2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

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I read through the stats too.


The fastest top speed at a race weekend was apparently 248kph (by my estimations 160mph) by Hamilton. Even though almost every race they go over 300kph.

Slowest top speed was Schumacher at 160kph, or around 80/90 mph at Monaco. Which doesn't seem right since he had pole. So 160mph would sound better, which is the overall fastest speed a P Zero went all year. (According to there statistics.)
 
for these speeds to be that low they would have to be average lap speeds, so them speeds at monaco/ monza a very accurate, (average lap speed not being outright top speed) I think the top speed at monza was 346KPH by a Mclaren or force india,
 
TDZdave
I think the top speed at monza was 346KPH by a Mclaren or force india,
Click to expand...

The top speed at Monza was Juan Pablo Montoya's FW26 during Q1 in 2004; 262kph/162.9mph average. Antonio Pizzonia, in the sister Williams-BMW, set the all time speed trap record of 369.9kph/229.9mph. Barrichello's pole position speed that year was marginally slower than Montoya's Q1 time, and is the de jure record, wheras Montoya is the de facto record.

As for this year, the lap time was 1:24, and I have poor numeracy skills so I can't work out the speed.
 
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Liquid
The top speed at Monza was Juan Pablo Montoya's FW26 during Q1 in 2004; 262kph/162.9mph average. Antonio Pizzonia, in the sister Williams-BMW, set the all time speed trap record of 369.9kph/229.9mph. Barrichello's pole speed that year was

As for this year, the lap time was 1:24, and I have poor numeracy skills so I can't work out the speed.
Click to expand...

In saying that, what I just posted is meaningless. I thought it was all out top speed and not distance/time = speed. Ah well back to school for me.
 
Liquid
The top speed at Monza was Juan Pablo Montoya's FW26 during Q1 in 2004; 262kph/162.9mph average. Antonio Pizzonia, in the sister Williams-BMW, set the all time speed trap record of 369.9kph/229.9mph. Barrichello's pole position speed that year was marginally slower than Montoya's Q1 time, and is the de jure record, wheras Montoya is the de facto record.

As for this year, the lap time was 1:24, and I have poor numeracy skills so I can't work out the speed.
Click to expand...

Yeah bud, I was referring to this season, but those statistic's are epic,
 
prisonermonkeys
I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but it appears that Vettel may have passed Jean-Eric Vergne under yellows:

Click to expand...


Good video. It shows all three "yellow" passes.

The first two are not under yellow, the third is, but Vergne clearly backs out of the throttle to let Vettel though.

The STR driver did that in a yellow zone. :dunce: His fault entirely. I don't see how anyone can blame Vettel for that, even though you can see the yellow lights on his steering wheel.
 
There is some stupid rules regarding yellow's which means you really have to pucker up to a lot of rear end's to get yourself out of it, If I could be bothered I would go find the link and passages in the rule book, but I really can't, so I will give my memory to you in statement's/ excerpt's from the best of my memory,


1) Its illegal to pass under yellow flag's,
for the obvious reason's that contact could happen during an overtake causing a major crash and risking the lives of the marshal's,

2)Its illegal to set a fast time through a sector featuring yellow flag's,
This proves negligence towards the safety of the marshal's,

3) It is legal to pass a car that may/ may not be involved in the incident that required the yellow flag,
These are determined as vehicles that cannot maintain race speed due to damage, puncture, stuck in gravel etc,

4) Race speed, is determined as 75%-107% of the average lap,

now throw all these into a pot and see who comes out better off, but lets compare the fact's to the best of "my knowledge" and see what we come up with,
so knowing that the first 2 rules are correct and are assumed to be breached,
Jean Eric slow's down, (obvious to everyone to allow vettel to pass) he obviously slow's dramatically to do this, BUT, its obviously deemed his vehicle "malfunctioned" thus making him slower then the minimum race speed for that sector, this is entirely BS!

the footage show's what really happened, a clear breach of the rules 1 and 2, but all toro rosso would have to do is show that somewhere in the race Jean Eric had a box full of neutral's (example, pit stop) as the ECU does not have a timeline on it and would be way to hard to find in all the billion's of information recorded onto these,

( some may remember the first year of the Generic McLaren ECU, for the purpose of the FIA to use in the research of odd/ unusual/ purpose incident's, example, Alonso VS Hamilton Bahrain 09, when Alonso lifted coming out of turn 3 and making Lewis crash into the back of him)

as some of you may know, the ECU in the car is made by McLaren, but the program's run to use these by each team are created by said team, as to prevent another release of precious information, so there is no real way to view a specific timeline without the "slide of hand" in play, ( you think your watching the right thing, but that could just be an engine sensor)

these are as I remember them and may no longer be correct due to rule change nor 100% accurate, if you do know otherwise please do tell me, I'm a rules junkie,:lol:
 
Peasantslayer
It's weird how people get so nostalgic about the past, I bet at least half of the people who watched the Senna movie believe he would be at least half a second a lap faster than today's top drivers. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Well, he was 1.4 seconds quicker in qualifying than Prost in the same car (it was over 2 seconds, until Prost set a few more laps) at the 1988 Monaco GP, and 2.7 ahead of the third-place man. That's fairly special speed-wise, and even more so at Monaco. And in 1994, he took the first three pole positions of the season, even if Schuey won the races. I know the word "if" means absolutely nothing with stuff like this, but I don't doubt Senna would have remained one of - if not the - quickest drivers on the grid for as long as his career lasted.

Judging him against today's drivers is hard of course. He'd have almost certainly have retired a decade or so ago even if he'd not been killed (he'd have been 40 in 2000, if he'd retired at Schumacher's age, he'd have left the sport in 2003), and unfortunately we never really got to see him properly compete with the guy who dominated most of that decade-and-a-bit, Schumacher.

But based on past performance, it isn't so ludicrous to suggest that, at least on qualifying pace, he'd be half a second a lap quicker than today's lot! And following the other post someone made, I'd also say it's rather unfair to suggest that people only revere him because his life was cut short. That's rubbish - he was feared and admired in equal measure even before he died.
 
homeforsummer
Well, he was 1.4 seconds quicker in qualifying than Prost in the same car (it was over 2 seconds, until Prost set a few more laps) at the 1988 Monaco GP, and 2.7 ahead of the third-place man. That's fairly special speed-wise, and even more so at Monaco. And in 1994, he took the first three pole positions of the season, even if Schuey won the races. I know the word "if" means absolutely nothing with stuff like this, but I don't doubt Senna would have remained one of - if not the - quickest drivers on the grid for as long as his career lasted.

Judging him against today's drivers is hard of course. He'd have almost certainly have retired a decade or so ago even if he'd not been killed (he'd have been 40 in 2000, if he'd retired at Schumacher's age, he'd have left the sport in 2003), and unfortunately we never really got to see him properly compete with the guy who dominated most of that decade-and-a-bit, Schumacher.

But based on past performance, it isn't so ludicrous to suggest that, at least on qualifying pace, he'd be half a second a lap quicker than today's lot! And following the other post someone made, I'd also say it's rather unfair to suggest that people only revere him because his life was cut short. That's rubbish - he was feared and admired in equal measure even before he died.
Click to expand...

Well that suggests their car was comfortably the fastest and Prost went for a different setup or made mistakes, the cars are much more planted nowadays so the main difference between the top drivers is speed and not neccessarily control. I don't want to go off topic and everyone has their own opinion but I highly doubt that in the same car, with the same setup and with the same level of confidence in the car Senna would be miles quicker. Imagine a GT Academy style leaderboard for all the F1 drivers, for GT Academy the biggest gap between 2 places in the top 100 was about half a tenth so over half a second a lap seems a bit much.
 
Tired Tyres
Good video. It shows all three "yellow" passes.

The first two are not under yellow, the third is, but Vergne clearly backs out of the throttle to let Vettel though.

The STR driver did that in a yellow zone. :dunce: His fault entirely. I don't see how anyone can blame Vettel for that, even though you can see the yellow lights on his steering wheel.
Click to expand...


Apparently there was a steward marshal with a green flag on the left entering the straight. Flag marshals don't turn the steering wheel yellow light off (obviously), only the next track light transponder.
 
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Peasantslayer
Well that suggests their car was comfortably the fastest and Prost went for a different setup or made mistakes
Click to expand...

You'd think that (I did pick that example for a reason - I wasn't just picking one at random because it had a nice big number attached to it ;)), but they started at the same pace - before Senna put in consecutive quicker laps far beyond the pace that Prost, or anyone else could manage. I've an interview in an old car magazine that suggests Senna would have got even quicker, but he "snapped" back to reality having realised he'd been setting those laps almost in a trance (he described it as driving through a tunnel), and slowed down for his own safety. It isn't the first story I've heard of Senna doing that either - he very much seems to be a driver who could put himself "in the zone".

There is of course an element that the cars were trickier to drive and extract the best of back then - but we know just from comparing Vettel and Webber, Hamilton and Button, Alonso and Massa - that one driver can always extract a little more from identical machinery, if they're in the right frame of mind.

Suggesting that Senna wouldn't have been able to do the same today is a little narrow-minded, considering his abilities back in the day.
 
I said that Senna was revered in the way he is because he died. The reason I said this is because its true.

The fact is, people who are 15 know who Senna is. I know 15 year olds who don't know who Pele is, and they watch football.

Ask the same 15 year old who Prost is, and you will receive a blank look. Ask them how they know who Senna was, and you will get told "he was an F1 driver who died in a crash". Or something to that effect.

I am not denying the talent that Senna had, there is no denying it. He was extremely fast and had total control over the car. Especially in the wet.

But I fear greats of the same time are not even acknowledged because of the horrific accident that Senna underwent.
 
nealcropper
But I fear greats of the same time are not even acknowledged because of the horrific accident that Senna underwent.
Click to expand...

Without wishing to state the obvious, that's not really Senna's fault for dying.

If people don't take the time to educate themselves on the sport which they follow, then that shouldn't reflect poorly on Senna's legacy being stronger simply as a result of his death. It should reflect poorly on those who don't take the time to find out more about the time in which he raced.
 
RodrigoDLL
Not quite: this picture is from a lap earlier than the video, isnt it? He seems to be behind an HRT at the back of the image.

But anyway, on the video the STR clearly slows down a lot to let Vettel through, so its same as passing a car with problems which is ok under yellows.

On the pirelli stats: highest top speed, from Hamilton at Monza, is also clearly wrong: 248km/h? It must be 348...
Click to expand...

Yes, and if there was a green flag for that sector on lap 3...pretty sure its going to be the same on lap 4 barring further incidents (which there weren't - that sector just before is yellow for Maldonado's crash at turn 3).

And:
xq7wq2yp.gif


Not crystal clear picture but you can see the marshall waving a green flag on the left.

prisonermonkeys
I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but it appears that Vettel may have passed Jean-Eric Vergne under yellows:

Click to expand...


Tired Tyres
Good video. It shows all three "yellow" passes.

The first two are not under yellow, the third is, but Vergne clearly backs out of the throttle to let Vettel though.

The STR driver did that in a yellow zone. :dunce: His fault entirely. I don't see how anyone can blame Vettel for that, even though you can see the yellow lights on his steering wheel.
Click to expand...

TDZdave
There is some stupid rules regarding yellow's which means you really have to pucker up to a lot of rear end's to get yourself out of it, If I could be bothered I would go find the link and passages in the rule book, but I really can't, so I will give my memory to you in statement's/ excerpt's from the best of my memory,


1) Its illegal to pass under yellow flag's,
for the obvious reason's that contact could happen during an overtake causing a major crash and risking the lives of the marshal's,

2)Its illegal to set a fast time through a sector featuring yellow flag's,
This proves negligence towards the safety of the marshal's,

3) It is legal to pass a car that may/ may not be involved in the incident that required the yellow flag,
These are determined as vehicles that cannot maintain race speed due to damage, puncture, stuck in gravel etc,

4) Race speed, is determined as 75%-107% of the average lap,

now throw all these into a pot and see who comes out better off, but lets compare the fact's to the best of "my knowledge" and see what we come up with,
so knowing that the first 2 rules are correct and are assumed to be breached,
Jean Eric slow's down, (obvious to everyone to allow vettel to pass) he obviously slow's dramatically to do this, BUT, its obviously deemed his vehicle "malfunctioned" thus making him slower then the minimum race speed for that sector, this is entirely BS!

the footage show's what really happened, a clear breach of the rules 1 and 2, but all toro rosso would have to do is show that somewhere in the race Jean Eric had a box full of neutral's (example, pit stop) as the ECU does not have a timeline on it and would be way to hard to find in all the billion's of information recorded onto these,

( some may remember the first year of the Generic McLaren ECU, for the purpose of the FIA to use in the research of odd/ unusual/ purpose incident's, example, Alonso VS Hamilton Bahrain 09, when Alonso lifted coming out of turn 3 and making Lewis crash into the back of him)

as some of you may know, the ECU in the car is made by McLaren, but the program's run to use these by each team are created by said team, as to prevent another release of precious information, so there is no real way to view a specific timeline without the "slide of hand" in play, ( you think your watching the right thing, but that could just be an engine sensor)

these are as I remember them and may no longer be correct due to rule change nor 100% accurate, if you do know otherwise please do tell me, I'm a rules junkie,:lol:
Click to expand...

Refer to previous page and the above gif.

Vettel passed a green flag waved by a marshall prior to the overtake. The rules apply to physical flags, not light systems. This is because the lights are controlled by a circuit which is limited:
1. The lights at the side of the track obviously can't be placed that numerously.
2. The lights on the dash will be presumably controlled by timing beams or some kind of GPS. It won't be accurate down to the nearest marshalls post.
3. The flags are not directly connected to the electronic side.

The lights are there as an aid, but not as a finite ruling. The flags are the reference at the end of the day.

Give it up guys, just accept that Vettel has the title now. No need to be getting in a flap over complete non-issues like this.
 
homeforsummer
Without wishing to state the obvious, that's not really Senna's fault for dying.

If people don't take the time to educate themselves on the sport which they follow, then that shouldn't reflect poorly on Senna's legacy being stronger simply as a result of his death. It should reflect poorly on those who don't take the time to find out more about the time in which he raced.
Click to expand...

The thing is that before Senna died, Prost and him were on equal reputation. Prost was more steady and calculate everything while Senna was the wild dog. After he died, Senna became a legend and Prost was just seen as a f1 driver that won 4 world title (yes more than Senna). Prost is definitely underrated. Was it because Senna died, yes maybe, at least a part of it. There is also the fact that Ayrton was more flamboyant than Prost. He was much more likable.

If you actually educate yourself like you said, you'll see that Prost have nothing that Senna dont have. They were different but at the end they were both crazy good drivers.
 
homeforsummer
Without wishing to state the obvious, that's not really Senna's fault for dying.

If people don't take the time to educate themselves on the sport which they follow, then that shouldn't reflect poorly on Senna's legacy being stronger simply as a result of his death. It should reflect poorly on those who don't take the time to find out more about the time in which he raced.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but it doesn't.

Also I obviously know its wasn't Senna's fault, and I wish it had never happened. I could have done with seeing him or a few more years, and racing Schumacher when he was in his prime.
 
RX-7_FD3S
If you actually educate yourself like you said, you'll see that Prost have nothing that Senna dont have. They were different but at the end they were both crazy good drivers.
Click to expand...

I hope by "educate yourself" you're referring to people generally, rather than me personally - I've not said anything about Prost, and certainly nothing to place him on a level below Senna*.

Again, if Prost is underrated, then that's the fault of the people who haven't bothered to learn just how good a driver he was.

And you're right, I think Senna's style was more divisive - much more love/hate than Prost, who people tend to respect more than love or hate. Part of this is Prost's calculating style, and part I think is that he still didn't seem to have the grit of Senna. I seem to recall on more than one occasion, Prost simply gave up racing when the weather got too bad. That just isn't the sort of thing Senna did. It is the sort of thing quite a few modern F1 drivers seem to do, judging by their radio messages in bad conditions...


* Okay, apart from that one reference from Monaco '88 above, but that was particularly special from Senna.
 
Ardius
Yes, and if there was a green flag for that sector on lap 3...pretty sure its going to be the same on lap 4 barring further incidents (which there weren't - that sector just before is yellow for Maldonado's crash at turn 3).

And:
[IMG ]http://s7.directupload.net/images/121128/xq7wq2yp.gif[/IMG]

Not crystal clear picture but you can see the marshall waving a green flag on the left.


Refer to previous page and the above gif.

Vettel passed a green flag waved by a marshall prior to the overtake. The rules apply to physical flags, not light systems. This is because the lights are controlled by a circuit which is limited:
1. The lights at the side of the track obviously can't be placed that numerously.
2. The lights on the dash will be presumably controlled by timing beams or some kind of GPS. It won't be accurate down to the nearest marshalls post.
3. The flags are not directly connected to the electronic side.

The lights are there as an aid, but not as a finite ruling. The flags are the reference at the end of the day.

Give it up guys, just accept that Vettel has the title now. No need to be getting in a flap over complete non-issues like this.
Click to expand...

👍👍👍 Thanks for summing it all up.
 
Andrew Benson just posted on twitter "Ferrari trying to establish whether there is enough evidence to protest Sebastian Vettel for overtaking under yellow flags. Story soon."
I thought they weren't going to bother but maybe they will.
 
Just heard something pretty relevant:
Drivers now are "driving to the limits of the car and not to the limits of the driver."
 
SilverArrow
Andrew Benson just posted on twitter "Ferrari trying to establish whether there is enough evidence to protest Sebastian Vettel for overtaking under yellow flags. Story soon."
I thought they weren't going to bother but maybe they will.
Click to expand...

That would be a cruel way to lose a title, he's been to the factory to personally thank the staff and must have been wearing that V3ttel shirt since Sunday. :D I don't think they will take his title off him though, apparently you can't overtake until you have passed the green light unless there is a green flag waving, which there appears to be.
 
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Drivers are always driving to the limits of the cars. For most drivers, that's their personal limit. The difference is that some drivers can drive beyond the limits of their cars, and that's what makee them champions.

This was a good race for Button. He showed why he's in that McLaren. He may not have the abiloty to get 110% out of the car in terms of speed, but he sure got 110% out of it in terms of tire.

Rain is always great Not for the accidents, but because the racing becomes more about the driver than the car.
 
gogatrs
Just heard something pretty relevant:
Drivers now are "driving to the limits of the car and not to the limits of the driver."
Click to expand...

That is the winning formula. Prost was the professor cause he could extract 99/100 out of the car, tyres and fuel ALL the time.

I've always had a soft spot for drivers that did the opposite. Without crashing. Much. That is why I count Senna, Mansell and even Keke Rosberg amongs my all time favorites.

That said, sentence is true in general nowadays, but you can't overlook Alonso driving a couple races this year at 110%, that is why he finished some completed exhausted, and why he earned my admiration this year. As has been said, he drove 60 qualifying laps a couple times this year.
 
It's important to note that many drivers in the past couldn't drive beyond the limits of their machinery, either. Which is why we don't remember them.

Same as in music. People say music was better "back then", ignoring the possibility that 99% of it was contentless garbage, just like music is today.
 
RX-7_FD3S
The thing is that before Senna died, Prost and him were on equal reputation. Prost was more steady and calculate everything while Senna was the wild dog. After he died, Senna became a legend and Prost was just seen as a f1 driver that won 4 world title (yes more than Senna). Prost is definitely underrated. Was it because Senna died, yes maybe, at least a part of it. There is also the fact that Ayrton was more flamboyant than Prost. He was much more likable.

If you actually educate yourself like you said, you'll see that Prost have nothing that Senna dont have. They were different but at the end they were both crazy good drivers.
Click to expand...

Tell you what really doesn't help. The fact that everything I've ever watched about Senna portrays Prost as a bad guy, with Senna as the baby face good guy.
 

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