Update 1.16 Physics Changes

[hasslemoff]

I know I called out placebo effect which is how I feel as to me I see or feel no difference, but the main part is if there has been some change how come not everyone can feel it, notice it ? What is the person doing differently ? basically i'm just trying to gain a understanding and its great if PD has made minor tweaks, it shows that they are still trying to perfect it with minor adjustments.

If ABS masks it, then everyone who has said they have felt a difference must use ABS off ?
I should have two replays of before and after with ABS off by the end of the week, I might get chance today to run them and ill upload them.

and that you've been weirdly selective with your windowing / scaling on the steering graph posted

Correct sorry about that it was a bit weird. Black line = 1.16

The less input around the 1:10 mark was because I took the last two corners slower than 1.15 this was down to me not because I felt anything different just hitting the apex slower which in turn needed lees input, same with the 30 sec mark.
Even still they are not massive changes to say that the car is turning in different, or less steering input is needed. I find it best to watch the replays then look at the data instead of going straight into the data as you can refer to drivers little mistakes. Or if its your own replay you understand where you have the mistake and can see it on the data.

My argument was based entirely around the change in input. Do you not adapt your driving style to a change in response to the thing you're trying to control? This is all anyone is arguing: the cars feel different to control.

Yes, I adapt to get the best out of the car i'm driving in a given situation which includes changing my style. The other argument is they feel no different to control and there has been very different thoughts on how they seem to be changed and now its been suggested that ABS is probably masking it.
Thats why I asked some questions earlier in the thread ?

People are saying its more predictable when braking, then someone else says that the rear end comes around more, there is more wobble when braking. There seems to be a few different feelings coming through, yes they all say it feels different so why is the feeling different between drivers ?
There seems to be a variance in how the car's feel in 1.16.

Whether that's due to some trick of the screen "kinematics" or an actual underlying "physics change" is irrelevant and ultimately indeterminable. If the game is simply more enjoyable due to the change, which results in real changes in the way players interact with it, then this is indistinguishable from "actual physics changes" in its outcome. If laptimes are the only thing used to differentiate the two ("tricks" and "actual physics"), there is a great deal being overlooked. The player-game feedback loop is fundamental and final.

But whatever or if any changes have been made the feeling is not there for everyone so the players feedback is at fault ?
If that would be the case then there is a fair few players who are at fault for not feeling it.

The mistake at the last hairpin has no effect on the yaw consideration, it's understeer: the steering and yaw rate are both relatively steady - in fact, it makes that corner entry look stable. Why do mistakes occur? What about how much faster the entry to the last corner was, with heavy trail braking (on CM tyres!)?

Looking at when the driver brakes in 1.15 is why the entry speed is faster into the final corner, he brakes later. It was mainly to highlight the mistake's in the two laps which have an effect on the data overall.

The first corner is a great point of comparison. The braking was much sooner in 1.16, but so was the downshift and the trail braking deeper, and yet the steering inputs are less erratic. The attempt at trail braking in 1.15 resulted in over-rotation. In fact, I showed that braking was generally initiated at greater yaw angles in 1.16 than 1.15. Why would that be? EDIT: look at the brake pressure histogram, also.

The steering input would be less erratic if you are entering a corner slower by braking earlier and allowing you to trail brake later as your entry speed is under more control. Entering the corner with more speed = less control it also means you get on the power later.

Is it part of the new feeling that makes you brake earlier to allow you a smoother entrance ?
Up to now I have no need to brake earlier in 1.16.

You're making me jump through hoops to see the points you ought to have properly illustrated yourself.

Ill have it uploaded for you later today.

At the end of the day, these are just two laps, but they somewhat miraculously (it seems) show the effect that many have felt.
Not if ABS masks the effect. An obvious example being brake bias.

The two laps to me only show different driver inputs which is why there is a different feeling in the corners, i.e turn 1.

Again if ABS masks the effect all those who feel it must use no ABS.

And I hope your not inclining to adjust the BB to feel the difference between 1.15 and 1.16

 

[OdeFinn]

ABS makes definately harder to realise changes.

Just tested few tunes what I've made on 1.15 for CS/SH compounds, to achieve close same handling on 1.16 I needed to add +1 more ARB on both ends.
This is not clear rule, 450pp car +1 made it pretty close to earlier handling, 550pp car I was having problem coz I would like to have +1,5 more ARB, but as you know there is no half. When going to better compounds weight transfer comes more visible.
Also tried some hard suspension(racing tires) tuned car and these new weight transfers are not so visible on hard suspension.

Before 1.16 ARB worked bit differently or effected different. It made cars easily bouncing from curbs, reduce rear grip, bit like going on soap on harder suspensions. Now it seems to work as keeping both sides still on separated suspension and letting dampers and springs do their work.
Earlier it felt like it just made more and more suspension sides to work together, partly it does that IRL, GT6 just exaggerated it too much, now much better and reducing body roll closer to real.

 

[hornet_burnout]

There's a great difference in behaviour. I invite users to take a go in the rain too.

OMG, that's a brilliant tip! And I can do in a Datsun too like in the old days (IRL)

(photo by ThunderBRGT)

On topic, I use ABS 1, but it seldom triggers. I modulate braking and/or trail brake. Or when I want to shake it into the corner just for fun/drifting, I let go of the brakes suddenly while I turn hard.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I appreciate the amount of work people have done with MoTeC and such, but in my view this debate comes down to three things:

1. Driving feel is not quantifiable.

2. Different people just have different sensitivities to feel.

3. Taking into account the number of cars, tracks, settings, input system (DS3 or wheel), aids, driving style and minset/placebo effects, its guaranteed that 100% agreement will never be reached. Even if PD put out a detailed change log some people will still argue they can't feel anything.

I'll just leave this here.

- If you can't feel and believe it's not there, then great. Carry on playing as you were.
- If you do, great too, much better driving experience for you.

/thread.

 

[NCRthree]

@hornet_burnout


If you want a REAL physics improvement, switch off ABS. Read up on it here on GTP. It doesn't exactly "trigger", it's a deceleration stabilizer that aids weight transfer as much as helping with wheel lock. If you want more "realistic" turn-in, turn it off. You need to mess with the BB and have a sensitive enough input device too.

 

[helseth]

@hornet_burnout


If you want a REAL physics improvement, switch off ABS. Read up on it here on GTP. It doesn't exactly "trigger", it's a deceleration stabilizer that aids weight transfer as much as helping with wheel lock. If you want more "realistic" turn-in, turn it off. You need to mess with the BB and have a sensitive enough input device too.

I don't like the feel of ingame ABS at all. With ABS off using racing brakes on comfort tyres is as useless as in real life.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I appreciate the amount of work people have done with MoTeC and such, but in my view this debate comes down to three things:

1. Driving feel is not quantifiable.

2. Different people just have different sensitivities to feel.

3. Taking into account the number of cars, tracks, settings, input system (DS3 or wheel), aids, driving style and minset/placebo effects, its guaranteed that 100% agreement will never be reached. Even if PD put out a detailed change log some people will still argue they can't feel anything.

I'll just leave this here.


/thread.

You have summed it up beautifully, nothing more to be said. 👍 That is pretty much what I said in regards to the whole camber update debate. Unless PD comes out and says, one way or the other, that they updated camber in update 1.15 I believe it was, where people were claiming a change, we will never know. Same here. Again, great post. 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

You have summed it up beautifully, nothing more to be said. 👍 That is pretty much what I said in regards to the whole camber update debate. Unless PD comes out and says, one way or the other, that they updated camber in update 1.15 I believe it was, where people were claiming a change, we will never know. Same here. Again, great post. 👍

If camber worked in game as it does in real life, which is obviously the goal here, it would be blatantly obvious in the lap times and lap time data. In real life, cars with camber settings suitable to their car/tire/track combination are clearly faster than those without it. This was also the case in GT5. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, if camber worked like it should, it would be blatantly obvious.

A slight change in physics on the other hand might or might not show up in lap times, depends on what the change is and how strong it is, but might show up in driver feel and also in the Motec data. It's more than worthy of discussion for those that are interested in this sort of thing.

I don't understand why people need to drop into the middle of a discussion to tell everyone that there's no point to the discussion and we should just end the thread. Especially a discussion that's so civilized and full of good information, in a forum where that is not always the case when discussion of this nature arise. If one thinks there's no point to the thread how about?:

/leave thread

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

If camber worked as it's supposed to, it would be blatantly obvious in the lap times and lap time data. In real life, cars with camber settings suitable to their car/tire/track combination are clearly faster than those without it. This was also the case in GT5. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, if camber worked like it should, it would be blatantly obvious.

A slight change in physics on the other hand might or might not show up in lap times, depends on what the change is and how strong it is, but might show up in driver feel and also in the Motec data. It's more than worthy of discussion for those that are interested in this sort of thing.

I don't understand why people need to drop into the middle of a discussion to tell everyone that there's no point to the discussion and we should just end the thread. If one thinks there's no point to the thread how about?:

/leave thread

Again, you have completely switched around my post to benefit your own. I was not talking about camber working or not, I was making reference about update 1.15 where there were people claiming there was an update to camber and what I said regarding it. Don't be so quick to jump next time.

You know Johnny, you are like that irritating little Chihuahua that goes around nipping at everybody's heels. Sometimes I just feel like swatting you with a rolled up newspaper and telling you to "get!!!" (and yes, I do mean that as a joke and nothing personal)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Again, you have completely switched around my post to benefit your own. I was not talking about camber working or not, I was talking about update 1.15 where there were people claiming there was an update to camber. Don't be so quick to jump next time.

You know Johnny, you are like that irritating little Chihuahua that goes around nipping at everybody's heels. Sometimes I just feel like swatting you with a rolled up newspaper and telling you to "get!!!" (and yes, I do mean that as a joke and nothing personal)

Nor was I talking about camber working or not, I was giving you the context of the discussion around camber and why the discussion around it is necessary. If update 1.15 did fix camber, it would be obvious and worthy of discussion. It wouldn't boil down to an opinion, which is the point of the discussion, to remove the opinion and get to the facts.

Either way, doesn't change the fact that there needs to be discussion and clarification around these issues in the community. PD isn't going to do the heavy lifting so we have to take it upon ourselves to figure out Undocumented Changes to the game after each update, of which there have been dozens upon dozens. Popping in just to say the discussion if fruitless is pointless and contributes nothing to the debate wouldn't you say? Kind of like a little Chihuahua that barks fiercely at the big dog while wrapped up in a doggie coat and sitting in a purse.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Nor was I talking about camber working or not, I was giving you the context of the discussion around camber and why the discussion around it is necessary. If update 1.15 did fix camber, it would be obvious and worthy of discussion. It wouldn't boil down to an opinion, which is the point of the discussion, to remove the opinion and get to the facts.

Either way, doesn't change the fact that there needs to be discussion and clarification around these issues in the community. PD isn't going to do the heavy lifting so we have to take it upon ourselves to figure out Undocumented Changes to the game after each update, of which there have been dozens upon dozens. Popping in just to say the discussion if fruitless is pointless and contributes nothing to the debate wouldn't you say? Kind of like a little Chihuahua that barks fiercely at the big dog while wrapped up in a doggie coat and sitting in a purse.

Ok, and through these discussions, no concrete evidence is ever going to come out of them for the very reasons @LeGeNd-1 has stated. That's what I was agreeing with, with my point of view. Its physics, or even camber if you will, something that is just felt and cannot be seen. Yes, these discussions are interesting, but there is no way you are going to proof anything one way or the other, just too many variables. The discussions are good yes, but pointless in this case as far as trying to prove anything. How are you going to prove "feel"? To me, its just an opinion unless PD states otherwise. Discuss away, but you are not going to get any factual evidence to prove one way or the other through these discussions when it comes to physics, again, something that can only be felt. That's all I'm saying here.

 

[jules283]

I think I may have an answer for the physics change.

In a nutshell :

Version 1.15 - vehicle yaw is relative to driver.
Version 1.16 - vehicle yaw is relative to track.

And to fill out this idea :

Version 1.15 places driver at centre of gravity(or close) of car and any steering input rotates your point of view (POV) AND the car. However, any yaw due to tyre deflection rotates ONLY the car. The vehicle rotates under you! This suggests that your POV is often at an angle to the car body. I used to catch myself rotating slightly on my chair in an attempt to accommodate this movement. It resulted in a dissociated, disconnected feeling which I hated!

Version 1.16 rotates your POV with steering AND yaw, resulting in a very different feel. The cars feel more connected and weighty. Response and predictability seem improved and the game feels more like Gran Turismo to me.


I discovered this problem with GT6 last August and stopped playing (and posting here). It took a long time to realize what was happening and others just hadn't noticed. I think people adapted, but I could not. I returned for each DLC/VGT and tried one or two laps and then walked away again. But 1.16 really feels like GT again and I love it!

All the above is my belief/observation so feel free to disagree. The idea would explain why lap times are similar, as game physics have not really changed. It is the visual interface which has changed.

 

[Eugenizer]

Oh oh I just thought that maybe it also has something to do with the ffb settings... Don't know if I missed a Post wehre it was mentioned allready but for example I always have them on 10/10 you know in the Quick menu... The thought is since it is quite a descrete change in how it feels, maybe this could also be a reason why some don't feel it... And powersteering is off all the time too in my"setup". Also After further investigation I've done some drifting and to be honest, I wasn't that good in drifting whith my wheel as controllunit. 1st because of the lack of a handbreak and most because the wheel would not spin fast enough when you'd just let go (as the real Drift Guys do) so while my Hardware didn't change and the wheel obviously couldn't spin any faster I'm now way more in controll while drifting. And I don't think that I've improved that much, it's just more predictable. I'd suggest to try it for those who don't think there is a change... I've done nothing to my usual Drift cars and am now able to do much better... I think it's a good way to experience the change since wehre if not while drifting weightdistribution plays such a big Role? If you still can't feel any difference... Call it Placebo if you want... I for myself enjoy it as it is now. And that's all that matters. Hope all of you also don't forget to enjoy that game ;-) keep racing

 

[Parcells2]

The civility of this discussion goes against every experience Parcells has ever encountered on-line ever. What is wrong with you people?

 

[Polsixe]

Nor was I talking about camber working or not, I was giving you the context of the discussion around camber and why the discussion around it is necessary. If update 1.15 did fix camber, it would be obvious and worthy of discussion. It wouldn't boil down to an opinion, which is the point of the discussion, to remove the opinion and get to the facts.

Either way, doesn't change the fact that there needs to be discussion and clarification around these issues in the community. PD isn't going to do the heavy lifting so we have to take it upon ourselves to figure out Undocumented Changes to the game after each update, of which there have been dozens upon dozens. Popping in just to say the discussion if fruitless is pointless and contributes nothing to the debate wouldn't you say? Kind of like a little Chihuahua that barks fiercely at the big dog while wrapped up in a doggie coat and sitting in a purse.

For a complete non sequitur, when is Raquel Welch coming up on your avatar list?

 

[Johnnypenso]

For a complete non sequitur, when is Raquel Welch coming up on your avatar list?

I'm in Star Trek mode now in honour of Spock (R.I.P.)....Racquel will come a bit later....probably from 5 Million Years B.C.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm on the fence. I didn't notice anything and my lap times (in the identical car) seem unaffected. That said, after reading all the posts, it did seem there is a bit more bite laterally. Now, it seems the same again.

Maybe there was a lateral grip increase. This may have been offset by longitudinal grip values to keep times broadly the same. I don't have any drag racing times to compare against.

Is drifting more difficult on the same tires?

 

[Bhowe83]

I've modified the core physics of other Sims in the past, and I can assure you that if you base changes in inertia/weight transfer off of lap time you'll never see any much of a change. It's mostly feel based with changes in ride height and other suspension data when you make changes to inertia/transfer.

If you want a simple test that produces data without noise, I recommend looking at data between 1.15 and 1.16 using the follow method.

Load up an A-spec race, one where you have a rolling start and wide surface, and a race that starts you out at a decent speed.

If you're on a wheel, turn ffb off and keep the wheel at full lock before the start and until you hit something/leave the racing surface. Complete the lap/race and look at the data.

If .15 and .16 show different telemetry during the full lock at start sequence, then there has been a physics change.

 

[Griffith500]

@hasslemoff had difficulty uploading the Motec data, so PMd me. I only captured the FFT info, because that's how I drew my conclusions previously. Just a reminder on what that conclusion was: the input and reponse of the car to input changed between 1.15 and 1.16 for @Ridox2JZGTE 's laps.

I'm just going to post the charts with no explanation, refer to my previous post (mainly parts 2 and 3) for how I read them - I don't want my bias to get in the way.
I jest.

Note that corners are considerably shorter with this combo (MX5 TC at Riffelsee), about 1 - 2 seconds being a reliable mode value, corresponding to a steering and yaw rate wind-unwind frequency of 0.5 - 1 Hz.

Lap 1 is on 1.15
Lap 2 is an early lap on 1.16
Lap 3 is a later lap on 1.16

Lap 3 vs. Lap 1

Lap 2 vs. Lap 1

Lap 3 vs. Lap 2

I've attached the Motec exports below. (Thanks @hasslemoff)

 

[Freeman_Cruz]

I don't think Polyphony could change anything about the physics of the game without having to block the use of replays before the update.

GT replays only record the acceleration, braking and steering, everything else is reconstructed by those entries every time you see them.

If you change the parameters of physics engine, replays recorded would result in errors. I.e. that rushed near the wall now would be a direct crash.

Excuse the engrish.

 

[Griffith500]

I do not think Polyphony could change anything about the physics of the game without having to block the use of repetitions before the update.

GT repetitions only record the acceleration, braking and steering, everything else is reconstructed by those entries every time you see them.

If you change the parameters of physics engine, repetitions stock would result in errors. I.e. that rushed near the wall now would be a direct crash.

I read this as "repetition" meaning "replay".

You're right, PD must keep the old physics in the game - the replay identifies its version, and the game could look up the physics for that version in order to correctly reconstruct the physical events from the control inputs. A fun experiment might be to change that version identifier...
(But the reality is the replay will probably fail to load due to some other change, e.g. in the structure of the replay itself. I might look into it.)


This problem also exists for actual physics changes that PD have advertised; but "old" replays have always worked properly, to my knowledge.

So that implies the car data isn't patched so much as it's added to (if it's changed at all), or the physics parameters are pre-computed in a different way before the race / replay starts.

 

[hornet_burnout]

@hornet_burnout


If you want a REAL physics improvement, switch off ABS. Read up on it here on GTP. It doesn't exactly "trigger", it's a deceleration stabilizer that aids weight transfer as much as helping with wheel lock. If you want more "realistic" turn-in, turn it off. You need to mess with the BB and have a sensitive enough input device too.

I know and I will, as soon as I get a stiffer spring on the brake pedal. Otherwise I can't ride that edge when you're just about to lock up.

 

[jezboosted]

Grip and at least forward/backward weight transfer as far as I can tell are unchanged. I am a drag racer ( yes I know, the scum of the forums ) and there are some cars that are tuned right on the limit of either launching or bogging. When I say right on the limit, I mean if I go and change my launch gear to be 1 click taller the car will bog on the launch. For example the Diablo GT 00 and 98.

Now if grip or weight transfer had changed for either better or worse the outcome would be:

1. More grip/ More weight transfer - The car would now be bogging.

2. Less grip / Less weight transfer - I would be able to make my launch gear taller without bogging.

Neither of these conditions are showing themselves. The car still launches the same, I can't tweak it 1 click taller otherwise it bogs so therefore there mustn't be any changes to grip or to forward/backward weight transfer.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Grip and at least forward/backward weight transfer as far as I can tell are unchanged. I am a drag racer ( yes I know, the scum of the forums ) and there are some cars that are tuned right on the limit of either launching or bogging. When I say right on the limit, I mean if I go and change my launch gear to be 1 click taller the car will bog on the launch. For example the Diablo GT 00 and 98.

Now if grip or weight transfer had changed for either better or worse the outcome would be:

1. More grip/ More weight transfer - The car would now be bogging.

2. Less grip / Less weight transfer - I would be able to make my launch gear taller without bogging.

Neither of these conditions are showing themselves. The car still launches the same, I can't tweak it 1 click taller otherwise it bogs so therefore there mustn't be any changes to grip or to forward/backward weight transfer.

How many cars have you tested? Can you give a few more examples?

 

[jezboosted]

Hi @Johnnypenso and thanks for the reply.

Out of the 500+ cars I have drag tuned, only a handful of them rely on the gear you launch in to be pushed to its limit. This is mainly because they are 5 speeds and also because they have low torque and power or torque/power bands up high in the rev range.

If that doesn't make sense, what I mean is that the majority of cars are a quick shift into the next gear or even the gear after that (1-2 quick shift, 1-2-3 quick shift etc.). What this means is that in these circumstances you are only relying on the launch gear to get you to the next gear as quick as possible. It doesn't need to launch, grip and pull as best as it can.

So to answer your question, here are the other cars I have tested this with.

1. 1970 Ford Mustang Trans-Cammer
2. VW Beetle 1200 '66
3. VW Beetle 1100 '49
4. VW Schwimmwagen '42
5. VW Sambabus '62
6. Honda NSX-R Prototype LM Road car
7. Mario Andretti 1948 Hudson
8. BMW 507 '57
9. Fiat 500 R '72
10. Lancia Stratos '73
11. Alpine A110 1600S '72

 

[DolHaus]

I don't think the amount of weight being transferred has changed, merely the way the dampers are reacting to these weight shifts has changed slightly. When using lower damper rates the car seems to compress/rebound more actively than before, the damping seems less controlled and smooth. The best way I can think of describing it is that the suspension seems to be oscillating more naturally rather than just reacting in a linear fashion

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Grip and at least forward/backward weight transfer as far as I can tell are unchanged. I am a drag racer ( yes I know, the scum of the forums ) and there are some cars that are tuned right on the limit of either launching or bogging. When I say right on the limit, I mean if I go and change my launch gear to be 1 click taller the car will bog on the launch. For example the Diablo GT 00 and 98.

Now if grip or weight transfer had changed for either better or worse the outcome would be:

1. More grip/ More weight transfer - The car would now be bogging.

2. Less grip / Less weight transfer - I would be able to make my launch gear taller without bogging.

Neither of these conditions are showing themselves. The car still launches the same, I can't tweak it 1 click taller otherwise it bogs so therefore there mustn't be any changes to grip or to forward/backward weight transfer.

Grip does not change in 1.16 nor the amount of weight being transferred if you have the same exact car ( spec - weight/distribution and setup - spring/damper/gearing etc ). In a drag, you are basically using all available traction by getting the most of the weight being shifted to the rear as quickly as possible, the changes in 1.16 is subtle and more about the inertia and how the weight being shifted with better accuracy. When I drove the RUF CTR on both 1.15 and 1.16 ( same suspension and LSD as well as weight/distribution ), acceleration grip limit are the same ( I have to modulate the throttle anyway on comfort medium ), the difference were more on the braking and cornering as well as transition being smoother/accurate, thus I can better react to the car.

It is difficult to explain

 

[jezboosted]

Hi @Ridox2JZGTE and thanks for your reply as well.

What you are explaining makes complete sense and as a drag racer, braking and cornering is not something I tune for or even pay attention to

I wanted to show my findings as I thought it might have been relevant to what this discussion was about. After reading what you have just said, my tests look like they have nothing to do with the changes.

My apologies for misinterpreting.

 

[OdeFinn]

I'll put my cents on anti-roll-bars, after update they really do great work.
Now after several tunes what I have inspected and re-tuned to work on 1.16 main changes are on sway bars, some cars needed more after update, and some needed way different as pre update, like my CTR tune had ARB 7/7 and to get it work again just needed to drop those to 5/6 for keeping same body movements what I had it on pre update.
So weight transfer plays bigger role now.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hi @Ridox2JZGTE and thanks for your reply as well.

What you are explaining makes complete sense and as a drag racer, braking and cornering is not something I tune for or even pay attention to

I wanted to show my findings as I thought it might have been relevant to what this discussion was about. After reading what you have just said, my tests look like they have nothing to do with the changes.

My apologies for misinterpreting.

Dude your findings are way relevant and don't let anyone tell you any different. Isolating variables under controlled conditions is a tried and true way of proving or disproving certain principles, the key is really in understanding what principles your results apply to and what conclusions can or cannot be made from the testing. Your tests tend to show that there are no changes in peak longitudinal grip under hard acceleration and in the amount of weight that is transferred to the rear wheels during hard acceleration. This helps us to isolate the changes that may or may not have happened with the physics by eliminating this variable from the equation. We might also infer from these results that if the weight shifting back is the same, the weight shifting forward is the same as well unless of course PD only tinkered with the front end of cars for some reason. This relates to lap times for sure and how the car performs under hard braking and acceleration while circuit racing as well, and allows us to isolate variables in the suspension physics that might produce the results that some players are experiencing.

Your input is highly appreciated and very valuable:tup:👍