What does America have against Mexico?

[Gonz013]

Public school is a joke though, it didn't prepare me for college one bit and I was in very upper level classes. The few "gen ed" classes I had to take I didn't show up for most of the time and when I did I would listen to my MP3 player, read a novel, or sleep. I walked out of high school with a 3.9 GPA and I didn't even try. Now in college I have to actually do work (not complaining) and I'm only getting a 3.5 GPA.

Public schools spend their money so foolishly that it's sad. In my history class out text books still had maps of the Soviet Union in them, this was in 2004. This is coming from a school in Oakland County, Michigan, one of the 10 richest counties in America.

A similar thing happens here. The public schools are generally underfunded, but spend it poorly and with little accountability when they get funding increases.

Apparently, if they spend less than what they are allocated, they get less the next year, so there is an incentive for them to waste any left over money to ensure next year they get same/ more

 

[SS69]

Yep. They should learn English, they should pay taxes, they should start the citizenship process. No problem... except the US doesn't actually want that.

The US should take every single illegal and take them back to their country of origin.

But the US WONT... even if they could do it overnight.

Doing that would leave a vaccum that would need to be filled by LEGAL immigrants- the ones with voting rights that are entitled to be paid more.

Does the US government actually want that? Its in the US' interest to keep the illegals, so they can get the crap pay and do the crap jobs.

Well, it's irrational to think we can get rid of them all, and that's not neccessarily what I want. There are many now that have been here long enough to be eligible for citizenship, yet they still refuse to go through legal channels. There are other things we can do to help the situation. Like placing fines on companies that hire them. Do things that give companies little incentive to hire them.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Maybe it's cause the illegal ones don't pay taxes.

 

[Joey D]

I really hate when foreign people think they have an understanding of how America works. I do not make an attempt to know how issues in other countries work so why must they armchair run a country they don't live in?

The US would love to have them as legal, tax paying citizens. The government wants any and all money they can squeeze out of the citizens because Congressmen need to make a stupid amount of money and drive big Lincolns. Also we need to support blowing the hell out of third world nations.

The US also wants to send them back to their country of origin, which they should. If you are illegally here you need to get the hell out whether it be voluntarily or by force. And by getting rid of them wouldn't leave a hole in the economy, there is a large enough unemployment population that we could fill those jobs. In Michigan we have people with engineering degrees working for 5 something an hour at fast food restaurants, I'm pretty sure some of these guys would rather cut grass or some other menial job for a little bit more.

 

[Gonz013]

No that's actually a really good point. I just think the system is flawed. I wouldnt even mind so much If I didnt feel like my money was going to waste. You speak of paying so it lowers the "dumbass" population. I'm paying taxes and I'm still getting dumbasses, when I could be getting them for free. I feel like I'm getting ripped off.

I'd be happy to pay a little more in taxes and improve the education system.
The less dumbasses the better.

 

[a6m5]

You speak of paying so it lowers the "dumbass" population. I'm paying taxes and I'm still getting dumbasses, when I could be getting them for free. I feel like I'm getting ripped off.

Well, just remember that it actually could be a lot worse. But yes, I understand your point, and I do agree, like I was also telling Joey.

AApparently, if they spend less than what they are allocated, they get less the next year, so there is an incentive for them to waste any left over money to ensure next year they get same/ more

It's exactly the same here. Just figures.....

 

[SS69]

What bothers me is that in these "protests" there are mostly legal citizens. They fail to understand. ITS NOT YOUR RACE OR COUNTRY, ITS YOUR LEGAL STATUS!! If a person is legal, yay, we love them. Its the legal ones that we have a quarell with. I would think that the immigrants that came here legally would be more upset at the illegal ones than natural born americans are.

I remember when the first protests happend here, a reporter did a street interview with some girl. This is roughly how it went:

Reporter: So why are you out here?

Dumbass teenager who's not even illegal: Oh, bush is stupid, and we disagree with him.

Reporter: But, Bush is on your side.


Dumbass teenager who's not even illegal: Oh....WELL NOBODY TOLD ME THAT?!?


I commenced to reaching through the television and uppercutting her right in the ovaries.

Hundreds of kids left school to protest, and they didn't even have a goddamn clue as to what they were protesting. They just didn't want to go to the school that I'm paying for.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Maybe it's cause the illegal ones don't pay taxes.

But that's just it. Some do. Their federal taxes, about 10-12% of their pay, are taken out. But, it only reaches the Federal Government. The State and Local Governments get screwed. The Federal Government gets the benefit from illegal immigration via the taxes they collect and keep. Yes, they get to keep it. They don't give back SS money and federal taxes to illegal immigrants, so they thought. But, they're starting to recognize they are paying for it by needing to supply the states, with serious illegal immigration problems, with more money to help combat the problem.

As a state, we California, and other states, cannot afford it anymore. This is the reason we have such a difficult time getting anything properly done about the problem with illegal immigration. At least the current government officials are starting to recognize the problem and are starting to do something about it. Much more needs to be done.

 

[Gonz013]

I really hate when foreign people think they have an understanding of how America works. I do not make an attempt to know how issues in other countries work so why must they armchair run a country they don't live in?

When you say America, which country are you referring to?
Last time I looked, there were lost of countries in America. I have lived in a couple of different countries in "America", including the US, so I'm not completely ignorant of how the US works (or how its supposed to work).

I'm entitled to an opinion, regardless of where I am in the world, aren't I?

The fact that you don't take an interest in what else is happening in the world is one of the reasons the US gets such a bad reputation world-wide.

 

[Joey D]

Wow, are you that desperate? What America do you think? I was thinking about the one on the moon. Or maybe the America that has the US in front of the title.

You can have your opinions but you look like an idiot if you are trying to armchair from the other side of the world. If you don't live here everyday how do you know how it works? I take an interest in the rest of the world but I don't live in the rest of the world, I live in one country and I can't possibly know everything about every other country now can I?

 

[Gonz013]

Wow, are you that desperate? What America do you think? I was thinking about the one on the moon. Or maybe the America that has the US in front of the title.

Gees, relax...
I was just pointing out that someone from Canada or Chile could just as easily call themselves "American", the same way someone from Chad or Niger can call themselves "African".

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

If employers would pay illegals equally as much as they do legal residents, the whole job issue would dissolve. I'm sure the immigrants would love the higher pay, and there would be no more incentive to hire them over anyone else.

However, implementing it would be tricky.

I have no problem with anyone who wishes to come to the US. I just want them to do so legally. For someone to sneak in and take a job beacuse they simply will work for half the pay, and then not pay taxes on the money they do make, and soak up welfare, simply is not fair to those who bothered came here legally, get a job on the books, pay their taxes, and play by the rules like everyone else.

 

[Barracuda]

When you say America, which country are you referring to?
Last time I looked, there were lost of countries in America. I have lived in a couple of different countries in "America", including the US, so I'm not completely ignorant of how the US works (or how its supposed to work).

I'm entitled to an opinion, regardless of where I am in the world, aren't I?

The fact that you don't take an interest in what else is happening in the world is one of the reasons the US gets such a bad reputation world-wide.

Last time i checked, The U.S is the only country that is referred to as America. When someone says "Im going to America" that almost always means they're going to 'The United States of America'

They're aren't different countries in America, but there a different countries in north and south America

 

[Solid Lifters]

The fact that you don't take an interest in what else is happening in the world is one of the reasons the US gets such a bad reputation world-wide.

Wow, are you way off the mark with that statement.

Don't mean to interlope in your discussion; I just needed to point that out to you.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Gees, relax...
I was just pointing out that someone from Canada or Chile could just as easily call themselves "American", the same way someone from Chad or Niger can call themselves "African".

While technically true, they don't. If anything, they would refer to themselves as "North American" or "South American", because those are the actual name of the continents. It would be like a French person calling themselves " 'Pean". "American" refers to the country.

 

[Gonz013]

Wow, are you way off the mark with that statement.

Don't mean to interlope in your discussion; I just needed to point that out to you.

Thanks, but just clarify what I'm off the mark about.
-Taking an interest in the rest of the world?
-US' bad rep around the world?

Don't get me wrong- I love going to the US, and I love the fundamental democratic Ideals that the US championed from the day the Bill of Rights was first penned.

But I can't tell you how often you guys get badmouthed (rightly or wrongly) for being out of touch with the rest of the planet/ not knowing anything about the rest of the world.

Personally, I think its short-sighted and ignorant to paint everyone with the same brush, but the stereotypes of the fat, loud, ignorant "yankee" shouting "U-S-A, U-S-A" are out there and very much alive.

We had several US exchange students at my Uni a few years ago, and they were shocked at the attitudes towards the US.

They had honestly assumed that the US was "God's country" and everyone wanted to live there or be like them, that everyone would look up to them.

 

[a6m5]

Last time i checked, The U.S is the only country that is referred to as America. When someone says "Im going to America" that almost always means they're going to 'The United States of America'

They're aren't different countries in America, but there a different countries in north and south America

I can agree with that. I grew up in another country, and "America" was pretty much the short for "United States of America".

 

[SS69]

Gees, relax...
I was just pointing out that someone from Canada or Chile could just as easily call themselves "American", the same way someone from Chad or Niger can call themselves "African".

Technically I suppose someone could, but do they ever? Use a little common sense.

 

[Gonz013]

While technically true, they don't. If anything, they would refer to themselves as "North American" or "South American", because those are the actual name of the continents. It would be like a French person calling themselves " 'Pean". "American" refers to the country.

By your argument then, it shouldn't be "United States of America"
it should be "United States of North America" and you should call yourself "North American".

"America" or the "Americas" usually applies to both North and South together.

But just to kill this argument in semantics: I accept the common usage of "American" refers to a US citizen - I was just trying to ****-stir.

 

[Joey D]

Americans aren't the only one who aren't intuned with the rest of the world. When I was in Europe for the most part people only seemed to know the America they see in the media. Everyone is out of touch when it isn't their own country.

And if you are American you live in the USA, that's how we refer to ourselves and I think if you look American up in the dictionary you will see that is what people in the US call themselves. You wouldn't say I'm a Statian or something stupid like that.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Thanks, but just clarify what I'm off the mark about.
-Taking an interest in the rest of the world?
-US' bad rep around the world?

Don't get me wrong- I love going to the US, and I love the fundamental democratic Ideals that the US championed from the day the Bill of Rights was first penned.

But I can't tell you how often you guys get badmouthed (rightly or wrongly) for being out of touch with the rest of the planet/ not knowing anything about the rest of the world.

So if you don't share that sentiment, why did you state it as if it was your opinion?

It also doesn't help that those who think all Americans are ignorant of the world, are too biased to actually take the time to realize that most of us are just as well versed as they. It's just the dumb ones are the most noticeable/convenient to fit stereotype.

By your argument then, it shouldn't be "United States of America"
it should be "United States of North America" and you should call yourself "North American".

If "America" was named after the continent, that would be true. But it isn't. The North and South demoninations are relatively new. Plus, Canada and Mexico aren't states.

 

[YSSMAN]

Obviously this issue has been spear-headed by a person who neither knows what the hell he is talking about, and another who isn't quite from here, but doesn't have the best understanding of what America is like.

Quite simply, your opinions are valid, but you are being way too hopeful for our country. You've got to remember that there are a lot of pissed-off people in this country who have had their jobs swept-out beneath them by some illigal who gets paid a 1/3 as much as they do and only does 6/8ths as good of a job?

Would someone like to tell me how thats a good thing?

So, the illegals get the job that would have been an American's, and what happens with the money? That money goes straight back to Mexico, no taxes taken out, no money spent to stimulate the economy in that community... The money goes in hand, and across the border.

Would someone care to tell me how that is a good thing?

So lets forget about the money issue alone at the moment.... What about the people who come across the border just to have children so they can stay in the US? Is that fair to their children? How about the social medicine programs that have to pay for the child's livelihood and its parents as well? With so many impoverished Americans out there, would that money not be better spent on our own people? Beyond that, these kids walk around in the US thinking that they are entitled to special treatment because they are immigrants, what for? Because you're 'different,' because you can speak a different language? What?

Would someone care to explain to my why the child birthing is a good thing?

What about the crime rates. Illegal immigrants, and the children of illegal immigrants are quickly becoming a social group bound for illegal activities through gangs, drugs, violence, and worst of all illegal motoring. Just a few weeks ago here in Grand Rapids a young lady was killed while at a stop sign after a truck piloted by a drunk-driving Illegal plowed into the back of the car she was riding in. Her boyfriend was seriously injured, and so too were the others, and yet she had to die because this drunken illegal got to get a license in Michigan? One can't count out the gangs that have begun to pop-up here in relatively peaceful Grand Rapids, headed by these immigrants as well... A guy was stabbed across the street from where I work a few months back, kids are getting shot at skating rinks, fights are breaking out at Bus stops. Its not just your average punk kids with problems, it is the illegal crowd too...

Would someone care to tell me why this is a good thing?

---

What it comes down to is this: If you're coming to America legally (that is being documented, processed, pay your taxes, live by the law, etc), I'm more than happy to call you a fellow citizen. But when you're hoping the border and abusing a system we have in place to help AMERICANS, thats a problem. Even more troubling is the calls for these illegals to be made citizens when there are millions of people trying to come to our country, many of which have been waiting for DECADES, and are choosing to come here for political reasons.

...Quite frankly, I'd rather have people coming to our country from China or Pakistan, legally, to remove themselves from the troubles in their own lands...

But the border issue isn't just about American versus Mexican, it is a security issue as well. Do people not understand how easy it would be for some person wishing harm upon the US to cross this border? It is part of the reason why we have placed the National Guard along the border, why we are increasing the number of Border Patrol guards, increasing surveillance of the border, and building the fence.

...Thus far, it has worked. The Border Patrol has reported that there has been a significant drop in the interception of illegals, and CNN's reporting on the border has showed that fewer illegals are attempting to cross, fearing what will happen to them. Good, quite frankly, they should fear what would happen to them. They are violating American sovereignty by crossing the borders illegally, and it needs to be stopped...

99.9% of Americans would accept these people (from whatever country they are coming from) if they came to our country legally, attempted to speak our language and assimilate into our culture, pay their taxes, and follow the laws of the nation.

...My two cents...

 

[Gonz013]

If "America" was named after the continent, that would be true. But it isn't. The North and South demoninations are relatively new. Plus, Canada and Mexico aren't states.

I thought this part of the discussion was dead...
America IS the name of BOTH continents together, aka Americas.
You are right that the North and South denominations came later, but the original name applies to both continents.
And if you want to get technical, the earliest map shows the name "America" written where Brazil is Today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas

http://www.uhmc.sunysb.edu/surgery/broome.html

 

[Sage]

Yay, I get to argue against Danoff for once!

Aside from security concerns, entitlement programs, and black market labor, I don't see a problem with it either. But those are big issues.

For security, I don’t really understand what the issue is. I’m all for people passing drugs and guns across the border, since they shouldn’t be regulated in the first place. And I don’t buy the terrorism argument, since the 9/11 terrorists did plenty of damage while being here legally.

Correct me if I’m off-base, but I think your arguments about entitlement programs and black market labor can be combined into one point, because I suspect that you have no intrinsic problem with people working off the books, and I suspect that you have no intrinsic problem with people evading taxes (at least our current nasty-ass tax scheme), but you probably take issue with people not paying taxes and then turning around and using social services.

If I’ve summed up your position correctly, then I offer the following thought experiment: Let’s pretend for a moment that these government-created issues don’t exist. Now, you would be all for letting any immigrant come in, correct?

Now, let’s include the fact that the government has created so many problems with social services and the IRS and what not. Why, in principle, should this change your position on letting all immigrants in? Yes, there’s a pragmatic difference, but that’s how a Utilitarian would approach it.

Basically, you can break down my argument like this: wouldn’t you rather have something intrinsically good (free-for-all immigration) exacerbate the problems of something bad (social services), rather than have something bad (closed borders) mediate the problems of something bad (social services)?

 

[Danoff]

Yay, I get to argue against Danoff for once!

For security, I don’t really understand what the issue is. I’m all for people passing drugs and guns across the border, since they shouldn’t be regulated in the first place. And I don’t buy the terrorism argument, since the 9/11 terrorists did plenty of damage while being here legally.

Correct me if I’m off-base, but I think your arguments about entitlement programs and black market labor can be combined into one point, because I suspect that you have no intrinsic problem with people working off the books, and I suspect that you have no intrinsic problem with people evading taxes (at least our current nasty-ass tax scheme), but you probably take issue with people not paying taxes and then turning around and using social services.

If I’ve summed up your position correctly, then I offer the following thought experiment: Let’s pretend for a moment that these government-created issues don’t exist. Now, you would be all for letting any immigrant come in, correct?

Now, let’s include the fact that the government has created so many problems with social services and the IRS and what not. Why, in principle, should this change your position on letting all immigrants in? Yes, there’s a pragmatic difference, but that’s how a Utilitarian would approach it.

Basically, you can break down my argument like this: wouldn’t you rather have something intrinsically good (free-for-all immigration) exacerbate the problems of something bad (social services), rather than have something bad (closed borders) mediate the problems of something bad (social services)?

Heh, not a bad approach. You're not quite right in summarizing my view - but close. I'm not ok with people evading taxes - those are the rules and people need to live by them. We can't have a nation without some form of government, and that government has to pay for itself. Tax evasion is illegal and rightly so. That's not to say that our tax code couldn't be drastically improved.

You're right in thinking that I see most of the solution to this as a correction to the tax code and to our entitlement programs rather than a need to prevent workers from filling the demands of the black market for labor. With a sales tax and no entitlement programs (no public schools, no social security, no medicare, etc.) there would be much less demand for illegal immigrants, and it would greatly help us police our borders - but the borders must remain closed.

I'm concerned about the ability of an enemy to mount an offensive from within the US. Al Qaeda was able to successfully do billions of dollars worth of damage - without even the aid of massive weapons. Imagine what they could do if they could smuggle a nuclear weapon through the lax security in some port in mexico, and then transport that weapon across our open borders with mexico into the united states - they could wipe out a city.

There are serious national security issues with having a completely open border. We'll always need to inspect people crossing into and perhaps even out of the US. We have to make sure they're not transporting massive weapons, international criminals, slaves, etc.

The black market can be virtually eliminated, but there are still critical security concerns with having an open border. Until we fix the financial incentives, people who come here illegally are literally stealing money and jobs and should be deported as quickly as possible. After we fix the financial problem, people who come here illegally are still security risks and should be deported as quickly as possible. Either way, sneaking into our country should get you deported.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Thanks, but just clarify what I'm off the mark about.
-Taking an interest in the rest of the world?
-US' bad rep around the world?

Don't get me wrong- I love going to the US, and I love the fundamental democratic Ideals that the US championed from the day the Bill of Rights was first penned.

But I can't tell you how often you guys get badmouthed (rightly or wrongly) for being out of touch with the rest of the planet/ not knowing anything about the rest of the world.

Personally, I think its short-sighted and ignorant to paint everyone with the same brush, but the stereotypes of the fat, loud, ignorant "yankee" shouting "U-S-A, U-S-A" are out there and very much alive.

We had several US exchange students at my Uni a few years ago, and they were shocked at the attitudes towards the US.

They had honestly assumed that the US was "God's country" and everyone wanted to live there or be like them, that everyone would look up to them.

The USA spends billions in financial aid and helps out many nations in need every year. More than that, we have hundreds of organizations who have people who volunteer with aid. Yet, as soon as one country that is 'ignored' makes the global media's attention and reveals we didn't provide aid, we then get blamed for being 'cruel, cheap bastards who don't care.'

To say America and Americans don't care what goes on around the rest of the world is extremely ignorant and inaccurate.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

I am understanding what everyone has said, and too lazy to quote everyone, but I +Rep'd the people who I understand most.

I would just like to add that we should see thier side of the story. I was speaking to one of them, and they said that "There isn't much to like in Mexico. We do so much work, and we get little pay. We also can't afford anything while being down there." They said more, but it's too much to type now, I got to go somewhere. I will post the rest later. I know they don't pay for taxes and stuff now, but we should also be considerate about them, since they are people too.

EDIT: Wow over 80 replies in such a short time.

 

[Solid Lifters]

I am understanding what everyone has said, and too lazy to quote everyone, but I +Rep'd the people who I understand most.

I would just like to add that we should see thier side of the story. I was speaking to one of them, and they said that "There isn't much to like in Mexico. We do so much work, and we get little pay. We also can't afford anything while being down there."

So? Why is that our problem? Why can't they insist on change in their own country? Why come here and loaf on us? We don't need to hear their side of the story. We have our own story to deal with! Let the people and government of Mexico deal with these people and if they wont, they should either vote or fight for change instead or running like cowards to freeload off of us.

I know they don't pay for taxes and stuff now, but we should also be considerate about them, since they are people too.

You've got to be kidding me.

What about us? Why is it fair these people are destroying our way of life? Our safety; our educational system; our chances to work for decent pay. The middle class is being destroyed thanks in whole to these people. Certain business suffer because of them. They've made our Workers Comp into a nightmare.

If things are so bad for them in their country, they should either strive for change in that country, or be totally committed to ours. No more freeloading! We're sick of it! It's not like these people are disabled or handicapped! So why should we allow them to freeload off of us? Why should we allow them to hide behind our constitution when they aren't even citizens of this country?

 

[Swift]

Really? Even when they do good things, work hard and get paid crap, do jobs other US citizens don't want to do, and send the money back to their families?
Just because they are illegal doesn't mean they are bad. They might be good people.

Followed by this great reply...

YES. IT. DOES. They are breaking the law. If I broke into your house to say vacuum your floor, you wouldn't be happy even though I was doing something worth while because I invaded your space without your permission. Any way you look at it, it's wrong.

Then you said this...

Picturing that scenario made me laugh - after the initial shock, I think I would be very confused.

But seriously, the analogy isn't quite right.
it would be more correct if I opened my curtains and put some food on the table, along with a sign that says
"I know you are hungry, but don't break in, but if you do, vaccum my house and take this little bit of food in return. If I catch you, you will be punished"

No, that's not it at all. We don't hold out the carrot and say, "I know you're hungry but you can't get this" We hold out the legal immigration laws and say, "If you want to live/work here this is what you do."

Just because SOME of the people do well doesn't mean that we should just let it slide. There are plenty other felons that have done things that would be considered "good". Should we let them off the hook too?

 

[TheCracker]

Yes but your house is your property. You don't own your country, you just live there. If someone broke into your local municipal library and hoovered up would you still feel as violated?