Views on this move

  • Thread starter Ashthebash
  • 441 comments
  • 19,867 views
Groundfish
So Gardens reverse...The uphill right hander leading onto the back straight.
You all know this turn. In forwards it’s the hairpin left turn five I think?
But in reverse it’s a decreasing radius turn. If you cut the entry to try to snag apex you’re losing tons of time.
It’s a common place for outbraking.
In a decreasing radius bend you cut the entry to dove to apex but your exit line has to turn so tight you have zero exit speed.
It’s a very similar situation on that turn. Just in opposite.
I’ve seen where people have complainef before there too.

For reference in forwards I won’t take the racing line if anyone’s within a second.

I think the turns very similar, just opposite, and wider with much more space to go side by side.
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I took that turn forward with another car .5 behind. That didn't go well. We collided and I spun, so instead of a P1 or P2 I ended up as p11.
And at first I was pissed but it was a matter of racing room. If I had given him space we would have kept on racing.
PS_App_20210305_033729.jpeg


And he didn't have overlap but he outbraked me.
 
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See if I was a steward and I saw the image @RacingGrandpa posted above, I would recommend and incident responsibility penalty to car #10 on the grounds of insufficient overlap at the time of turn in. Of course if you abandoned the corner there wouldn't have been an incident, but in this case, there was not a well established presence of the overtaking car and is therefore not entitled to that space.

This differs from the previous case as there was sufficient overlap and thus room should have been given.
 
Winnie847
This was from a 60k DR FIA lobby Wednesday night. He was close enough for a move, but he didn’t have overlap before braking or turn-in and outbraked himself. I’m not saying it was dirty, not at all, but I saw it coming and did the right thing. I could’ve turned in on him and gotten mad about it, but that would’ve been silly. This is good racing.

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I’ve been through that hundreds of times as well, sadly.
And you’re right it’s not dirty by design just ridiculously over optimistic.
Do you think you’d get called out with all those cars behind if you had chosen to go defensive with a little apex hold move?
The guys behind will get mad because now you’re holding everyone up., they get bunched, sr downs...
I mean yes you can see it coming but imo it’s the opposite of good racing.
You did about as well as you could there.
 
NevilleNobody
Very simple really, yet it seems to escape people. At the 100m board, you are in the process of getting ready to brake and turn in before the 50m board, .
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By "getting ready", I can only assume you mean mirror, signal, manoeuvre?

@Groundfish the reason the car comes slightly away from the edge of the track is the corner starts to tighten up at that point, as someone who has driven Interlagos as extensively as you say you should know that. I'm maintaining my arc because I want as late and as wide a turn in as I can possibly get (if you focus on the trees in the background rather than the track you'll clearly see I'm constantly rotating to the left at the same rate, with the intention to fully turn in about a car and a half width from the apex). Obviously, the tighter you are to the inside the later you turn in, so I've taken my position about a car's width down from the Porsche and want to hold that line, which being alongside I'm more than entitled to do. If you watch from the Porsche, the Porsche actually turns in so tight and early it's almost trying to go across the white concrete which would have likely cut the corner. Stills/frame by frame don't really show it but you'll see it from the video. He was turning in regardless and taking a line all over the kerb whether I was there or not, maybe hoping I'd done what was in @Winnie847 's video, or maybe he was deliberately turning in to me having had his pants pulled down and living up to his mountainous SR graph (which I'm sure you'll agree the following 30s of his race reflected with the ram on me then the deliberate spin of the Merc)

Edit to include something on your reply to Winnie

"Do you think you’d get called out with all those cars behind if you had chosen to go defensive with a little apex hold move?
The guys behind will get mad because now you’re holding everyone up., they get bunched, sr downs..."

Tough ain't it?! If Winnie wanted to hold the apex and keep the place that's up to him, he can't be worrying about everyone behind him and if they had a problem with him doing it, it's tough. Unfortunately that's racing sometimes, we all get held up if there's someone in front of us. It's a reason I often (like on Wednesday) pit earlier than planned
 
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Ashthebash
@Groundfish the reason the car comes slightly away from the edge of the track is the corner starts to tighten up at that point, as someone who has driven Interlagos as extensively as you say you should know that. I'm maintaining my arc because I want as late and as wide a turn in as I can possibly get (if you focus on the trees in the background rather than the track you'll clearly see I'm constantly rotating to the left at the same rate, with the intention to fully turn in about a car and a half width from the apex). Obviously, the tighter you are to the inside the later you turn in, so I've taken my position about a car's width down from the Porsche and want to hold that line, which being alongside I'm more than entitled to do.
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Thanks for explaining that and responding, for two reasons, one so I can tell those guys saying my objective reality statements were untrue to take a flying leap, and 2 it gives me a great chance to personally apologize to you @Ashthebash if you were in any way offended by any of my litany of postings, some of which might have been a little saucy.
Sorry man. I was wrong.
 
RacingGrandpa
I see your reasons but I think you are missing something. The Ferrari is only faster than the Porsche in the curves. His braking distance is maybe 15 meters shorter.
I agree that the Porsche turning in is a racing incident, but from the Ferraris point of view there is nothing dubious about this overtake, it's a textbook outbraking orchestead by a perfectly executed bait and switch.
If anything he was too polite.

And giving it back? Absolutely not. You give back a place that you won in an unfair way.
We're not handing out participation medals in racing. Let's not get there.

The biggest problem in this thread in my point of view is that the vast majority, vast I say, are in agreement that this is fair and a select few can't fathom this and try to use tactics like name calling and twisting words along with blatantly ignoring ever single proof they are not right.
The issue with the overtaking is long settled, it was 100% legal and fair albeit somewhat risky. But sim racing is the place to take risks, because they don't cost money or lives here.
So, the people that keeps calling this dirty even to the point of it justifying a revenge punt: I am absolutely certain you guys meet a overwhelming amount of "Dirty drivers" in the dailies.
I sure hope you refrain from revenge as it's very clear your definition of clean driving is nothing like the majority of players.
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The Ferrari and Porsche are both handling cars, so their top speed is quite similar. If you look in the fuel consumption sticky thread Ferrari is 272 kmh and Porsche is 269 kmh. Also Ferrari has slipstream and dirty air here, so their braking distance is gonna be even longer than usual. He could've braked a bit more and stuck a bit closer to the apex. But as you said the Porsche should also have awareness to expect that divebomb and not just turn in like that. So 50:50 like I said. Both drivers could've done more to avoid contact, and post collision behaviour could also have been better from BOTH sides.

The bait & switch/swerving is fine in my book (from both cars). It's what happened after that that's the problem.

My philosophy is, unless you're racing in the last lap of the championship for a tangible reward (e.g. world tour spot or world championship), you shouldn't do desperate moves. If you finish 9th instead of 10th, what difference does it make to your life exactly? If you're truly faster than the other guy, over a season you will have more points than him. When the situation is reversed the next time and you're the one under attack, you will be thankful that you didn't punt him the previous race. Unless you're Hizal/Fraga and you streak away from pole every race, there is more to be gained in this game from working together than being macho and thinking you're Senna "going for a gap" in every corner. I've come across lots of supposedly "dirty" drivers in Oceania, but I rarely had any run ins with any of them because I give them space and they remember it. Sure I've given up 1-2 places, but I know I also have kept 1-2 places in return (and probably more from other people getting taken out by the "dirty" driver while I just cruise past).

I hope that last paragraph isn't directed at me btw :lol: I even mentioned that I don't condone the revenge punt. Yes sim racing allows you to get away with a lot of things, but that doesn't mean you should treat it like Wreckfest or Burnout. I drive like I pay for all my car's damages. Other people might think that's too polite, but that's how I chose to race. There's a reason why my SR trace is flatter than Kansas :lol:

Anyway, this thread is 12 pages too long so I'll shut up. Everyone has their own way of racing at the end of the day 👍
 
mohitraina91
As someone relatively new to GT Sport mode, I've picked up quite a few tips from this thread. It's really good to see differing opinions on here, and I definitely can see the point both sides are trying to make.

Something to take to my next online races. :cheers:
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I’m happy others are able to take away a good bit from this discussion. The only thing I really took away from this is that the TPC Discord is a riot and I need to pull up a chair. :lol:
 
Groundfish
Thanks for explaining that and responding, for two reasons, one so I can tell those guys saying my objective reality statements were untrue to take a flying leap, and 2 it gives me a great chance to personally apologize to you @Ashthebash if you were in any way offended by any of my litany of postings, some of which might have been a little saucy.
Sorry man. I was wrong.
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Not offended, just annoyed at some (what I perceive as) ignorance and annoyed at some of the perceptions that I was somehow out of control. Don't know how much you've driven the Ferrari GT3 but I can tell you that when it doesn't want to kill you it's not very quick in a straight line but an absolute demon on the brakes, you have to play the strengths of your car.

So now we've established that contact was in no way inevitable from my move (which is my basis of a dirty move - that contact is inevitable). The move was late, was a dive, was a lunge (I've never disputed any of that), but wasn't out of control or missing the corner and was most definitely alongside at turn in, can we now just put it down to the fact that my mistake, the only mistake I made in that move was having faith in the driver ahead that he'd see it and act accordingly?

Yet I'll continue to have faith in the people I'm racing against, it makes for better racing. I trust that they will see a move and that they're not going to deliberately cause a collision, the same way that when I see a late move I leave room one way or another. Most collisions are caused by accident anyway, the nudge off I got in the FIA at T4 on the final lap was in no way deliberate, probably cost me P8 but it wasn't deliberate and I don't want to be crying about those kinds of things. Same as if I was the Aston driver in your move at the penultimate corner on L14 in your FIA race I wouldn't be crying about it. He left a little gap and you stuck your nose in there, bit of contact your front right to his left rear as he turned in but hey ho, that's racing. You were opportunistic in that event and he had left the door open

There's a similarity somewhere there
 
LeGeNd-1
The Ferrari and Porsche are both handling cars, so their top speed is quite similar. If you look in the fuel consumption sticky thread Ferrari is 272 kmh and Porsche is 269 kmh. Also Ferrari has slipstream and dirty air here, so their braking distance is gonna be even longer than usual. He could've braked a bit more and stuck a bit closer to the apex. But as you said the Porsche should also have awareness to expect that divebomb and not just turn in like that. So 50:50 like I said. Both drivers could've done more to avoid contact, and post collision behaviour could also have been better from BOTH sides.

The bait & switch/swerving is fine in my book (from both cars). It's what happened after that that's the problem.

My philosophy is, unless you're racing in the last lap of the championship for a tangible reward (e.g. world tour spot or world championship), you shouldn't do desperate moves. If you finish 9th instead of 10th, what difference does it make to your life exactly? If you're truly faster than the other guy, over a season you will have more points than him. When the situation is reversed the next time and you're the one under attack, you will be thankful that you didn't punt him the previous race. Unless you're Hizal/Fraga and you streak away from pole every race, there is more to be gained in this game from working together than being macho and thinking you're Senna "going for a gap" in every corner. I've come across lots of supposedly "dirty" drivers in Oceania, but I rarely had any run ins with any of them because I give them space and they remember it. Sure I've given up 1-2 places, but I know I also have kept 1-2 places in return (and probably more from other people getting taken out by the "dirty" driver while I just cruise past).

I hope that last paragraph isn't directed at me btw :lol: I even mentioned that I don't condone the revenge punt. Yes sim racing allows you to get away with a lot of things, but that doesn't mean you should treat it like Wreckfest or Burnout. I drive like I pay for all my car's damages. Other people might think that's too polite, but that's how I chose to race. There's a reason why my SR trace is flatter than Kansas :lol:

Anyway, this thread is 12 pages too long so I'll shut up. Everyone has their own way of racing at the end of the day 👍
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Intrigued in this, as I was in the Ferrari, what post-collision could I have done better? I didn't push him off, after contact he was still on track but he put his foot down and ran across the grass on the right running wide through T2 and I cut back. Had he concentrated on getting a tight T2 I probably wouldn't have been able to pass. Obviously at the time you have no way of knowing this exactly, but feeling I had been turned in to, why would or should I back off to keep the status quo? If that's what you're suggesting
 
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Groundfish
You purposely tried to disguise the move right?
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Yes, I called a dove to come down from the sky on his right hand side and take his gaze with its pure majesty as I switched lines

You can't disguise it, it's not like I can cover up his mirrors. I can however make him think I'm doing one thing and do another, unfortunately it's all in full view and while I can do it in such a way he can't react to close it off, I can't stop him seeing it

So don't even go there
 
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Ashthebash
You can't disguise it, it's not like I can cover up his mirrors. I can however make him think I'm doing one thing and do another, unfortunately it's all in full view and while I can do it in such a way he can't react to close it off, I can't stop him seeing it

So don't even go there
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Not all views people use have mirrors.
 
Ashthebash
And that's my fault... how??
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:) sorry just messin with ya a bit man.
I apologized and that’s sincere.
It doesn’t mean I worship Ferrari or late moves t1 Interlagos no matter who makes them.
Honestly thought thread was done and in my weird way was trying to poke fun, not continue the thread.

Cheers man :)
Again I’m am truly sorry my stupid ocd kicked into gear over the overtake you shared with us, and spun outta control.
It was a fine move. The 911 drivers an idiot, even if he is apparently my own countrymen given my avatar haha.
Seriously my sincerest apologies for creating this train wreck.
 
Ashthebash
Intrigued in this, as I was in the Ferrari, what post-collision could I have done better? I didn't push him off, after contact he was still on track but he put his foot down and ran across the grass on the right running wide through T2 and I cut back. Had he concentrated on getting a tight T2 I probably wouldn't have been able to pass. Obviously at the time you have no way of knowing this exactly, but feeling I had been turned in to, why would or should I back off to keep the status quo? If that's what you're suggesting
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Read my previous post...which was buried in page 8 after a few hours :lol:

It's a bit of a grey move and if I'm in your position I would give the place back. Personally, I make it my responsibility to avoid contact with anyone, even if it's the other guy's mistake, just to avoid any fallout post race and in the future. Some people think that's too conservative, but that's how I roll. It's consistent, easy to apply rule and you can control it 100% (instead of expecting the other guy to take responsibility to avoid contact).
 
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LeGeNd-1
Read my previous post...which was buried in page 8 after a few hours :lol:

It's a bit of a grey move and if I'm in your position I would give the place back. Personally, I make it my responsibility to avoid contact with anyone, even if it's the other guy's mistake, just to avoid any fallout post race and in the future. Some people think that's too conservative, but that's how I roll. It's consistent, easy to apply rule and you can control it 100% (instead of expecting the other guy to take responsibility to avoid contact).
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If I know I've made a mistake and caused contact or badly impeded another driver, I'll redress as soon as it's safe to do it but if there's any doubt about who caused it, any doubt at all, I'll carry on and check the replay afterwards. At best, you're fully vindicated. At worst, you send a sincere apology and move on to the next race a little bit wiser. With the OP's pass, I wouldn't look at the replay because I had any doubts about it. I'd look at it to pat myself on the back.

I've watched the pass a few times and I'm still not sure if I'd go for it myself but I wouldn't bias my judgment based on that.
 
kilesa4568
you send a sincere apology
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This bit is most important, just pressing the automated message is lazy, I've seen one top split player who presses that then immediately quits before you have time to acknowledge it, that's not an apology it's a total lack of respect. Taking the time to type it in manually shows that you actually care about what happened and you can try to explain why even if it's just a "Sorry, totally missed my braking point".
 
AfraidRacer
@Groundfish @NevilleNobody What do you guys think of this?
Skip to 2:30.




Join us! :cheers:
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Didn’t like 3 people already post this?
Anyways Ricciardo is literally nose to nose here, before anyone’s turning in whether we are defining turning in by the actual turn in or by some other way.
A8587FD7-03C3-45D5-B49A-4DA36AAA58D6.png

That’s literally nose to nose. I dunno the situation tires condition etc but clearly he has this inside at this point. Like I personally did in my overtake I shared.
His opponent now must choose either fall in behind losing minimum time or fight and perhaps create an incident.
Further we see Ricciardo holding inside arc of the turn nicely and getting to the curb.
C1C07E5D-AED8-4828-9A13-26C7C4AC7863.png
5BB6DE76-AEB6-4844-9BC6-FDB8032AABE9.png


It’s my guess actual f1 has a bit more nuance to the braking than gts...
What do I think?
I think that move came off without incident and was pretty cut and dry, personally.
I think these are professionals at the worlds highest level. They know what they are doing.
Nice move there, again no idea of the race situation...
Again. When you overtake this way, everyone involved loses minimum time.
If you lunge late, forcing your opponent to slow and avoid, if it’s a grey area move, and you make a habit of making moves that way people might get irritable, even if the move made was a valid one. Ultimately when you overtake it’s better to do it in a way that’s least painful to all. If you do it in a way that costs a lot of time coming in late, sure maybe it’s fine and all in a technical sense but it doesn’t mean you’ll be loved for it.
 
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