Why top GTA times show no finesse at all?

[Samus]

In Time Trials the main target is to put the fastest time you can in, do people honestly think that the guys at the top believe this is real?? ofcourse they dont!! they dont care all they want is to go faster, i see these stupid threads an it angers me, if you could do what them guys are doing an getting the times that they do obviously you would do it.. its trial braking at a very high level which is very technically difficult an requires tremendous skill that should be appreciated more than frowned upon.. ask yourself if i could do that an have chance racing professional ofcourse you would its so pathetic..

Again for most people I don't think the issue is that people are doing this to win. Most people know that the top guys would be the same top guys give or take no matter what the game or the physics. They are quick to adapt along with their natural skill.

The issue is that it shows a clearly large flaw still in the GT6 engine. If it was eliminated and sliding was no longer quicker the same people would be at the top, they're just that good.

 

[kendallgrubbs]

The issue is that it shows a clearly large flaw still in the GT6 engine. If it was eliminated and sliding was no longer quicker the same people would be at the top, they're just that good.

Well said, and I agree. I'm sure the top tier drifters are only doing this to maximize their lap times.

I would certainly like more realism from the game engine, but it's just a game and regardless of what PD does; it will always be best to play it like one (in terms of quickest possible lap time).

For me; the physics aren't the worrying part of GT6 at this point, it's the AI.

 

[phil_75]

Again for most people I don't think the issue is that people are doing this to win. Most people know that the top guys would be the same top guys give or take no matter what the game or the physics. They are quick to adapt along with their natural skill.

The issue is that it shows a clearly large flaw still in the GT6 engine. If it was eliminated and sliding was no longer quicker the same people would be at the top, they're just that good.

Exactly!

I have no issue at all with guys doing it, my issue is with the games physics allowing them to do it!

From the first Gran Turismo game in license tests, it was drilled into you that any sliding or breaking of traction is no good and slower.
So how is it they can go faster when sliding now?

It also looks ridiculous on replays and all sense of reality disappears.

It will make no difference to me offline as i will be driving how the game taught me and the correct way IRL.
But what worries me is what if i want to play online, is everyone going to have to adopt this technique to be competitive?

 

[Jared93]

Again for most people I don't think the issue is that people are doing this to win. Most people know that the top guys would be the same top guys give or take no matter what the game or the physics. They are quick to adapt along with their natural skill.

The issue is that it shows a clearly large flaw still in the GT6 engine. If it was eliminated and sliding was no longer quicker the same people would be at the top, they're just that good.

Most people may know, but they don't seem to acknowledge it.

But what worries me is what if i want to play online, is everyone going to have to adopt this technique to be competitive?

Well, it is racing. Deal with it?

 

[Exorcet]

Well, it is racing. Deal with it?

It's supposed to be sim racing. There is no deal with it, there is a problem.

 

[GTPMcBride]

Yeah i agree but trail braking to this limit i think will always be in games, it is a technique as we all know, am not sure sliding is slower the only part that people are sliding out of is the loop which is the fastest way.. an if you could do this in real life keeping a good forward motion it could be possible an faster.. i think trial braking in this is similar to realife where it loads the front.. an then the rear comes round.. one thing that most race cars dont have is abs that is the thing that i hate personally but thats life.. tbh the top guys arent drifting anywhere really apart from the weight shift balance that they use at the loop.. apart from that its all good.. if you watch ti tech's lap their no real mad drifting.. he doesnt even spin the tyres..

 

[African Kat]

i believe any there are lots of guys within the top 200 or so that could become the GTA champ at race camp. i've personally seen guys do alien times at national finals with the digital 370z but couldnt transfer that onto the real world one a couple of minutes later. one or two of em did though.
i think they should allow a higher number of GTA finalists (possibly top 50) to have a go in the real world car before the judges decide on who goes through to race camp

 

[phil_75]

Well, it is racing. Deal with it?

If i wanted that kind of racing i'd buy Ridge Racer!

 

[Imari]

Yeah i agree but trail braking to this limit i think will always be in games, it is a technique as we all know, am not sure sliding is slower the only part that people are sliding out of is the loop which is the fastest way.. an if you could do this in real life keeping a good forward motion it could be possible an faster.. i think trial braking in this is similar to realife where it loads the front.. an then the rear comes round.. one thing that most race cars dont have is abs that is the thing that i hate personally but thats life.. tbh the top guys arent drifting anywhere really apart from the weight shift balance that they use at the loop.. apart from that its all good.. if you watch ti tech's lap their no real mad drifting.. he doesnt even spin the tyres..

Drifting is a bad word to describe it. But the top drivers are entering the corner with relatively large slip angles, and maintaining that slip angle for quite a lot period through the middle of the corner. It doesn't work like that in real life or you'd see real race drivers doing it.

For GTA it's not a problem, it's a one off. For the final game, it's a problem if it wants to be taken seriously as a simulation.

 

[Jared93]

It's supposed to be sim racing. There is no deal with it, there is a problem.

But what worries me is what if i want to play online, is everyone going to have to adopt this technique to be competitive?

If that's what the physics call for in order to be fast, then you have no choice but to adapt if you want to continue doing so.

Don't buy GT6 then? It's that simple. If you don't like how the physics turn out, don't get competitive online because those who do will be using that technique because it's what works.

 

[dsgerbc]

For GTA it's not a problem, it's a one off. For the final game, it's a problem if it wants to be taken seriously as a simulation.

IIRC, several builds ago iRacing had a tire model that had the fast guys slide through corners. It was still taken pretty seriously.

And like I said - there is no appropriate real-world test. I don't think the tire model is bad, it's just a lot of other variables are missing that discourage sliding through corners IRL. You can't be at the very edge all the time IRL, cause the edge is moving all the time. In a sim you can be, since the edge is (probably?) the same and you can learn where is it via trial and error.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Exactly!

I have no issue at all with guys doing it, my issue is with the games physics allowing them to do it!

From the first Gran Turismo game in license tests, it was drilled into you that any sliding or breaking of traction is no good and slower.
So how is it they can go faster when sliding now?

It also looks ridiculous on replays and all sense of reality disappears.

It will make no difference to me offline as i will be driving how the game taught me and the correct way IRL.
But what worries me is what if i want to play online, is everyone going to have to adopt this technique to be competitive?

This I can agree with. Regardless of how the fast guys get their times, and I try to do the same thing just not as well as they do, it exposes flaws in the physics that should be corrected somehow.

As far as being competitive online goes, it depends on if you're talking about an open lobby or an organized league. Leagues tend to attract better quality drivers but you can still be competitive in many leagues driving the "right" way, so long as you are getting the most out of the car you can with that method. In open lobbies, the quality of driver is so low that driving with this semi-drift style really isn't necessary. I ran open lobbies quite a bit in the first couple of years and in a whole night of racing you'd be lucky to find more than a handful of drivers that were really quick and in control of their cars.

If you throw in tire wear and the races are long enough or the tire wear high enough that wear is a true issue, then it is an advantage to drive smoother and sometimes a little slower. I've entered a couple of series where tire wear was important and was successful mainly because I managed my tires better than everyone else, rather than having more speed. That drifting style is really hard on the back tires and will scrub them off quickly.

 

[Imari]

IIRC, several builds ago iRacing had a tire model that had the fast guys slide through corners. It was still taken pretty seriously.

You'll have to be more specific than that. iRacing has different tyres in different stages of development on each car. And that changes each season. If you've got a link to this somewhere, please share it.

There's always a certain amount of "sliding", driving fast is about managing slip angles. It's just that on modern cars the fastest way around a corner is with a pretty small slip angle. All the stuff I've see on iRacing has reinforced that, as has rFactor, GTR2, GPL, and netKar Pro, and my own limited track day experience. If you notice you're getting sideways, you're probably too far sideways.

 

[Exorcet]

If that's what the physics call for in order to be fast, then you have no choice but to adapt if you want to continue doing so.

Don't buy GT6 then? It's that simple. If you don't like how the physics turn out, don't get competitive online because those who do will be using that technique because it's what works.

Being fast doesn't matter. A simulator is supposed to be realistic. If it not, it's doing a poor job.

And like I said - there is no appropriate real-world test. I don't think the tire model is bad, it's just a lot of other variables are missing that discourage sliding through corners IRL. You can't be at the very edge all the time IRL, cause the edge is moving all the time. In a sim you can be, since the edge is (probably?) the same and you can learn where is it via trial and error.

In reality, the track isn't going to suddenly transform from one lap to the next, the edge in one session of laps is as good as fixed. The same trial and error method for the sim will apply to real life. All the sim needs to discourage sliding is proper tire behavior that makes sliding detrimental to lap times. That's the reason why it doesn't work in real life.

 

[GTPMcBride]

Their was quite a bit of movement slip angle in the good oul days of F1 70's 80's early 90's an it was fast..

Imari i understand what you say, i think some people dont see it as slip angles even if they are some what bigger than real life, i dislike the term drifting, the only corner thats wrong is the loop.. an i also know that a 2min 17 is possible with a normal wide entry at village to get a normal wide apex line at the loop.. also to the physics i had forgot to turn off TC at 7 lol but i got 2min 18.6 so its possible to drive normal no wheel slip an set an ok time.. i also like how u cant just put your foot flat down on the brake with abs1 as it it will push you forward thats why i use abs0 so you actually have to thresshold brake an into corner you can trail it.. putting your foot flat down on brake in this creqtes quite alot of load on the front creqting no balance 50/50, with trial braking its like 70/30 an as you let go an apply throttle the back end will come nicely back in line

 

[Jared93]

Being fast doesn't matter. A simulator is supposed to be realistic. If it not, it's doing a poor job.

That's besides the point. Phil was referring to what it's going to take to be fast online, and I explained that the style people are going to use is that of sliding around corners consistently because that's what it is going to take to be fast in GT6.

Again, if you can't get over the fact that PD designed the game to be played that way then don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you.

Personally, I like GT5's physics quite a bit more(as arcade-like as they may be). If the demo is any signification of the final product, I won't be spending much time on it.

 

[Samus]

The phrase "don't like it don't buy it" should be barred in a discussion forum. There wouldn't be any discussion if that was a legitimate response whenever someone posted negatively.

 

[Exorcet]

That's besides the point.

It's not. The reason he even asked in the first place it seems, is because he's concerned that online racing would reward unrealistic driving, which would defeat the entire point of the game. It might as well be NFS at that point.

Again, if you can't get over the fact that PD designed the game to be played that way then don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you.

As long as GT claims to be a sim it's not a matter of design choice. This is a flaw that needs to be fixed. If GT is turned into an arcade game, then it's a design choice.

Personally, I like GT5's physics quite a bit more(as arcade-like as they may be). If the demo is any signification of the final product, I won't be spending much time on it.

GT6 has been a no buy from me since it was announced as a PS3 game, that doesn't make the issues with it any less real, and it bodes poorly for future titles.

 

[Jared93]

It's not. The reason he even asked in the first place it seems, is because he's concerned that online racing would reward unrealistic driving, which would defeat the entire point of the game. It might as well be NFS at that point.

As long as GT claims to be a sim it's not a matter of design choice. This is a flaw that needs to be fixed. If GT is turned into an arcade game, then it's a design choice.

GT6 has been a no buy from me since it was announced as a PS3 game, that doesn't make the issues with it any less real, and it bodes poorly for future titles.

He may have explained that earlier but that's not what I responded to.... Hence it being besides the point.

I get it, you're not happy with the physics and you think it's more of an arcade game than a simulator... just like me and quite a few others participating in this thread do.

You're just pointing out the obvious now.

 

[GTPMcBride]

What i didnt like was the title (not showing enough finesse) it takes a very highly level to master it, if seemed like he was having a go at these top guys, an its not right.. As i have mentioned before that the top guys do not believe this to be any more real, so for the guy to make a thread claiming these guys at top showing no finesse when in actual fact what they are doin is very hard is wrong.

 

[dsgerbc]

In reality, the track isn't going to suddenly transform from one lap to the next, the edge in one session of laps is as good as fixed. The same trial and error method for the sim will apply to real life. All the sim needs to discourage sliding is proper tire behavior that makes sliding detrimental to lap times. That's the reason why it doesn't work in real life.

Transform - no, change slightly - sure. And you can't use 'trial and error' sim method in real life. Too costly.
I agree, though, there needs to be a wear penalty for the amount of slip that goes on in the contact patch with this kind of driving.

 

[phil_75]

What i didnt like was the title (not showing enough finesse) it takes a very highly level to master it, if seemed like he was having a go at these top guys, an its not right.. As i have mentioned before that the top guys do not believe this to be any more real, so for the guy to make a thread claiming these guys at top showing no finesse when in actual fact what they are doin is very hard is wrong.

You are missing the whole point

It is irrelevant if it takes very high skill to master, why should we have to master an unrealistic way of driving, we have "mastered" the "correct way" according to reality and the whole point, GRAN TURISMO!!!

Go play the licence tests in any Gran Turismo game, what will it teach you?
Answer me these, according to Gran Turismo:
Is it better to use smooth inputs or jerky, aggressive inputs?
Is the breaking of traction good or bad?
Is sliding/breaking traction the fastest and best way around corners?

As for whoever mentioned "iRacing had a similar style several builds ago" the clue is in the same sentence!
"several builds ago" ie before they realised how unrealistic it is and changed it:idea:

Do the people sticking up for this way of driving actually care about GT and have any idea what it is all about?
How can you be happy with this when it is fundamentally wrong?

I want GT series to get everything right or as close as, i want GT to succeed and be the best driver/racer available.
99% of us on this site play it and love it because it is a simulator and yes, you guessed, it simulates real life!

Thats why we aren't on the Ridge Racer or NFS boards, because we want a true to life experience.

Anyone happy with this sliding/extreme slip angle technique either has no clue about driving/racing IRL or they do not care if GT disappears down the toilet and becomes a laughing stock.

"THE REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR"?

 

[TetreRouge]

Let's be honest here, there's only two people in history who could ever be faster than everyone and still be sideways in every corner : Jim Clark and Colin McRae.

 

[luizsaluti]

What i didnt like was the title (not showing enough finesse) it takes a very highly level to master it, if seemed like he was having a go at these top guys, an its not right.. As i have mentioned before that the top guys do not believe this to be any more real, so for the guy to make a thread claiming these guys at top showing no finesse when in actual fact what they are doin is very hard is wrong.

You are right, it takes skill, effort, and sweat to achieve those top TT results. I agree.

As a matter of fact, the topic title is not aimed at the drivers, but at the times allowed by the simulation model. It lacks the finesse, smoothness of all the driving tutorials, lessons and real races we watch.

Most of us make such claim based on what we watch on TV. I have never seen someone being faster driving like that (TT top players).

I am not trying to take away the honor and glory of top drivers. I am not attacking them. I just want GT6 to be as real as it possibly can be.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You are missing the whole point

It is irrelevant if it takes very high skill to master, why should we have to master an unrealistic way of driving, we have "mastered" the "correct way" according to reality and the whole point, GRAN TURISMO!!!

Go play the licence tests in any Gran Turismo game, what will it teach you?
Answer me these, according to Gran Turismo:
Is it better to use smooth inputs or jerky, aggressive inputs?
Is the breaking of traction good or bad?
Is sliding/breaking traction the fastest and best way around corners?

As for whoever mentioned "iRacing had a similar style several builds ago" the clue is in the same sentence!
"several builds ago" ie before they realised how unrealistic it is and changed it:idea:

Do the people sticking up for this way of driving actually care about GT and have any idea what it is all about?
How can you be happy with this when it is fundamentally wrong?

I want GT series to get everything right or as close as, i want GT to succeed and be the best driver/racer available.
99% of us on this site play it and love it because it is a simulator and yes, you guessed, it simulates real life!

Thats why we aren't on the Ridge Racer or NFS boards, because we want a true to life experience.

Anyone happy with this sliding/extreme slip angle technique either has no clue about driving/racing IRL or they do not care if GT disappears down the toilet and becomes a laughing stock.

"THE REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR"?

You're absolutely right Phil about GT physics. It is unrealistic and other, dare I say, "real sims", do a much better job at that aspect of the game. The problem is I think, the term "driving simulator". PD puts those words on the cover and that's the standard many of us hardcore guys hold PD to, and yet they've never really come close to reaching it.

You can't seriously call yourself a simulator when most of your cars sound not only inaccurate, but without anywhere near the range of sounds effects that accompany real race cars.
You can't seriously call yourself a simulator when the fastest way to get your cars around the track is not with grip, but my breaking traction entering corners.
You can't seriously call yourself a simulator when most of your tracks are as smooth as silk, the complete opposite of many real world race tracks.

I could go on but you get the point. GT is what it is, a "game" for the masses. It looks pretty, it has lots of cars to drive, some cool tracks and a huge advertising and marketing budget. But it's not really a sim game, not if we use the textbook definition of a sim, at least not in my mind. Holding it up to that standard will never happen. It would be just too difficult for the average player.

 

[mistersafeway]

I'm a little confused after reading all this and seeing people's reasoning for the handling being inaccurate. It's a road car, on road tyres, on a single lap. Any fan of Top Gear will have seen various iterations of The Stig (berate that all you want, but both confirmed Stigs have raced at many levels) do exactly what the top people are doing, getting a bit of a slide on through a tight, low speed corner, even on semi slicks sometimes.

The only problem I've seen so far (that I can definitely identify) is tyres gaining and losing heat way too quickly. As long as cars with a decent level of downforce and/or racing tyres don't go faster while sliding, there isn't a massive issue (apart from tyre temperature, we really do need that fixed ). Unless somebody performed a test while the GT3 TT was briefly unlockable, maybe it'd be better to calm down?

Now, back to insane bickering... anybody got some popcorn?

 

[GTPMcBride]

Am not missing the point, my point was to the title showing no finesse, but your man has explained that he means nothing in terms of downgrading these top guys..

Phil its a game, it wont never be true to life simulation.. it never has an sadly will never be unfortunately.. about the license tests i guess their like road licenses they wont teach you trial braking thresshold braking..

 

[ShiftingGears]

Let's be honest here, there's only two people in history who could ever be faster than everyone and still be sideways in every corner : Jim Clark and Colin McRae.

Jim Clark was noted to be the smoothest driver of his contemporaries. Read: minimised how much the car went sideways.

 

[GTPMcBride]

Let's be honest here, there's only two people in history who could ever be faster than everyone and still be sideways in every corner : Jim Clark and Colin McRae.

Colin McRae was a Rally Driver this does not need said, For me the greatest drivers where Ayrton,R.Arnoux an Villneuve, these guys had that something else that the other drivers would just look at an say how..

 

[jules283]

Maybe the car physics being unrealistic will be a characteristic of sports hard or hard tyres only?