Wed 20:30-21:30 UK Time - CLOSED - Suspended until further noticePS4
- Thread starter Sick Cylinder
- 2,573 comments
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- 5,284
- Sick_Cylinder
Please could someone post up the finishing position of @beachboy6658 (beachboy66) - he left before the results screen came up. I can't update the points table without this result. Thanks
- 439
- United Kingdom
- 439
- United Kingdom
I think people were expecting the same as last week to be honest, seemed like a lot of drivers set off really quick, caught up, and then had to pile the brakes on. Didn't help that a few cars weren't allowing the cars on the inside line to come across in front. It's what caused the accident initially and I noticed Tav knocking into someone who wouldn't give him room as well.
It was a lot better at the back, it seemed the second class set off a bit slower, so it was more controlled. We even avoided the big accident, which we couldn't have done if we were going quicker.
- 3,277
- Whitehaven Cumbria Englan
- johnwells69
Think first corner Watkins Glen, bit of bottle neck, maybe that's what happened. People started off quick then, slowed down, so was approaching Sick, nothing could do too afforded contact. So we had to pit on the next lap too fix damage, with Sick and Harsk.
Next week coould be the same, at Laguna Seca, so may be not over take after Andretti Hairpin, track narrow too down the hill, at start.
Next week coould be the same, at Laguna Seca, so may be not over take after Andretti Hairpin, track narrow too down the hill, at start.
- 577
- Lisbon
- Tavilha
Can't remember if we ever tried rolling starts with formation lap (without in longer tracks like La Sarthe or the Nordschleife).
Personal opinion: we should try that as it is considered safer, even if you get to T1 with a bit more speed. Maybe single file is safer than double. It may seem boring, but it's not - it builds up a bit of tension for the start and adds to the fun if we get it right.
EDIT: while keeping the no overtaking rule until T1 is cleared.
Vintage racing series use that starting procedure almost everywhere, I think.
Personal opinion: we should try that as it is considered safer, even if you get to T1 with a bit more speed. Maybe single file is safer than double. It may seem boring, but it's not - it builds up a bit of tension for the start and adds to the fun if we get it right.
EDIT: while keeping the no overtaking rule until T1 is cleared.
Vintage racing series use that starting procedure almost everywhere, I think.
- 672
- Boxberg Baden
- Simba2009Lora
We had formation lap and I can remember some of us had to start off track or the AI caused accidents then you have to start with a penalty.
Manual formation lap is very tricky because you have to follow rules nobody knows exactly because they are not officialy defined. Everything we know is speculative and there will be penalties, drive-throughs and disqualifikations nobody will understand.
Maybe we could do our own formation lap: Start the race with standing start the one round with no overtaking but at 70 to 60% racing pace and the true start will be at the beginning of round 2
PS I really don´t like the reduced speed of 100 to 120 km/h
Manual formation lap is very tricky because you have to follow rules nobody knows exactly because they are not officialy defined. Everything we know is speculative and there will be penalties, drive-throughs and disqualifikations nobody will understand.
Maybe we could do our own formation lap: Start the race with standing start the one round with no overtaking but at 70 to 60% racing pace and the true start will be at the beginning of round 2
PS I really don´t like the reduced speed of 100 to 120 km/h
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- 6,521
- Shropshire
- IfAndOr
Was there a problem at the start? Funnily enough I didn't see much of anything again! 
Observations.
1) Not everyone understands the rules.
2) Even if you understand the rules there is a natural tendency to go on green (or beep).
3) The damage is on. Start line incidents would often be less troubling if the cars were maybe not pointing in the right direction but were undamaged.
4) Starting just after the first corner doesn't really work. It can cause a rush to the corner that bunches everyone up, even more so than on the grid line sometimes, so causes its own problems. You need a straight section really.
Oh, by the way I enjoyed the race. Good scrap LC and Beachboy. Again sorry for any contact BB.
Observations.
1) Not everyone understands the rules.
2) Even if you understand the rules there is a natural tendency to go on green (or beep).
3) The damage is on. Start line incidents would often be less troubling if the cars were maybe not pointing in the right direction but were undamaged.
4) Starting just after the first corner doesn't really work. It can cause a rush to the corner that bunches everyone up, even more so than on the grid line sometimes, so causes its own problems. You need a straight section really.
I really liked the tension building single file formation laps we did but I can understand these can take up race time. And because they over a complete lap sometimes caused further incidents on any tighter sections.
So a suggestion for a sort of a manual rolling start safety formation thingy.
A grid start. Form up in qualification order calmly at say no more than 60mph keeping a clear space between cars, go through the first corner (or corner complex) in single file, continue at 60mph until all the cars have cleared the corner(s), accelerate to race pace when the pole sitter is ready - which might not be straight away.
The person on pole will have the luxury of accelerating at a point when he's ready (building tension and maybe trying to catch those behind out) but have the responsibility of making sure that all the cars are at least clear of the first corner before hitting the throttle. The pace would ideally be increased on a straighter section of track but that's up to Mr Pole. On the more complex circuits it might be sensible to continue at the slower pace anyway until a less complex section is entered.
With the pole sitter controlling the start there isn't a fixed point where everyone is "aiming for" so it should, in theory, string everyone out just enough to prevent problems but still be tight enough for closer racing.
I'd switch the damage to visual. Performance impacting was introduced to try and reduce contact, but judging by the recent starts it hasn't really and often causes more trouble over our short 30 minute races.
Thoughts and amendments?
Now getting everyone the acknowledge any new rules is another thing!
I might add to this post as my brain churns over. It's a slow process.
So a suggestion for a sort of a manual rolling start safety formation thingy.
A grid start. Form up in qualification order calmly at say no more than 60mph keeping a clear space between cars, go through the first corner (or corner complex) in single file, continue at 60mph until all the cars have cleared the corner(s), accelerate to race pace when the pole sitter is ready - which might not be straight away.
The person on pole will have the luxury of accelerating at a point when he's ready (building tension and maybe trying to catch those behind out) but have the responsibility of making sure that all the cars are at least clear of the first corner before hitting the throttle. The pace would ideally be increased on a straighter section of track but that's up to Mr Pole. On the more complex circuits it might be sensible to continue at the slower pace anyway until a less complex section is entered.
With the pole sitter controlling the start there isn't a fixed point where everyone is "aiming for" so it should, in theory, string everyone out just enough to prevent problems but still be tight enough for closer racing.
I'd switch the damage to visual. Performance impacting was introduced to try and reduce contact, but judging by the recent starts it hasn't really and often causes more trouble over our short 30 minute races.
Thoughts and amendments?
Now getting everyone the acknowledge any new rules is another thing!
I might add to this post as my brain churns over. It's a slow process.
Oh, by the way I enjoyed the race. Good scrap LC and Beachboy. Again sorry for any contact BB.
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- 439
- United Kingdom
That sounds similar to what I suggested a while back so I agree with you
Only thing I can think of is how does the leader know once all cars have cleared the first corner? The draw distance isn't far enough to be able to check in the mirrors and not everyone has the map on screen. Just wondered if I'm missing something.
I'm with you in the damage front, we're not professional racers and they often have accidents and get tangled up with each other, it's a small wonder we don't have more!
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- 6,521
- Shropshire
- IfAndOr
Yeah that is a problem without the map. Then I suppose the driver would just have to be sensible and try to gauge when to go. Better later than sooner would be the choice.
An alternative would be for Sick to give us a start point sometime after the first corner. But then the problem is that drivers would tend to accelerate to this point and bunch up. Whereas in my idea they don't quite know when to accelerate.
There's room for improvement. Or complete rejection.
Oh sorry. I see various suggestions here and there and they all get mixed up. I expect there's a bit of others ideas too.
- 439
- United Kingdom
Oh sorry. I see various suggestions here and there and they all get mixed up. I expect there's a bit of others ideas too.
Haha, it wasn't a complaint at all!
How about Sick sends a message to the person on pole after qualifying? I don't think he does enough, he needs more stuff to do...
I know I’m new, but for me this suggestion is the best. Unless we go on green nearly everything else in my mind is going to cause trouble. Last night, whilst preparing to pull away slowly, I found myself trying to play catch up with the front row. I hadn’t anticipated they’d move that fast.
I’d rather loose 3 minutes of race time to a controlled single file formation lap. Pole sitter dictates pace. Once past the start finish line at the end of the first lap everything is fair game. You’re going to be single file at that point, reducing first corner incidents.
For me it’s either this, or just go on green. Everyone races clean here, and I think it would reduce any confusion.
I get the whole start procedure, no overtaking till the first corner, on the road races. But for circuits I think you are at risk of complicating things. As a newcomer I definitely find it challenging, between the sensible rule making that goes on here, on this forum, versus the frankly outrageous track limit / race rule penalties that the game imposes. There’s a lot to remember.
Simple is best!
- 5,284
- Sick_Cylinder
I'm going to raise a message thread to discuss starting procedures so we don't get too bogged down in this thread. I'm not sure why we've had trouble recently after a long spell of things working well!
Edit - GTPlanet will only allow 10 participants so I have sent the message to a limited number of people from the Monday and Wednesday series. We will feed back to the threads later.
Edit - GTPlanet will only allow 10 participants so I have sent the message to a limited number of people from the Monday and Wednesday series. We will feed back to the threads later.
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- 94
- Poland
It seems to me that the procedure is becoming more and more complicated ... Can not we just start racing right after the start? I know there is a risk of the first corner, but... we all respect each other and everybody knows what and when to do in the first corner, to avoid a catastrophe ... Now there are overtaking, sudden braking and other suprises. I am never sure what the driver will do in front of me. It's not natural.
Just saying...
Of course I will follow any agreed procedure, but this is my personal opinion.
Just saying...
Of course I will follow any agreed procedure, but this is my personal opinion.
- 3,277
- Whitehaven Cumbria Englan
- johnwells69
Incident at start Simba hit Tav, Shaun, hit Joe, Upuant, had to brake hard, so did Sick, so was nowhere for me to go.
- 6,521
- Shropshire
- IfAndOr
@Sick Cylinder - What's the smoked perspex attachment on the 250 GT's bonnet for? It baffles me. I expect you'll know.
- 439
- United Kingdom
Just had this video recommended to me, fantastic angle that allows you to see everything going on inside and outside the car.
What's surprising to me is the amount of steering angle he's applying through the corners, I felt like I was overdriving the front tyres when I was doing that in the last two races... now I know that the car likes that apparently. Another thing is the couple of times he applied more angle mid-corner, presumably to counteract the understeer i'd been feeling after turn in. Amazing the detail that they got in this game.
Also, after looking at the shifter position, I feel a shifter mod coming on once I've finished the wheel. I've got a polished aluminium ball on at the moment, but I think I'm going to have a look at extending the shaft. I highly recommend it as a mod, really easy to do and adds so much more positivity to the shifting due to the extra weight. Would work on a G29 as well.
Right, that's enough talk about balls and shafts for one evening. Enjoy your weekend guys.
What's surprising to me is the amount of steering angle he's applying through the corners, I felt like I was overdriving the front tyres when I was doing that in the last two races... now I know that the car likes that apparently. Another thing is the couple of times he applied more angle mid-corner, presumably to counteract the understeer i'd been feeling after turn in. Amazing the detail that they got in this game.
Also, after looking at the shifter position, I feel a shifter mod coming on once I've finished the wheel. I've got a polished aluminium ball on at the moment, but I think I'm going to have a look at extending the shaft. I highly recommend it as a mod, really easy to do and adds so much more positivity to the shifting due to the extra weight. Would work on a G29 as well.
Right, that's enough talk about balls and shafts for one evening. Enjoy your weekend guys.
- 5,284
- Sick_Cylinder
If you look in one of @John Wells brilliant in car shots, you can see that it is in front of the driver - it is an air deflector which I believe was intended to reduce air pressure on the drivers side windscreen wiper and therefore enable the wiper to retain its effectiveness at very high speed. One was also fitted on the Lister Costin Coupe which raced at Le Mans in 1963.
On open cars from this period you sometimes see a small curved Perspex deflector attached to the screen - this is known as a visor cup and deflects high pressure air over the drivers head.
On the Ferraris from this period the gearstick is very long - the ball shaped shift knob was deliberately positioned high up so that the hand moves directly across from the wheel without altering its bend. On a modern car the shift knob is positioned so that the arm retains its bend, but arcs down and across. When I made my shifter console I took measurements from a range of sporty cars from Porsche, BMW etc. and was slightly surprised to find that they were all virtually identical and result in the hand falling naturally onto the shift knob from the wheel when the gearbox is in neutral - this is probably not surprising as car makers now use the science of ergonomics. There was a lot of variation in 1960 with some cars having very poorly placed shifters.
I notice that the 250 GTO in the video is one of the much rarer (but less attractive and less desirable) models with the later body shape.
I'm currently reading an excellent book by the Belgian Paul Frere who won Le Mans in 1960 - he mentions the understeer of GT cars as in your video - if it was a slow corner he would provoke a slight drift using the brakes. I'm hoping to get a copy of his 1963 book on race driving theory.
You may have seen this video before - I re-watch it from time to time - it's the amazing Kenny Brack setting pole on a damp track in a GT40:
- 439
- United Kingdom
Wow, that is exactly the technique I ended up using... brake a little deeper into the corner than normal and leave the turn in a fraction late as a result and the back end comes round lovely. The only thing you have to combat then is the mid-corner understeer that happens when the weight transfer balances out, the same adjustments that are in the video. It really does astonish me how it translates.
So I guess you could say it's a baffle that baffled Paul!
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