Forza 3: Leaving A Delayed GT 5 In The Pits

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TECHNIKRS4
Gt5 IS behind FM3 IMO
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As far as developement time between releases they sure are.

Also I have to admit, after 4 1/2 years you would certainly think at this stage there wouldn't be any question about tire smoke, squeal and skidmarks.

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Kaz and PD are falling victim to that inevitable destructive influence of the Big Corp. (Sony) holding sway over inner company developement decisions. Demanding all these other multiple game projects while back-burnering the "bread and butter".

Historically that type of outcome has been the rule, not the exception. If there is a way to screw it up they can generally find it.
 
SuperCobraJet
I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Kaz and PD are falling victim to that inevitable destructive influence of the Big Corp. (Sony) holding sway over inner company developement decisions.
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I don't think Sony has to force Kaz and PD to make can-of-whoop-ass trailers for the 458 and SLS.

As someone pointed out, the crew of PD consists of roughly 120 people, whereas T10 is employing 300+, if PD had serious Big Corp Backing wouldn't they provide for an extra 100 crew?

Alot of people had a rash over hearing about the release date, but only time will tell, trailers and screens and interviews tell alot too.:)
 
chepe371
...As someone pointed out, the crew of PD consists of roughly 120 people, whereas T10 is employing 300+, if PD had serious Big Corp Backing wouldn't they provide for an extra 100 crew?...
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OK, Sony is a huge corporation, it may not be as big as MS, but nothing else is... If Sony failed to to allow PD to double their staff then it was a big oversight. But before you start assuming so much have you actually asked yourself: What if PD is keeping the staff numbers down to maximize profits? Either assumption could be just as accurate. Why always making excuses for PD?:dopey:
 
chepe371
As someone pointed out, the crew of PD consists of roughly 120 people, whereas T10 is employing 300+, if PD had serious Big Corp Backing wouldn't they provide for an extra 100 crew?
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Depends on whether more would have made it better... if you like your team and think they are top notch, you might be worried adding staff would pollute your skill base.
 
chepe371
I don't think Sony has to force Kaz and PD to make can-of-whoop-ass trailers for the 458 and SLS.

As someone pointed out, the crew of PD consists of roughly 120 people, whereas T10 is employing 300+, if PD had serious Big Corp Backing wouldn't they provide for an extra 100 crew?

Alot of people had a rash over hearing about the release date, but only time will tell, trailers and screens and interviews tell alot too.:)
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Exactly my point.

They should have 300 people working on GT5, (we'd be playing already if they did) instead of 120 working on TT, GTPSP, etc.,etc.

All there getting is the directives on what Sony says is "the priority" and no backup to make it happen in a acceptable time frame.


Cobra_NZ
OK, Sony is a huge corporation, it may not be as big as MS, but nothing else is... If Sony failed to to allow PD to double their staff then it was a big oversight. But before you start assuming so much have you actually asked yourself: What if PD is keeping the staff numbers down to maximize profits? Either assumption could be just as accurate. Why always making excuses for PD?:dopey:
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If thats the case, its much more likely to be a Sony directive than from PD.

Thats standard MO for Big Corps. and I might add particularly when your bleeding negative cash flow to the tune of a Billion a year.
 
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There's so much more PD could be doing wiht extra staff. The thing is, they don't necessarily have to do with development.

Consider Che Chou at T10, to put one example. He's not directly tied to the development, but he does something important still: bridging the gap between the consumers and the company. True, it doesn't make the graphics or the gameplay better, but so far T10 has a tighter relationship with Forza fans, which helps when you're brainstorming what features to add to the next game; I don't think we have an equivalent at PD. Not necessarily that they need one per se; but that's just an example of a position that could be filled, which is not directly related to making the actual game.
 
Cobra_NZ
Oh please! I can admire the car in dealership, drive with with the top down, great! But,the sense of speed is really lacking. Damage is not up to much and if it will be different from stock to race cars it will be a mockery, we'll have to wait and see on this one. How about a livery editor? Where is the racer individuality? Do we actually know if the online mode will be any good? We don't even know how good the network code is. Remember, if one runs a private room, one needs to support up to 16 other players on their connection... We've not seen rollover yet, judging by what we've seen of damage though... Let's move on to tyre marks, 5th generation game on 3 consoles and still tyres don't leave marks on the road, ouch! Sounds? GT5's AI is still as useless as ever. Where are racing modes like drag racing and drifting. Where are hardcore tuner features like engine and drivetrain swaps. And not just one tyre for every compound, why not 5 or more different licenced tyre brands? Endorsed aero upgrades, no? Point to point racing? I could go on...

If you're going to mention FM3's shortcomings, try being honest about GT5's flaws too, if you can. And while you're on the subject of PD getting an earful, have you actually seen the backlash of the car model LOD issue on the official FM forums and may others? It's huge! Che was honest and apologised if the fans felt missinformed and explained everything not once but on many different forums.
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You seem to know the short comings of GT very well... may I ask what you think the short comings of FM are?
 
Blitz187
You seem to know the short comings of GT very well... may I ask what you think the short comings of FM are?
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Of course, here are some of the flaws I find in FM3 (deep breath): big difference between the menu and photomode car models and the actual in-game car models which are just slightly higher LOD than FM2, not all dials in the car interiors work, a lot of car models have errors in them, some track foliage is 2D and textured poorly, pit crew still not visible during pit stops, only 8 cars on track, missing gear shifting animations, no backfire sound or flame animation, no moving aero parts on cars like Bugatti Veyron, and many more.

Even if all the above were sorted, FM3 would still look pale in comparison to GT5 due to the superior car models, superior quality cockpits and superior lighting PD have mastered. Also the presentation in GT5 will be second to none.
 
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Cobra_NZ
Oh please! I can admire the car in dealership, drive with with the top down, great! But,the sense of speed is really lacking. Damage is not up to much and if it will be different from stock to race cars it will be a mockery, we'll have to wait and see on this one. How about a livery editor? Where is the racer individuality? Do we actually know if the online mode will be any good? We don't even know how good the network code is. Remember, if one runs a private room, one needs to support up to 16 other players on their connection... We've not seen rollover yet, judging by what we've seen of damage though... Let's move on to tyre marks, 5th generation game on 3 consoles and still tyres don't leave marks on the road, ouch! Sounds? GT5's AI is still as useless as ever. Where are racing modes like drag racing and drifting. Where are hardcore tuner features like engine and drivetrain swaps. And not just one tyre for every compound, why not 5 or more different licenced tyre brands? Endorsed aero upgrades, no? Point to point racing? I could go on...
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  • The sense of speed is hyped in a lot of games like Forza. I drove around tracks at a steady 70mph in Prologue, and it looked almost exacly like real life. Do you want realism, or hype?
  • Damage in Forza is only about 30% real, not that much to crow about.
  • We don't know about a livery editor, that's a good one on Forza.
  • Online will probably be fine. I hope I can disable cross-game chat and messaging because I dislike it immensely, and hate Live for it.
  • Rollovers? Meh... tire marks? Eh... drag racing, meh. Drifting is in already, again, meh. Engine and drive train swaps, meh. Different tire makes, meh.
  • Sound, I'm okay with. FW3's tire sounds BLOW!
  • I'm fine with Prologue's A.I. FW3's A.I. is just as stupid, if not more so.
But what I think is the biggest difference between the two, and the one that really counts is the feel of driving a car is much more present in Prologue than FW3. Prologue feels like a racing sim, FW3 doesn't. Maybe Forza feels like real life to you because of the way you seem to cherish it, but that's not my experience, and my experience behind the wheel controller is the only one that counts.
 
Tenacious D
  • The sense of speed is hyped in a lot of games like Forza. I drove around tracks at a steady 70mph in Prologue, and it looked almost exactly like real life. Do you want realism, or hype?
  • Damage in Forza is only about 30% real, not that much to crow about.
  • We don't know about a livery editor, that's a good one on Forza.
  • Online will probably be fine. I hope I can disable cross-game chat and messaging because I dislike it immensely, and hate Live for it.
  • Rollovers? Meh... tire marks? Eh... drag racing, meh. Drifting is in already, again, meh. Engine and drive train swaps, meh. Different tire makes, meh.
  • Sound, I'm okay with. FW3's tire sounds BLOW!
  • I'm fine with Prologue's A.I. FW3's A.I. is just as stupid, if not more so.
But what I think is the biggest difference between the two, and the one that really counts is the feel of driving a car is much more present in Prologue than FW3. Prologue feels like a racing sim, FW3 doesn't. Maybe Forza feels like real life to you because of the way you seem to cherish it, but that's not my experience, and my experience behind the wheel controller is the only one that counts.
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I like the way he discounted any of FM3's good points as useless because he's not interested in them. I like the way he presents his opinions as facts, even with bogus percentages. What he says is actual how it is, not just his personal view, apparently.:sly: One thing about his post was very good though, the bullet points, that made it look a lot more authentic and official.:lol:

One can disable cross game messages and voice chat in Live.

I drove around tracks at over 100mph in real life in 3 different cars and GT5P does not seem to represent the sense of speed to me well enough, but of course it's just my opinion and I'm not going to present it as fact, unlike others.

He commented on FM3's tyre sounds in capitals being so rubbish, apparently, considering the quality tyre sounds in every GT so far...:yuck:

Lastly, as usual, the personal comments start coming in right about now. Apparently I cherish FM3, shame he hasn't read my last post...;)

EDIT: This post:

Cobra_NZ
Of course, here are some of the flaws I find in FM3 (deep breath): big difference between the menu and photomode car models and the actual in-game car models which are just slightly higher LOD than FM2, not all dials in the car interiors work, a lot of car models have errors in them, some track foliage is 2D and textured poorly, pit crew still not visible during pit stops, only 8 cars on track, missing gear shifting animations, no backfire sound or flame animation, no moving aero parts on cars like Bugatti Veyron, and many more.

Even if all the above were sorted, FM3 would still look pale in comparison to GT5 due to the superior car models, superior quality cockpits and superior lighting PD have mastered. Also the presentation in GT5 will be second to none.
Click to expand...
 
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Cobra_NZ
Of course, here are some of the flaws I find in FM3 (deep breath): big difference between the menu and photomode car models and the actual in-game car models which are just slightly higher LOD than FM2, not all dials in the car interiors work, a lot of car models have errors in them, some track foliage is 2D and textured poorly, pit crew still not visible during pit stops, only 8 cars on track, missing gear shifting animations, no backfire sound or flame animation, no moving aero parts on cars like Bugatti Veyron, and many more.

Even if all the above were sorted, FM3 would still look pale in comparison to GT5 due to the superior car models, superior quality cockpits and superior lighting PD have mastered. Also the presentation in GT5 will be second to none.
Click to expand...


Interesting! :) I was just checking ;) But you seem to have a well thought out opinion about both games in regards to their short comings. I will only be playing GT, simply because I do not own an XboX and dont see a good enough reason to buy one... I played FM1 for quite a while, FM2 I skipped and I would love to see how FM3 looks now while playing in IRL. In reality no game will be perfect and have strong and weak points obviously. Good to see youre not on the fanboy train and have thought out opinions on both... 👍 Thanks for elaborating on the matter.
 
Cobra_NZ
I like the way he discounted any of FM3's good points as useless because he's not interested in them. I like the way he presents his opinions as facts, even with bogus percentages. What he says is actual how it is, not just his personal view, apparently.:sly: One thing about his post was very good though, the bullet points, that made it look a lot more authentic and official.:lol:
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He mentioned the Livery Editor, saying it was good in Forza. He also acknowledged, that Kaz implied that there will be some from of customisation like this in GT5, which is as of yet unconfirmed.

Cobra_NZ
I drove around tracks at over 100mph in real life in 3 different cars and GT5P does not seem to represent the sense of speed to me well enough, but of course it's just my opinion and I'm not going to present it as fact, unlike others.
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You cannot replicate G-forces, bumps and vibrations simply by moving the screen around like they do in Forza. but its like those rollercoaster simulators in arcades, you do not get the same feeling as real life. GT don't bother trying to simulate it at all. If you want to simulate that, the best you can do is buy one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCZLdmMknxA

Cobra_NZ
He commented on FM3's tyre sounds in capitals being so rubbish, apparently, considering the quality tyre sounds in every GT so far...:yuck:
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But you do not deny that the tyre sounds are rubbish on FM3?

Well we'll just wait and see what the tyre sounds are like on GT5, then we can make a comparison.

You think, with the amount of people complaining about engine/tyre sounds, tyre marks on the road, collision physics etc. That PD were just going to let it stand? I'm telling you, this is what they are developing now, Kaz wanted to prove Turn10 wrong when they claimed PD had stopped improving the Genre. Well Forza 3 is just barely better than Prologue, it won't touch the full game when it gets released.
 
Tenacious D
  • The sense of speed is hyped in a lot of games like Forza. I drove around tracks at a steady 70mph in Prologue, and it looked almost exacly like real life. Do you want realism, or hype?
  • Damage in Forza is only about 30% real, not that much to crow about.
  • We don't know about a livery editor, that's a good one on Forza.
  • Online will probably be fine. I hope I can disable cross-game chat and messaging because I dislike it immensely, and hate Live for it.
  • Rollovers? Meh... tire marks? Eh... drag racing, meh. Drifting is in already, again, meh. Engine and drive train swaps, meh. Different tire makes, meh.
  • Sound, I'm okay with. FW3's tire sounds BLOW!
  • I'm fine with Prologue's A.I. FW3's A.I. is just as stupid, if not more so.
But what I think is the biggest difference between the two, and the one that really counts is the feel of driving a car is much more present in Prologue than FW3. Prologue feels like a racing sim, FW3 doesn't. Maybe Forza feels like real life to you because of the way you seem to cherish it, but that's not my experience, and my experience behind the wheel controller is the only one that counts.
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I'm sorry, you are nothing but a fanboy.

* The sense of speed in FM3 is fine (was ott in FM2 but adjustable)
* 30% dmg is better then the 0% in GT5:P and the roughly 10% in the demos at gamescon and tgs
* Chances of a livery editor in GT5 are slim to none (going from history here)
* Again history dictates how far ahead Forza will be in terms of online.
* Nice work just discounting everything that is in FM3 that isn't in/not done right in GT5/GT5:P
* You are fine with GT1 tyre sounds are you? (FM3 seems to replicate tyres over concrete curbing kinda sound)
* How is FM3's A.I stupid when it actually knows where the player and other A.I is? GT5:P's A.I is just scripted and follows 1 line

As for driving feeling, I find it spot on in Forza 3 (2 was ok) and the only problem I have found concerning the driving is a seeming stability management program that is on at all times. Basically cars don't spin out when they get loose like they should.

When you are driving within the limits of the car it is spot on, it is just abit too easy to bring it back when you smash through the limit. I really wish T10 (whom I hate) would give 3 stm options. 1, no stm at all. 2, current stm (basically 50%). 3, full stm that tries to prevent any spin.

*read all above as opinion*
 
Seismica
...You think, with the amount of people complaining about engine/tyre sounds, tyre marks on the road, collision physics etc. That PD were just going to let it stand? I'm telling you, this is what they are developing now, Kaz wanted to prove Turn10 wrong when they claimed PD had stopped improving the Genre...
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Well if it took T10 for KY and PD to get their act together, no problem, good news all around. If you are right about the features you mentioned making into the game by spring or summer 2010, then come GT5 release day I'll be in the games shop sweaty hands, debit card shaking waiting for my ultimate fix worst than Bobby Brown waiting for a crack pipe.:lol:

And what do we have for our contestant Tenacious D?

Bingo! Ding, ding, ding! Our survey says:
FyreandIce
I'm sorry, you are nothing but a fanboy...
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EDIT: Seismica you are right, he allowed one good point about FM3, but rubbished everything else. So not all of FM3's good points were waved by him. I stand corrected.👍
 
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*sighs* Why do these threads always turn into "mine's better" flamewars between fanboys? Can't you kids solve matters without resorting to calling each other names like kids under 10 do? It really shouldn't be that hard.
 
Leonidae
*sighs* Why do these threads always turn into "mine's better" flamewars between fanboys? Can't you kids solve matters without resorting to calling each other names like kids under 10 do? It really shouldn't be that hard.
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Oh look the adult that raises above it all, calling other forum members fanboys and immature. Good for him, he's shown his maturity and impartiality.:lol:
 
Gran Turismo is more realistic.

Fortsa is too easy, cars stick like glue through corners and the tracks arent accurate.

I cant even count the amount of times ive seen people write "I dont like realistic racing games because they are too hard, but i liked fortsa!!"

wow!, i wonder why?

its been making internet dorks feel like real race drivers for years now.
 
thejared
Gran Turismo is more realistic.

Fortsa is too easy, cars stick like glue through corners and the tracks arent accurate.

I cant even count the amount of times ive seen people write "I dont like realistic racing games because they are too hard, but i liked fortsa!!"

wow!, i wonder why?

its been making internet dorks feel like real race drivers for years now.
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I was expecting you to back up your first sentence with some facts. Instead, just another fanboy. :dunce:
 
Wow, this thread should be moved to the F3 forum. GT5 is being bashed in here more than Forza LOL.

No matter what the differences are, one thing remains a constant. GT has better graphics. No one can argue with that. (unless their blind, mentally challenged or a dog I guess). For me that will always be the selling point. That is why a lot of people will choose GT over Forza.

Simple
 
Really, GT5 isn't even out yet. FM3 isn't even out yet. For now all we have to form an opinion is a prologue and a demo.

Forza would really be awesome if it didn't require me to buy another wheel (other than a G25) to play it with something other than an Xbox 360 controller. If it did, I'd be getting Forza 3 too (albeit a bit later probably, me being a student and all). That's a fact.

A lot of opinions and assumptions are involved at this stage, ergo a lot of arguments play the man instead of the ball. It's no real wonder, but I find it sad, considering wether you like it or not, in the end both games will coexist.

-Z
 
AvanGard
Wow, this thread should be moved to the F3 forum. GT5 is being bashed in here more than Forza LOL...
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Can we stop this please? People like him are coming out of the woodwork, not reading the post properly, making wrong assumptions and stupid remarks. I've reported some posts as this thread needs to relax and get back on topic. I for one am not participating anymore, until things calm down.
 
Tenacious D
  • The sense of speed is hyped in a lot of games like Forza. I drove around tracks at a steady 70mph in Prologue, and it looked almost exacly like real life. Do you want realism, or hype?
  • Damage in Forza is only about 30% real, not that much to crow about.
  • We don't know about a livery editor, that's a good one on Forza.
  • Online will probably be fine. I hope I can disable cross-game chat and messaging because I dislike it immensely, and hate Live for it.
  • Rollovers? Meh... tire marks? Eh... drag racing, meh. Drifting is in already, again, meh. Engine and drive train swaps, meh. Different tire makes, meh.
  • Sound, I'm okay with. FW3's tire sounds BLOW!
  • I'm fine with Prologue's A.I. FW3's A.I. is just as stupid, if not more so.
But what I think is the biggest difference between the two, and the one that really counts is the feel of driving a car is much more present in Prologue than FW3. Prologue feels like a racing sim, FW3 doesn't. Maybe Forza feels like real life to you because of the way you seem to cherish it, but that's not my experience, and my experience behind the wheel controller is the only one that counts.
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How could you not want Tire marks in the Ultimate Driving Simulation? I mean Forza's only got 8 cars on a track, but it's got full tire marks.
 
JakeCourtney
How could you not want Tire marks in the Ultimate Driving Simulation? I mean Forza's only got 8 cars on a track, but it's got full tire marks.
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Who gives a crap... Tire marks aren't going to effect how the friggin car drives... I would much rather have no tire marks, FLAT AS PANCAKE TREES, terrible audio, no interior view, 2 cars on track, terrible graphics, and a slew of other things, as long as the cars drive the way they do in real life.
 
RedSuinit
Who gives a crap... Tire marks aren't going to effect how the friggin car drives... I would much rather have no tire marks, FLAT AS PANCAKE TREES, terrible audio, no interior view, 2 cars on track, terrible graphics, and a slew of other things, as long as the cars drive the way they do in real life.
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Car graphics are PD's biggest concern.
 
JakeCourtney
Car graphics are PD's biggest concern.
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Are you freakin kidding me... :ouch: Some people... Why do you think Kaz spends so much time DRIVING REAL CARS, because he wants to get good, (at least somewhat) realistic physics. Why? Because he is a car nerd, cars are his life. How do can you try and ensure you at least get somewhat realistic physics? By driving real cars... Arrogance is just dripping off of most of the statements you have made in this thread...
 

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