Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[UnlimitedIV]

Forza: 7/10
GT5: 9/10


Forza has a really weird feeling to it but it has more JDM Stuff



BUT GT5 IS BETTER

 

[thelvynau]

Forza: 7/10
GT5: 9/10

Forza has a really weird feeling to it but it has more JDM Stuff

BUT GT5 IS BETTER

What reviewer scored them?

The reason I ask is there are so many reviewers out there that you cant base which is better by 1 review.

 

[Samus]

That is what I have said this entire time.


But still in all honesty i still say Forza is over glorified and is trying to be bigger than it is. The to me where the physics are concentrated in Forza doesn't really do it for me. But where they are concentrated in GT5 does matter for me (resulting in my reasoning saying GT5 is better)

What on earth does that even mean?

 

[hennessey86]

Gt academy proved to me that there are a lot of things wrong with GTs physics, all the faster drivers were using the same tire destroying driving technique to achieve the fastest times. You drive like that in forza and you will lose to much time like you would on real life.

 

[thelvynau]

Gt academy proved to me that there are a lot of things wrong with GTs physics, all the faster drivers were using the same tire destroying driving technique to achieve the fastest times. You drive like that in forza and you will lose to much time like you would on real life.

Do you have any video examples?

 

[C_Raccoon23]

Do you have any video examples?

Can't post a video right now. But I know what he's talking about. Look at a replay of the fastest GT Academy times and watch how the drivers slide around the track like they're on ice.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I don't think that is relevant now, as GT5 2.09 has an updated physics, tires have more grip, especially comfort tires, while sports tires grip loss is now more progressive, I can drive full power Ford Mustang Trans Cammer, Jaguar XKR, Corvette C3 (500HP+ at least) on comfort medium, and loss of grip is not as sudden as before, I am using stick ( feedback is still available - visual, sound and vibration ) and no aids ( no ABS ). Basically the icy feeling is gone now, at least that's what I feel. Most of the times I can just exit a corner with the rear just slide but still gripping on comfort

 

[thelvynau]

I might jump into you tube see what I can find

 

[Samus]

I don't think that is relevant now, as GT5 2.09 has an updated physics, tires have more grip, especially comfort tires, while sports tires grip loss is now more progressive, I can drive full power Ford Mustang Trans Cammer, Jaguar XKR, Corvette C3 (500HP+ at least) on comfort medium, and loss of grip is not as sudden as before, I am using stick ( feedback is still available - visual, sound and vibration ) and no aids ( no ABS ). Basically the icy feeling is gone now, at least that's what I feel. Most of the times I can just exit a corner with the rear just slide but still gripping on comfort

It's not about the tyres gripping, it's about how they were taking the corners, purposely sliding the car to get it pointing where they wanted. That physics issue is still there as far as I know.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

It's not about the tyres gripping, it's about how they were taking the corners, purposely sliding the car to get it pointing where they wanted. That physics issue is still there as far as I know.

I think the sliding issue only happen to certain tires, maybe on certain compound of sports and racing tire, as I often drive with comfort, when I slide, the car loses speed and getting it to certain direction is hard to do, if you take a look at the last NSX at Motegi with comfort soft TT, sliding or even a fraction of grip loss will actually mean lost time.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Gt academy proved to me that there are a lot of things wrong with GTs physics, all the faster drivers were using the same tire destroying driving technique to achieve the fastest times. You drive like that in forza and you will lose to much time like you would on real life.

The drivers with fast times generally were using tyres very efficiently due to smooth driving, wear would not matter much as it is only generally one qualifying lap and only using tyres a bit harder than normal through a few corners for a very short period of time.

Fastest lap video here:

It's not about the tyres gripping, it's about how they were taking the corners, purposely sliding the car to get it pointing where they wanted. That physics issue is still there as far as I know.

Maximising slip angle to get car pointed in real life is quite common thing to do if you are trying to do a fast qualifying lap. Not saying GT5 has got it spot on but at least you can use braking to get speed advantage, something Vettel wanted with his car this year and got it finally in right direction with car update. http://www.autoweek.com/article/20121125/f1/121129931

 

[Crimson]

My experience with driving in real life is quite limited in this context, I have driven on the road a great deal and have never put in any time on a race course. The only time I feel I have pushed a car to its limit was when performing a couple of ABS assisted emergency stops, and I must say I feel that heavy braking is modelled better in Forza 4. Although neither game really puts across the feeling of there being 'gravel' under the tyres (not literally, I am referring to the slightly gravelly feel of the road when ABS kicks in), the ABS struggling to keep up and the tyres losing and gaining grip repeatedly just feels better executed in FM4.

I have not played either game with a wheel.

 

[Scaff]

I don't think that is relevant now, as GT5 2.09 has an updated physics, tires have more grip, especially comfort tires, while sports tires grip loss is now more progressive, I can drive full power Ford Mustang Trans Cammer, Jaguar XKR, Corvette C3 (500HP+ at least) on comfort medium, and loss of grip is not as sudden as before, I am using stick ( feedback is still available - visual, sound and vibration ) and no aids ( no ABS ). Basically the icy feeling is gone now, at least that's what I feel. Most of the times I can just exit a corner with the rear just slide but still gripping on comfort

I would disagree that the icy feeling has gone.

2.09 has certainly made a difference, but more in terms of suspension modeling than the tyre model. Its made a good deal of difference in terms of how the car feels below the limit, however speed loss through tyre scrub is still almost non-existent (which is what was refereed to here - exceeding the tyres slip angle doesn't scrub speed of anything like as much as it should).

However once you are over the limit (or with high torque cars) teh tyre model is still the same old mess that it was pre 2.09.

Maximising slip angle to get car pointed in real life is quite common thing to do if you are trying to do a fast qualifying lap. Not saying GT5 has got it spot on but at least you can use braking to get speed advantage, something Vettel wanted with his car this year and got it finally in right direction with car update. http://www.autoweek.com/article/20121125/f1/121129931

Not maximizing slip angle, but using the optimal slip angle for the tyre.

If you simply maximized the slip angle (so keep increasing the difference between the axis the tyre is pointed and the direction the car is travelling) you are simply increasing the degree of under or oversteer and lateral force (required to actually corner).

The optimum slip angle will vary from tyre to tyre, with road tyres generally around 3 degrees, and race compounds going as high as 6 - 8 degrees.

As slip angle increases to this optimum level so does lateral force, however once you go over the optimum slip angle lateral force starts to decrease and can do so very rapidly (the exact rate will once again depend on the tyre).

GT5 works fine in regard, it doesn't however seem to accurately model the loss in speed that comes with exceeding the optimum slip angle.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Not maximizing slip angle, but using the optimal slip angle for the tyre.

If you simply maximized the slip angle (so keep increasing the difference between the axis the tyre is pointed and the direction the car is travelling) you are simply increasing the degree of under or oversteer and lateral force (required to actually corner).

The optimum slip angle will vary from tyre to tyre, with road tyres generally around 3 degrees, and race compounds going as high as 6 - 8 degrees.

As slip angle increases to this optimum level so does lateral force, however once you go over the optimum slip angle lateral force starts to decrease and can do so very rapidly (the exact rate will once again depend on the tyre).

GT5 works fine in regard, it doesn't however seem to accurately model the loss in speed that comes with exceeding the optimum slip angle.

I agree, optimum is the right word instead of maximum.

If you do overstep the optimum slip angle in GT5 you start losing a lot of time. I know from enough of moments in game but if you just get the tyres right on the edge it is very rewarding.

 

[Scaff]

I agree, optimum is the right word instead of maximum.

If you do overstep the optimum slip angle in GT5 you start losing a lot of time. I know from enough of moments in game but if you just get the tyres right on the edge it is very rewarding.

You don't loose a lot of time in GT5 for doing so at all, nothing close to what you should do.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You don't loose a lot of time in GT5 for doing so at all, nothing close to what you should do.

Depends on what you mean by losing a lot of time or how much you should do? You can lose quite a lot of time, tenths or seconds in just one corner if you go over the limit regarding optimum slip angle. Depends on car and corner also.

 

[JeremiahTB]

GT has much better physics. I bought Forza with my Xbox when first purchased and was very disappointed at how the cars felt. When I bought GT5, I sold my Xbox because GT5 took up most of my gaming time and the Xbox became nearly useless (I dusted it more than I played it). But Forza has a lot of bells and whistles that PD needs to implement with GT6. However, it is entirely possible that I was just spoiled by GT.

 

[Scaff]

Depends on what you mean by losing a lot of time or how much you should do? You can lose quite a lot of time, tenths or seconds in just one corner if you go over the limit regarding optimum slip angle. Depends on car and corner also.

Could you provide an example of a car and corner that exhibits this?

GT has much better physics. I bought Forza with my Xbox when first purchased and was very disappointed at how the cars felt. When I bought GT5, I sold my Xbox because GT5 took up most of my gaming time and the Xbox became nearly useless (I dusted it more than I played it). But Forza has a lot of bells and whistles that PD needs to implement with GT6. However, it is entirely possible that I was just spoiled by GT.

Which Forza?

As FM4 makes a very big difference.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Could you provide an example of a car and corner that exhibits this?

Well a quick example will be the 370Z Tuned car, same one in video posted above. If you go over the limit you lose a lot of time due to losing the rears, sliding and from that losing a lot of traction and minimum speed. Corner examples are like the final two corners in that Twin Ring Motegi East Short Course especially second to last one. I'm sure there must have been others who tried to drive it on the optimum slip angle in the game but lost quite a bit of time due to exceeding the limit.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

An easy test for whether sliding will cause loss of time, pick any car, fit comfort soft tire, head to Suzuka East Course, now do a clean run, just smooth driving. Then with the same exact car, try to push it harder on the last turn, when the rear started to slip, let it catch bigger angle, time will be lost and there won't be any speed gained there.

I have been running various cars and various PP on this combo for the past few weeks for Deadnutsevenracing club events hosted by JohnnyPenso here in GTP. I tried Honda Insight LS, an FF hybrid, when I started to slip the front and goes red on the last turn, time usually lost, and when I do this often in 1 lap ( a short one ranging from 1:01 to 1:03 ), loss of time can be in seconds. The effect is even worse with FR, RR or MR cars, like Lotus Elise '96, RUF Yellowbird or GT86.

 

[hennessey86]

You see there it is again, a blatant gt5 physics issue being defended to the hilt.

 

[JeremiahTB]

Which Forza?

As FM4 makes a very big difference.

I was speaking of Part 3. From what I've been told, 4 was not much improved...especially compared to GT5.

 

[Samus]

I was speaking of Part 3. From what I've been told, 4 was not much improved...especially compared to GT5.

It definitely was.

Also Ridox that isn't the same thing.

 

[JeremiahTB]

It definitely was.

I guess I'll have to find someone who has it so I can test it out. It might be hard though, considering most of my gamer friends that have an Xbox only play Madden and CoD.

 

[Scaff]

I was speaking of Part 3. From what I've been told, 4 was not much improved...especially compared to GT5.

They overhauled the tyre and suspension models between FM3 and FM4, the difference between them in that regard is significant.

On the tyre scrub thing, my bad I was not talking about time lost over the course of a lap, but rather that speed (as in vehicle velocity) doesn't not drop as much as it should once optimal slip angle has been exceeded.

 

[Zer0]

On the tyre scrub thing, my bad I was not talking about time lost over the course of a lap, but rather that speed (as in vehicle velocity) doesn't not drop as much as it should once optimal slip angle has been exceeded.

You mean in some extreme situations?

Here for example I don't see any significant lose of speed:

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If comparing to what I see in real life, in GT5 the drop in speed due to tire scrubbing may not be realistic, but it's close enough for me. Go to 52:30 then keep watching until 58:00 , and watch the drop of speed due to tire scrubbing when Tsuchiya did his thing, fast drift Not much, less than 20 km/h on higher speed corner.


Now. my question is, does Forza 4 drop a lot in speed when doing fast drift on street tire ? How much considered realistic ?

In GT5, the closest tire that resembles the drop in speed is comfort medium, I tried it on BMW Z4 M Coupe'08 stock.

 

[Exorcet]

I guess I'll have to find someone who has it so I can test it out. It might be hard though, considering most of my gamer friends that have an Xbox only play Madden and CoD.

Pretty much every demo Xbox in stores has a FM4 demo on it. I'd suggest you try it. It blows away FM3 and GT5 by a noticeable amount.

I'd suggest taking the Subaru and when you reach the high speed esses torwards the end of the demo track, get stupid with the gas and steering (ie shift weight to the front violently). You won't be able to recreate what happens in GT5.

 

[generationlost]

Interesting, in-depth response 👍
Strangely, I feel almost opposite of you; I find the subtlety in FM4 completely lacking in GT5, and the former has a much more progressive slip-to-grip character than GT5. Admittedly, I still haven't played FM4 much with a wheel (bar trying it at a friend's with his older Fanatec Porsche wheel), while I had a fair amount of time with a wheel on GT5 before it broke. Both on controllers, I get no feeling from GT, and find it'll easily move to full-on tank-slapper status without telegraphing much of it to me, either through visuals or force feedback.

The thing is that I'm so in tune with GT5's physics that correcting oversteer in GT5 is almost second nature to me. I can easily tell (visually) when the direction the car is going =/= my steering input. I can quickly flick the analog stick in the opposite direction before oversteer ever becomes a major problem.

You actually may be right. I tried drifting in Forza, but I either countersteered too soon or too late. I couldn't find that sweet spot. This is probably just me trying to find the right time to apply countersteer. I found myself overcorrecting most of the time which indicates I'm countersteering too early. I'm probably mistaking abrupt loss of grip with countersteering too early, resulting in oversteer in the other direction.

Too bad I can't play Forza 4 and GT5 back to back and give more accurate observations.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You see there it is again, a blatant gt5 physics issue being defended to the hilt.

Using braking techniques to go faster in real life or virtual world is common, techniques such as trail braking. No one is saying it is perfect but at least it encourages at this early stage to try techniques to go faster that you might try in real life.

However from your previous posts about this matter, I think you will have a problem with probably every game that requires you to go fast for a prize, as there will something for you to blame about going slower than the faster people and that will never help you go faster.

They overhauled the tyre and suspension models between FM3 and FM4, the difference between them in that regard is significant.

On the tyre scrub thing, my bad I was not talking about time lost over the course of a lap, but rather that speed (as in vehicle velocity) doesn't not drop as much as it should once optimal slip angle has been exceeded.

Say going from 40mph to 20mph in about one second due to optimal slip angle being exceeded, is that not enough of a drop?