Why CSA is just ridiculous and should be banned for wheels

[John Crellin]

After the FIA Test seasons are done (probably soon, it's already test season 10 i think) there will be proper FIA championships where the top players will be invited to test for their entry into GT Academy - this lays at the very core of GT, especially GTSport. It's the concept behind the game itself and why it's not called GT7. Now, I'm not saying you can't play with a controller, of course you can. But my point is that these championships should be as close to the real thing as the game possibly get, and that's why CSA needs to be thrown out of (only) the FIA online stuff.

Now I honestly don't know how fast one can be with a controller vs a wheel - but I can tell you that even if the answer is "much faster" - GT Academy would be irrelevant because if you spend 6 months playing GTS with a controller, it will be quite difficult replicating the same performance on a wheel - and I'm pretty sure the GT Academy guys know this obvious fact as well - therefore no, that statement is not relevant for you. The whole reason behind my intervention is to talk to people who want to compete for GT Academy (which is a REAL LIFE racing academy) and should be tested in the most realistic way the game allows (hence no CSA). A control input from a DS4 is unrealistic from the get-go for obvious reasons - real cars have wheels and pedals.

So you can stop the butt-hurting and go back enjoying your game. I am talking about a specific pool of gamers within GTS that play the FIA championships for the very reason they were created.

I would also highly encourage you to get yourself a sim rig - chair + wheels. You can find some good deals out there. You'll enjoy the game so much more.

Im not butt-hurt I just see a lot of posts from people who spent a lot of money outside of the game to improve their playing experience/ability and it doesnt seem to factor into their sweeping genrealizations thats CSA should be banned. Dont forget that I also compete in the FIA championships so this affects me too.

And Ill buy your rig for half price if your offering

 

[VFOURMAX1]

What is really kinda sad at the end of the day is the way people stand out to defend CSA. They keep tryin to justify it in many ways and it makes no sense. I'm an AVID Motorsport fan, and I really like to know all the details. No, CSA is definitely NOT an assist that can be found in ANY Motorsport OR road car - that is a fact, agree with it or not, I won't get into a debate on that because that's like debating a flat-Earther.

You can use whichever tool, but I think you're missing the WHOLE point of this conversation - the inital post and this whole thread has one idea: CSA, being an unrealistic aid that helps you and presents no penalties (unlike TC which helps when losing traction but takes away corner exit speed through traction), should NOT be allowed

You are also missing a proper wheel for GTS, which makes your interventions quite irrelevant since i'm talking about harnessing your driver skills WITHOUT CSA. That does not, obviously, encompass someone playing with a controller, since IRL cars are controlled via wheels, paddles/shifters and pedals.

As far as my contradiction, it's clear that i'm talking about different levels of simulation but all you're interested in is proving something esle for the sake of proving you're somehow right.

You cannot even stay on the same track with what you claim to be objecting to.

You start out downing CSA PERIOD. Then that changes to only in FIA championships and then that changes only to players that use a wheel.

Then it is not comparing the game to real life life but yet it is, then it changes as to how comparing at different levels somehow now justifies statements that a few post ago you claim to have never made to begin with.

When you understand your position and are able to maintain such a position without that position changing with every subsequent post the chances of a reasonable discussion increase greatly.

 

[NommyNom]

Maybe someday GTS will do cup racing where they start forcing certain aids off, at that point we'll see what happens to the leaderboards but for now, if they allow it, do it if you want to. all the aids you want, cut the corners (haha that was a fun thread), use those powerful cars, whatever view, it's all there for people to do with what they will, it's only test season, no one knows what's going to happen (forcing views, forcing aids off, stronger penalty systems, no more ghosting on a crash). In the end, you're going for faster lap times which hopefully equate to wins (or better finishing positions) and whatever it takes to get you there, do it.

If they decide take those away and you start to fall behind again, then you'll deal with that situation at that point while others who are already used to it won't be affected. Again, no one really knows what's going to happen, do what you do and when things change, you adapt (kind of the essence of racing, huh?).

 

[John Crellin]

You cannot even stay on the same track with what you claim to be objecting to.

You start out downing CSA PERIOD. Then that changes to only in FIA championships and then that changes only to players that use a wheel.

Then it is not comparing the game to real life life but yet it is, then it changes as to how comparing at different levels somehow now justifies statements that a few post ago you claim to have never made to begin with.

When you understand your position and are able to maintain such a position without that position changing with every subsequent post the chances of a reasonable discussion increase greatly.

To be fair he has been changing his position to a more relaxed and reasonable one. That is the point of debate, to change peoples opinions, and it seems to have worked

 

[Rinsky]

Nah, I don't agree, though I get your point.

Thing is, ABS and TC are both allowed in the racing divisions which GTS emulates. "The Real Driving Simulator" should allow whatever is allowed in reality - what I would like is to be able to switch ABS on the fly (not just before the race) with up to 5 positions - but that's a different topic.

Don't look at a lower DR letter to be a negative thing. It would be matching you with like-minded people who race with those exact same assist. It would also even the playing field more than the current system as the DR in Sport Mode race's is all over the Spectrum now.

The fastest way around the track in GT is with no assist its always been that way and still is in Sport for those who are talented enough to achieve that goal.
Why would you want to race against them knowing you don't stand a chance against them using assist.

Having DR tied into what assist you use would definitely make the race your in more competitive I would think by eliminating the faster guys from them and giving others a better chance of winning against others their own level.

I race with ABS always have always will and I use TC depending on the power of the car and tires I'm required to run. So for me to be in a race with everyone else doing the same thing would be much more competitive than always getting put in with S and A driver's as I do now.

I think it would be better than the current system as it kills two birds with one stone.
However nothing is perfect and would need some adjustments to work. It's just an idea I had that's never going to happen anyway.

 

[barkohba]

Im not butt-hurt I just see a lot of posts from people who spent a lot of money outside of the game to improve their playing experience/ability and it doesnt seem to factor into their sweeping genrealizations thats CSA should be banned. Dont forget that I also compete in the FIA championships so this affects me too.

And Ill buy your rig for half price if your offering

I'm not selling )

But as a recommendation of what I have and i'm really happy with it considering the price:

Logitech G29 + shifter (to be fair, the clutch is still semi-broken in GTS)
Playseat revolution
And the following mods which i think are really needed:

From https://www.3drap.it/logi-mods/ the following:

H Shifter V2 - makes the shifter more stiff and feeling less toy-like
Brake pedal mode "Rally" - makes the break pedal much stiffer and more progressive - really helps if you run with ABS on "weak" to avoid locking the breaks easy
Clutch pedal mod preloading & Throttle pedal mod preloading - makes the clutch and throttle a touch more stiff.

And I'm not saying that CSA should be BANNED - never have - i'm saying it shouldn't be allowed in FIA championships.

Now the discussion with using DS4 is an entirely different one. Of course it would be stupid for people that don't have a wheel to not be able to play online - but the fact simply is this game is an entirely different thing when using a wheel.

You cannot even stay on the same track with what you claim to be objecting to.

You start out downing CSA PERIOD. Then that changes to only in FIA championships and then that changes only to players that use a wheel.

Then it is not comparing the game to real life life but yet it is, then it changes as to how comparing at different levels somehow now justifies statements that a few post ago you claim to have never made to begin with.

When you understand your position and are able to maintain such a position without that position changing with every subsequent post the chances of a reasonable discussion increase greatly.

You obviously didn't reed my posts from the beginning (a few pages back)..

I only discussed about not allowing CSA in FIA championships period.

It's really not worth for me to have any kind of exchange with someone who's being completely intellectually dishonest with my points.

You clearly did not get what I'm saying - probably because that's the only way you can keep your point, which frankly doesn't have much relevance to me anymore.

 

[John Crellin]

Now the discussion with using DS4 is an entirely different one. Of course it would be stupid for people that don't have a wheel to not be able to play online - but the fact simply is this game is an entirely different thing when using a wheel.

your not kidding

H Shifter V2 - makes the shifter more stiff and feeling less toy-like
Brake pedal mode "Rally" - makes the break pedal much stiffer and more progressive - really helps if you run with ABS on "weak" to avoid locking the breaks easy
Clutch pedal mod preloading & Throttle pedal mod preloading - makes the clutch and throttle a touch more stiff.

these look like driver aids to me

seems a bit unfair to us DS4 players just looking for an equal playing field /s

 

[barkohba]

Don't look at a lower DR letter to be a negative thing. It would be matching you with like-minded people who race with those exact same assist. It would also even the playing field more than the current system as the DR in Sport Mode race's is all over the Spectrum now.

The fastest way around the track in GT is with no assist its always been that way and still is in Sport for those who are talented enough to achieve that goal.
Why would you want to race against them knowing you don't stand a chance against them using assist.

Having DR tied into what assist you use would definitely make the race your in more competitive I would think by eliminating the faster guys from them and giving others a better chance of winning against others their own level.

I race with ABS always have always will and I use TC depending on the power of the car and tires I'm required to run. So for me to be in a race with everyone else doing the same thing would be much more competitive than always getting put in with S and A driver's as I do now.

I think it would be better than the current system as it kills two birds with one stone.
However nothing is perfect and would need some adjustments to work. It's just an idea I had that's never going to happen anyway.

There's a lot of issues with the FIA championship and that's why it's still called "Test championship" I would think.

There's SR jumping all over the place - players being really dirty especially on S because they "think" it'll take a long time for it to lower to A/B, and then that inevitably makes your SR down considering how badly the penalty system is implemented and whom it affects.

Then there's the penalty system itself - it should be either like in reality - pit stop run through or stop and go for x seconds, or you should keep your penalty to the end and then it substracts from your time - you can literally not stop or slow down AT ALL for even a 5 second penalty and in 3-4-5 laps of a race it's gone.

But that's a different discussion.

We're here talking about CSA - an unrealistic mod which gives you an advantage. I consider this should NOT be allowed in FIA championship races.

your not kidding



these look like driver aids to me

seems a bit unfair to us DS4 players just looking for an equal playing field /s

Nope, they're not aides. They make a mediocre pedal feel more "real". If you have more money you can get something like a CSL elite which has more weight in the shifter/pedals - like in real life. Your feet do get a bit painful after 7-8 laps, but it feels better.

As far as "leve playing field" - I agree. I think the game should match players depending on what they use. People using wheels with other people using wheels and the same for controller users. That would be fair.

your not kidding



these look like driver aids to me

seems a bit unfair to us DS4 players just looking for an equal playing field /s

To be fair many settings you can do on the wheel can make life easier. Low-springed pedals make your life easier - also almost no ffb for really fast direction changes and counter steering - thing is if you ever get in a GT competition, which is the goal for many FIA championship players - you're then faced with a fixed setup and you'll be somewhat unprepared for the weight of the wheel etc - and then you eventually (if you're good) get to the GT Academy maybe (who knows), and you'll be all over the place in front of a real steering wheel.

As I said earlier, all these smalll things - eliminating unrealistic aids so the car behaves as close to real life as the game allows ; using a wheel with adequately heavy FFB and pedal strenght - in the long run help you transition to a real car a bit easier as they try to emulate the real feel as much as possible within a video game simulation. That's what I'm personally after - something that feels as real as possible given the available software/hardware in the comfort of my house.

 

[John Crellin]

Nope, they're not aides. They make a mediocre pedal feel more "real". If you have more money you can get something like a CSL elite which has more weight in the shifter/pedals - like in real life. Your feet do get a bit painful after 7-8 laps, but it feels better.

As far as "leve playing field" - I agree. I think the game should match players depending on what they use. People using wheels with other people using wheels and the same for controller users. That would be fair.

Stiffening the throttle, having load cells in your pedals, brake pedal settings, are all ways that make it easier to get around a track in a car it "aids your driving"

I think youre underestimating the number of wheel users online at a given time.
Also, There is nothing out there that proves to me that the wheel users are faster than DS4 users either. Most people just say that wheels+pedals improve consistency but both input methods have their drawbacks.

That's what I'm personally after - something that feels as real as possible given the available software/hardware in the comfort of my house.

key words

 

[barkohba]

Stiffening the throttle, having load cells in your pedals, brake pedal settings, are all ways that make it easier to get around a track in a car it "aids your driving"

I think youre underestimating the number of wheel users online at a given time.
Also, There is nothing out there that proves to me that the wheel users are faster than DS4 users either. Most people just say that wheels+pedals improve consistency but both input methods have their drawbacks.


key words

I'm positive i've repeatedly stressed out that this is my opinion/me personally/what I consider multiple times within this thread.

Also, loading the pedals are really not aides, mate. They are just necessary on SOME setups because cheap setups have really toy-like feeling pedals. The progression and pressure registered by the game is exactly the same, you still have to modulate it at the exact same pressure.

 

[John Crellin]

Also, loading the pedals are really not aides, mate. They are just necessary on SOME setups because cheap setups have really toy-like feeling pedals. The progression and pressure registered by the game is exactly the same, you still have to modulate it at the exact same pressure.

I would argue that by "stiffening the pedals" you would have to apply greater pressure to the pedal to get it to move an equivalent distance. this lets you fine tune your braking and be a bit more smooth with it. If i put a heavier spring in my DS4 triggers it would help a lot i think

the point here is that you are able to adjust settings for your input method that enable you to drive in a more realistic, comfortable, and consistent way. That sounds like an aid

 

[Rinsky]

There's a lot of issues with the FIA championship and that's why it's still called "Test championship" I would think.

There's SR jumping all over the place - players being really dirty especially on S because they "think" it'll take a long time for it to lower to A/B, and then that inevitably makes your SR down considering how badly the penalty system is implemented and whom it affects.

Then there's the penalty system itself - it should be either like in reality - pit stop run through or stop and go for x seconds, or you should keep your penalty to the end and then it substracts from your time - you can literally not stop or slow down AT ALL for even a 5 second penalty and in 3-4-5 laps of a race it's gone.

But that's a different discussion.

We're here talking about CSA - an unrealistic mod which gives you an advantage. I consider this should NOT be allowed in FIA championship races.

I haven't even tried the FIA race's yet to even know what kinda mess is created in those. So far I just stick with the daily race's until I feel I'm fast enough to be competitive in the FIA.
I've tried using CSA on weak yesterday in the Gr.1 race and didn't really see much advantage to it as it rarely lit up but I'm also a DS4 user.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Isn't this entire debate semantics?

All high end sports cars have electronic intervention to "steer" the car when the the user has messed it up. Yes, race cars have some too where it's allowed (and in some where it isn't)

the 911 GT3RS, LaFerrari, The McLarens, etc, etc. They all have some sort of assistance with the steering of the car. McLaren's F1 cars used to have torque vectoring.

Whether the steering is achieved through and e-diff, rear wheel steering, fly by wire steering intervention, torque vectoring, or individual brake application, electronics are there to intervene because, if they weren't, the result would be catastrophic. The Merc GT Black has an amazing drift control that allows you to select the angle of drift! How is that NOT akin to CSA? A drift IS an exercise in controlling counter steer and throttle.

I am not a user of driver aids beyond ABS. So, MAN, this CSA must be incredible and I must be totally missing out! I am, consistently, only 1 second away from the top 10 so CSA MUST be the way I become the best player in the western hemisphere!! Watch out ladies because the reign of Voodoovaj beings as I go FULL CSA!!!

 

[JacksHerer]

I've said it before, but it probably got lost in 11 pages.

In qualifying, CSA will help you reach your fastest lap. If you are a few tenths from the leaderboards with it off, and you had to lift or were taking a particular corner carefully, then you could switch CSA on and floor that corner to get in the leaderboards.

Forgetting about leaderboards and thinking about everyone else in your race, if you are a mere mortal inhabitant of planet earth, you will benefit from having CSA on. If you are like my alien hero Czech Derek,then switching CSA on will do very little to nothing in qualifying.

In racing, CSA will enable you to run at or close to your qualifying pace with less chance of having a time consuming accident. Effectively enabling you to lap quicker than you would with it off.

I was in a race where my hero started on pole, but came 2nd to another top ten guy who had CSA on.

So in a race, even aliens could benefit from switching CSA on.

 

[LennyB]

electronics are there to intervene because, if they weren't, the result would be catastrophic.

 

[GTWelsh]

I've just ran CSA on for the first time competitively in sport mode. 1 mess up, 1 win and a 2nd place. I'v not come front half of the field in ages now im winning against some DR S drivers even. The car number was 11. To show my DR ranking in the race.

Over half the people in there had it on too. Saved the replay and checked.

Its overpowered, end of argument really. It's just flipped sport mode on its head for me.

While it's avaliable though I suggest you use it. Everyone else is.

.

I know I said I wouldn't comment again but I am truly shocked at the results.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I've just ran CSA on for the first time competitively in sport mode. 1 mess up, 1 win and a 2nd place. I'v not come front half of the field in ages now im winning against some DR S drivers even. The car number was 11. To show my DR ranking in the race.

Over half the people in there had it on too. Saved the replay and checked.

Its overpowered, end of argument really. It's just flipped sport mode on its head for me.

While it's avaliable though I suggest you use it. Everyone else is.

.

I know I said I wouldn't comment again but I am truly shocked at the results.

I've just had the opposite experience. I was actually HOPING I was wrong and that it was over powered.

The BMW M6 is all over the top 10 so I broke mine out and with the confidence that I could get to 1 second (+/-) of the top ten without CSA, I MUST be heading for a top 10 time.

Unfortunately for me, my best time was 1:34.3 with CSA on STRONG. CSA on weak was no better.

Now, I had noticed it blinking, similarly to when TCS blinks when it's active. I also know from TCS that the fastest way around the track is to try to NOT have the TCS blinking.

So, back to CSA off and good old fashioned smooth lines and such and ... 1:33.7 (the 10th time in the top 10 is 1:32.6)

There goes my reign of dominance out the window.

Have you driven something with ridiculous power to weight ratios in real life? Or, really, have you pushed any high power vehicle to it's limits? Electronics are helpful and I have yet to hear someone say that modern electronics are a hindrance to their speed around a race track. There's a local group of exotic car owners and they frequent the local tracks. Not one of them have ever mentioned the electronics being anything but a good thing.

Here's Jeremy Clarkson driving the Ferrari 599 GTO.




After 11 pages of debate and me hoping that CSA would give me an advantage, it turns out that it is, as the regular CS users have testified to, a safety at best. I will continue to drive without it until it starts making me faster.

 

[LennyB]

Have you driven something with ridiculous power to weight ratios in real life?

Yes I have, many times actually.

Now if you want to think only of playboys spending dady's money on a super car to bump around from bar to bar...

 

[JacksHerer]

If you switch it on it needs to be on strong, and to benefit from it you need to push harder, sooner, if you drive the same with it on as with it off then it won't magically make your car faster.


Edit : electronics aids at a track day may make you feel like a racing god, but just don't over hear what the guys are saying about you in their non electronic aids cars.

 

[GTWelsh]

Bike electronics I have used. 2017 GSXR 1000 in my picture. TC helped me push harder than ever before without worrying about binning a 15 grand bike. About 1000bhp per tonne. Electronics are wonderful.

Also my quali time for daily C is 1.32.6, rocking CSA, different regions though I think.

 

[Voodoovaj]

If you switch it on it needs to be on strong, and to benefit from it you need to push harder, sooner, if you drive the same with it on as with it off then it won't magically make your car faster.


Edit : electronics aids at a track day may make you feel like a racing god, but just don't over hear what the guys are saying about you in their non electronic aids cars.

Just the point being that IRL aids are there, and they do affect the control of the car.

So, if I understand your CSA comment correctly, if I drive with more skill and push the limits further I can then see the benefit of CSA. So CSA is only really a benefit to the drivers who are already fast enough to not really need it? Hmmm interesting.

 

[JacksHerer]

In real life in my low powered rear wheel drive car, nothing felt better than accidentally applying too much throttle on a round-about in the rain.

What I like about driving games, is that I can hoon around without any damage to me,car, or anyone else. The thought of switching aids on in a game defeats why I'm playing the game.

 

[LennyB]

So, if I understand your CSA comment correctly, if I drive with more skill and push the limits further I can then see the benefit of CSA. So CSA is only really a benefit to the drivers who are already fast enough to not really need it? Hmmm interesting.

If you drive in an unrealistic way with poor lines and braking points and WOt you can exploit the aid and gain quite a bit. it's also useful to scub speed in a variety of ways it's not intended to. Push it hard, push the car past what you'd expect the car to be able to.

 

[NosOsH]

In real life in my low powered rear wheel drive car, nothing felt better than accidentally applying too much throttle on a round-about in the rain.

What I like about driving games, is that I can hoon around without any damage to me,car, or anyone else. The thought of switching aids on in a game defeats why I'm playing the game.

what car are you rocking?
My first and only fun car ive owned was an 88 rx7 n/a
very fun

 

[JacksHerer]

was rocking, I've grown too comfortable to my air con modern car, so my aircooled beetle chassis kitcar lol (porsche 356 replica) sits in the garage nowadays.

 

[NosOsH]

was rocking, I've grown too comfortable to my air con modern car, so my aircooled beetle chassis kitcar lol (porsche 356 replica) sits in the garage nowadays.

super cool ive heard of those with a suby boxer engine mated to an older porsche tranny
either way very cool car

 

[Voodoovaj]

I had 1968 Olds 4-4-2 Convertible.

If you drive in an unrealistic way with poor lines and braking points and WOt you can exploit the aid and gain quite a bit. it's also useful to scub speed in a variety of ways it's not intended to. Push it hard, push the car past what you'd expect the car to be able to.

Which is it?

Does this give me an advantage or not? If I can almost achieve the top 10 without it, will it put me in the top 10?

If not, then it is of no benefit.

 

[JacksHerer]

Yeh, they can be silly quick. Mine just has 75hp at the wheels, but it only weighs about 800kg, and I've got fat fuchs, so need wet road to lose traction

Edit : how close is close? on Brands Hatch/Suzuka/Big Willow/Bathurst down hill section I would think it has most benefit.

 

[LennyB]

Which is it?

That depends on what you are willing to do and what you are capable of learning, I made a carrier out of exploiting gt4 physics in all sorts of online racing, I could keep up with and beat many fast drivers doing things the right way. It's not outside the rules of the game, it's not cheating or unfair, it's using what is given to achieve the best result.

If you can stop thinking of the game as a driving simulator and start thinking of it as a tool you will quickly see what I mean.

 

[Izain]

I am not complaining, whining or moaning. Nor am I telling people what to use or accuse them for anything.

That's actually the definition of what you're doing. If you want PD to disable it for wheels you're trying to get them to play the way YOU want. Good luck with that.

I am just ridiculing the serious, even top notch drivers that use CSA.
I think that ridicule is stronger than any argument here.

By all means keep it up. Constantly ridiculing how some people want to play is your strongest tool in convincing the rest of the world you're a dbag. That approach has never worked for anyone, ever.

You have ZERO right to tell other people how to play if it doesn't affect you. My recommendation is a regimen of sedatives and never racing outside of no-csa lobbies.