What does America have against Mexico?

[Danoff]

Yes but your house is your property. You don't own your country, you just live there. If someone broke into your local municipal library and hoovered up would you still feel as violated?

Public property belongs to the people who pay for it.

 

[TheCracker]

Public property belongs to the people who pay for it.

Yes, but would you be really bothered if someone unauthorised broke in to clean the place up - even if they did use the cleaning equipment already bought and payed for and kept in the store room?

(this has become more than a little obscure)

 

[UnoMOTO]

My tax dollars likely paid for that library so I do have a vested intrest. My tax dollars will have to pay to fix the library. So...yes I have been violated. Not in the same way it would if it were my home.

I take pride in my country as if I owned it and if I see people messing it up I have the personal right to get ticked off because of it.

 

[Swift]

Yes but your house is your property. You don't own your country, you just live there. If someone broke into your local municipal library and hoovered up would you still feel as violated?

Every legal citizen that puts something into their country whether it be taxes, service, time, whatever has part "ownership" in the country. This is my country, but no more then it is Danoff's or Solid Lifter's. Any violation against my country is a DIRECT violation against myself. Of course, I can't treat it the same way because of the laws in place, but that's how I feel about it.

 

[FoolKiller]

Yes, but would you be really bothered if someone unauthorised broke in to clean the place up - even if they did use the cleaning equipment already bought and payed for and kept in the store room?

(this has become more than a little obscure)

I think the more accurate analogy would not be that they are using the cleaning equipment, but that they are taking a few books. So now I don't get to read Chicken Soup for the Soul and the library has to replace the book at the cost of the taxpayers.

 

[Joey D]

Breaking and entering, illegally trespassing, whatever one wants to call it is a crime and the violators should be punished. If you broke into a library and started cleaning it up you would be punished, you wouldn't be shot or even jailed, but you would be asked to leave. If you didn't you would be escorted away. Why can't the US just do that, ask them to leave, if they don't escort them out of the country? If they come back in the punishment is steeper.

 

[YSSMAN]

I would just like to add that we should see thier side of the story. I was speaking to one of them, and they said that "There isn't much to like in Mexico. We do so much work, and we get little pay. We also can't afford anything while being down there." They said more, but it's too much to type now, I got to go somewhere. I will post the rest later. I know they don't pay for taxes and stuff now, but we should also be considerate about them, since they are people too.

Certainly they are people too, but why can't they spend time fixing their own country instead of coming to ours (illegally) and doing X-event here?

The Mexican government is indeed at fault for so many of the problems in that country; Political, economic, and social. If they could elect a competent government that would actually create laws that would be followed, that would actually help citizens create a better economic and social system, and altogether make Mexico a better country, both Mexican and American would be better off.

---

Here is an interesting question: Lets say Americans were pouring into Canada, taking jobs for less than minimum wage, sucking off the social teat of the government, all while not paying taxes, causing civil unrest in cities, and not bothering to learn the language (in say, Quebec), would that not be a problem?

What would Canada do to stop this problem?

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Yeah, I'm starting to see all the reasons to back up the border. I don't know too much stuff about stuff. I understand why America wants to stop border hopping now. I would probably change countries illegaly if I didn't want to live here, with some good reasoning. But I would atleast pay taxes, learn the language, and would do my best to not ruin the country for others. It just sounded like you didn't get to hear thier part of the story at first, but I'm reconsidering that, due to the amount of good reasoning of why the border should be made. Nice posts. 👍

 

[Solid Lifters]

The timing on this is great. I just found this on the net.

POEM - Illegal Immigrants

I cross ocean,
poor and broke,

Take bus,
see employment folk.

Nice man
treat me good in there,
Say I need
go see Welfare.

Welfare say,
"You come no more,

We send cash
right to your door."

Welfare checks,
they make you wealthy,

Medicaid
it keep you healthy!

By and by,
Got plenty money,

Thanks to you,
TAXPAYER dummy

Write to friends
in motherland,

Tell them
'come, fast as you can'

They come in turbans
and Ford trucks,

I buy big house
with welfare bucks.

They come here,
we live together,
?
More welfare checks,
it gets better!

Fourteen families,
they moving in,

But neighbor's patience
wearing thin.

Finally, white guy
moves away,
..
I buy his house,
and then I say,

"Find more aliens
for house to rent."

In my yard
I put a tent.

Send for family
they just trash,
..
But they, too,
draw welfare cash!

Everything is
very good,
Soon we own
whole neighborhood.

We have hobby
it called breeding,

Welfare pay
for baby feeding.

Kids need dentist?
Wife need pills?

We get free!
We got no bills!

TAXPAYER crazy!
He pay all year,
To keep welfare
running here.

We think America
darn good place!
Too darn good
for white man race.

If they no like us,
they can scram,
Got lots of room
in Pakistan

 

[TopHat]

*snip

That is why we don't like illegal immigrants.

/thread

 

[Sage]

There are serious national security issues with having a completely open border. We'll always need to inspect people crossing into and perhaps even out of the US. We have to make sure they're not transporting massive weapons, international criminals, slaves, etc.

Okay, I’ve been thinking about this all day, and I’m willing to sort of meet you halfway.

I think that while we don’t 100% agree on entitlement program abuse, we fundamentally agree, so we can table that.

For security, I’d rather have completely reckless freedom instead of government limitations – I’d rather use an airline that has no security (if that were possible) instead of an airline that used the TSA’s procedures. However, I realize that that analogy doesn’t translate directly to the border issue, since airlines are private companies that can be chosen from, while the border… is not. So while I’d still rather live with the risks of having an open border, I’ll acknowledge that you and others won’t accept that risk, and so I’d be okay with setting up a wall and having inspections at the border, but only to look for the issues you mentioned in the quote above. I don’t think there should be a cap on how many people can cross the border (where are you going to derive such a number from?), and I don’t think legal immigrants should have to be eligible for naturalization (like the requirement that you can’t be a polygamist – what the hell?).

 

[YSSMAN]

...and I don’t think legal immigrants should have to be eligible for naturalization (like the requirement that you can’t be a polygamist – what the hell?).

You may want to ask France how that has worked out for them. Unless you want to see burning Malibus on every corner, not to mentioned the tipped-over Police vehicles, and various riots around the country 'just for the hell of it,' citizenship may not be a bad idea after all...

 

[Sage]

Two observations about that:

1) That’s an inherent flaw in socialism (okay, okay, the French government is technically socialist, but they might as well be). When the government says “We can solve your problems!”, people will start believing in, then they’ll start demanding it.

2) Hispanic culture is already tightly ingrained into many aspects of American life. From what I’ve read, Islamic culture in France seemed to be stuck in its own little hole. I don’t know about Michigan, but here in SoCal, Mexicans have already hugely assimilated into our culture, and not only that, but many of them are homeowners, which is a significant factor in assimilation. I think there’ll be a day (within our lifetimes) when Mexican culture and U.S. culture are so similar as to make no difference, in the same way that Italian culture and U.S. culture are nearly indistinguishable now.

 

[SS69]

I say we just give them back Texas and California and call it a day.

 

[OZZYGT]

in the same way that Italian culture and U.S. culture are nearly indistinguishable now.

Hi Sage, I'd be glad if you elaborate more on that, please. Because I see absolutely NO assimilation whatsoever in Italian and American culture. But hey, maybe you lived in "Little USA" in Italy, and that's why you say something like this.

Thanks

 

[Sage]

You’re probably taking me too literally.

When you think of a typical American today, chances are they’re probably of Italian or Irish or German decent. Yet, while we haven’t adopted much Irish or German food, we’ve wholeheartedly adopted Italian food as our own – yes, we’ve tweaked and Americanized a lot of it, but still. Congress is hugely represented by Italian-Americans, Nancy Pelosi being just one of them. Bruce Springsteen was part Italian – how much more American can you get than that? What about Frank Sinatra, Frank Zappa, Antonin Scalia, Yogi Berra, Rudolph Guiliani, Joe Dimaggio, the Andretti family, Tim McGraw, Gwen Stefani, etc. etc. These days, if you’re a second- or third-generation Italian, then you are an American, flat-out. The stereotypical American is often not of British decent, but rather those three groups I mentioned above, and I think Italian culture has weaved itself into “American” culture moreso than the other two.

The same can’t be said for Mexicans yet, but they’re definitely on their way to assimilation. We’ve already got the food part going.

 

[SS69]

I dont believe that. It depends the part of America you're in. You just happend to name a few famous Italian Americans.
What about:
Wynona Ryder
Michael Landon
Cary Grant
Alicia Silverstone
Harrison Ford
Gwyneth Paltrow
William Shatner
Natalie Portman
Sarah Jessica Parker
Seth Green
Steven Spielberg
Mel Brooks
Bryan Singer
Woody Allen

Just to name a very few, are all jewish-americans.

Ben Affleck
Lara Flynn Boyle
Jennifer Connelly
Mariah Carey
Heather Graham
Mark Wahlberg
Ashton Kutcher
The Baldwins
Matthew Broderick
George Clooney
John Cusack
Matt Dillon
Chris Farley
Michael J. Fox
Brendan Fraser

Just to name a very few, are all Irish-Americans.

I dont even know one Italian American personally. I believe a large majority are located in the North-east, along with many Irish-Americans. Much of the southern dialect and idioms closely resemble that of elizabethan english.

When I think of typical American, I usually think of a mutt dog, that looks like a chow, or, maybe a lab. Who the hell knows anymore?

 

[Sage]

Okay, this is really not where I wanted to head. My original point was that immigrants tend to eventually assimilate quite nicely into American culture (as a counterpoint to YSSMAN’s claim about Muslims in France), and I just so happened to choose Italian Americans because it came off the top of my head. Replace Italian culture with whatever you want – Jewish Americans, Irish Americans, whatever, it doesn’t matter. It’s completely beside the point. The point is that I don’t see Mexican assimilation as being a huge problem, given that that process has already started in many parts of the country, including right here where I live.

 

[SS69]

it's okay, I forgive you.

 

[Danoff]

Nice of you to forgive sage for providing you with something to take out of context.

 

[Barracuda]

What about:
Wynona Ryder
Michael Landon
Cary Grant
Alicia Silverstone
Harrison Ford
Gwyneth Paltrow
William Shatner
Natalie Portman
Sarah Jessica Parker
Seth Green
Steven Spielberg
Mel Brooks
Bryan Singer
Woody Allen

Just to name a very few, are all jewish-americans.

How about Adam Sandler

 

[YSSMAN]

The point is that I don’t see Mexican assimilation as being a huge problem, given that that process has already started in many parts of the country, including right here where I live.

For the most part, I guess not. We certainly have adopted a lot of their culture into our own, however, that being said, many of these Immigrants (illegal or not) have not assimilated as the Irish, Italian, Dutch, French, German, etc immigrants before them... One of the greatest qualities of America is that we take these people in, make their culture a part of our own 'collective culture,' and create a great social society in which one can identify with one another.

I always think of Dearborn, Michigan when people talk about issues with the Islamic community in Iraq, France, Germany, etc. Why do they get along in the US, but not outside? My theory has always been that they were welcomed as friends and neighbors, and their culture remains an important part of SE Michigan.

 

[Gonz013]

To say America and Americans don't care what goes on around the rest of the world is extremely ignorant and inaccurate.

I take your point and I apologise if you took it that way- I didn't mean that at all.

 

[Gonz013]

This one is primarily for Danoff & YSSMAN, but anyone with knowledge of this could contribute:

I don't get how an illegal immigrant can claim benefits/ enrol their kids in school/ get medical aid etc.
Id there no requirement to provide Tax File Numbers/ similar documentation?

These requirements are usually in place in most countries to ensure that people don't claim things twice, etc.

 

[YSSMAN]

This one is primarily for Danoff & YSSMAN, but anyone with knowledge of this could contribute:

I don't get how an illegal immigrant can claim benefits/ enrol their kids in school/ get medical aid etc.
Id there no requirement to provide Tax File Numbers/ similar documentation?

These requirements are usually in place in most countries to ensure that people don't claim things twice, etc.

Generally speaking, that is required. However, there is a very lucrative market in fake Social Security cards (the identification you use for damn-near everything), and by law, a hospital cannot refuse service to someone who is sick. Every State in the Union has a 'pot' that is used to pay for these medical visits. Likewise, these children of illegals (usually born in the US) automatically become citizens, and likewise, they are entitled to these benefits as US citizens, and after their parents have them, they too are entitled to these as well.

What it comes down to is that our system is too full of loopholes, and is too easy to get through to get the freebies that so many people want.

...Blame it on the lawmakers I suppose. But even then, laws in other countries (France, Germany, etc) that strictly deny basic services to non-nationals hasn't worked out well either...

 

[Gonz013]

For the most part, I guess not. We certainly have adopted a lot of their culture into our own, however, that being said, many of these Immigrants (illegal or not) have not assimilated as the Irish, Italian, Dutch, French, German, etc immigrants before them... One of the greatest qualities of America is that we take these people in, make their culture a part of our own 'collective culture,' and create a great social society in which one can identify with one another.

I totally agree with this. It's much more interesting and beneficial for everyone to add to a collective culture.
The three stand-out multicultural countries that come to mind are: US, Canada, Australia. None are free from problems, to be sure, but they seem to be heading in the right direction and generally function well.
It works well as long as everyone agrees to be bound by a common set of laws & core values.
People talk metaphorically of having a cultural "salad" rather than a "melting pot" - so things work together, but manage to keep their own identities, rather than melting into an indistinguishable mass of sameness.

I always think of Dearborn, Michigan when people talk about issues with the Islamic community in Iraq, France, Germany, etc. Why do they get along in the US, but not outside? My theory has always been that they were welcomed as friends and neighbors, and their culture remains an important part of SE Michigan.

I always think of the city of Toledo in Spain, where Christians, Muslims and Jews lived for hundreds of years in peaceful cooperation, yet retained their language, food, architecture etc.

I've always wondered about this myself, and can only assume that it comes from a greater understanding of others when exposed to them/ their culture/ language etc. -As well as other factors that cause conflict in the first place:
Every war that ever was has been fought for a resource of some kind, wether its land, oil, water, gold, whatever.
Religion, race, and any other difference simply adds fuel to the fire/ provides justification & propaganda for the conflict.

 

[SS69]

Nice of you to forgive sage for providing you with something to take out of context.

Well people tell me I'm a nice guy, you know, I just take their word for it.

 

[ledhed]

Ummm 12 million PLUS illegal immigrants ?

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Why are some people calling me stupid, dumb, immature and ignorant? Are they just mad because they disagree with my opinion? Then they call me the immature one. Do I flame someone because I disagree with thier opinion? OKAY THEN.

I'm not trying to start a flaming arguement here, just a discussion of why you guys called me stupid, immature, dumb, and completely ignorant? Just tell me I won't get mad even if you are trying to argue with me. I never called someone names here, even if it was true. Sure I made a mistake before, but I apologized to them face to face. It's cool to disagree with someone, but it's not cool to turn red hot over someone's opinion that you strongly disagree with. That is just wrong.

 

[Joey D]

I think it's the fact you stated that a border fence or other boundary between the US and Mexico is racist. Countries need to protect their borders for many reasons, but we really don't have to drive into them right now.

Also our borders are not nearly as bad as other places. Some countries will just shoot you if you try to get in without going through a check point.