They are still human, and citizens of the state no?

Regulation is force. They have to justify that force within the bounds of the constitution and hopefully have better reasoning than to bring up fears of something that has not been a problem to this date.

That is not what you stated originally. You say that people have fear of police, and use Waze to surpass these fears.

My first mention of fear.

That brings about a great question. If police are hiding out of fear and not wanting to be found, how are we supposed to find them to help us?

The argument against Waze is a phantom fear against an action that has never occurred: police being hunted down. If somewhere along the line I worded something in a way that confused that, I apologize, but that was not what I meant.

Crazy is referring to the people who wish to hunt down cops.

Crazy is what you call it, or mentally unstable, but one is completely sane to know what they are doing by using an app to aide their search.

OK. The mythical, Waze-using, completely sane and stable, methodical cop hunter.

Nice story. It's good to know that I'm talking to one of the jackasses who have to slow down the line and make an enormous deal over something so simple and everyday to the rest of us. If you have such a problem with it and refuse to take such a simple option and rather go down a much longer path,

Does the guy standing to the side slow you down? I have to get out of line because of an implanted, life-saving medical device that could be damaged by the scanning machines. If my not dying is a problem for you, too bad.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind then to pay for your own plane to take you where ever you would want to go in your greatest imaginations...

Nothing of the sort. I just don't think that we should all be treated like potential criminals for buying a plane ticket.

 

[The Bman]

There is a lot of chaos in Baltimore right now, protesting the killing of Freddie Gray and police are being attacked:

http://nypost.com/2015/04/27/at-least-7-cops-injured-as-riots-break-out-in-baltimore/

 

[phillgt2002]

Lol, I always laugh at this title when it pops up.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Because those few are a wee bit ticket happy....

While police in my area are notorious for being ticket happy, one stands out in my department. I won't give out his name, but if he pulls you over, he will find a damn reason to ticket you. As a bit of a sidebar here, my state allows a five MPH gap between the sign and when you are actually given a ticket for speeding. It all depends on how much of a 🤬 your particular LEO is wanting to be when he pulls you over.

There is a lot of chaos in Baltimore right now, protesting the killing of Freddie Gray and police are being attacked:

http://nypost.com/2015/04/27/at-least-7-cops-injured-as-riots-break-out-in-baltimore/

Maryland's Governor has declared a state of emergency for Baltimore, and has called in the National Guard. That news broke about an hour ago.

 

[mustafur]

Police Brutality vs Non Blacks = Police brutality

Police Brutality vs Blacks = Racism

This is the problem.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Breaking: 15 Officers are now injured due to the riots. This by way of The Blaze.

 

[fortbo]

 

[Blitz24]

They don't care. They see it as a free night to not listen to rules and do whatever they want.