What does America have against Mexico?

[FoolKiller]

Why are some people calling me stupid, dumb, immature and ignorant? Are they just mad because they disagree with my opinion? Then they call me the immature one. Do I flame someone because I disagree with thier opinion? OKAY THEN.

I'm not trying to start a flaming arguement here, just a discussion of why you guys called me stupid, immature, dumb, and completely ignorant? Just tell me I won't get mad even if you are trying to argue with me. I never called someone names here, even if it was true. Sure I made a mistake before, but I apologized to them face to face. It's cool to disagree with someone, but it's not cool to turn red hot over someone's opinion that you strongly disagree with. That is just wrong.

Well,, at first you didn't seem to understand the difference between a legal and illegal immigrant. Plenty of people will agree to legal immigration and maybe even cutting some of the red tape to becoming a legal immigrant. But people just waltzing in and being able to do whatever they want doesn't cut it. You aren't being hateful if you don't want your neighbor just walking in your house whenever he feels like it, even if he wants to help do the dishes. You just want him to come when invited.

Another thing is that you didn't seem to grasp the concept of "reverse" racism (saying Mexicans work harder than white people). A statement or thought based on race is still racist, even if you are complimenting the minority. You still just insulted white people because they were white. Racism goes both ways not just against ethnic minorities.

And then, when someone uses the term ignorant be wary of getting upset. Unless it is used in a hateful way that is intended to offend it really shouldn't be. A person can be ignorant of something just because they don't know the facts. You were ignorant of the idea of "reverse" racism. I have accused people of being ignorant of things before, but never meant to offend them. Heck, I am ignorant of astrophysics and molecular biology. That's why I rely on Danoff and Famine for those things.


Basically, the way you started the thread came off as both somewhat angry and insulting, so the responses you got were equally so. Plus when you were asked to back up your claims you said you saw it on an opinion based show hosted by two comedians who are more famous for doing stand-up comedy magic shows than they are their political expertise. Here in the Opinions forum we demand quoted sources that are reliable, not just saying you saw it on a show. I could claim the moon was made of green cheese because I saw it on Tom and Jerry, that doesn't make it remotely credible. You walked into the hardest place in the world to make an argument and tried it without a strong source to back up what you were saying. I've learned that in the Opinions forum if you aren't providing a link to something in your post you had better be commenting on something in someone else's link.

And just don't get offended. No one who has lasted a long time in the Opinions forum has done so by getting easily offended. You will be told you are wrong and some people will be blunt about it. The only way to take the edge off the opposing comments is to have evidence behind what you say.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

This just in, they are going to put over 300 miles of pure boarder and 18,000 security officers to watch over the boarder to stop illegal boarder hopping. I see they are starting to build it right. 👍 I am watching the news and thats what they said.

 

[dylansan]

My take on it is this:
There are a few options:
a) Mexico could fix it's government.
b) We could go to war with Mexico to try to fix their government.
c) Mexicans could illegally come to our country to try to live a normal life.
d) They could just die as a poor family.

The problem in my eyes is that they want to get money because they are poor but then sort of gloat about it to us. I'm not saying they are all like this, but stories I've heard in this thread seem to point that way. If you're a jerk, get out of my country and be poor. if you need to get money for your families, don't be a jerk. If you are a jerk, and don't get money for you're family, you are at fault.

Honestly I think they just want to fix their country, but, failing that, decide to come here to get money because it's easier. I don't know what we should do with them, but we can't kick them all out. That would be like kicking out all the poverty in our country. It's not their fault they are poor, but if a homeless person decides to make fun of everyone who isn't poor, I don't think they deserve money.

On the other hand, people should try harder to help people less fortunate than them. It's because of this assumption that MExicans are jerks that nobody tries to help them and their families, and because of this, some of them might be offended and start being jerks to us. In the end, it's stereotypes that cause this problem.

Just wanted to speak out.

 

[SS69]

Yea, it's not their fault their country is poor and they cant make a good living, but it is their fault they came here illegally. If they did things by the law we would have no right to kick them out.

 

[ledhed]

We make it so easy for them to come here and make money ..and actually have a huge demand for their labor ..so who is fooling who here ? `12 million plus illegal Mexicans didn't just wake up one day and decide to invade the us to mow lawns and kill chickens ..and whatever other dirty job the average American wont do .

We demand cheap labor -they supply it . Why else is the border DELIBERATELY left so open ?

 

[OZZYGT]

We make it so easy for them to come here and make money ..and actually have a huge demand for their labor ..so who is fooling who here ? `12 million plus illegal Mexicans didn't just wake up one day and decide to invade the us to mow lawns and kill chickens ..and whatever other dirty job the average American wont do .

We demand cheap labor -they supply it . Why else is the border DELIBERATELY left so open ?

Well said 👍

 

[Danoff]

My take on it is this:
There are a few options:
a) Mexico could fix it's government.
b) We could go to war with Mexico to try to fix their government.
c) Mexicans could illegally come to our country to try to live a normal life.
d) They could just die as a poor family.

Option e, they could immigrate legally.

I don't know what we should do with them, but we can't kick them all out.

Why not?

That would be like kicking out all the poverty in our country.

There would still be plenty of poor people left.

It's not their fault they are poor, but if a homeless person decides to make fun of everyone who isn't poor, I don't think they deserve money.

Nobody deserves money, they earn it in a free exchange. If someone is willing to give them money, they've earned it. The only problem comes when they break US law to get an unfair advantatge.

On the other hand, people should try harder to help people less fortunate than them. It's because of this assumption that MExicans are jerks that nobody tries to help them and their families, and because of this, some of them might be offended and start being jerks to us. In the end, it's stereotypes that cause this problem.

Stereotypes are not a problem here - only the economic situation in mexico and the tax situation in America.

We make it so easy for them to come here and make money ..and actually have a huge demand for their labor ..so who is fooling who here ? `12 million plus illegal Mexicans didn't just wake up one day and decide to invade the us to mow lawns and kill chickens ..and whatever other dirty job the average American wont do .

We demand cheap labor -they supply it . Why else is the border DELIBERATELY left so open ?

Yes, we demand cheap labor, and they supply it - but they can only supply it by breaking US law. If a US citizen evades income taxes, we storm his house and stick him in jail. If a mexican citizen evades income taxes we just throw our hands up and act like we can't do anything.

Think about what the government would do to you if you tried to evade income tax, social security, medicare, etc. Now think about what the it does to them... nothing. That's why we desire their labor, because the government favors them.

 

[dylansan]

Option e, they could immigrate legally. But then they wouldn't be able to exploit our government for money and would possibly remain as a poor family (although it's still a good point, they just sometimes would rather do it illegally)



Why not?
Not only would it be incredibly difficult, it's kinda unfair considering they are poorer than us and it's often they only choice they have.

There would still be plenty of poor people left.
Not sure what you mean by that


Nobody deserves money, they earn it in a free exchange. If someone is willing to give them money, they've earned it. The only problem comes when they break US law to get an unfair advantatge.
I disagree. I think that if a person is going to exploit something to gain an advantage, and still hate the people they exploited it from, then they shouldn't get the money. Of course, there is really no way to stop that from happening.


Stereotypes are not a problem here - only the economic situation in mexico and the tax situation in America.
Right, and since they won't fix their government, let's fix it for them. It worked in Iraq right? Once we get a good president I think we can at least fix our tax problems in a way that makes everyone happy. However, I honestly don't know how to fix all the problems, but I'm not the president.



Yes, we demand cheap labor, and they supply it - but they can only supply it by breaking US law. If a US citizen evades income taxes, we storm his house and stick him in jail. If a mexican citizen evades income taxes we just throw our hands up and act like we can't do anything.
Again, new president = possibly better situation. It's not "we" act like we can't do anything. The president thinks we can't, and unsuccesfully tries to persuede us to believe him.

I think we're both sort of on the same side here, but all your points are valid. I just wanted to bring a few things up.

 

[Deathclown66]

I used to be vehemently anti-illegal-immigration, but I’ve recently revised my opinion the other way.

My big argument used to be the drain on social services – they’re not paying for any of it, yet using at least some of it. A few weeks ago I realized two things though:

1) That’s an inherent problem of social services (which shouldn’t even be set up in the first place), irrespective of whether or not illegal immigrants use them.
2) The only reason they don’t pay into it is because they’re criminalized, by definition. If you de-criminilize them, they won’t be forced to work off the books, thus they’d actually pay taxes into the system.

I know individual stories get old, but since it's recent, I have too.

I work with some spanish people, but most are on different shifts. But there were 2 guys I did work with, and got to know a bit. The first, Carlos, quit to move back to Florida. The second, Junior, Quit his full-time job, making 12$ an hour, with good benefits and 16 days paid vacation his first year, to go work for his brother under the table for 2 months. He is not re-hirable. He asked HR for a leave of absence to work illegally.

 

[Solid Lifters]

One more reason to "have something against Mexico."

The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com

Illegals light border fires to sidetrack U.S. agents
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published June 19, 2007

U.S. Border Patrol agents seeking to secure the nation's border in some of the country's most pristine national forests are being targeted by illegal aliens, who are using intentionally set fires to burn agents out of observation posts and patrol routes.
The wildfires have destroyed valuable natural and cultural resources in the National Forest System and pose an ongoing threat to visitors, residents and responding firefighters, according to federal law-enforcement authorities and others.
In the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, with 60 miles of land along the U.S.-Mexico border, U.S. Forest Service firefighters sent in to battle fires or clear wild-land fire areas are required to be escorted by armed law-enforcement officers.
Armed smugglers of aliens and drugs have walked through the middle of active firefighting operations, the authorities said.
The Border Patrol's Tucson, Ariz., sector, which encompasses most of the Coronado National Forest, has the highest incidence of cross-border violators in the nation. Nearly 500,000 illegal aliens were apprehended last year -- more than 30,000 a month. In addition, nearly 100,000 pounds of marijuana, with a street value of $200 million, was seized as it was hauled through the Coronado National Forest.
Last month, the Border Patrol -- in a single operation targeting illegal aliens causing what Forest Service officials called "significant damage" to the Coronado National Forest -- apprehended more than 300 illegals along just a three-mile section of U.S.-Mexico border in Arizona and confiscated 600 pounds of marijuana in a 10-day period.
At least five fires were set below a Border Patrol observation post during the operation in an effort to burn the agents out, according to a Forest Service report. The fires were extinguished, and no one was arrested.
Wildfires are being set by alien and drug smugglers, authorities said, to create a diversion in an attempt to gain undetected access across the border. The fires correspond to a dramatic rise in assaults against Border Patrol agents -- up more than 100 percent over last year.
"Criminal activity by both illegal immigrants and citizens in forests near the border is a threat to members of the public trying to use their public lands and to our employees trying to manage these lands," Tina J. Terrell, a Forest Service supervisor told a House Appropriations subcommittee last month.
She said law-enforcement personnel have been assaulted, threatened with weapons and shot at, and their vehicles have been rammed by cross-border violators. Because of the remoteness of the area, she said, timely assistance from other law-enforcement agencies is not always possible, and communications limitations and active interference with radio frequencies in Mexico create additional safety risks.
"Even normal enforcement duties bring our officers in regular contact with cross-border violators," she said. "Our officers risk their lives every day to enforce the law in these remote federally managed lands."
The Coronado National Forest is not the only area along the border being targeted for wildfires. Other blazes also have been set, including two this month near the San Luis, Ariz., port of entry as the result of Molotov cocktails -- one of which barely missed a Border Patrol agent.
Authorities said agents are being targeted by illegal aliens and their smugglers for rock attacks -- including grapefruit-size rocks wrapped in rags, dipped in gasoline and set on fire.
"As larger areas of the border come under operational control, we can expect violence to increase as smuggling operations can no longer operate with impunity and do not have unfettered access to the border for their criminal activities," Border Patrol Chief David V. Aguilar told a Homeland Security subcommittee this year.
"This explosion of aggression is an indicator how desperate and angry drug and human traffickers are at the increasing disruption of their smuggling routes," he said.

 

[Joey D]

Wow that really pisses me off. Just shoot them, yes that's harsh but I really don't care anymore, obliviously they aren't contributing to society...in fact they are bringing it down by bringing drugs in and lighting our prime forests on fire. Not to mention putting thousands of people at risk of dying from the fires.

I'm not a wacko tree hugger but I believe protecting our national forests is an important thing to do because I do backpack, hunt, camp, fish, and just spend time outdoors. I want a place I can go to to do these sorts of things.

 

[Barracuda]

Wow that really pisses me off. Just shoot them, yes that's harsh but I really don't care anymore, obliviously they aren't contributing to society...in fact they are bringing it down by bringing drugs in and lighting our prime forests on fire. Not to mention putting thousands of people at risk of dying from the fires.

I'm not a wacko tree hugger but I believe protecting our national forests is an important thing to do because I do backpack, hunt, camp, fish, and just spend time outdoors. I want a place I can go to to do these sorts of things.

finally, something i can agree on 👍

 

[Joey D]

To bad America is ran by idiots from both the Republican and Democratic parties which means nothing is ever going to be done about this situation. Maybe we should shoot the politicians first and then worry about the Mexicans....damn I'm going to get secret service banging on my door now.

 

[Barracuda]

To bad America is ran by idiots from both the Republican and Democratic parties which means nothing is ever going to be done about this situation. Maybe we should shoot the politicians first and then worry about the Mexicans....damn I'm going to get secret service banging on my door now.

lol, I think that just brought up a black flag

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Glass
Parking
Lot

 

[Barracuda]

Glass
Parking
Lot

now theres a better solution

 

[Loon]

To bad America is ran by idiots from both the Republican and Democratic parties which means nothing is ever going to be done about this situation. Maybe we should shoot the politicians first and then worry about the Mexicans....damn I'm going to get secret service banging on my door now.

Maybe we should, maybe then we'll be able to actually get something done around here, or atleast get it done the right way for a change.

 

[YSSMAN]

Lets see:

- The Democrats want something done, but nobody knows what exactly it is because they're spending so much time yelling about global warming and Iraq.

- The Republicans are a bit more realistic in the center, and others are so incredibly stupid that they would rather start a race war in this country than actually fix the problem at hand.

- The White House is too busy sucking its thumb over Iraq, they have no idea what to think about Immigration, particularly when it goes against everything that the American people want.

- The people get pissed, they fight and scream on both sides, and more Mexicans jump the border hoping to get amnesty. Great. Then the rest of the world tries to tell us how to do it, when they have absolutely no idea how it works. Then Americans yell at them, and they yell at us. Great.

----

Its a mess. Nobody has a good answer. Maybe we should buy Mexico and sell it to the Germans. I'm sure they could do something useful with them...

 

[Omnis]

Having been to the strawberry fields at Monterey, California a few days ago and witnessing the poor migrant workers doing their backbreaking jobs and living in their shantyhouses, I think people need to shift their focus from the workers to their employers. If you really want to know why illegal migrants are needed, go out and watch them work. Those guys bust their asses all day long for our benefit. The agriculture firms embrace the illegals. Blame the industry.

In Florida, the school school system-- my county's school board, anyway-- is constantly lambasted and put on the spot. Nobody blames the principals! Nobody blames the teachers! Nobody blames the students! Yet, in the case of illegal workers and the industry that embraces them, we find only those lowest on the food chain guilty. If a student in a school is doing poorly, he may be wrong, but he certainly is not the first to be blamed. Why then are we so quick to blame the migrants rather than those who employ them?

We are not well because of illegal immigration and we, as a nation, have come to recognize that this problem exists. However, we are far worse without recognizing why this problem exists. Yes, the illegals need to go, but we must remedy the problem from the center of the industry and its hierarchy before anything can be done to its most peripheral branches. Leave a piece of candy next to an ant hill and ants will come regardless of how many times the hill is destroyed. In other words, we could send every illegal immigrant home at our expense only to find their return a short time later. It is that piece of candy that must go, and it too is the easiest change to make! The industry needs to start paying good, livable wages to legal americans to give them at least some incentive to bend over picking fruit all day. At the very least, I don't think most Americans would mind paying a few bucks more for berries when those same dollars are sucked from their pockets to cover the burden that the illegals provide. (I could take the time to also explain how well a national sales tax would replace the current income tax system and help to assail the problem, but The FairTax Book already does that quite well. If you haven't read it, I strongly suggest you do.)

Economics, not force, has to be what solves the issue. Government, therefore, has to better enforce the price floor, but, far more importantly, must accomodate the people into changing the market altogether in order to steer firms away from illegal labor.

 

[a6m5]

Good point, Omnis.

How about Social Security matching? Make it mandatory, and if you still come up with unmatched SS# with the IRS, penalize the employers.

You'd think that illegals would be forced to go back, since anybody who employs them could possibly go out of business.

P.S. Sorry, but I couldn't give you any rep for that one. It says that I have to spread more points around first. How did that happen.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Lets see:

- The Democrats want something done, but nobody knows what exactly it is because they're spending so much time yelling about global warming and Iraq.

- The Republicans are a bit more realistic in the center, and others are so incredibly stupid that they would rather start a race war in this country than actually fix the problem at hand.

- The White House is too busy sucking its thumb over Iraq, they have no idea what to think about Immigration, particularly when it goes against everything that the American people want.

- The people get pissed, they fight and scream on both sides, and more Mexicans jump the border hoping to get amnesty. Great. Then the rest of the world tries to tell us how to do it, when they have absolutely no idea how it works. Then Americans yell at them, and they yell at us. Great.

----

Its a mess. Nobody has a good answer. Maybe we should buy Mexico and sell it to the Germans. I'm sure they could do something useful with them...

That about sums it up.

 

[a6m5]

I personally think that many politicians are very aware, knows exactly what they are doing. Nothing gets done, because of the polical B.S. and hidden agendas. Good old, "you scratch my back...."

 

[Solid Lifters]

I got a great solution.

• Militarize the Border Patrol

• Use the border as one big military training ground

• Search, pinpoint, stalk and kill all that do 'illicit and dangerous actions' while at our borders

You cannot believe the crap our California Border Patrol Agents go through and put up with during their day at work. In fact, it's so bad, the problem is separated by Western California and Eastern California each with its own unique set of problems.

Click here and see for yourself how much trouble Mexico causes. http://www.usborderpatrol.com/Border_Patrol1302.htm

http://www.usborderpatrol.com/Border_Patrol1303.htm

 

[YSSMAN]

...The best arguement that I keep hearing about is "if you build a fence against Mexico, you've got to build one against Canada... It sends the wrong message."

Yes, because we have a HUGE problem of illegal Canadians jumping the border to work jobs for far-less than the minimum wage, and to suck on the government's social welfare teat...

Sure, there is a security threat on both sides of the United States, but lets face it, Canada poses far less of a threat to us than Mexico. Plus, much of the border (if I'm not mistaken) is very difficult to cross up there...

 

[Diego440]

Yeah, only a gentle stroll across a bridge, or even a summer swim... in both you're in perilous danger of breaking a sweat

If you look at it, Latin Americans entering the US (or Mexicans) usually end up doing the jobs neither white or black Americans want to do.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Building a wall on the Canadian border to keep illegal Americans from trying to scam some free health care is the Canadian's problem, eh?

If you look at it, Latin Americans entering the US (or Mexicans) usually end up doing the jobs neither white or black Americans want to do.

Uh, that ain't exactly true anymore. They're taking over for a lot of jobs, causing a huge shift in salary wage jobs that are hurting a lot of legal Americans. Besides, that's a 'played out' cliché, anyways.

 

[Diego440]

Uh, that ain't exactly true anymore. They're taking over for a lot of jobs, causing a huge shift in salary wage jobs that are hurting a lot of legal Americans. Besides, that's a 'played out' cliché, anyways.

Which jobs are they taking over? Really, I'm curious.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Which jobs are they taking over? Really, I'm curious.

Warehouse jobs, sanitation, grocery workers, construction, janitorial, etc. These are jobs honest, hard working Americans could and wanted to do that paid mortgages, put food on the table, and maybe enough for a new car every 10 or 12 years. Not anymore.

People who claim Americans don't want these jobs really don't know what they're talking about. Today, it's hard to find a grocery bagger who if you say, "Don't crush my eggs, please!" who then wont respond with anything but, "No hable inglés, senor."

 

[Diego440]

You make it seem like they're doing these jobs all over the US... I've been to many places there and I think I've experienced one or two people who dind't speak English... in many cities, and not necessarily close to each other. The most common non-English speakers were of Arab descent, though.

Oh, and it's "señor"

 

[Solid Lifters]

You make it seem like they're doing these jobs all over the US... I've been to many places there and I think I've experienced one or two people who dind't speak English... in many cities, and not necessarily close to each other. The most common non-English speakers were of Arab descent, though.

Oh, and it's "señor"

How do you make a n with that ~ above it?

Oh, in SoCal, illegals are everywhere. In some areas, they make up 98% of the population.