Why no one is talking about how ridiculously expensive the Jaguar XJ13 is?

[Benny44]

That's a very personal choice, for me the titles I have put the most time into, by a long way, are those that give you access to everything from the word go.

I don't mind a title that has unlocks and progression, but it needs to be balanced (which right now GT 7 isn't), and offer all cars to try either as loan cars that reduces payout or have a 'free drive' mode that allows you to try them, both of which other title use well.

As it stands right now GT7 is aiming for it's showrooms, be they new, used or legends, to reflect reality, well I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't in reality ever buy a car without a road test.

I can agree with this. Put them in an arcade mode or something (preferably somewhere you can't use them online). That way those of us who want to work for something special get their reward and are able to sort of 'show off' online. And the others would still be able to drive them. The Crew 2 has a cool thing where you can test drive a car so many miles from the dealership. Something like that would work too.

 

[Johnnn]

Another thing against playing now is crazy rubber-banding. I usually do races with some AI level meaning the fastest one has consistent lap times. If fastest one has about 1:05, can start last and beat first in 10 laps. But it's not how it works here. I thought only Forza has very bad AI. I am not sure who is the target audience.

 

[wheelhp]

No, as much as you stomp up and down saying that this is why people are mad, people are mad because the game is more or less predicated on grinding in order to get anywhere because the in game economy is designed to inflate play time numbers to an untenable degree, and to also push micro-transactions into people's faces. Considering the fact that Polyphony by their own admission designed the game around car collecting, the fact that one cannot really get these higher end cars unless they grind Fisherman's Ranch until they get carpal tunnel syndrome instead of playing the game naturally and getting credits that way (which also loops back around to the utter lack of content at launch, another pretty clear tactic on Polyphony's part) in order to get the Platinum trophy which, it once again should be noted requires you to collect the 330 P4, XJ13 (the overall subject of this thread), or the Ford Mk. IV, or 100% completion...sure says a lot, doesn't?


As opposed to you, dancing around the fact that these criticisms are just, and are pointing out Polyphony's scummy tactics with regards to the in game economy, which are due to the full throated integration of micro-transactions into the game's economy?

There's a whole swack of positive threads if you want an outlet about how good the game is. There's also threads like this which are critical of the way Polyphony have created this game in order to ultimately fatten their pockets in about the most predatory way possible. Feel free to turn around and head into one of those positive threads if you can't take the heat of criticism.


By your own admission we can't criticize games. Besides, there's a war in Ukraine and starving children in Africa, why should we care about a video game developer making profits off the backs of 'weaker' people's FOMO and potential addiction problems? It's simply small fry stuff!

lmao this is such a goddamn joke, pretty clear by this point you simply don't care about any other viewpoints but your own.

New content simply kicks this issue down the road considering the game, very clearly, is basing it's entire gameplay loop, outside the menus, on grinding. Sure, it means more people have more stuff to chew through, but it ultimately doesn't matter because no matter how long they take, they'll all eventually reach the same fork in the road that in order to get credits and to get the cars the game expects you to collect all of, otherwise there wouldn't be a car collection screen, you either need to grind out the most optimum race, endlessly, or take the 'easy route' and buy micro-transactions, which ultimately aren't an easy way out because if you want to go anywhere aside from the 2 million that you have to pay close to 30 dollars Canadian for, you need to buy more and more.

How can you not see how utterly depraved this all is? How can any of you that seem intent on defending Polyphony for this tactic not see what Polyphony are trying to do? And why, most of all, can I tell that if this was any other game, this forum would be apoplectic in their condemnation for that game, yet Polyphony does it and there are literal excuses made up to try and defend them, and posit themselves as just for making the in game economy that way?

This is hypocrisy of the highest order by this point, and it's utterly pathetic how people seem intent on dying on the sword of a company that doesn't care about them at all, on a feature and set of tactics that would be vilified if done by literally anyone else. And I've been on this forum long enough to know that is 100% the case.

Wow this has gone on for way too long. Must be said I agree in entirety with your analysis and like how you countered with every rationale there is left in this debate.

Hypocrisy aside, it's hard to ignore, but Evidently, a problem here is that he has demonstrated an inability to take off the nostalgia glasses and be open to recognize PD as being capable of depravity nor anything shady. To him perhaps they're just "the last nice game devs from teh PS1 days who earned their keep and deserve everything their way". I don't really know how such fanboys think but that's my closest half-guess. He's not gonna accuse PD of depravity because he cannot see a fault when his hilariously low standards for the game [that keep getting lower] are already being met. That is the unmatched mental gymnastics of being "privileged" to pay full price to drive a car in a car game and immediately say it's like a 9/10 game because that's all it needs to do, it seems, which a good career mode apparently doesn't count towards the review score now, but is instead just "nice to have" and doesn't change the review. It's come to my attention he cares about exactly nothing of value in this debate, of which as it's the case gives him no logical reason to be defending PD so blindly nor a reason to participate in said debate, yet he still participates as if he holds a position in this debate, however position always moves... I'd shout Charlatan if this we're a real debate... It's just such a shame when those with a cognitive dissonance repeatedly defend a camouflaged position without an iota of self awareness, an honest thought, nor care in the world....makes for some pretty wilde readin.. though humorous!

 

[NotThePrez]

So what would be your payouts? How long do you think it should take to buy a 20 million dollar car? Through normal gameplay. Not necessarily online, but in career. How long do you think it should take to get, say, that 12.6 million dollar Jag?

First and foremost, if it were up to me, the Hagerty dealership would not exist, at least not in its current form. Part of my issue is that only a small selection of these cars are available at any one time, and if you miss a car, you don't know when it'll be available again, which creates its own significant source of frustration. Having a dedicated spot for the rare cars is fine, but the revolving-door mechanic...

Beyond that, I would just do more to give players options to make money. I'd let players have the ability to sell cars and parts for extra cash with no negative impact to collector level (I'd probably get rid of the collector level too, honestly), as well as re-introduce GT5s car-trading system, but with a couple tweaks. The idea of letting people "rent" players cars for online races could be kinda neat, and has been swimming around in my head for a number of years. It would be a way to create a source of passive income, would be based on results (meaning that, depending on the event, upgrading and tuning cars would still be important for success), and it'd be just quirky enough for PD's tastes. With all that, people can still make decent cash, high-end cars aren't as easy to miss, and the Hagerty dealership can keep its dynamic pricing gimmick.

I would still make it so that there were more events that gave out prize credits similar to Fisherman's Ranch, or at least scaled appropriately with their length and difficulty level (I have yet to play GT7, so I don't know each individual events credit payout). As @Samus has already said, there really needs to be more options for higher-paying events more than anything else, so that people aren't tied to playing Fishermans Ranch over and over again for ludicrous amounts of time. Online and custom races would also get a re-vamp so that people who don't want to focus all their time on the career still had an avenue to get money and earn some of the cars in the game.

In any case, if I absolutely had to put down a hour "commitment" for the XJ13, I'd say maybeee 3-4 hours or so if you really try to maximize profits, no more than maybe 5-6 hours reasonably? The actual $20 Million cars taking 8 hours or so of gameplay at absolute most is adequate, due to their higher price point, and hopefully smaller number. More than anything in regards to those cars, I would make it so that whether you have the cars or not doesn't majorly effect progression, so that the people who want them are the people who are truly dedicated to them, without hurting any other players that don't really care.

Of course, that's all moot because I don't know how to effectively tear-down and re-design a game's economy, nor (ideally) would I be doing such a task on my own.

I think we can agree that the MTX are dirty. I don't like them. But they're so overpriced you'd have to be a special kind of foolish to buy them. Yeah, not a great defense of them, but a fool and his money are soon parted.

So now we're calling people with genuine addiction problems "fools?" Stay classy, chief.

If said Jag was $7.....well, I'd almost be tempted. But it is over 20 times that much. Insanity.

IIRC, GT Sport actually had this system, where you could just straight-up buy cars for $5 at most. While I'm still not crazy about this system, I'd be more ok with that than what's present, because you at least fully knew what you'd be getting.

The issue I have with what you're saying is that you don't like the game's economy (not including MTX). I like that it's special to own one of those cars.

With all due respect, that is 100% a you problem. There are so many other ways to make getting those cars feel special, without having a terrible grind that promotes MTX purchases. An example would be making those cars prize cars in higher-difficulty events, something that GT has historically done in the past (GT4-R89C-Gang rise up), or having some cars be "milestone" achievements, such as having a certain percentage of the game complete, or by completing all the races with a certain license rating. A car-trading system like GT5 could also work, except you have to give a car(s) similar in rarity or value to what you're trying to get. That creates a more involved system for the player, because you're potentially giving up a car(s) you may be fond of to get something you really want, which also creates a better sense of community among players.

And that you'll have to play for a couple hundred hours to reasonably get that legends trophy.

I'd rather spend a couple hundred hours actually enjoying the game, doing online races, tuning cars, etc., rather than trying to grind for 3 of the more expensive cars in the game, all of which are tied to my progression.

I would've rather had PD spend more of their initial development time making the game as whole enjoyable, and giving me a reason to come back because of that (or, more accurately, buy GT7 and a PS5 in the first place), rather than try to figure out how to best get me and other players to further line their and Sony's pockets after spending $600+ just to use their products.

So basically everyone on here (again, MTX aside) is whining because they can't have everything in the game in a week. Which is simply impatient.

Edit:

Edit: The reason I limit the race to one hour is that credits per time is linear up to an hour, and then drops drastically after that point. If you want money, it is worse to do any custom race over an hour.

That is actually disgusting. And people still defend PD in light of this?

 

[Benny44]

First and foremost, if it were up to me, the Hagerty dealership would not exist, at least not in its current form. Part of my issue is that only a small selection of these cars are available at any one time, and if you miss a car, you don't know when it'll be available again, which creates its own significant source of frustration. Having a dedicated spot for the rare cars is fine, but the revolving-door mechanic...

Beyond that, I would just do more to give players options to make money. I'd let players have the ability to sell cars and parts for extra cash with no negative impact to collector level (I'd probably get rid of the collector level too, honestly), as well as re-introduce GT5s car-trading system, but with a couple tweaks. The idea of letting people "rent" players cars for online races could be kinda neat, and has been swimming around in my head for a number of years. It would be a way to create a source of passive income, would be based on results (meaning that, depending on the event, upgrading and tuning cars would still be important for success), and it'd be just quirky enough for PD's tastes. With all that, people can still make decent cash, high-end cars aren't as easy to miss, and the Hagerty dealership can keep its dynamic pricing gimmick.

I would still make it so that there were more events that gave out prize credits similar to Fisherman's Ranch, or at least scaled appropriately with their length and difficulty level (I have yet to play GT7, so I don't know each individual events credit payout). As @Samus has already said, there really needs to be more options for higher-paying events more than anything else, so that people aren't tied to playing Fishermans Ranch over and over again for ludicrous amounts of time. Online and custom races would also get a re-vamp so that people who don't want to focus all their time on the career still had an avenue to get money and earn some of the cars in the game.

In any case, if I absolutely had to put down a hour "commitment" for the XJ13, I'd say maybeee 3-4 hours or so if you really try to maximize profits, no more than maybe 5-6 hours reasonably? The actual $20 Million cars taking 8 hours or so of gameplay at absolute most is adequate, due to their higher price point, and hopefully smaller number. More than anything in regards to those cars, I would make it so that whether you have the cars or not doesn't majorly effect progression, so that the people who want them are the people who are truly dedicated to them, without hurting any other players that don't really care.

Of course, that's all moot because I don't know how to effectively tear-down and re-design a game's economy, nor (ideally) would I be doing such a task on my own.

So now we're calling people with genuine addiction problems "fools?" Stay classy, chief.

IIRC, GT Sport actually had this system, where you could just straight-up buy cars for $5 at most. While I'm still not crazy about this system, I'd be more ok with that than what's present, because you at least fully knew what you'd be getting.

With all due respect, that is 100% a you problem. There are so many other ways to make getting those cars feel special, without having a terrible grind that promotes MTX purchases. An example would be making those cars prize cars in higher-difficulty events, something that GT has historically done in the past (GT4-R89C-Gang rise up), or having some cars be "milestone" achievements, such as having a certain percentage of the game complete, or by completing all the races with a certain license rating. A car-trading system like GT5 could also work, except you have to give a car(s) similar in rarity or value to what you're trying to get. That creates a more involved system for the player, because you're potentially giving up a car(s) you may be fond of to get something you really want, which also creates a better sense of community among players.

I'd rather spend a couple hundred hours actually enjoying the game, doing online races, tuning cars, etc., rather than trying to grind for 3 of the more expensive cars in the game, all of which are tied to my progression.

I would've rather had PD spend more of their initial development time making the game as whole enjoyable, and giving me a reason to come back because of that (or, more accurately, buy GT7 and a PS5 in the first place), rather than try to figure out how to best get me and other players to further line their and Sony's pockets after spending $600+ just to use their products.

The time you've spent on here you could've already had one of those cars! And it's a 'me problem'? Joke's on you, I have no issue, so it's not a problem for me. At all.

It's also utterly astounding you're on here arguing about how bad a game is WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT! Being negative all the time is bad for a person. If you read this thread you'd think the game is awful. Of course, since you haven't played, you wouldn't know what the game is like.

Anyway, have fun with the constant complaining. I'm off to enjoy my favorite game franchise and one of the best, if not the best, driving experiences I've had virtually

 

[NotThePrez]

The time you've spent on here you could've already had one of those cars!

And it's a 'me problem'? Joke's on you, I have no issue, so it's not a problem for me. At all.

I hate to surprise you, but the game isn't made solely for you. Just because you don't have problem with these issues doesn't mean they aren't issues at all.

My car could have 4 bald tires, a busted alignment, and be throwing up more smoke than a Snoop Dogg concert, and I could be fine with it. It would still be a major problem for everyone around me, though.

It's also utterly astounding you're on here arguing about how bad a game is WITHOUT EVEN PLAYING IT! Being negative all the time is bad for a person. If you read this thread you'd think the game is awful. Of course, since you haven't played, you wouldn't know what the game is like.

When a significant number of the most prolific and long-time members of the site, including the websites Founder and Admin/Editor-In-Chief are saying that GT7 has significant problems in certain areas, alongside a non-inconsequential number of regular members, than I think it's more than reasonable at a certain point to consider those complaints legitimate.

So far, I would still like to pick up GT7, but based on reviews, gameplay videos, and some of the consistent compliments and complaints found here, I'm not in any hurry to pick it up.

Anyway, have fun with the constant complaining. I'm off to enjoy my favorite game franchise and one of the best, if not the best, driving experiences I've had virtually

I hope you have fun. Maybe learn not to call people with addiction problems "fools" along the way, yeah?

 

[Scaff]

The time you've spent on here you could've already had one of those cars!

The 'time' to get it isn't the only issue, it's the repetition.

You may find repeating the same race, against the same (poor) AI, tens if not hundreds of time entertaining, but I strongly suspect you're in a minority in that regard.

As a contrast, while it may be an arcade title, Grid Legends has it in-game economy much better balanced. It's story mode is effectively a tutorial for the larger game, much as the GT Cafe is, and in that regard they are similar. However once that is done you are then presented with a curated, structured and large career mode, completion of which will give you the funds to purchase pretty much everything in the game content wise. It has a structure that is balanced to provide variety of racing with unlocking the content, and does take time to complete, it's not a short-cut to anything. It also allow you to 'borrow' cars to give them a go at a reduced race pay-out, allowing you to even try before you buy.

In contrast, once you have completed GT Cafe you are left with a scattered assortment of events, totally un-curated and un-structured, only a small amount of which will give you enough of a pay-out to earn the higher value cars. It's structure is utterly unbalanced, completing every event in the title, because they are so few and on average pay so low, will in no way get you close to completing the content collection, and forces the 'grind' of single events for hours at a time.

Ironically only one of these titles actively encourages you to collect all the cars, and it's not the one with the balanced structure!

 

[Benny44]

When a significant number of the most prolific and long-time members of the site, including the websites Founder and Admin/Editor-In-Chief are saying that GT7 has significant problems in certain areas, alongside a non-inconsequential number of regular members, than I think it's more than reasonable at a certain point to consider those complaints legitimate.

They've also played the game, and have said good things alongside things they'd like to see worked on. Constructive criticism is good, you've been 99% negative without even playing

I hope you have fun. Maybe learn not to call people with addiction problems "fools" along the way, yeah?

I mean, a lot of games have some form of microtransactions you can spend a lot of money on. If you're THAT addicted, it would be a bit foolish to play any video games. Similar to an alcoholic who goes into a grocery store that has liquor.

 

[NICKname]

The time you've spent on here you could've already had one of those cars!

Spending time here is without a doubt more fun than doing the same race over and over just to afford to buy new cars and parts. And while I like this site that's more of a testament to how insanely boring it is to earn any decent amount of money at all in this game.

Joke's on you, I have no issue, so it's not a problem for me. At all.

No, the joke's definitely on you. You're wasting your time grinding for fake currency and defending that as something that's normal (or even fun) to have to do in a video game. Even if you genuinely are having fun it would be weird if this is..

I'm off to enjoy my favorite game franchise and one of the best, if not the best, driving experiences I've had virtually

...yes, that: the best driving experience you've had virtually. The game has a lot of really good things going for it, I agree. But the Fisherman's Ranch grind is one of the worst, if not the worst, driving experiences I've had virtually. It's insanely boring and depressing.

And it's the only way to make a decent amount of money in the game. If you want anything that's even remotely expensive it's the only reasonable to afford that. So eventually the game as a whole becomes centered around that absurd, awful experience of repeating a one lap race for hours.

And it doesn't even have to be this way, obviously. There is absolutely no need for anyone to just stop being negative, put up with it and play the game anyway. It's a game. It doesn't have to be boring. It shouldn't be boring at all. People have made this game as a conscious effort. It's not a natural phenomenon that occurs without anyone having control over it. Which is why it makes sense to actually critique games and not letting the cognitive dissonance flow by arguing that it's "meant to be this way". You know, being positive all the time isn't good for a person either. Makes them say weird things.

And, ofcourse, people can complain about games they haven't played. It's just a product. People can complain about products they don't own in general. Especially when those products have little to no competitors.

 

[MroczMR]

I just hope they will increase payouts for other races. It just doesn't need to be too much, just make more choice with higher payout races.

My biggest problem is... 10 lap races which gives you the same amount of money per race as this awfull fisherman rally. I would prefer doing those to be honest.

 

[NotThePrez]

They've also played the game, and have said good things alongside things they'd like to see worked on.

Which I've noted internally, and which a large portion of the community seem to agree on. That's not going to stop me from raising concerns about some of the more negative aspects of the game, and trying to gain information on how substantial said issues are.

GT7 has a lot of good things going for it. The car customization looks astounding, the car roster looks mega, and it overall looks like a mostly enjoyable experience. Sadly, the 2 aspects I care the most about, the AI and economy, also look to be the games weakest areas.

Constructive criticism is good, you've been 99% negative without even playing

I made a whole post just now with ideas on how to adjust the economy to be more enjoyable, in response to a question you asked me, yet I haven't offered constructive criticism? Perhaps you should spend less time tunnel-visioning on the parts you want to see and stop ignoring the parts you don't want to see.

I mean, a lot of games have some form of microtransactions you can spend a lot of money on. If you're THAT addicted, it would be a bit foolish to play any video games.

Stop victim blaming. It's ultimately PD/Sony's decision to have these mechanics, so a significant portion of responsibility rests on their shoulders, and they should be held accountable for it (as should any company engaging in such practices).

Similar to an alcoholic who goes into a grocery store that has liquor.

Yes, how dare someone struggling with alcoholism have to potentially decide to go hungry if it means that they avoid alcohol.

You really don't get how empathy works, do you?

 

[wheelhp]

They've also played the game, and have said good things alongside things they'd like to see worked on. Constructive criticism is good, you've been 99% negative without even playing

Interesting jump there,how all you get from his comments is "you're 99% negative" which is not event remotely logical nor a fair assessment. Using percentages you made up to simplify the complexities of a person is a rather dumb thing to do.

 

[fearinwaves]

That is really all anyone wants.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with making certain items or content in a game harder, or, more time consuming to acquire. Despite straw men arguments to the contrary, nobody wants all these rare and prestigious cars handed to them on a plate.

The whole problem is what the developers use as the barrier to the content. There are many games where content is behind a skill barrier.

Hollow Knight as a random example. There are a handful of endgame bosses and areas I'll never experience because I'm not good enough to beat the preceding bosses. That's fine. It's optional content not part of the main game designed to test the most skillful players. I'm not, so I won't get it. Fine.

In past GT games they have also done this, certain cars could only be acquired through Golding license tests or beating the hardest championships at the end of the game. The latter were not that hard, but still, it was a skill barrier all the same, and that was fine.

GT7 is not that. The only primary barrier they've put in is time. You can easily grind the same event over and over with little skill and eventually the barrier is broken and you get the car.

Time barriers are also fine, but the crux of the whole matter is what you do in that time. Right now PD do not respect the players time, because they are not offering anywhere near enough variety and choice to pass that barrier. It's either grind the same event over and over or play naturally, doing what you want, and the barrier is increased by a lot.

We just want to see a whole variety of ways to gain credits. Let's say PD want the rate to earn 20 million credits at 8 hours, end game.

Program the game so I can earn that racing four 2 hour races in GT3 cars, 8 races that last an hour in VW Samba Buses if that is fun to someone. Maybe someone else would prefer to do a whole lot more short races, 3 laps, each with a different car and track.

It makes no difference to PD, we've still played the game for the same eight hours and "earned" the credits but damn if we've had a lot more fun than pounding round a dirt track for 8 hours.

Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty certain that is all anyone wants.

Brilliant post 👏

 

[Benny44]

Yes, how dare someone struggling with alcoholism have to potentially decide to go hungry if it means that they avoid alcohol.

Alright, let's just step outside of GT for a moment. You don't know me. You have NO idea who I am or anything about me. You are calling me unempathetic, but only showing one sentence of what I said. Maybe before you jump to conclusions about someone from a comment on the internet, you should actually know a person first. That's actually what empathy is - feeling what someone else is feeling.

I don't get upset at much, but I really don't like personal attacks. Ask anyone in my life what I'm like, even just one person, before you insinuate things. All I was saying is that if micro transactions are a big issue for someone, it might be best to stay away from games altogether, or go out of their way to avoid games with MTX. If I was an alcoholic I would do my best to avoid stores that tempted me. And at the very least stay away from that part of the store.

This is NOT a microtransaction argument, this is me talking about serious addiction. Please don't try to trivialize it to attempt to prove a point.

 

[NotThePrez]

Alright, let's just step outside of GT for a moment. You don't know me. You have NO idea who I am or anything about me. You are calling me unempathetic, but only showing one sentence of what I said. Maybe before you jump to conclusions about someone from a comment on the internet, you should actually know a person first. That's actually what empathy is - feeling what someone else is feeling.

I don't get upset at much, but I really don't like personal attacks. Ask anyone in my life what I'm like, even just one person, before you insinuate things. All I was saying is that if micro transactions are a big issue for someone, it might be best to stay away from games altogether, or go out of their way to avoid games with MTX. If I was an alcoholic I would do my best to avoid stores that tempted me. And at the very least stay away from that part of the store.

This is NOT a microtransaction argument, this is me talking about serious addiction. Please don't try to trivialize it to attempt to prove a point.

Cool, I apologize if I crossed a line. I've personally never dealt with major addiction issues myself, but I know several people that have, hence my strong reaction.

That being said, since you understand how serious an issue that can be, I still don't get why you decided to victim blame and refuse to hold PD accountable for such practices, including the economy clearly designed to encourage MTX purchases, considering that it's at least 50% their final say in if these systems are implemented?

In any case, a person staying away from games with MTXs present doesn't get rid of the problem, which is why there's been major discussion, protests, and litigation surrounding it.

 

[Scaff]

Alright, let's just step outside of GT for a moment. You don't know me. You have NO idea who I am or anything about me. You are calling me unempathetic, but only showing one sentence of what I said. Maybe before you jump to conclusions about someone from a comment on the internet, you should actually know a person first. That's actually what empathy is - feeling what someone else is feeling.

I don't get upset at much, but I really don't like personal attacks. Ask anyone in my life what I'm like, even just one person, before you insinuate things. All I was saying is that if micro transactions are a big issue for someone, it might be best to stay away from games altogether, or go out of their way to avoid games with MTX. If I was an alcoholic I would do my best to avoid stores that tempted me. And at the very least stay away from that part of the store.

This is NOT a microtransaction argument, this is me talking about serious addiction. Please don't try to trivialize it to attempt to prove a point.

I have to disagree (not in regard to if you are or are not empathetic), it is a microtransaction issue.

It goes in part to why we have microtransactions, and what role they play within a title.

Let me use your analogy with an example, alcohol addiction and restaurants. When you go to a restaurant you expect the food to be front and centre, while alcohol is likely to be available it's in a background role and the most you will be offered may well be a wine pairing option and/or asked what you would like to drink. What you don't expect and most would find unacceptable (suffering from addition or not) is for the whole experience to suddenly be centred around alcohol, every time you asked for a non-alcoholic drink to be asked 'are you sure you don't want booze instead - look at the lovely offers we have on this nice booze'. Right now it's really hard to put forward a valid argument that GT 7's economy hasn't been designed around MTX's, and that for me (even as someone who has never bought a single MTX) unacceptable. That's a conscious choice on the part of the devs/publishers to push MTX's, despite knowing full well what impact they can have, and I expect better.

It's not an MTX argument also falls over if the dev/publisher has alternatives but has chosen not to use them, they could have put a fairer economy in place, they could used the (comparatively) less obnoxious MTX from GTS, they could have used an 'unlock all' single payment DLC for a reasonable cost, the could have used DLC itself (tracks free and cars chargeable - that way you don't split the on-line user base), and given the funding first-party studios get, they could have not put this in place at all (Sony will fund PD no matter what - its a halo product and studio and could be a loss leader for all they care, it shifts hardware and that brings an uptick in attach rates).

So yes, Sony/PD making the conscious choice to not only include MTX's, but to also design an economy which drives people towards them, all the while being aware of the potential impact and having chosen not to use other approaches very much makes addiction and it's wider impacts an MTX argument in the case of GT 7.

 

[NAXEHT]

Can't agree on this. Something that's new isn't a merit on its own, just like something revamped isn't bad on it's own

If they made a change that hinders the experience than how it was before, then they clearly messed up and should be called out on it. Not get free passes because it's something different.

Day by day shops in real time just scream Microtransaction target compared to in game time you can rotate. I remember CTR had one and said they wouldn't do Microtransactions only to do it anyway after like 3 months. Get that thing you want quick before the day runs out, don't have enough, give me your real money.

With no experience in GT7 yet, heating this is how it's being handled does sound a bit scummy.

It was just a bit of a nod to some of @Samus’ critique where I used to see him repeating quite often the disappointment with no new features or changes.

Again, if I could decide there’d be no UCD or Legends Cars at all. They’d all be available at one dealership at any given time.

How dare players actually want reasonable access to the content that they paid up to $100 for! /s

So the ideal solution is to make other avenues for those players to still enjoy themselves, without taking anything away from the players who want to grind for long hours. Ideally, this should be done without trying to encourage the playerbase to buy scummy microtransactions. This is something that several of PDs competitors (primarily PG with Forza Horizon) have gotten right over the years, yet PD have not only failed in this aspect, but have taken several steps back in this area compared to previous Gran Turismo titles.

Give players a greater diversity of races with varying payouts. Give online-focused players more tools to expand their car collection. Give players who have beaten the GT Cafe endgame-focused, long-time races with higher payouts. Give players the ability to see what's coming next in the LCD (like an Auction Magazine). Give the playerbase the option to sell cars (or even individual parts) that they no longer need or want. Give players options.

Just because something is "new," doesn't mean it needs to be added. Conversely, just because something is "old," doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be changed or removed.

Imo, new mechanics should be added only if they actually add to the gameplay experience. I fail to see how a small-capacity, real-time based dealership exclusive to some of the rarest/most expensive cars in the game, with no indication of when they'll come again if they're missed, adds positive things to the gameplay experience in GT7.

PD have had several instances over the years of making questionable design decisions in spite of common sense (or their competitors) saying otherwise, while also not giving a single ounce of useful context for said decisions (GT7 being online-only, and Kaz's non-answer when questioned on it being a recent example).

It's gotten to the point where I no longer trust PD to use common sense when it comes to the decisions that are otherwise obvious choices.

You might be surprised but I fully agree on wanting a greater diversity of races with similar (or greater) payouts than Fishermans Ranch. I’m very much missing some endurance races of various hours and laps for example, like in previous iterations. Give us 24 Hours of Le Mans, 24 Hours of Daytona, 300 laps of Tsukuba, etc, etc. I really don’t get why they’re holding back on those. Where are they, Polyphony? And come up with new ones. As well as shorter ones as well of course.

See my short reply to RESHIRAM5 above, that’s all it was. I definitely don’t belong to the “change = good” camp, more often than not I’m pretty happy with no changes if one’s got a solid system.

 

[wheelhp]

I have to disagree (not in regard to if you are or are not empathetic), it is a microtransaction issue.

It goes in part to why we have microtransactions, and what role they play within a title.

Let me use your analogy with an example, alcohol addiction and restaurants. When you go to a restaurant you expect the food to be front and centre, while alcohol is likely to be available it's in a background role and the most you will be offered may well be a wine pairing option and/or asked what you would like to drink. What you don't expect and most would find unacceptable (suffering from addition or not) is for the whole experience to suddenly be centred around alcohol, every time you asked for a non-alcoholic drink to be asked 'are you sure you don't want booze instead - look at the lovely offers we have on this nice booze'. Right now it's really hard to put forward a valid argument that GT 7's economy hasn't been designed around MTX's, and that for me (even as someone who has never bought a single MTX) unacceptable. That's a conscious choice on the part of the devs/publishers to push MTX's, despite knowing full well what impact they can have, and I expect better.

It's not an MTX argument also falls over if the dev/publisher has alternatives but has chosen not to use them, they could have put a fairer economy in place, they could used the (comparatively) less obnoxious MTX from GTS, they could have used an 'unlock all' single payment DLC for a reasonable cost, the could have used DLC itself (tracks free and cars chargeable - that way you don't split the on-line user base), and given the funding first-party studios get, they could have not put this in place at all (Sony will fund PD no matter what - its a halo product and studio and could be a loss leader for all they care, it shifts hardware and that brings an uptick in attach rates).

So yes, Sony/PD making the conscious choice to not only include MTX's, but to also design an economy which drives people towards them, all the while being aware of the potential impact and having chosen not to use other approaches very much makes addiction and it's wider impacts an MTX argument in the case of GT 7.

Everyone is praying that PD patches all of this stuff soon. It's bad that microtransactions are in the game, the extended grind makes it worse.

 

[Benny44]

@NotThePrez @Scaff I think I see where you gents are coming from, and I'm looking at it from a different angle altogether. I guess when I see microtransactions I just think to myself that it would be a ridiculous thing to buy and never think about it again, so for me they are a non-factor. And I've just been ignoring them for that part of the argument. It IS valid, and as I've said before, I don't like them.

My argument is primarily the in game economy. While I by no means think it's perfect, I do like that very few people will have those expensive cars. I think what we've talked about, having a way to drive these outside of career or online would give a nice middle ground for everyone.

My favorite console racer this generation is Project Cars 2. I'd LOVE to see them do a similar career path to that, and maybe winning a car for winning that particular discipline. If they each ended with a legendary car, that would be a very cool way to get them. I really do think they already have stuff in the works, before they ever launched. And just planned a slow drip of content

 

[Silver Arrows]

It's truly amazing that people can write literal walls of texts on why the in game economy is ultimately bad, how Polyphony should be pilloried that they are deciding that basing an in-game economy around frankly untenable amounts of grinding and micro-transactions is incredibly bad and really, something that should have been noticed when it came all the way back in GT6, and yet we still have tons of disingenuous arguments and people who believe simply that they don't believe it effects them (spoiler alert: they do, you just don't know it yet) that the in game economy is fine, everyone else is simply whining about not being given everything after a week.

This place truly is becoming a cult, and I hate to see how some people's pathological need and desire to defend Polyphony comes out when Polyphony decides to push even further then they already have.

 

[Benny44]

untenable amounts of grinding

disingenuous arguments and people who believe simply that they don't believe it effects them (spoiler alert: they do, you just don't know it yet

This place truly is becoming a cult, and I hate to see how some people's pathological need and desire to defend Polyphony

These appear to be all opinions and insults. Just because YOU don't like the way something works does not allow you to tell other people that it should also bother them. You can simultaneously enjoy the game and still see ways to tweak it. That doesn't make someone belong to a cult

 

[Scaff]

This place truly is becoming a cult, and I hate to see how some people's pathological need and desire to defend Polyphony comes out when Polyphony decides to push even further then they already have.

Trust me it's quite normal, and not in any way limited to Gran Turismo either.

Some titles get it worse than others, but GT is far from alone in this, iRacing tyres were perfect, Project Cars 3 was the finest sim in the series (and oddly GT 7 doesn't exist if you look at the PC Forum, not a mention at all), Forza is perfect, and so on, and on, and on, and on....

These appear to be all opinions and insults. Just because YOU don't like the way something works does not allow you to tell other people that it should also bother them. You can simultaneously enjoy the game and still see ways to tweak it. That doesn't make someone belong to a cult

If you believe a post breaks the AUP (and this one doesn't) you will use the report button, what you will not do is attempt to moderate on behalf of the staff.

 

[wheelhp]

@NotThePrez @Scaff I think I see where you gents are coming from, and I'm looking at it from a different angle altogether. I guess when I see microtransactions I just think to myself that it would be a ridiculous thing to buy and never think about it again, so for me they are a non-factor. And I've just been ignoring them for that part of the argument. It IS valid, and as I've said before, I don't like them.

My argument is primarily the in game economy. While I by no means think it's perfect, I do like that very few people will have those expensive cars. I think what we've talked about, having a way to drive these outside of career or online would give a nice middle ground for everyone.

My favorite console racer this generation is Project Cars 2. I'd LOVE to see them do a similar career path to that, and maybe winning a car for winning that particular discipline. If they each ended with a legendary car, that would be a very cool way to get them. I really do think they already have stuff in the works, before they ever launched. And just planned a slow drip of content

To your addiction comment earlier.
The only excuse I'd give to Polyphony is if by some miracle, some altruism that they or Kaz actually don't want to give young fans the perfect GT game, simply because Kaz somehow thinks it's bad for a generation of people to be addicted to videogames.

I know a lot of people are not playing GT7 online right at this moment because it's atrocious with the lack of features and poor execution of it all compared to past entries, and the microtransactions emphasize the banality of the grind. Seems if Kaz put all thought into his game's launch, then he truly wants to drive away every last one of us hardcore GT fanatics and anyone with a penchant for arcade racers or car collecting; in some capacity. GT7 was truly supposed to be the last chance at GT returning to form, for a lot of people that were disillusioned by GT5, GT6 and/or Sport's offerings compared to GT3, GT4 and past entries. Back to GT7....

1. If you get bored of grinding you bite the bullet and spend a ton of money on microtransactions, you now have all the cars you want but get bored up on the game even faster, as the challenge and fun has been erased
2. If you refuse to pay money for it, then you are driven from the game for good when you get sick of it's grind

This is the two paths I see for many many people who play GT7 in it's current state. Not all people certainly just many.

This is the craziest thought in the world, no lie there, but I'm very bored up of all the people who pretend and insist on a socially passive narrative that the endless grinding aspect doesn't/couldn't effect their joy with the game, nor should it for anyone else. I especially detest the notion that complaining about the state of the game is worse than buying the micro-transactions or playing the game. Furthermore, complaining about something is to recognize it as an issue and then to analyze it. It is the path forward. It is an evolutionary trait to criticize. To progress. Freedom of expression and freedom of speech is a thing, you know? It's a thing for good reason. Let people complain, and let them criticize... that's all.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Some titles get it worse than others, but GT is far from alone in this, iRacing tyres were perfect, Project Cars 3 was the finest sim in the series (and oddly GT 7 doesn't exist if you look at the PC Forum, not a mention at all), Forza is perfect, and so on, and on, and on, and on....

Even those titles eventually have the cracks break open. Yet here, ever since launch and the true nature of GT7 was revealed, it seems even more noticeable that in the face of Polyphony doing obvious bad things, people are intent on dying on the sword for Polyphony, using disingenuous arguments and practically ignoring walls of text against the contrary either because it doesn't effect them directly (when it will) or because they believe other developers do it worse (when they don't)

 

[Scaff]

Even those titles eventually have the cracks break open. Yet here, ever since launch and the true nature of GT7 was revealed, it seems even more noticeable that in the face of Polyphony doing obvious bad things, people are intent on dying on the sword for Polyphony, using disingenuous arguments and practically ignoring walls of text against the contrary either because it doesn't effect them directly (when it will) or because they believe other developers do it worse (when they don't)

I can 100% assure you that for those titles as well the utter belief that they are doing no wrong persists for a long time. GT7 has been out for a little over a week, it's still well within it's honeymoon phase.

 

[Benny44]

If you believe a post breaks the AUP (and this one doesn't) you will use the report button, what you will not do is attempt to moderate on behalf of the staff.

I apologize. I felt like a lot was directed at me, and it feels like anyone who doesn't share the negativity was being called a cult and disingenuous for not agreeing. That said, I shouldn't have tried to moderate, so I'll stop.

Probably best if I just leave this thread entirely. Focusing on negatives all the time, at least for me, just brings down my day

 

[HyperSpeeder]

I was invited to buy the AM Vulcan, AM One-77 and Bugatti Veyron. I had already finished the GT Cafe and realized after going around the entire World Circuit category that the only way I was going to buy these cars before my invitations were going to expire was to grind out Fisherman's Ranch all night. And so I grinded out the 6.62 million credits and reached a total of 8.1 million credits to get them. Was it a pleasant experience to grind the same track so many times? Not really.

Would it have been better if there were more options of equivalent difficulty/duration such as actual road tracks that paid similarly? Absolutely without a doubt. I just don't get why Fisherman's Ranch 1v1 race is the only one that pays so well for the time and effort required for it. This is the only issue with the grind for me right now. I enjoy building up my collection, this is one of my favorite things to do in games featuring cars that you can store in a garage. I do the same thing in GTA Online.

But it feels defeating when you decide to go switch it up and do World GT Champions and after about an hour of doing that 5 track championship you've amassed as much as you would doing Fisherman's Ranch 1v1 for 15 mins~

I actually think the WTC 800 events are bugged. Why would you want to do a 10 lap race for only 5,000 credits?

 

[Famine]

I actually think the WTC 800 events are bugged. Why would you want to do a 10 lap race for only 5,000 credits?

They definitely are, but he's talking about the multi-race, multi-track championship which offers 75k for a race win and a 150k championship bonus.

I was considering including it in the original easy money article because it's fundamentally more interesting than anything else... but it's much less easy.

 

[wheelhp]

Might be much less easy, but I'm sure some people would be interested to try the challenge instead of grinding fisherman again

 

[HyperSpeeder]

I can 100% assure you that for those titles as well the utter belief that they are doing no wrong persists for a long time. GT7 has been out for a little over a week, it's still well within it's honeymoon phase.

Oh, but this game does tons of things wrong:

• None of the bad sounds were updated (looking at you, poor Audi R8 LMS and your GT6 sound)
• Pretty much everything brought over from Forza (roulette odds, invitations, timegating in general)
• The AI puts up a fight, which I like, but it doesn't care about punting you off the track
• The Café is too short and the text characters lack, well, character
• The off track assets, track textures and the NPC animations could be a little better
• Many cars don't have rollcages available without any valid reason
• Some of the new car additions are straight BS (993 Carrera RS and Subaru BRZ STI package for example)

However, there is a difference between enjoying the game despite its flaws, and doing what people like the guy you quoted do: you can't praise their hated game nor criticize their favorite game, or they'll stalk you until you go bananas on them and you look bad. That to me is way more toxic than the blind honeymoon praise and it has been a problem of this forum for a while now.