Forza 3: Leaving A Delayed GT 5 In The Pits

[kohanson]

Not sure if this was posted before, the forza community raised some concerns on Forza 3 demo and Che Chou, the community manager of Turn 10, address some of the concerns.

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-...-10-responds-to-Forza-III-graphics-complaints

 

[Simple SIM]

Not sure if this was posted before, the forza community raised some concerns on Forza 3 demo and Che Chou, the community manager of Turn 10, address some of the concerns.

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-...-10-responds-to-Forza-III-graphics-complaints

Same thing can be said about GT 5.

There will most certainly be added effects and a general cleaning up of the image in photomode.

Or how about using ray tracing in the garage. You won't find any of that during gameplay.

 

[Devedander]

Well at least he is up front and honest sounding on this one... nice of him to respond clearly

Quite a shame those high res models mostly not being used... impressive though that they could get that many high res models done even if they aren't in game. Wonder if they will find a way to cram them into 60fps gameplay next go round...

 

[Organ-Donor]

I think Forza 3 could be a nice holdover if you had a 360, but GT5 is the main event.

 

[GreatServant]

Well at least he is up front and honest sounding on this one... nice of him to respond clearly

Quite a shame those high res models mostly not being used... impressive though that they could get that many high res models done even if they aren't in game. Wonder if they will find a way to cram them into 60fps gameplay next go round...

I am doing digital effects for movies, so I have quite a bit of knowledge about this digital industry. Those hi res models do not require much work, if any, at all. It is just smooth the model, some renderer will even automatically do it during render time. Up res a model is only a matter of taking longer to render in this case.

 

[Devedander]

I am doing digital effects for movies, so I have quite a bit of knowledge about this digital industry. Those hi res models do not require much work, if any, at all. It is just smooth the model, some renderer will even automatically do it during render time. Up res a model is only a matter of taking longer to render in this case.

I am not denying your view but two things:

PD seems to have taken quite a while to capture models for their high res models

Rendering a model in higher resolution isn't tricky, but what about capturing it? You can't just capture at low resolution and then upscale... you would need to create information that isn't there. Let's say there is a crease or line that is smaller than your resolution of capture, it would be lost, rendering at a higher res won't bring it back.

For instance, take a render of a steel ball with pinstripes on it. If your original info is low resolution you can still render it back to high resolution as a nice smooth sphere. But those pinstripes that were too small to capture at original res are gone forever. Cranking up the render resolution is not going to bring them back.

For smooth, simple geometry, no problem, but for something detailed like a textured ridged lighting element?

I am not saying that's an issue with this particular circumstance, but in general.

 

[GreatServant]

I am not denying your view but two things:

PD seems to have taken quite a while to capture models for their high res models

Rendering a model in higher resolution isn't tricky, but what about capturing it? You can't just capture at low resolution and then upscale... you would need to create information that isn't there. Let's say there is a crease or line that is smaller than your resolution of capture, it would be lost, rendering at a higher res won't bring it back.

For instance, take a render of a steel ball with pinstripes on it. If your original info is low resolution you can still render it back to high resolution as a nice smooth sphere. But those pinstripes that were too small to capture at original res are gone forever. Cranking up the render resolution is not going to bring them back.

For smooth, simple geometry, no problem, but for something detailed like a textured ridged lighting element?

I am not saying that's an issue with this particular circumstance, but in general.

Yes, you are correct. Smoothing will not bring in details that was not there. But I think those rendered image from fonza3 is just smoother than the in game one, model wise. I could be wrong as I am not looking at any examples when I said this. Just from my memory and impression. I suspect they will use another totally different model (with a lot more parts and details) for publish still. coz that will make the look too much different from the final in game result.

 

[Bank]

Same thing can be said about GT 5.

There will most certainly be added effects and a general cleaning up of the image in photomode.

Or how about using ray tracing in the garage. You won't find any of that during gameplay.

Yes yes but GT still looks damn good without it.
Whereas Forza's graphic's decrease is noticeable

But yeh it'll be Photomode or something to enhance the Replay image 👍

 

[Simple SIM]

Yes yes but GT still looks damn good without it.
Whereas Forza's graphic's decrease is noticeable

But yeh it'll be Photomode or something to enhance the Replay image 👍

The difference in how good the cars look in the garage with all the ray tracing and then out on the track is most definitely "noticeable."

And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with adding more effects in the garage or in photomode. Well...maybe there is. But both Polyphony and Turn 10 do it so what can we do?

They don't go about it in exactly the same ways but they are both doing things which have the same result - to make the cars look as good as they possibly can in the garage and in photomode even if the ingame cars don't look "quite" so good.

 

[AvanGard]

Thing is by the time GT5 releases Turn 10 could be six months in the development process of Forza 4.

 

[GreatServant]

Thing is by the time GT5 releases Turn 10 could be six months in the development process of Forza 4.

but still, Fonza is still Fonza. Being on xbox is one of its major holdback. PS3 not doubt has more power, and blu ray just gives more capacity. And by looking at some fonza image, I believe they have got some thing wrong in their image base lighting... anyway yea.

 

[Angerdx]

Hmm i thought one of the biggest reasons for GT´s longer modeling time was also that they modeled quite a few parts separatly from eachother or did i just get that wrong somewhere?

 

[Cobra_NZ]

FM3 in-game models are not a patch on GT5's, and GT5 had 16 of them to FM3's 8. End of debate on that one. Even the menu high LOD car models of FM3 are not as good as GT5's. There is no discussion that PD are second to none in that department. The PS3 is a more powerful console. There is the fact that FM3's cars can have an endless combination of liveries and aero upgrades combinations, I'm sure that takes it's toll on the XBOX360's resources.

I am impressed by Che's honesty, forwardness and prompt response. To be honest it's not a problem to me. With any luck I can have GT5 next year too and if PD get their act together it will be a thing of beauty. Big "if" but, I never give up hope on GT.

EDIT: I'm more annoyed about the fact that there are quite a few models with errors, some even have the same errors from FM2, not good. The fact that in 2 years T10 did not fix some glitches and errors on some of the car models is indeed very worrying. It's fine to outsource work, but their quality control leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Yes yes but GT still looks damn good without it.
Whereas Forza's graphic's decrease is noticeable

But yeh it'll be Photomode or something to enhance the Replay image 👍

I would say very noticeable.

Still im not sure why some of the Forza community are surprised. I remember prior to FM2 release Turn 10 releasing stunning screenshots and yet gameplay looked nowhere near as impressive.

If only PD/Turn 10 could be less extreme. What I mean by this is I find PD are OTT perfectionists which is why they take so long to develop GT. However I find Turn 10 sloppy, careless in their presentation and could probably do with another 1yr development time.

Still I don't mind waiting for GT5 because I know once finally released it will be sheer quality. As I say to my friends on Xbox live "the difference between Forza 3 and GT5 is on FM3 you know your playing a video game but on GT5 you have to double check whether its real or not". The videos of GT5 are probably as close to photo realistic as your probably going to get with the current generation of consoles. Now photo realistic isn't a word I would use to describe FM3 demo because the cars look like shiny plastic toys!

The general vibe im picking up from the numerous forums that I visit is come next year there will be a mass of people leaving Forza for GT5.

 

[phil-t]

FM3 in-game models are not a patch on GT5's, and GT5 had 16 of them to FM3's 8. End of debate on that one. Even the menu high LOD car models of FM3 are not as good as GT5's. There is no discussion that PD are second to none in that department. The PS3 is a more powerful console. There is the fact that FM3's cars can have an endless combination of liveries and aero upgrades combinations, I'm sure that takes it's toll on the XBOX360's resources.

The PS3 is not a more powerful console, it's pretty much on-par with the 360, but it does have it's own technical strengths..

PD are very very skillful, their LOD system is superb, you can go from cars in a distance at very low LOD's, yet as the car gets closer and closer, the LOD goes up and up and up until it's at this insanely high level. I'm deeply impressed by this on a technical level.

The problem comes from how each spends the consoles resource..

I think it's clear that T10's graphics engine pushes a mass of detail in the track/scenery, they could have reduced that easily to dedicate it to getting more cars on screen.

It's the physics/AI and all the other non-visual per car calculations that limit the amount of cars on track for them (BadNed on FC has said this).

I'd say that IMO, both PD and T10 from their outings so far are slightly skewed too far in opposite directions and need to have a more balanced game.

In the case of FM3, I think they could reduce the physics considerably, fake the grip and other things and make it feel more convincing. Being highly technical (supposedly) about their phsyics isn't going to translate into good 'feeling' cars, and I doubt very few people appreciate all the nuances of their physics. Their AI and collision stuff is about OK (could be better, but passable). They could use this for more cars, or higher detailed cars etc..

You do also need time to optimise the graphics engines, pre-rendering parts you can, reducing numbers of cars on certain tracks, or rolling starts to reduce the load etc, and T10 don't seem to want to do this, perhaps it's time, or experience.

 

[phil-t]

I would say very noticeable.

Still im not sure why some of the Forza community are surprised. I remember prior to FM2 release Turn 10 releasing stunning screenshots and yet gameplay looked nowhere near as impressive.

If only PD/Turn 10 could be less extreme. What I mean by this is I find PD are OTT perfectionists which is why they take so long to develop GT. However I find Turn 10 sloppy, careless in their presentation and could probably do with another 1yr development time.

Still I don't mind waiting for GT5 because I know once finally released it will be sheer quality. As I say to my friends on Xbox live "the difference between Forza 3 and GT5 is on FM3 you know your playing a video game but on GT5 you have to double check whether its real or not". The videos of GT5 are probably as close to photo realistic as your probably going to get with the current generation of consoles. Now photo realistic isn't a word I would use to describe FM3 demo because the cars look like shiny plastic toys!

The general vibe im picking up from the numerous forums that I visit is come next year there will be a mass of people leaving Forza for GT5.

My opinion of the two is quite different, Both just concentrate their efforts on different aspects of their games.

With PD it's about the car models/lighting/shaders, yet being honest, they then allow some low rent scenery at times, poor shadows all over the place, collision physics and AI seem to come last.

Wit T10, their presentation is lower, they concentrate on the physics that doesn't always translate to something that feels good to drive, they concentrate on customisation of cars rather then number of cars, they limit the grid size in favour of the physics/AI.

I just see two different 'mixes' of features that appeal in different ways.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

...The general vibe im picking up from the numerous forums that I visit is come next year there will be a mass of people leaving Forza for GT5.

Haha Some people talk some wet.

Bullcrap aside, FM3 did leave GT5 in the pits, so did FM2, but Godzilla is only sleeping, it's not dead. I think FM3 has unmissable qualities and I will get years of game play out of it, like I did with FM2. However, if GT5's damage is crap and limited on stock cars I may be able to do without it.👎

 

[Bank]

Yeah GT5 will be sheer quality when it comes out 👍

 

[Cobra_NZ]

That's whay I said Godzilla is only sleeping.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Haha Some people talk some wet.

:

Come next year what I say will become true.

Let me ask you a question. Why did GT4 sell so many copies? Why did a GT5 demo outsell FM2? Answer is simple, Europe!

What many from outside of Europe fail to understand is the sheer popularity of the GT franchise. The proportion of sales of GT4 across the world was really incredible as Europe was accountable for 70% of the sales.

The problem that Turn 10 have is the only loyality shown to them is from the US but racing games aren't very popular in the states as FPS are. Many of the current European Forza players have only been playing this franchise whilst they are waiting for GT5. I can guarantee you come early spring a majority of European Forza players will buy GT5 and even buy a PS3 if they don't currently own one.

Don't get me wrong I do enjoy Forza and played FM2 since release. I feel Turn 10s strong point is online features, User generated content. Its a shame in a way Turn 10/PD couldn't join together to make the ultimate racing game.

 

[phil-t]

Come next year what I say will become true.

Let me ask you a question. Why did GT4 sell so many copies? Why did a GT5 demo outsell FM2? Answer is simple, Europe!

What many from outside of Europe fail to understand is the sheer popularity of the GT franchise. The proportion of sales of GT4 across the world was really incredible as Europe was accountable for 70% of the sales.

The problem that Turn 10 have is the only loyality shown to them is from the US but racing games aren't very popular in the states as FPS are. Many of the current European Forza players have only been playing this franchise whilst they are waiting for GT5. I can guarantee you come early spring a majority of European Forza players will buy GT5 and even buy a PS3 if they don't currently own one.

Don't get me wrong I do enjoy Forza and played FM2 since release. I feel Turn 10s strong point is online features, User generated content. Its a shame in a way Turn 10/PD couldn't join together to make the ultimate racing game.

It's kind of obvious that having played FM3 for 6 months, people will be glad for something new.. this happens all the time..

The question is, 6 months after that, what online/community/longevity features are going to keep people playing both?

Becuase if you are suggesting FM3 will be dead when GT5 lands, I think you are very wrong indeed!

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

You don't recognize the difference between a fansite publishing a story that is anti what it is a fan of and a forum that allows all view points having a member that has a negative view of some aspect of a game?

A fansite is by definition a fan of something, a forum member is not necessarily a fan of whatever the forum promotes.

If you are just saying you don't recognize it as a Sony fansite, I didn't know that either, but it's been brought up that the name sixthaxis is very close to the PS3 controller name and they do feature PS3 items on the main page that they don't offer for 360.

My question again: Where's the law that says you can't criticize something you currently support, or even change opinion? Just because it's an editor of the page doesn't mean he turns in his free speech rights at the door. Even if it was a PS3 site.

 

[Leonidae]

play nice, kids.

 

[Tapey]

Edit: Nevermind

 

[chepe371]

Thing is by the time GT5 releases Turn 10 could be six months in the development process of Forza 4.

Ya, who wouldn't want ANOTHER Forza where what you see isn't wat you get.

In Prologue you can admire a car int he dealership, purchase it, further admire it in the Menu, then take it on the track and further admire the replays, the models are consistent, safe to say if GT had that menu vs ingame problem, they'd be getting an earful.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Ya, who wouldn't want ANOTHER Forza where what you see isn't what you get.

In Prologue you can admire a car int he dealership, purchase it, further admire it in the Menu, then take it on the track and further admire the replays, the models are consistent, safe to say if GT had that menu vs ingame problem, they'd be getting an earful.

Oh please! I can admire the car in dealership, drive with with the top down, great! But,the sense of speed is really lacking. Damage is not up to much and if it will be different from stock to race cars it will be a mockery, we'll have to wait and see on this one. How about a livery editor? Where is the racer individuality? Do we actually know if the online mode will be any good? We don't even know how good the network code is. Remember, if one runs a private room, one needs to support up to 16 other players on their connection... We've not seen rollover yet, judging by what we've seen of damage though... Let's move on to tyre marks, 5th generation game on 3 consoles and still tyres don't leave marks on the road, ouch! Sounds? GT5's AI is still as useless as ever. Where are racing modes like drag racing and drifting. Where are hardcore tuner features like engine and drivetrain swaps. And not just one tyre for every compound, why not 5 or more different licenced tyre brands? Endorsed aero upgrades, no? Point to point racing? I could go on...

If you're going to mention FM3's shortcomings, try being honest about GT5's flaws too, if you can. And while you're on the subject of PD getting an earful, have you actually seen the backlash of the car model LOD issue on the official FM forums and may others? It's huge! Che was honest and apologised if the fans felt missinformed and explained everything not once but on many different forums.

 

[chepe371]

That's how it is, when in cockpit or godforbid chase cam, the sense of speed doesn't seem fast, but switch to bumper and whoop there it is.

Watch some cockpitcam races, touge or in topgear it doesn't seem fast, until they switch to the "replay"angles.

Fm dude was typical american noisemaker, makes a whole fuss, calls people out on they bluff but hes bluffing himself, cant blame him though, if you were ever a salesman or are one, you would know you gotta work with what you got, you gotta pitch that.

Gt has shortcomings, i mention them alot in other threads, the tiremarks the squeal the audio levels etc. all in there. But GT dont get all in your face, if you think about it T10 talks too much, and PD not enough, one will surprise you one will disappoint you.

 

[Exorcet]

Gt has shortcomings, i mention them alot in other threads, the tiremarks the squeal the audio levels etc. all in there. But GT dont get all in your face, if you think about it T10 talks too much, and PD not enough, one will surprise you one will disappoint you.

I know I'm just kind of jumping in, but GT has tended to disappoint me. All PD ever seems to do is point towards the graphics of the game, and making it look and feel (immersion wise) real. I think that is important, but not if the rest of the game isn't up to snuff.

GT4 was terrible. The physics were way off, career mode had no diversity, and you couldn't use career cars in arcade to make up for it. They game looked great, but that just made it hurt more when I realized everything else was mediocre. I really feel that "The Real Driving Simulating" is not deserved and somewhat misleading, at least going by GT4 and some questionable aspects of GT5P. I know these games cannot be full on sims, and that isn't their purpose, but when something is obviously wrong (aerodynamics in GT5P for instance) it feels like I'm being ripped off.

GT5 should be out already. Every time I see a photo realistic car I wonder how much time has been wasted, and how many potential features had to be dropped. I don't get that superficial vibe from Forza, and I'm eagerly awaiting the chance to properly compare the series when I get Forza 3 and GT5. The only solid strike GT has against it is the fact that I'm familiar with it. Forza, I'm not familiar with, and it doesn't look as good, so it might be idealized in my mind.

 

[TECHNIKRS4]

Gt5 IS behind FM3 IMO

 

[TeamStig]

EDIT: I'm more annoyed about the fact that there are quite a few models with errors, some even have the same errors from FM2, not good. The fact that in 2 years T10 did not fix some glitches and errors on some of the car models is indeed very worrying. It's fine to outsource work, but their quality control leaves a lot to be desired.

Exactly! This is the biggest issue I have with the Forza franchise. Many of those car models date back to 2005! The only difference is that they have been made shinier and now have interior views. Other than that, nothing has changed. I'd rather they work their accuracy and quality control instead of community features I will never use.