Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Techtrip]

So am i to understand that the civic picture was purposly enlarged to maybe exagerate the extent of the dodgy pixels? sorry for the spelling.

You know I have not thought about that, but if the original picture gets resized it will show more jaggies. The GT4 pic I posted was unaltered. I don't know how big the pictures are orignally in photo mode for GT5

 

[Spagetti69]

So how is it possible they have taken 6 years to go backwards in quality?

I think they set the bar too high in some areas, neglected others and seem a bit in the middle in others.

The game seems to have an identity crisis. Right from the opening intro(I won't spoil anything).

Anyway just my thoughts on what I've seen around the net. I'll reserve judgement till it's on my tv.

 

[Tornado]

I'm having trouble grasping how some of these cars are looking worse than they did in GT4. I mean, I know the technical reason, but that's not what I mean.

 

[khronikos]

I hate to say this but I have indeed cancelled my preorder. I don't have a lot of money and that definitely plays into my decision. For one, no racing game has really been up to my expectations. I realized there was going to be jaggies here so I didn't expect miracles. Between there only being 10 Ferraris and hardly any vintage American or Italian cars I have no reason to pay full price for this. The car list was one GIGANTIC disappointment for me. Is this the best racer out there? Yeah, by quite some margin but it is obvious neither PD or The PS3 are up to the challenge of making everyone happy. I was honestly expecting 30 Ferraris and 50 or so Vintage American cars. I didn't even get half that and there Ferrari selection is absolutely [removed] terrible with capital letters. I have no clue what they were thinking except maybe DLC. They might have 2 cars in the normal top 10 Ferrari lists. Not cool when that was a huge factor for a lot of people looking into this game for the sport of driving their supercar fantasies. I just cannot wrap my head around why this game took so long with such a huge team. It really had to be the engine but how does Naughty Dog get their game and engine out within 2 years. IMHO these japanese devs have had a hard time with the PS3 and are just coming to grips with the fact it cannot properly do 60FPS.

The other reason is obviously these terrible Standard cars and that is what they are. I honestly have NO CLUE why these cars are even in this game. They are hideous. [removed]. I realize the Premiums are all great but I don't even care for half of them. I wanted some great cars and what I got was not quite what I expected though in fairness this game is absolutely huge and will go down on my 30 dollar list as most do. I was lead to believe that these Standards would be 3/4 premium. There are quite honestly an abomination. This is my opinion. Many people will and should enjoy this release for its many many great things. I cannot at the current price.

 

[LaBounti]

I'm having trouble grasping how some of these cars are looking worse than they did in GT4. I mean, I know the technical reason, but that's not what I mean.

The Civics are pixel perfect identical after long looks, the rear B pillar has the same pixels to make the shape. The wheel arches have the same pixeliation.

Gt5 is higher res and brighter and less "muddy" or washed out. The brighter, higher contrast and HD makes the GT5 version more clear revealing its imperfection more. The mirrors have the same geometry.

Bottom line imo is they just weren't meant to be seen up close.

 

[Devedander]

I'm not a moderator here, so I might be overstepping my bounds, but... I can't think of any instance where you actually need to refer to any group like that while discussing content of the game. Whether someone is a fanboy, troll, whiner, etc., shouldn't matter about the information being posted. If it's something that is obviously trying to bait someone, insult, harass, etc., then report the post and let the staff deal with it. Calling people out, and addressing it while in the thread only serves the purpose of such a post; that is to derail and throw a perfectly legitimate discussion off track.

So, just report posts that you feel are inappropriate, don't reply to them, and certainly don't drag yourself down to the level of name calling, ect.

OK, let's say:

"I don't believe those ugly photos, I have heard lots of people say that all cars have cockpits, eveything looks better than GT5P and even the worst cars are 10x better than that other game! I saw one guy say it 50 times in an hour! 3 people all have the game and say EVERYTHYING is the absolute BEST looking ever including better than any CGI and Avatar looks horrible in comparison. What could possibly explain that? Clearly these ugly photos are fake!"

What term would you use when explaining why what this person is encountering is not representative of the real situation? This is a case where a legitimate word for a group of people that act in a known way is necessary to convey a point properly. If there is a slang term with negative conotation, ok, what's the non negative conotation one? If we just pretend said group of people does not exist, we cannot have an educational conversation.

I think they set the bar too high in some areas, neglected others and seem a bit in the middle in others.

The game seems to have an identity crisis. Right from the opening intro(I won't spoil anything).

Anyway just my thoughts on what I've seen around the net. I'll reserve judgement till it's on my tv.

Kid in a candy store with small pockets was an analogy brought up a while ago...

 

[eSZee]

Actually, there's very little about GT5 that seems to be important.

Cockpit view? For crappy racers.
Damage? For crash kids.
Graphics? For graphic whores.
Customisation? For ricers.

You get the idea

Sarcasm, right?

 

[CeeJay]

Noticed in the Civic picture from GT5 they even left the blocky seat inside the car. I remember seeing those in the GT4 replays. Aww man! Hee hee, this game is like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde! Some pictures are beautiful and others.. well, not so much. That is the ONE thing I do wish PD had done, just cleaned up those textures. It looks like someone used a magic marker to draw the doors on. I'm almost sure just a better texture could have straightened up some of the more obvious flaws w/ the Standards.

 

[CarreraGT]

I'm curios to know how they went about updating the physics model for the standard cars from previous iterations of GT.

Basically the (physics) model for each car in the game is developed from a number of input parameters obtained from the actual car, so I wonder whether:

a) They increased the number and depth of parameters from GT4 to GT5 to make the handling of each car more accurate, or
b) they have udpated the way in which the engine processes input parameters to make it more realistic overall

If it were the former, it would mean that PD would have had to either re-use standard car data collected for GT4 or gather new (extra) data to fit with the new engine.

Since it seems that a lot less time was spend on the standard models, they may have simply used the existing data, meaning we may see a difference in the physics model between standard and premium models. If they updated the entire engine and not the input parameters, however, it should be consistent.

Sorry if this post is a bit confusing, its just something I've been thinking about and was wondering if anyone else had the same thought

 

[Devedander]

Sarcasm, right?

He was making a point with some sarcasm yes... basically GT was much hyped by many people as best in all classes... now that we have the actual product, the areas in which GT is not performing up to expectations are often stated to be simply "not important" and hyperbole is used to rationlize why they are not important.

 

[Techtrip]

The Civics are pixel perfect identical after long looks, the rear B pillar has the same pixels to make the shape. The wheel arches have the same pixeliation.

Gt5 is higher res and brighter and less "muddy" or washed out. The brighter, higher contrast and HD makes the GT5 version more clear revealing its imperfection more. The mirrors have the same geometry.

Bottom line imo is they just weren't meant to be seen up close.

To be fair the GT4 car in game does not look as good as the picture. When you take a photo in GT4 the photo program that the game uses appears to hide as much as it can, so even though the GT4 pic does show some jaggies they are worse in the actual game. I did notice that when I was taking the pic in game.

 

[Freeman_Cruz]

Civic TypeR standard.

 

[F34R]

OK, let's say:

"I don't believe those ugly photos, I have heard lots of people say that all cars have cockpits, eveything looks better than GT5P and even the worst cars are 10x better than that other game! I saw one guy say it 50 times in an hour! 3 people all have the game and say EVERYTHYING is the absolute BEST looking ever including better than any CGI and Avatar looks horrible in comparison. What could possibly explain that? Clearly these ugly photos are fake!"

What term would you use when explaining why what this person is encountering is not representative of the real situation? This is a case where a legitimate word for a group of people that act in a known way is necessary to convey a point properly. If there is a slang term with negative conotation, ok, what's the non negative conotation one? If we just pretend said group of people does not exist, we cannot have an educational conversation.



Kid in a candy store with small pockets was an analogy brought up a while ago...

Why do you need a term? Respond with appropriate information and explain it in an educated and rational manner. Link that person to official information, other posts, etc., that will give that person the proper information. There isn't ANY need to label that person, or put them into any groups, etc. If they still don't get it, and continue to post irrationally after being given the correct and supported information, just report their posts.

It doesn't matter whether a group of people exist or not, their "name" isn't relevant to the information being discussed. I feel the opposite of what you're saying. I don't think you can have any rational discussion of any information if you are hung up on wanting to use derogatory terms to describe someone, instead of concentrating on the information that should be discussed.

I think the staff member was pretty clear, regardless of whether you think names should be designated for certain people, groups, etc. So, please PM, or that staff member, as the discussion is going off topic the more we talk about this topic.

 

[Devedander]

I'm curios to know how they went about updating the physics model for the standard cars from previous iterations of GT.

Basically the (physics) model for each car in the game is developed from a number of input parameters obtained from the actual car, so I wonder whether:

a) They increased the number and depth of parameters from GT4 to GT5 to make the handling of each car more accurate, or
b) they have udpated the way in which the engine processes input parameters to make it more realistic overall

If it were the former, it would mean that PD would have had to either re-use standard car data collected for GT4 or gather new (extra) data to fit with the new engine.

Since it seems that a lot less time was spend on the standard models, they may have simply used the existing data, meaning we may see a difference in the physics model between standard and premium models. If they updated the entire engine and not the input parameters, however, it should be consistent.

Sorry if this post is a bit confusing, its just something I've been thinking about and was wondering if anyone else had the same thought

This is actually a pretty good question and I brought this up before

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4052631#post4052631

It's a long read but I tried to explain it, unfortunately it seemed to go over a lot of heads so it never went far... suffice it to say, until someone decompiles the game or strips out the data files for the cars, it will be pretty hard to tell unless there are some truly telltale issues.

 

[okami11408]

standard cars = ruin the game

 

[Devedander]

Why do you need a term? Respond with appropriate information and explain it in an educated and rational manner. Link that person to official information, other posts, etc., that will give that person the proper information. There isn't ANY need to label that person, or put them into any groups, etc. If they still don't get it, and continue to post irrationally after being given the correct and supported information, just report their posts.

It doesn't matter whether a group of people exist or not, their "name" isn't relevant to the information being discussed. I feel the opposite of what you're saying. I don't think you can have any rational discussion of any information if you are hung up on wanting to use derogatory terms to describe someone, instead of concentrating on the information that should be discussed.

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree then...

I feel it is very important to attribute an action to a group if that group is known for such an action.

I will mention no one seemed to have a problem with the "emo" thread...

To simply say "each person you heard say that is lying" with no further explanation carries little weight or meaning. Similar to saying "the 6 darksinned people were more likely to have heart disease" wihtout specifying that there is a group trait responsible and not just some obvservation that I am trying to fob off.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I never got the time to finish GT4 100%, therefore hopefully this time around GT5 is giving me another shot at it... GT5 is basically a re-release updated version of GT4.

"Smells like an undercooked microwave meal !"

 

[khronikos]

As I said before this is still the most complete racer but its flaws are hideous and that cannot be denied. I expect people have already been very disappointed by the car list. Hint Americans and Italians mainly because of the very important heritage associated with both. I just cannot fathom why NASCAR was on their priority list and Karts were as well when we obviously needed more cars and more Premiums and more time spent on Shadows for christ. Seriously, what the heck was going on over there. GT6 honest to god better be for the PS4.

 

[eSZee]

The problem is those terms are used to direct a negative connotation towards that particular group of people, whether you specify it or not. Using those terms doesn't bring anything of relevance to an actual topic and only serves to derail a thread into arguments about intentions, or motives, for someones criticisms or praises.

Just discuss the information, there isn't any need, or benefit, for bringing those terms into a post.

So instead of fanboys are we supposed to say "die-hards" or what? No matter what words you use, someone will find it offensive.

 

[F34R]

So instead of fanboys are we supposed to say "die-hards" or what? No matter what words you use, someone will find it offensive.

Why call them anything? Why not either respond to the post, ignore it, or report it? All three of those options can be done without any name calling. Easy. Please PM me to further discuss it... I was just trying to clarify why those things are frowned upon, which is probably why the moderator had to step in and post what he did. Just PM me for further discussion on that so the thread can continue on topic without our interruption.

 

[LaBounti]

I hate to say this but I have indeed cancelled my preorder. I don't have a lot of money and that definitely plays into my decision. For one, no racing game has really been up to my expectations. I realized there was going to be jaggies here so I didn't expect miracles. Between there only being 10 Ferraris and hardly any vintage American or Italian cars I have no reason to pay full price for this. The car list was one GIGANTIC disappointment for me. Is this the best racer out there? Yeah, by quite some margin but it is obvious neither PD or The PS3 are up to the challenge of making everyone happy. I was honestly expecting 30 Ferraris and 50 or so Vintage American cars. I didn't even get half that and there Ferrari selection is absolutely Mother F'in terrible with capital letters. I have no clue what they were thinking except maybe DLC. They might have 2 cars in the normal top 10 Ferrari lists. Not cool when that was a huge factor for a lot of people looking into this game for the sport of driving their supercar fantasies. I just cannot wrap my head around why this game took so long with such a huge team. It really had to be the engine but how does Naughty Dog get their game and engine out within 2 years. IMHO these japanese devs have had a hard time with the PS3 and are just coming to grips with the fact it cannot properly do 60FPS.

The other reason is obviously these terrible Standard cars and that is what they are. I honestly have NO CLUE why these cars are even in this game. They are hideous. Sometimes I think PD is doing coke and cooking hookers over there and that is why they are sleeping at their desks lol. I realize the Premiums are all great but I don't even care for half of them. I wanted some great cars and what I got was not quite what I expected though in fairness this game is absolutely huge and will go down on my 30 dollar list as most do. I was lead to believe that these Standards would be 3/4 premium. There are quite honestly an abomination. This is my opinion. Many people will and should enjoy this release for its many many great things. I cannot at the current price.

Why even join the forum?

 

[Darkpitiless]

The premium BMW M5 is a mess. The interior is 60% accurate. The back seats doesn't even look like the real thing. and they are very jaggy. And reverse lights are messed up. You can see their reflection near any wall but you can't see them on the back of the car. With that all said. I couldnt care less about it. Well i did before i got the game. But now i don't care about the premiums and standards thing. 2 days ago i was one of the biggest whiners on GTplanet. Today im one of the happiest GT fans in GTplanet. The game is alot more than premiums and standards. By the time you guys put you're hands on the game. You will be just blown away. Specialy whiners... Well like me lol. But now im not a whiner, im a supporter. The game is just drugs addicting. Even the stupid samba bus which i whined about it being a premium. Driving it on the top gear test track was a huge blast. Never drove a bus, but it did feel like driving a bus. Karts are unbelievebly fun to drive too. Im using G25 and the feeling it provides is just outstanding. Just don't worry about standards and premiums. Worry about getting a wheel if you don't have one.

 

[khronikos]

Just putting in my opinion as everybody else. I love the site and follow the forums. That's why guy.

 

[CarreraGT]

This is actually a pretty good question and I brought this up before

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4052631#post4052631

It's a long read but I tried to explain it, unfortunately it seemed to go over a lot of heads so it never went far... suffice it to say, until someone decompiles the game or strips out the data files for the cars, it will be pretty hard to tell unless there are some truly telltale issues.

Yeah I was thinking that. I guess the only way to tell will be to compare lap times between standard/premium/real life but then you're just plitting hairs I guess. As an engineer this interests me but I guess it doesn't make much difference either way.

Perhaps as the series progresses to GT6 and beyond it may become more of an issue if they have to keep updating old models. Surely it will get to a point where they have to clean sheet the whole things just to keep some consistency.

If PD put in enough work between now and GT6 (which I'm sure they will), they should scrap standard models all together and just update some of the old cars to premium standard and keep developing new cars. After all, there are only so many older cars which are worthy of collector status. As for the rest, the game moves on

 

[LaBounti]

@Darkpitiless Lead by example! khronikos needs your motivation.

 

[Devedander]

The premium BMW M5 is a mess. The interior is 60% accurate. The back seats doesn't even look like the real thing. and they are very jaggy. And reverse lights are messed up. You can see their reflection near any wall but you can't see them on the back of the car. With that all said. I couldnt care less about it. Well i did before i got the game. But now i don't care about the premiums and standards thing. 2 days ago i was one of the biggest whiners on GTplanet. Today im one of the happiest GT fans in GTplanet. The game is alot more than premiums and standards. By the time you guys put you're hands on the game. You will be just blown away. Specialy whiners... Well like me lol. But now im not a whiner, im a supporter. The game is just drugs addicting. Even the stupid samba bus which i whined about it being a premium. Driving it on the top gear test track was a huge blast. Never drove a bus, but it did feel like driving a bus. Karts are unbelievebly fun to drive too. Im using G25 and the feeling it provides is just outstanding. Just don't worry about standards and premiums. Worry about getting a wheel if you don't have one.

Might wanna watch out with all the "whiner" talk...

 

[Darkpitiless]

@Darkpitiless Lead by example! khronikos needs your motivation.

Naah Don't worry about him. He will be just fine by the time he pops the disc in his PS3 . You guys just don't understand. Hope you all get you're copies very soon.

 

[Techtrip]

Just for the record I am stoked about getting the game, and if I gave anyone the impression I was not I apoligize. I think the game will be great, and I was just enjoying some good discussion on standard vs premium cars. I would have been just as happy if PD had just updated GT4 with HD graphics. This has been an interesting discussion with some good contructive feedback. I don't play online very much, but when I do get the game and get online I look forward to racing with some of the GT fans on this forum.

 

[khronikos]

Sadly, the standard premium thing doesn't bother me much. The car selection has made my decision and really it doesn't matter much I will get the game just not for 50 or 60. I have a lot of studying to do anyway. Whew! Anyway, here is a list of some of the Ferrari's that I thought were going to be in this game: http://www.motortrend.com/classic/c12_0509_top_ferraris/index.html

A few of them are but really only the modern ones. I am sorry I am not trying to offend anyone but I am huge on these vintage cars. These Ferrari's are some of the greatest cars ever made and to see almost none of them in this game almost breaks my heart. I would not be surprised to see DLC but then again that just adds to the price. GT5 might be one of the only games that is worth 50 or 60 but that price will definitely not stay there.

 

[Tornado]

I'm curios to know how they went about updating the physics model for the standard cars from previous iterations of GT.

Basically the (physics) model for each car in the game is developed from a number of input parameters obtained from the actual car, so I wonder whether:

a) They increased the number and depth of parameters from GT4 to GT5 to make the handling of each car more accurate, or
b) they have udpated the way in which the engine processes input parameters to make it more realistic overall

If it were the former, it would mean that PD would have had to either re-use standard car data collected for GT4 or gather new (extra) data to fit with the new engine.

Since it seems that a lot less time was spend on the standard models, they may have simply used the existing data, meaning we may see a difference in the physics model between standard and premium models. If they updated the entire engine and not the input parameters, however, it should be consistent.

Sorry if this post is a bit confusing, its just something I've been thinking about and was wondering if anyone else had the same thought

I'll just put this here, but back in 2006 or 2007 when GT4 was fresh on everyone's mind, there were a few theories regarding some of the idiosyncrasies with the physics engine. For example, why the typical response to any steering or throttle input was "understeer." One of the more popular ones was that GT4 had a physics engine that was originally more advanced and modeled more things but it had to be cut back to work on the PS2, and it was attempting to model parameters for the cars that weren't fully implemented in the game.

If that was actually true, it could mean that the GT4 cars were actually developed taking into account more things than I don't exactly remember the specifics as I was simply a witness to the debates, but one person I'm pretty sure was quite active in those discussions was Scaff. I know that he did some pretty extensive testing about GT4s physics engine, so he would be the person to ask about that sort of thing.