Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

Which game do you find has superior physics?

  • Gran Turismo 5

    Votes: 1,142 80.5%

  • Forza 4

    Votes: 167 11.8%

  • They are equal

    Votes: 110 7.8%
  • Total voters
    1,419
Has a professional driver chimed in on the subject ever? I wonder if the GT Academy judges have ever compared games for realism.
Boris Said!!! I'm talking to you!!! Haha
 
Lol he had traction controls on on forza and he wonders why the steering went heavier, he may be a racing driver but he obviously doesn't no how to set up a game
 
hennessey86
I don't mind being beaten by a better driver, I m not the fastest out there I will fully admit that. But when I see people cheating to get faster times it annoys me, also I have never seen a touring car driver, an f1 driver, a dtm driver etc trail break to get faster times. Show me an example of a professional racing driver using trail breaking to get faster lap times and I will hold my hands up and Apologise.
Click to expand...

Trail breaking is actually an important part of driving very fast.



Nice little video of pedal work in a V8 Supercar. Notice the steering inputs in conjunction to break inputs (the little navman sticker is on the steering shaft).
 
Zer0
Well... jump at 19:32
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Well his driving in racing games hasn't improved much over the years and his top three seem to indicate he was looking more at 'fun' than realism.........



....what I do find a little interesting is that you threw your arms up about bias in regard to Evo's look at Forza 4, yet post this as a racers view of games. That's even more suspect when you watch the video from late '97 above. Tiff clearly rates TOCA (and with good reason) without mentioning his part in the series.
 
FyreandIce
Trail breaking is actually an important part of driving very fast.



Nice little video of pedal work in a V8 Supercar. Notice the steering inputs in conjunction to break inputs (the little navman sticker is on the steering shaft).
Click to expand...


To be honet I mis understud what trail breaking was which I said in a comment after that one.
 
Scaff
Well his driving in racing games hasn't improved much over the years and his top three seem to indicate he was looking more at 'fun' than realism.........



....what I do find a little interesting is that you threw your arms up about bias in regard to Evo's look at Forza 4, yet post this as a racers view of games. That's even more suspect when you watch the video from late '97 above. Tiff clearly rates TOCA (and with good reason) without mentioning his part in the series.
Click to expand...

So defensive Scaff. Yes it's obvious he was looking for fun and also other aspects of realism (sound, crashes, effects and race ambient), a whole package and not just driving realism or he would give GT5 a top position judging by his commentaries.

Someone asked for an opinion and that video exists, I don't take it too seriously (and that's because the "Well..."), is just a curiosity. It would be nice a full program related to compare only both games and more in depth with individual car characteristics and driving inputs in mind.
 
Zer0
So defensive Scaff. Yes it's obvious he was looking for fun and also other aspects of realism (sound, crashes, effects and race ambient), a whole package and not just driving realism or he would give GT5 a top position judging by his commentaries.

Someone asked for an opinion and that video exists, I don't take it too seriously (and that's because the "Well..."), is just a curiosity. It would be nice a full program related to compare only both games and more in depth with individual car characteristics and driving inputs in mind.
Click to expand...

How was he defensive, he was stating facts. It's you who has gone on the defensive, I mean he had traction control on in forza for crying out loud.
 
hennessey86
How was he defensive, he was stating facts. It's you who has gone on the defensive, I mean he had traction control on in forza for crying out loud.
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Traction control in Forza makes the cars more difficult to drive and has an effect of reversed force feedback? I ask because I don't understand how that could change those characteristics in the game.
 
Zer0
So defensive Scaff. Yes it's obvious he was looking for fun and also other aspects of realism (sound, crashes, effects and race ambient), a whole package and not just driving realism or he would give GT5 a top position judging by his commentaries.

Someone asked for an opinion and that video exists, I don't take it too seriously (and that's because the "Well..."), is just a curiosity. It would be nice a full program related to compare only both games and more in depth with individual car characteristics and driving inputs in mind.
Click to expand...

Not defensive - simply an observation with an interesting video to boot.

Please keep in mind that I'm not the one who went off about bias in the media making the opinions they hold suspect, that was yourself.

I simply found it interesting that your happy to ignore your own standard when the conditions are, in your view, favorable.

Personally I also doubt he would give GT5 the top slot for realism as well, that would be Simraceway.


Zer0
Traction control in Forza makes the cars more difficult to drive and has an effect of reversed force feedback? I ask because I don't understand how that could change those characteristics in the game.
Click to expand...

Why? Most of the aids in GT5 totally change the driving characteristics of the cars and for many make the cars more difficult to drive effectively.

To be honest I find the steering assistance on both FM4 and GT5 make the cars handle in an utterly odd way.

In regard to FFB being odd on countersteer, that's totally at odd with my experience wity both Fanatec and MS wheels on it.
 
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Scaff
Not defensive - simply an observation with an interesting video to boot.

Please keep in mind that I'm not the one who went off about bias in the media making the opinions they hold suspect, that was yourself.

I simply found it interesting that your happy to ignore your own standard when the conditions are, in your view, favorable.

Personally I also doubt he would give GT5 the top slot for realism as well, that would be Simraceway.




Why? Most of the aids in GT5 totally change the driving characteristics of the cars and for many make the cars more difficult to drive effectively.

To be honest I find the steering assistance on both FM4 and GT5 make the cars handle in an utterly odd way.

In regard to FFB being odd on countersteer, that's totally at odd with my experience wity both Fanatec and MS wheels on it.
Click to expand...
Are we playing the same game here? :) I give credit only to certain articles/comments because certain reasons that are valid to me, and you give credit to certain others because match better yours.

My standards are not ignored. Even if I don't have an intention to enter on a forced discussion and I already stated what I think of that vid, you found the car reviews in Fifth Gear biased? so why would be the comments about two games that don't even are in their top? some of his points were also shared in this thread by many others. And for last, Fifth Gear was included in the promotion campaign of GT5 or FM4?

This for example is what I mean with not trustable and clearly promotional material:



By top position I mean a possition in their top ranking, sorry if I was not clear.

What aids in GT5 make the game harder to play with a wheel for a not experienced game player? I haven't found any, always that someone jumps at my rig found the cars easy to drive with all switched on. I don't think that is much common like say. Default cars in both games always have the optional aids switched on for a reason.
 
Zer0
Are we playing the same game here? :) I give credit only to certain articles/comments because certain reasons that are valid to me, and you give credit to certain others because match better yours.
Click to expand...
Actually I've never posted the Evo articles as anything other than an interesting read, and even more crucially posted them at Forza Planet.

http://www.forzaplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=112

You were however rather vocal (and inaccurate) about how the Evo piece must have been paid for advertising, which may explain why I both find it odd that you don't add the same caveats and concerns to this and unsurprising that you don't what to discuss it.



Zer0
My standards are not ignored. Even if I don't have an intention to enter on a forced discussion and I already stated what I think of that vid, you found the car reviews in Fifth Gear biased? so why would be the comments about two games that don't even are in their top? some of his points were also shared in this thread by many others. And for last, Fifth Gear was included in the promotion campaign of GT5 or FM4?
Click to expand...
I've not stated any of those things (apart from Tiff does potentially have form for bias - but then everyone does - something I have repeated said on both Planets).



Zer0
This for example is what I mean with not trustable and clearly promotional material:
Click to expand...
Promotional material? Yes
Untrustworthy? Not really

Its a load of drivers talking about the feeling of real racing spliced with footage from Forza. Had they all been stating that FM3 ws the 'best thing in the world and these are the feeling I get directly from it' then you might have a point.


Zer0
By top position I mean a possition in their top ranking, sorry if I was not clear.
Click to expand...
It wasn't clear, thanks for the clarification.


Zer0
What aids in GT5 make the game harder to play with a wheel for a not experienced game player? I haven't found any, always that someone jumps at my rig found the cars easy to drive with all switched on. I don't think that is much common like say. Default cars in both games always have the optional aids switched on for a reason.
Click to expand...
I don't recall saying 'not experienced' driver? I said...

Scaff
....for many make the cars more difficult to drive effectively
Click to expand...

...so please do not misquote me.

Both have aids that when all switched on make the cars easy to drive for just about anyone (FM4 in particular with the Kinect integration) and both have aids that do 'odd' things in comparison to the real world that can make "the cars more difficult to drive effectively".

FM4's highest level of steering assistance does this for me as I over-correct all the time with it and GT5's ABS is just plain stupid as it blatantly adds a form of EBD and Stability control (to such as degree that brake bias settings become pointless even with ABS set to 1).
 
Scaff
Actually I've never posted the Evo articles as anything other than an interesting read, and even more crucially posted them at Forza Planet.

http://www.forzaplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=112

You were however rather vocal (and inaccurate) about how the Evo piece must have been paid for advertising, which may explain why I both find it odd that you don't add the same caveats and concerns to this and unsurprising that you don't what to discuss it.




I've not stated any of those things (apart from Tiff does potentially have form for bias - but then everyone does - something I have repeated said on both Planets).




Promotional material? Yes
Untrustworthy? Not really

Its a load of drivers talking about the feeling of real racing spliced with footage from Forza. Had they all been stating that FM3 ws the 'best thing in the world and these are the feeling I get directly from it' then you might have a point.



It wasn't clear, thanks for the clarification.



I don't recall saying 'not experienced' driver? I said...



...so please do not misquote me.

Both have aids that when all switched on make the cars easy to drive for just about anyone (FM4 in particular with the Kinect integration) and both have aids that do 'odd' things in comparison to the real world that can make "the cars more difficult to drive effectively".

FM4's highest level of steering assistance does this for me as I over-correct all the time with it and GT5's ABS is just plain stupid as it blatantly adds a form of EBD and Stability control (to such as degree that brake bias settings become pointless even with ABS set to 1).
Click to expand...
Oh I mean that you was defending the validity of the EVO article, really is not important to me who bring it originally to the discussion. I never look what happens in forzaplanet.

About the FM4 dedicated section in the EVO website (http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/) it's clear that was part of a payed promotion. No comercial website is going to give free traffic and official support for free. :)

And if you don't trust my logic just read this:
http://www.dennis.co.uk/press-room/...-platform-campaign-in-dennis-publishing-s-evo

The pressure for a good review is there always that exist a conflict of interests between the two parts.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/

I was not trying to imply any word from you about Fifth Gear, were just questions that once answered would make more clear to you the points because I think that the Tiff opinion about FM4 and GT5 has nothing to do with the EVO case.

I found the FM3 vid misleading and a typical case of real drivers used to promote a game, but I agree there are best examples of drivers being paid to promote directly the gameplay.

About the not experienced game player, I thought that with your first reply you was implying that Tiff was one of them, to invalidate his opinion, so I asumed that type of players on my reply. Was not that the intention? I don't see the point to discuss aids on experienced game players when the subject was Tiff and his lack of.
 
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Zer0
Well... jump at 19:32

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wm9-4KJtLo">YouTube Link</a>
Click to expand...

From the host's point of view, GT5 is more realistic than Forza. But neither made his top 3.

What I took from it is that GT beat Forza for realism. But until more pro drivers do a more in depth side-by-side comparison, there will always be too many people on both sides of the fence to give a clear winner.

I'll give the edge to PD.
 
JeremiahTB
From the host's point of view, GT5 is more realistic than Forza. But neither made his top 3.

What I took from it is that GT beat Forza for realism. But until more pro drivers do a more in depth side-by-side comparison, there will always be too many people on both sides of the fence to give a clear winner.

I'll give the edge to PD.
Click to expand...

He gave each game about 10 seconds each and had traction control on in forza which is very restrictive. I wouldn't take anything from that video.
 
The way I see it is both games do a good job and I would respect anyone's personal choice of either if you can only play one. What i Can't stand is when people start talking utter rubbish about forza, blatantly having never played the game, or had a quick go round a friends house one day.
 
I have played both FM4 and GT5, and my car is in both games. When I play either game, I turn off all driver aids, TC, ABS, ASM, all off. I drive an AE86 in case my username didn't give that away. I have had it for two years and have driven it at high levels in controlled situations. It is entirely stock. My tires are Falken ZX913, stock size rims, equal to comfort soft in GT5 and Pirelli PZero all season's in FM4. GT5 more realistically portrays the handling, especially the braking with how I can start a drift while braking by releasing brake pressure just before the apex, turning in, getting back on the brakes hard while letting the wheel go to counter steer causing the rear end to go out... This is where the biggest difference between the two games physics, where GT5 gets it right and FM4 gets it wrong. Besides this, Forza 4's physics seems almost as good as GT3. Not all cars just go straight off if you try to feint braking like they do in Forza, but I have driven a car that acts like that, the Nissan 240SX. I imagine American cars do this with their heavy front ends. The 240SX got a 2.0L turbo around the world in its 200SX/Silvia name, but got a 2.4L in America, leading to an overly heavy front end which makes feint braking impossible.

Forza's AI is more fun to race against, and it has Porsche's, but I'm still a Gran Turismo racer
 
Zer0
Oh I mean that you was defending the validity of the EVO article, really is not important to me who bring it originally to the discussion. I never look what happens in forzaplanet.
Click to expand...
No - What I said when the Evo info was posted on here (which was not by me) was that Chris Harris's use of a pad didn't automatically invalidate his opinion. That was it.

You brought all the other points up, please feel free to go back and check the post history on it, I have.


Zer0
About the FM4 dedicated section in the EVO website (http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/) it's clear that was part of a payed promotion. No comercial website is going to give free traffic and official support for free. :)

And if you don't trust my logic just read this:
http://www.dennis.co.uk/press-room/...-platform-campaign-in-dennis-publishing-s-evo
Click to expand...


Zer0
The pressure for a good review is there always that exist a conflict of interests between the two parts.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/
Click to expand...

Zer0
I was not trying to imply any word from you about Fifth Gear, were just questions that once answered would make more clear to you the points because I think that the Tiff opinion about FM4 and GT5 has nothing to do with the EVO case.
Click to expand...
So no commercial website will give away space for free, but a commercial television programme (which has significantly higher overheads) will?

The truth of the matter is both will charge or do it for free based on what increase in traffic they believe it will bring, you have no evidence at all that money changed hands to provide a favorable review or editorial. You have also ignored the fact that over the years Evo has given more coverage to the GT series in its pages that it ever has Forza, oh and around the same amount to SimRaceway.

As for the review, odd that you forgot that I have already posted the review that Evo gave of FM4 (the one carried out by the 14 year old son of a staff member). If MS did pay for that (and despite your claims you have not been able to prove that they did or that GT/Simraceway did or didn't) they must be overjoyed with that review.

I also find it odd that you are quite happy to state that the 5th Gear piece could not have been influenced, yet forget that someone provided the games, kit they were running on and the rigs (one worth £11k), how can you be so sure that the providers of that kit didn't influence anything?

The simple answer is that you can't, yet you continue with the bizarre assumption that one is automatically biased and the other isn't? Please keep in mind that all I have said is that I think you should apply your standards equally to what are two commercial enterprises.


Zer0
I found the FM3 vid misleading and a typical case of real drivers used to promote a game, but I agree there are best examples of drivers being paid to promote directly the gameplay.
Click to expand...
In what way is it misleading?

I'm sorry you would have to be rather naive to believe that they are referring to FM3 and not real racing situations. Now if you had shown the any of the Bruno Senna videos that talk about FRC you would have a point, as he was the official mouthpiece of the title:





Zer0
About the not experienced game player, I thought that with your first reply you was implying that Tiff was one of them, to invalidate his opinion, so I asumed that type of players on my reply. Was not that the intention? I don't see the point to discuss aids on experienced game players when the subject was Tiff and his lack of.
Click to expand...
I replied to you comment about aids in FM4 and expanded it to aids in both GT5 and FM4 that act oddly. I never mentioned Tiff, I clearly explained the circumstances I was talking about (which is why all I did was re-post my original words as a rebutal).

You also make an assumption that Tiff is not a gamer, yet he clearly has been reviewing driving games over a 15 year period, he may not be the best driver of them, but you've assumed that makes him inexperienced.

I would strongly suggest that you stop making assumptions about what you think people are saying and actually take the time to read and understand what they have actually said and reply to that.
 
hennessey86
He gave each game about 10 seconds each and had traction control on in forza which is very restrictive. I wouldn't take anything from that video.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure he gave more than 10 seconds to each game. Through the magic of television it may seem like it, but it's all just editing. Like I said, more pro drivers need to chime in so we can all get a feel of how the experts in race car driving feel.
 
TofuDrift420
I have played both FM4 and GT5, and my car is in both games. When I play either game, I turn off all driver aids, TC, ABS, ASM, all off. I drive an AE86 in case my username didn't give that away. I have had it for two years and have driven it at high levels in controlled situations. It is entirely stock. My tires are Falken ZX913, stock size rims, equal to comfort soft in GT5 and Pirelli PZero all season's in FM4. GT5 more realistically portrays the handling, especially the braking with how I can start a drift while braking by releasing brake pressure just before the apex, turning in, getting back on the brakes hard while letting the wheel go to counter steer causing the rear end to go out... This is where the biggest difference between the two games physics, where GT5 gets it right and FM4 gets it wrong. Besides this, Forza 4's physics seems almost as good as GT3. Not all cars just go straight off if you try to feint braking like they do in Forza, but I have driven a car that acts like that, the Nissan 240SX. I imagine American cars do this with their heavy front ends. The 240SX got a 2.0L turbo around the world in its 200SX/Silvia name, but got a 2.4L in America, leading to an overly heavy front end which makes feint braking impossible.

Forza's AI is more fun to race against, and it has Porsche's, but I'm still a Gran Turismo racer
Click to expand...

Two questions and two observations.

Q1. You have a rare beast of a car, particularly in stock form, could you share some pictures.

Q2. How do you know which tyres are P Zero's in FM4? They are not named in that way. Oh and do you mean Falken ZE 912's

Observation 1. Not all cars "just go straight off if you try to feint braking" in FM4 at all.

Observation 2. FM4's physics are nearly as good as GT3's. Odd, why did PD take out tyre deformation from GT3 onward and also remove the ability for torque steering from a standing start?
 
Scaff
Two questions and two observations.

Q1. You have a rare beast of a car, particularly in stock form, could you share some pictures.

Q2. How do you know which tyres are P Zero's in FM4? They are not named in that way. Oh and do you mean Falken ZE 912's

Observation 1. Not all cars "just go straight off if you try to feint braking" in FM4 at all.

Observation 2. FM4's physics are nearly as good as GT3's. Odd, why did PD take out tyre deformation from GT3 onward and also remove the ability for torque steering from a standing start?
Click to expand...

Addendum, I just made my first FM4 video. 15 seconds of AE86 sliding due to weight transfer on braking. It's trivially easy.

It said I needed Gold to upload it, so I take it I can't copy to USB like you can with GT photos.
 
Exorcet
Addendum, I just made my first FM4 video. 15 seconds of AE86 sliding due to weight transfer on braking. It's trivially easy.

It said I needed Gold to upload it, so I take it I can't copy to USB like you can with GT photos.
Click to expand...

You do need gold - 2 day pass code just been PM'd to you.
 
JeremiahTB
Relax, sir.
Click to expand...

My sense of well being has nothing to do with it.

You agreed to follow the AUP when you joined, you either intend to do so or you leave.

Its not a topic for debate or discussion (I suggest you take that hint), its an instruction and my next action on this should you persist will be formal.

I'm quite relaxed about that.
 
I feel gt has the advantage in the physics department. I just feel as if forzas cars are never planted as if the tyres are abit jellyish :lol: anyway forza beats gt in the tuning and sound department.:-)
 
Conbon14
I feel gt has the advantage in the physics department. I just feel as if forzas cars are never planted as if the tyres are abit jellyish :lol: anyway forza beats gt in the tuning and sound department.:-)
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I agree with the planted feel, but I feel cars are too planted in gt5 and not enough in forza. There is no middle ground in gt you either have grip or you don't. I like Forzas progressive tire feel but I would like it to have that tire bite gt has
 

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