Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman

Gun permits require a background check. As for future rules, if anyone was going to increase restrictions due to shootings with legal guns it would have happened long before now.

Somewhere I agree, although I was brought up differently.

In Belgium there are restrictions and background checks, still Dutroux was able to get a gun legally in 1994 after coming out of prison, where since 1986 he was known as an abductor of minors.

In the US where they have in the Bill of rights: Right to keep and bear arms, they convicted Viktor Anatolyevich Bout. I even started to defend this man in groups of friends, as he is a trader and not a killer.

The issue is not the gun, but that man that uses it. If you restrict the guns, you do have a chance to restrict the usage, but is restriction worth the gain in security? On what basis do you say the person carrying a gun is going to use it wrongly? Similar for Viktor Anatolyevich Bout, who's right did infringe by trading? Should all trade be restricted? What else should people be able to restrict based on the assumption you will abuse it?

Restrictions can help, but I'm more in favour of freedom as a first rule.

The issue here is Zimmerman, provoking or not, Martin by persuit and the unclear events that happened afterwards ... leading to a deadly shot. The only one on trial is Zimmerman for shooting, not the whole world for owning a gun.
 
I think this should be brought up. Long story short, the article claims a Florida mom was firing "warning" shots at her abusive husband and she is on 20 years. She was denied the stand your ground law!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/


Terrible reporting strikes again!!!

This seems to paint a different picture.

I have no sympathy for someone who shoots towards a young child, I don't give a damn how abusive the husband was.
 
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I think this should be brought up. Long story short, the article claims a Florida mom was firing "warning" shots at her abusive husband and she is on 20 years. She was denied the stand your ground law!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

It's because she escaped "danger" then returned to the house and fired the shots. At that point, it wasn't self defense but aggravated assault. If the husband was chasing her the entire time then the stand your ground rule would've held up.
 
Somewhere I agree, although I was brought up differently.

In Belgium there are restrictions and background checks, still Dutroux was able to get a gun legally in 1994 after coming out of prison, where since 1986 he was known as an abductor of minors.

In the US where they have in the Bill of rights: Right to keep and bear arms, they convicted Viktor Anatolyevich Bout. I even started to defend this man in groups of friends, as he is a trader and not a killer.

The issue is not the gun, but that man that uses it. If you restrict the guns, you do have a chance to restrict the usage, but is restriction worth the gain in security? On what basis do you say the person carrying a gun is going to use it wrongly? Similar for Viktor Anatolyevich Bout, who's right did infringe by trading? Should all trade be restricted? What else should people be able to restrict based on the assumption you will abuse it?

Restrictions can help, but I'm more in favour of freedom as a first rule.

The issue here is Zimmerman, provoking or not, Martin by persuit and the unclear events that happened afterwards ... leading to a deadly shot. The only one on trial is Zimmerman for shooting, not the whole world for owning a gun.

To use Obama's use of words, my views on guns have "evolved" over the years. I used to be a staunch pro-control person, but I have realized that certain aspects of gun control are just too impractical. There are numerous situations in which a gun can be used to defend oneself in dangerous situations.

But at the same time, there are other situations in which the usage of guns is just excessive. I actually talked about the Zimmerman/Martin case in the context of another case, the Goetz case in the 1990s, where a man shot four black teenagers because he thought that he was going to get mugged (this all happened in a NY subway). He was (unfairly) acquitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

Most opponents of gun control always refer to the old phrase: "guns don't kill people... people kill people." While this is certainly true, I think that a gun gives the user a sense of distance from the action of actually killing someone. This is a distance that other weapons, such as a brick, a club, a knife, or a pigeon (rolls eyes) don't offer people. This could be because a gun doesn't require much use of actual physical force beyond pulling the trigger--while stabbing a person requires you to plunge the damned knife into the person, with enough physical force to, well, stab the person. I remember my friend telling me he had a dream in which he was being jumped by a group of thugs. He told me that he had managed to pin one of the guys on the floor and managed to grab a pistol. He fired, but the gun was empty. He then found a knife, and just as he was going to use it, he felt something stopping him: himself. He simply couldn't use the knife. But, on contrast, he was willing to pull the trigger of a gun. In another situation, I was having a discussion with a friend on utilitarianism. I asked her if she would kill one person to save 100. She said yes. Assuming that she thought she would be using a gun, I asked her again: what if you had to kill him with a knife, or beat him to death... would you still do it? And then, there was some hesitation. In my view, a gun gives the user a sense of distance from himself/herself and the other person.

And then there's the question of crazy people. Certainly, crazy, sociopathic people exist. My question in all of this is what happens when you give a crazy person a gun? I suspect that a crazy person without a gun can attack someone else, but have a greater difficulty killing that person. If you give the crazy person a gun, however, the whole thing changes. Not only do you increase the likelihood of death, but you also increase the number of people that can be killed. Remember Columbine, Virginia Tech? Mass killings with guns. (to anticipate, yes, other things like bombs can kill people en masse, but, I suspect these things are illegal).

Yes, guns don't kill people. But crazy people with guns kill people. Crazy people without guns have a harder time.

It's in this consideration that I find a middle ground between gun control legislation and the responsible use of guns.

And to bring this discussion back to the Martin case... it's this consideration that makes Zimmerman's case such a fishy one. How can someone claim self-defense if that person is following someone else who has no weapon. Zimmerman had made no determination prior to following Martin. I think, as someone else pointed out, Zimmerman wanted to be a hero. And the fact that he had a gun made him that much emboldened. Had he been unarmed, this would have been a completely different story from the start.

So yes, the gun changes everything...
 
I remember my friend telling me he had a dream in which he was being jumped by a group of thugs. He told me that he had managed to pin one of the guys on the floor and managed to grab a pistol. He fired, but the gun was empty. He then found a knife, and just as he was going to use it, he felt something stopping him: himself. He simply couldn't use the knife. But, on contrast, he was willing to pull the trigger of a gun. In another situation, I was having a discussion with a friend on utilitarianism. I asked her if she would kill one person to save 100. She said yes. Assuming that she thought she would be using a gun, I asked her again: what if you had to kill him with a knife, or beat him to death... would you still do it? And then, there was some hesitation. In my view, a gun gives the user a sense of distance from himself/herself and the other person.

You're using a dream your friend had and another friend's answer to a hypothetical moral dilemma as proof?

There are thousands of soldiers and police officers who will argue otherwise.

And then there's the question of crazy people. Certainly, crazy, sociopathic people exist. My question in all of this is what happens when you give a crazy person a gun? I suspect that a crazy person without a gun can attack someone else, but have a greater difficulty killing that person. If you give the crazy person a gun, however, the whole thing changes. Not only do you increase the likelihood of death, but you also increase the number of people that can be killed. Remember Columbine, Virginia Tech? Mass killings with guns. (to anticipate, yes, other things like bombs can kill people en masse, but, I suspect these things are illegal).

Yes, guns don't kill people. But crazy people with guns kill people. Crazy people without guns have a harder time.

Most shootings and massacres are carried out using handguns. How can you expect to keep these out of the hands of soon-to-be shooters and still give the civilian population a viable means of self defense?

And what makes you think that gun control will stop crazy people from obtaining guns? If they're not willing to follow your laws about not murdering other human beings, why would they go through the processes of obtaining a legal weapon?

In the case of the North Hollywood Shootout, the two men procured automatic rifles illegally.

It is also easy to make bombs. I believe the Columbine shooters had an extremely large stash (edit: 99 bombs).
 
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You're using a dream your friend had and another friend's answer to a hypothetical moral dilemma as proof?

There are thousands of soldiers and police officers who will argue otherwise.

Not proof. But certainly plausible. Not everyone is a soldier or a police officer. And I'm sure that, as a soldier or a police officer, one of the things you have to learn to do is to not hesitate using physical force when you don't have a gun at hand. Most people don't have that training, mainly because they're not thinking about the next possible fistfight. Average Americans simply don't have the same composure as police when confronted with these situations.

Most shootings and massacres are carried out using handguns.

That's my point... guns disconnect people from the action. There's not much physical exertion needed to pull the trigger.

How can you expect to keep these out of the hands of soon-to-be shooters and still give the civilian population a viable means of self defense?

And what makes you think that gun control will stop crazy people from obtaining guns? If they're not willing to follow your laws about not murdering other human beings, why would they go through the processes of obtaining a legal weapon?

In the case of the North Hollywood Shootout, the two men procured automatic rifles illegally.

Good point. I agree with what you're trying to infer here. But that hardly makes gun control an unreasonable policy. I'm not saying that the people who are likely to use these things strictly as self-defense should not get a hold of guns. Not at all. I am saying that those laws should have the intent of keeping those guns from those who are willing to kill. Because the other option (no gun control) effectively means letting everyone go at it, shooting those who they think will try to kill them. Now we're talking power balancing (how do I protect against my neighbor's AK-47?). Then you have paranoia.

Then there are those instances where people who, at one point, had the composure to use a gun responsibly go all nuts. Crimes of passion, where people wouldn't normally stab their partner and the lover, can involve the use of guns. Police officers sometimes use guns when other alternatives are available (and less dangerous). Zimmerman, too, had other alternatives, many of them suggested by the dispatcher. These things did not end well.

To sum all of this up, I'm not actually advocating for the strictest measures against owning a gun. But there should be some measures.

It is also easy to make bombs. I believe the Columbine shooters had an extremely large stash (edit: 99 bombs).

Making a bomb is illegal, or am I just making this up? I don't see anyone contending that, nor contending that making bomb-making illegal is against basic principles of freedom (2nd amendment proponents make this claim with guns).
 
Not proof. But certainly plausible. Not everyone is a soldier or a police officer. And I'm sure that, as a soldier or a police officer, one of the things you have to learn to do is to not hesitate using physical force when you don't have a gun at hand. Most people don't have that training, mainly because they're not thinking about the next possible fistfight. Average Americans simply don't have the same composure as police when confronted with these situations.

That's my point... guns disconnect people from the action. There's not much physical exertion needed to pull the trigger.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The point I was trying to make is that killing another human being is an extremely difficult thing to do, no matter what weapon is used.

Good point. I agree with what you're trying to infer here. But that hardly makes gun control an unreasonable policy. I'm not saying that the people who are likely to use these things strictly as self-defense should not get a hold of guns. Not at all. I am saying that those laws should have the intent of keeping those guns from those who are willing to kill. Because the other option (no gun control) effectively means letting everyone go at it, shooting those who they think will try to kill them. Now we're talking power balancing (how do I protect against my neighbor's AK-47?). Then you have paranoia.

I agree, mostly. I don't think that giving the public the ability to purchase automatic weapons is the same as giving them a license to kill (such as how several groups are trying to paint Stand Your Ground Laws), but I understand your point.

The difficult part is trying to come up with a way to decide who deserves their right to bear arms and who doesn't. Of course, this is impossible, but I prefer to err on the side of freedom.

Then there are those instances where people who, at one point, had the composure to use a gun responsibly go all nuts. Crimes of passion, where people wouldn't normally stab their partner and the lover, can involve the use of guns. Police officers sometimes use guns when other alternatives are available (and less dangerous). Zimmerman, too, had other alternatives, many of them suggested by the dispatcher. These things did not end well.

The fact that people who appear to be perfectly sane and reasonable occasionally snap or have a lapse in judgement is tragic. However, I think it's just a part of having such a huge number of people who own guns.

To sum all of this up, I'm not actually advocating for the strictest measures against owning a gun. But there should be some measures.

Okay. Do you have any specific ones that could relate to this case?

Making a bomb is illegal, or am I just making this up? I don't see anyone contending that, nor contending that making bomb-making illegal is against basic principles of freedom (2nd amendment proponents make this claim with guns).

I'm not, I'm saying that obtaining illegal weapons is easy for the dedicated and willing.
 
It seems like the case is getting weaker by the day.

Though what's this? All because he's Obama's kid. It would be hard to show that he shot him because he was black unless they mean only profiled.
The Justice Department is also pondering a federal hate crime charge, if they determine that Zimmerman profiled and shot Martin because he was black. A hate crime charge could put the death penalty into play if Zimmerman is convicted on all counts.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012...rtin-medical-reports-tell-us-and-media-didnt/
 
Zenith013
I'd say that this case is related to the discussion we were having.
It was heading toward a gun control debate without any relationship to this case. It got away from it and unless someone reeled that back in it would have hijacked the thread.

EDIT:
Basically, when I saw suggestions for restrictions that would not have kept a gun out of Zimmerman's hands I saw the change. Even then, I dislike having tragedies turned into political debates. Using this case as a point in a gun debate is one thing, turning discussion of the case toward a gun debate kind of derails things.
 
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We're the Martin parents aware of this evidence? They've been telling this story as if their son was killed in cold blood.

If they were aware of the information in the medical reports and continued to perpetuate that story then they're either hugely in denial or spreading lies to win a case.
 
It started out with Trayvon Martin, average kid who went out for some skittles, was racially profiled, attacked, calling for help, then shot to death - to he could've been buying or smoking some weed, beat the crap out of neighborhood watchman, then was shot in self-defense.

Looks like we are finally getting some facts, but I'm still of the impression that we may never know what happened that night.

One thing has not changed for me, and that is Zimmerman. Well, if what his ex-coworkers & acquaintances are saying is true, he is a bigger piece of 🤬 than I originally thought.

Edit: I only got to the parts about pot, tattoos, and I don't know how much of it is true, but as someone who didn't completely buy the image of Trayvon Martin the media was painting, I wouldn't be at all surprised. OK, maybe a little bit.
 
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I caught a little bit of a piece talking about the case and I swear I hear them say the prosecutor said that Zimmerman could have avoided the incident.

Does Florida have any requirements for their prosecutors? I know very little about law but I know a statement like that is just absurd. To me at least it seems that not only did they basically blame the victim(granted he isn't completely innocent in this case) but pretty much have shown very reasonable doubt in their case.

I hope for their sake that the comment wasn't made while court was in session.

One thing has not changed for me, and that is Zimmerman. Well, if what his ex-coworkers & acquaintances are saying is true, he is a bigger piece of 🤬 than I originally thought.

I can't imagine anyone that takes neighborhood watch that seriously being a great joy to be around.


The sad thing is that is from March, yet the media still tries to pass him as an innocent kid getting candy.
 
I caught a little bit of a piece talking about the case and I swear I hear them say the prosecutor said that Zimmerman could have avoided the incident.

Does Florida have any requirements for their prosecutors? I know very little about law but I know a statement like that is just absurd. To me at least it seems that not only did they basically blame the victim(granted he isn't completely innocent in this case) but pretty much have shown very reasonable doubt in their case.

I´m having trouble following the above.

1) Zimmerman: Is not a victim in the case, nobody seems to prosecute Martin for attacking Zimmerman.

2) Let´s stay with what we know:
Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-620x457.jpg


1) The man on the left is walking to his aunt.
2) The man on the right is protecting his neighbourhood.
So far so good.
3) The man on the right is finding the man on the left suspicious.
4) The man on the right is calling 911
5) The man on the right starts following the man on the right left
6) The two man seem to meet and discuss loudly (witnesses)
7) The man on the left seems to be hitting the man on the right (witnesses)
8) The man on the right shoots the man on the left (he admits to that).

The whole issue in the case is that action 8, makes it impossible to see how 6 and 7 happened.

Looking at the pictures I doubt very much that 7 would have happened without 3, 4, 5 and 6. So for me the prosecutor is stating that if the man on the right is doing action 3, 4, 5 he should be sure to control sufficiently action 6 so that it does not lead to 8 when he engages with a person that is unarmed.

I do not believe calling 911 was done to cover up a pre-meditated action, so till 5 it seems innocent action. 6 and 7 are the discussion points in the case. Probably both persons did some wrong things in that phase, but what lead to it and did it justify 8?

It will be very difficult to come to that truth.
 
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Well if you simply look at the age difference I guess. There is no reason the death should have happened but no one in this thread knows what transpired. I've yet to see any 'gangsta' pics of Zimmerman.
 
Well if you simply look at the age difference I guess. There is no reason the death should have happened but no one in this thread knows what transpired. I've yet to see any 'gangsta' pics of Zimmerman.

Should you be shot when 'gangsta' pictures of yourself exist?

Your looks have no importance on the guilt, it is the act.
I agree that using drugs and a witness that confirms Zimmerman's version of a violent attack of Martin shows that it is not clear if the "stand your ground" was not justified, however the court case is meant to look at all the "relevant" elements (if there is a way to get them) and without them together no judgement can be fair.
 
I´m having trouble following the above.

1) Zimmerman: Is not a victim in the case, nobody seems to prosecute Martin for attacking Zimmerman.

I wasn't aware that (allegedly) being attacked didn't make you a victim.

The prosecutor saying that to me at least, seems like admitting it could have been self defense.

1) The man on the left is walking to his aunt.

From what I have heard he was at his dad's house on a 10-Day suspension from school and decided to get some food at 2AM. Not sure where you got his aunt from.

does not lead to 8 when he engages with a person that is unarmed.

If police don't have x-ray vision yet, I'm also guessing Zimmerman didn't.

but what lead to it and did it justify 8?

Martin attacking him?

If someone has me pinned on the ground and I have access to my gun, someone is going to be in a world of hurt.... or dead. It may be excessive, but if it's me or someone else, I'm picking me.
 
To me, it's not a question of if a punk gansta-wannabe deserved to die. The issue I have with this whole case is the way the media have been presenting (and suppressing) some of the facts, not to mention some of the outright distortions such as the NBC doctoring of the 911 transcript. The media have painted Martin as a saintly little choir boy, which would be pretty damaging to what Zimnmerman claims happened. As it turns out, the facts which are now coming out make Zimmerman's story a whole lot more plausible especially since the physical evidence seems to back him up as well.
 
The media have painted Martin as a saintly little choir boy, which would be pretty damaging to what Zimnmerman claims happened.

That's the whole thing. Obama's son remark didn't help either. And then we have clowns like Al Sharpton bringing in more garbage.

I don't get the racial profiling thing. If the suspects of the break-ins are black, why would Zimmerman go after other people? Are they trying to paint Zimmermann as a racist?
 
Yeah, I was just gonna comment to Vince about that, too. Us bringing up the pot, possibility that he was dealing, tatoos, gold teeth, of course, it has absolutely zero to do with him being guilty or not. What we are questioning is the blatant media cover-up. As far as I'm concerned, the they have gone beyond distorting the facts with these mispresentation.

I still think Zimmerman is an idiot, but I am smelling political B.S. all over these media coverage.
 
Yeah, I was just gonna comment to Vince about that, too. Us bringing up the pot, possibility that he was dealing, tatoos, gold teeth, of course, it has absolutely zero to do with him being guilty or not. What we are questioning is the blatant media cover-up. As far as I'm concerned, the they have gone beyond distorting the facts with these mispresentation.

I still think Zimmerman is an idiot, but I am smelling political B.S. all over these media coverage.

You're finally seeing that, huh? Good. I saw it a long time ago, myself. Glad you're coming around.

Oh, an Zimmerman isn't an idiot. He's a hero for saving his own life and for watching over his loved ones.
 
Saving his own life?

Have you forgotten the cell phone call that Martin made, about how he was scared that the car was following him? If he was the agressor, then why would he go after Zimmerman if he was scared? If I was Martin I'd start running.
 
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