Where do you draw the line for "self defense"?

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smellysocks12
...In the panic he pulls the trigger, and then when he switches on the lights he realizes that he just blew one of his own children's head off. Nice self defense.

Scenarios like that happen too often in the USA.

Probably more than someone actually being able to defend himself from a burglar.


Statistics on this are really hard to sort out. Every study on it gets attacked from all sides by those defending unlimited gun ownership.

However, according to every study done, so-called "home defense" guns are far more likely to be used on someone who actually resides in the home than on an intruder. This includes both accidental and deliberate shootings (usually husband shooting wife or vice-versa).

The unfortunate fact is that having a gun in the house greatly increases the chances of residents of the house dieing by gunfire. We are far more likely to use our guns on our wives, husbands, parents, children, girlfriends, boyfriends, grandmothers, and grandfathers than on intruders.
 
http://www.kc3.com/editorial/guns_the_untold_story.htm

In a thesis titled "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun", in the Northwestern University School of Law, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, vol. 86, issue 1, 1995, Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz revealed some interesting facts.

Principal among these facts is that Guns are used for self-defense as many as 2.5 Million times every year. The following facts relate directly to this fact.

In the vast majority of those self-defense cases, the citizen will only brandish the gun or fire a warning shot. In less than 8% of those self-defense cases will the citizen will even wound his attacker. Over 1.9 million of those self-defense cases involve handguns. As many as 500,000 of those self-defense cases occur away from home. Almost 10% of those self-defense cases are women defending themselves against sexual assault or abuse. This means that guns are used at least 60 times more often to protect the lives of law-abiding citizens than to take a life. At a 250 million US population, it also means that an average of 1 out of every 100 people that you know will use a gun for self-defense every year. Dr. Kleck also wrote in his book titled "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America (Social Institutions and Social Change)" that burglars are more than three and a half times more likely to enter an occupied home in a gun control country than in the USA. Compare the 45% average rate of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands with the 12.7% of the USA. He continued to point out that citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals every year as do police (1,527 to 606). In a related article titled, "Are We a Nation of Cowards'?" in the November 15, 1993 issue of Newsweek Magazine, George Will reported that police are more than 5 times more likely than a civilian to shoot an innocent person by mistake.

The Wall Street Journal reported, in an August 28, 1996 article titled "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," that a University of Chicago study revealed that states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. The most impressive single statement in the University of Chicago Study (which is an ongoing study) is the very first sentence of the Abstract on the first page. "Using cross-sectional time series data for U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992, we find that allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes, without increasing accidental deaths."

A 1979 Carter Justice Department study found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. That number dropped to only 3% when the woman was armed. That means that a woman carrying a gun is more than 10 times less likely to be raped than an unarmed woman is. Think about it.

Since England passed its strict gun control laws, their previously low murder rate has almost caught up to that of the USA and according to a Reuters article on October 11, 1998 most other violent crime in England has passed the US crime rates. This is also supported by an October 1998 report of the Bureau of Justice Statistics


My favorite is the John Stossel interview with conviced felons that talk about how their primarcy concern when breaking into a house was whether the person inside was armed.
 
smellysocks12
And guess what.

One night he'll wake up hearing someone stumbling around in the dark in the living room. Your buddy wakes up, grabs his golf club, and suddenly the person in the kitchen jumps in front of him while he's on the way down. In the panic he swings the club, and then when he switches on the lights he realizes that he just knocked one of his own children's head off. Nice self defense.

Or how about:

smellysocks12
And guess what.

One night he'll wake up hearing someone stumbling around in the dark in the living room. Your buddy wakes up, grabs his golf club, and goes downstairs. When he gets there and switches on the lights he's confronted by a gun-wielding criminal who holds the family hostage, ties them up, rapes his children and wife and shoots them all dead in cold blood. Nice self defense.

Aren't hypotheticals wonderful?
 
Where would I draw the line at self defense?
I'd say that as soon as you've eliminated the danger in the least-fatal manner, killing only if necessary, then you've reached the outer limits of self defense.

If the desire to kill is greater than the need to defend then you then
a) You have problems
b) This is going into aggrevated assault territory.

I don't believe in killing, but in certain circumstances it's kill or be killed. I can't put it plainer than that.
 
danoff
...Principal among these facts is that Guns are used for self-defense as many as 2.5 Million times every year...

That's the Kleck study, and that's his high estimate. His range was 2,500,000 to 800,000. All the gun advocates, of course, ignore his low-end number and cite only the 2.5 million. His entire study is suspect, however, with many convinced that his method of estimation is flawed.

This whole issue is pretty much impossible to get a handle on considering how much "data", pro and con, is issued. For every source like you cite above, you can cite one like this:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/uninfive.htm

We can throw around stats like this, along with those you cite:

Out of the 7,875 handgun homicides reported in 1998, only 95 (1.2 percent) were justifiable handgun killings of an assailant previously unknown to the person defending themselves.

Where do those numbers come from? Who knows? How about Kleck? Do you know where he got his huge numbers? How are his worth citing as "proof"?

One number is hard and fast, however: Over 1,000,000 Americans have been killed by gunfire since 1960 or so. One million.
 
As I have personally had a home broken into more than once, I will tell the anti-gun skeptics this - A 9mm or .45 ACP handgun pointed at a person's head is a wonderful negotiation tool to persuade an unwanted guest to leave the property immediately. I've only got my Marlin 60 now, which is a long rifle, and thankfully at my new house I've never had to persuade anyone to leave with it. But should the need arise, I have sixteen hollowpoints which have X's notched into the tip for better breakup on impact. Yes, it's happened to me enough that I've put that much thought into it.

The line for self defense must be drawn on a case by case basis. If someone comes in my house with a knife, they'll be smacked with an aluminum Louisville Slugger. If they have anything larger than that, I'll handle the situation with extreme prejudice and several hollowpoints.

(Edit: Do not let this become another anti-gun thread. If you have a problem with guns, search for all of the old topics which are for the discussion of firearms laws. Don't start the discussions all over again here, please. Thank you.)
 
Famine
Or how about:



Aren't hypotheticals wonderful?


It's more likely to find your own kids in the house than some guy raping and killing your family.


Seriously famine, go move to the US of A. You'd like it much better there with your mentality.
 
smellysocks12
It's more likely to find your own kids in the house than some guy raping and killing your family.
Yup. And I'm much more likely not to shoot my own kids, too. Duh.
Seriously famine, go move to the US of A. You'd like it much better there with your mentality.
Seriously, smellysocks, could you possibly resist the tempatation to turn every Opinions thread you enter into another chance to bash us violent, stupid, sociopathic Americans?

Because your mentality is getting seriously old.
 
Duke
Yup. And I'm much more likely not to shoot my own kids, too. Duh.

Seriously, smellysocks, could you possibly resist the tempatation to turn every Opinions thread you enter into another chance to bash us violent, stupid, sociopathic Americans?

Because your mentality is getting seriously old.


Accidents happen.



And I wasn't even bashing your country. I was just saying that Famine's train of thought is on the same track as the average American one. Tell me that I wasn't wrong.


It's obvious that when it's about guns Americans on the average have a very different opinion than people from any other country, with a couple of exceptions here and there like Famine.
 
FoolKiller
Please, tell me you aren't seriously this insensitive? Perhaps you missed the story where the sex offender broke into the house, killed the parents, took the kids, and then police found the dead boy's body (abused), and when they captured the man he wouldn't tell them where the girl was or if she was alive.

That aint no sex offender thats a maniac sex offender pyshcopath. People like that I just want to bash all day.

I once had a pyshical exchange with a sex offender after the sex offender a Iraq man kissed a blonde girl of about 8 and she started to cry. Couple of stones boots and fists to his head connected before a police car came along and we dispersed.

We should be allowed to pillage and stone these dirty a**holes.

Of all criminals I hate sex offenders the most. The ones that prey on innocent little kids. Now those peoples heads should be blown off but I wouldnt as I would wanna kick him in and torture him for ages.



Back on topic

If someone was to break into my house right now and he was armed with a gun I could escape easily enough but my parents couldnt so Id fone 999 and some friends and tell him he could have whatever he wanted.

But if he didnt have a gun but only a knife or bat well then it would be on Id lunge ant him and give him a dirty beating and maybe rape him before letting him go to humiliate him.

But the best type of self defense is one of avoidance. Get a house alarm and a pitbull and doberman and aint no one will want to even attempt to ronb you then unless you some rich ass mofo.
 
Zardoz
One number is hard and fast, however: Over 1,000,000 Americans have been killed by gunfire since 1960 or so. One million.

Does that include Americans in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Korea?
Does that "hard and fast" number include people shot by police officers? Does it include people defending themselves in their homes? Does it include suicides?

There's a lot of padding in a number like that.
 
smellysocks12
Accidents happen.

And I wasn't even bashing your country. I was just saying that Famine's train of thought is on the same track as the average American one. Tell me that I wasn't wrong.

It's obvious that when it's about guns Americans on the average have a very different opinion than people from any other country, with a couple of exceptions here and there like Famine.

Just because an average American has an opinion doesn't make it wrong.

But if I were you, I'd read some of the other Gun Law threads (like, ones I've posted in would be a good start) before you tell me what I think.
 
Hehe, gun owners are such cowards. :P

*RUNS*

:lol:

Seriously though, a truly brave person would have nothing to fear but fear itself. No fear of terrorists, no fear of cancer, no fear of intruders.
 
Back on the topic of "where do you draw the line", a bill is being introduced in Michigan to clarify and expand self-defense rights:

Michigan House Bill 5143

It will specifically keep victims from being sued.

The article is very interesting (as is the statistics chart). Note that Adele Rivera killed two guys (with one shot) for a chump-change robbery, and she's having a hard time dealing with it. Her words:

"Having a gun is a terrible responsibility," she said. "Once you use it, things are never the same again. You can't take it back."

I get the impression that some who have posted here don't understand that.
 
Zardoz
Back on the topic of "where do you draw the line", a bill is being introduced in Michigan to clarify and expand self-defense rights:

Michigan House Bill 5143

It will specifically keep victims from being sued.

The article is very interesting (as is the statistics chart). Note that Adele Rivera killed two guys (with one shot) for a chump-change robbery, and she's having a hard time dealing with it. Her words:

"Having a gun is a terrible responsibility," she said. "Once you use it, things are never the same again. You can't take it back."

I get the impression that some who have posted here don't understand that.

:lol: Are we back on topic?
 
James2097
Most Aussies don't feel too threatening (the pink t-shirt wearing "metrosexuals" could be a bit threatening in a different way however :lol: ). Whats the feel on the street round your parts? Totally harmless or do you ever see anything untoward?
I dunno. When we moved here over 10 years ago it was great. Real nice family area etc. etc. Now it’s not so good, but I definatly don’t feel in danger when I go walking in the morning.

Mind you there was a body found about 800 meters away a few weeks ago – when we were younger there was some rumour (just between us kids) that there was a mudering gang of druggies that hung out in the bush, turns out the body was found in that part of the bush! :scared:

:lol:

But no, it’s pretty good.

Blake
 
smellysocks12
Haha, redneck. This is beyond ridiculous. If you actually buy a gun to shoot to kill, you're a sicko. A beanbag shotgun doesn't kill and is perfect to incapacitate ANYONE. If you would shoot a burglar and let him bleed to death without calling any emergency services to try and save his life you're a worse criminal than the burglar.

Now where they hell would I get a beanbag gun? Duh. Why would I need one, when I have so many 12 gauges to choose from. Plus, my wife's .357 Lady Smity. my Smith 696 or my son's .22. We're shooters, so if you're coming into my home, you had better make sure I invited you, you're delivering a pizza or you're serving a warrant. If not, you can kiss your ass good-bye.

No, I would not let a burglar bleed to death in my home. I'd drag him outside first and let him bleed out on the lawn.

Why does this scare you so easily? Like to break into houses for a little stealing, eh? Don't come around my house... we're prepared for the likes of you. (Insert your own Red Neck saying here)
 
Solid Lifters
...I have so many 12 gauges to choose from. Plus, my wife's .357 Lady Smity. my Smith 696 or my son's .22. We're shooters...

Maybe you missed my previous post:

Post 23

Just curious about why you feel the need to be so heavily-armed and train for violent attacks.
 
Zardoz
Maybe you missed my previous post:

Post 23

Just curious about why you feel the need to be so heavily-armed and train for violent attacks.
Try reading a local paper every once in a while, and read what happens to the people in your community. If you do, and don't feel the need for a gun, that's fine. Where I live, everybody has a firearm. Even the anti gun people I've met have changed their minds about firearm ownership. Californians aren't so anti-gun anymore, despite the continous activities of the political anti-gun establishment.
 
Damn. I really want to get into the gun rights/gun control stuff, but I'll respect Ghost's request. :D

I think Young Warrior said something like, if the burglar comes into your house just to steal, let them do their business and don't fight, or something like that? That is the craziest think I've ever heard! How are we supposed to know that after he is done, he won't tie you up, hold you hostage? or assault your loved ones? I don't know about Europe or Australia, but in the U.S., most of the criminals steal, because they need money to buy drugs. A lot of the druggies are not really stable in the head.

Foolkiller said that if you have a gun in the house, kids will most likely find it, and I agree. And if a family decides not to own a gun for that reason, I think that is very smart. I have a .22 rifle, but I can probably do more damage by swinging it than shooting at someone. :lol: It's just for target shooting, and is not really designed as a weapon. Rifle is kept in the case, ammunition in a separate case and rifle is not loaded.

To the people who thinks gun owners are crazy: In the U.S., criminals have guns. Personally, I'd like a effective firearm ban, but as long as criminals are armed, I support people who arm themselves, just in case.
 
a6m5
...Foolkiller said that if you have a gun in the house, kids will most likely find it, and I agree. And if a family decides not to own a gun for that reason, I think that is very smart...


I had a Winchester 1200 riot gun until our son turned 11. My wife and I decided that there was no way to have it safely in the house other than to bury it deep in the attic, unloaded, with the shells stored somewhere else, which meant that there was no point in having it at all.

I hacksawed it into four pieces and tossed it. Anybody who has a gun and a teenage boy in the house at the same time is just rolling dice.
 
Zardoz
I had a Winchester 1200 riot gun until our son turned 11. My wife and I decided that there was no way to have it safely in the house other than to bury it deep in the attic, unloaded, with the shells stored somewhere else, which meant that there was no point in having it at all.

I hacksawed it into four pieces and tossed it. Anybody who has a gun and a teenage boy in the house at the same time is just rolling dice.
Sierra_RE6528_open.jpg
 
AS a Californian by birth, and now a Kansan by the Grace of Uncle Sam's military notions,
I have to agree with Solid.

My favorite saying: "An armed society is a polite society."
Contrary to popular belief, we 'Murikens are not not all wearing Stetson's and spurs, walking around with our "hogleg" Colt Single Actions tied down to our strongside thigh ready to blast away at any threat, real or imagined, that pops up in our sights.

I don't keep a gun in my house, other than an Airsoft and an old .175 calibre BB gun.
However, I grew up in a house where guns were kept, and I have been extensively trained in the use of firearms.
And if you know that 5 of the twenty houses on the street are occupied by gun owners, and you don't know which 5 houses, how likely are you to try a "home invasion" on any house on the block?

I believe that every person on this planet has the right to protect their home and the people therein. I don't give a rip about the stuff, it can be fairly easily replaced. But if in desperation you enter my home, and look like you're going to hurt me or mine, I will send you out of here in an ambulance, if you're lucky. If not I am perfectly able to put you out of my misery, and everyone else's with a plastic drinking straw. (you really don't want to know)

As for the comment about sex offenders being "lame pansies." Ted Bundy was a HUGE man. Most of the sex offenders I have met in the Kansas State Prison system are not people you would trifle with on the street.

Another favorite saying: "God made all men, Sam Colt made them equal." In other words if someone is thinking of overpowering another person, a gun makes for a wonderful last ditch equalizer.

As for Solid's gun collection:
Some folks happen to collect guns for fun and sport. As a by product of learning to shoot a bird on the wing, or a deer that is 100+ yards away, you learn to hit something as big as an attacking human. AND he's not the guy you have to worry about. Worry about the guy that only has ONE gun, and practices regularly.


And before you tell me that it's not self defense to shoot an armed assailant that is tweny feet away, do the math.
How long does it take the average person to run 100 yard? (13 to 15 seconds)
Divide that by 10. So the average person could cover 10 YARDS in 1.3 to 1.5 seconds.
Cut that in half again for a distance of 15 feet. Add in the time it takes the average human to react to a stimuli (0.44 seconds.) Are you getting the picture?
In most places, you will never need your gun to shoot someone in self defense.
Brandishing the weapon is enough to get most criminals to flee the scene.

As a comparison, what is your car's top speed? How often do you drive it that fast? How often do Corvette owners pull down a 4.3 second 0-60 run?
Why do you "need" all that power?
Yes, it's an "apples to oranges" comparison. But it is a relavant question.

Guns are fun to learn to use. Someone once told me about shooting, "Hit one target and you're hooked. Miss one, and you're hooked for life."

And for Joe (Blazin' Extreme): Sorry I missed the last few pages of "excitement".
If you want to stop someone that is absorbing bullets like a sponge, drop your aim to the waist/pelvic area. It's still "center mass", easier to hit than a moving kneecap, and a big 200 grain "dishnose" .45 will shatter a pelvic bone like hammer on a bone china teacup.
He very likely will not die (unless you hit the femoral artery), but he will pile up like a deer solidly hit thru both shoulders by a .30-06.

And as far as a gun ban: I believe that it will only take guns out of the hands of the lawfully armed citizens.
The criminals don't give a rip if they law bans gun. They are criminals after all. What's one more broken law to them?
 
Zardoz
I had a Winchester 1200 riot gun until our son turned 11. My wife and I decided that there was no way to have it safely in the house other than to bury it deep in the attic, unloaded, with the shells stored somewhere else, which meant that there was no point in having it at all.

I hacksawed it into four pieces and tossed it. Anybody who has a gun and a teenage boy in the house at the same time is just rolling dice.
I think teenagers can be taught/trained to handle firearms. You could also get a gun safe like Solid's pic there. :lol: But absolute safest way to avoid any tragic accident is like you and Foolkiller said, don't have one in your house. Accidental shooting happens all the time, and it does often result in fatality. I have a rifle now, and am planning of getting a handgun in the near future. If I get a kid, I will get a safe only I can open, or will get rid of the guns.
 

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