2010 F1 Belgian Grand Prix

[Sureboss]

Not at all. 6 races means there are still over 100 points available for a consistent performer.

 

[tibiquera]

For the Vettel / Button collision, the impression I had was that before the Bus Stop there's a small curve to the right, and when Button went passed it, he left a very small gap that perhaps suggested Vettel there was a way to go on the inside. Not trying to defend Vettel, but I don't think it was all due to poor judgement.

Also, is Alonso trying to push too hard? He's faster than Massa this season, but he's making more mistakes this year than he ever did in his career. Perhaps he's feeling the pressure of having a teammate in the same league as him (ok, maybe not the same, but pretty close)?

And what a shame for Rubens. He could've finished 5th this race. It's specially bad considering it's so rare for him to make a mistake.

 

[yeti]

Not at all. 6 races means there are still over 100 points available for a consistent performer.

Consistently 2nd or 3rd? - That's not consistent - that's 6 podiums?!

C.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Also, is Alonso trying to push too hard? He's faster than Massa this season, but he's making more mistakes this year than he ever did in his career. Perhaps he's feeling the pressure of having a teammate in the same league as him (ok, maybe not the same, but pretty close)?

It could be that he needs testing time to improve performance, which he can't do.

 

[The Outlaw]

Also, is Alonso trying to push too hard? He's faster than Massa this season, but he's making more mistakes this year than he ever did in his career. Perhaps he's feeling the pressure of having a teammate in the same league as him (ok, maybe not the same, but pretty close?.

TBH I don't think that's the issue one bit, as Alonso has clearly outclassed Massa nearly all season long. In most cases Alonso can push 8/10 and still match Massa without a sweat, and I'm sure in his head he feels Massa can't hold a candle to him either. With that said, I surely doubt pressure from his under performing team mate is what is causing him to make so many mistakes. If anything it is probably the fact that he is now driving for Ferrari (the most decorated team in F1 and in motorsports) and he feels it is his time to win, not to mention he probably feels a bit desperate (which may be the real issue for him atm) for revenge, as well as to get back in the hunt after his season at Mclaren and two wasted seasons at Renault. Maybe he just needs to adjust and needs to get comfortable (relax a bit) with his new situation in F1...?

His mistake today was completely unnecessary though. The track was fairly wet and he drove well over the curbing and put his rear tires onto the green run off area as he was trying to apply the throttle. A driver of his caliber should be fully aware of how risky that is, not to mention that he wasn't really carrying enough speed through the apex to even need to use that much track at the exit. So tbh I don't know what in the hell happened there, but it sure isn't typical stuff we've seen in the past from the 2x WDC I just hope he can pull himself together after this rather disastrous season so far, as making these kinds of uncalled for mistakes isn't what he has been known for in the past. He is a very smart and calculated guy (as well as being an absolute ruthless competitor on track) so I have faith that he will be able to analyze what he is doing wrong and keep these types of mistake to a minimum in the future...

 

[Seismica]

It'll be hilarious if Alonso screws up the next couple of races and Massa passes him in the standings (As long as he doesn't crash into Button ). I would love to see the look on their team principle's face after that

 

[The Outlaw]

Me to

 

[Ardius]

I would definitely like to see Massa win a race just for that effect. I was kind of hoping for a new winner today for this season. Hopefully we get one before the end as its kind of dull to only have the title contenders win races, Kubica perhaps as well? A Williams or Force India win or podium would be fantastic too, we had it last year with Fisichella, etc and the year before with Vettel. Maybe Monza will be that place again?

 

[tibiquera]

Something else I thought: aren't those intermediate tires getting a bit ridiculous? I mean, they do the job of full wet tires, but can't be used in light rain because of their quick degradation. I believe if they were more suitable for dryer conditions there would be more strategy choices you could make.

TBH I don't think that's the issue one bit, as Alonso has clearly outclassed Massa nearly all season long. In most cases Alonso can push 8/10 and still match Massa without a sweat, and I'm sure in his head he feels Massa can't hold a candle to him either. With that said, I surely doubt pressure from his under performing team mate is what is causing him to make so many mistakes.

Well, I'm not talking about performance only. Remember the reasons that made Alonso leave McLaren, he obviously seems to believe he deserves preferencial treatment. Now he goes to Ferrari with the label of best driver in the field with a driver who's driving there for years and even managed to outdo Raikkonen. I believe Alonso is trying to stablish himself as the de facto Ferrari driver, more for the team itself than to him.

If anything it is probably the fact that he is now driving for Ferrari (the most decorated team in F1 and in motorsports) and he feels it is his time to win, not to mention he probably feels a bit desperate (which may be the real issue for him atm) for revenge, as well as to get back in the hunt after his season at Mclaren and two wasted seasons at Renault. Maybe he just needs to adjust and needs to get comfortable (relax a bit) with his new situation in F1...?

That too.

 

[The Outlaw]

Something else I thought: aren't those intermediate tires getting a bit ridiculous? I mean, they do the job of full wet tires, but can't be used in light rain because of their quick degradation. I believe if they were more suitable for dryer conditions there would be more strategy choices you could make..

I agree. Although the current inters. make strategy choice interesting at times, I think they are a bit too extreme and unaffective due to the fact that they run such a fine line between degrading way too quickly if the track is only partially damp and not being anywhere near ideal if there is decent amount of rain coming down. With the small window the current intermediates work in, IMO the results become too dependent on luck and who happened to get lucky with the weather for a 10 minute window or whatever. Now if they could make them hold up a bitter better when the track starts to dry out that would be much better IMO.

Well, I'm not talking about performance only. Remember the reasons that made Alonso leave McLaren, he obviously seems to believe he deserves preferencial treatment. Now he goes to Ferrari with the label of best driver in the field with a driver who's driving there for years and even managed to outdo Raikkonen. I believe Alonso is trying to stablish himself as the de facto Ferrari driver, more for the team itself than to him.

I see what you're saying and I agree, although I think Alonso had already estabilished himself as the number 1/favored driver within Ferrari very early on in the season. This was clearly evident at Hockenheim where Massa had to concede position to Alonso due to team orders. I think atm he has all the power he needs within the team, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Ardius]

I'm a little confused, you guys claim the inters are too fine and degrade too much...yet drivers like Brundle, Davidson and Chandhok claim the inters are amazing and are quite effective in both wet and dry conditions.

In fact, Brundle's very words today were "full wet tyres are only effective if there is standing water", going on to say you would generally only choose inters for standard wet conditions.

If anything, I thought people would complain inters are too good as they make the tyre choice pretty straightforward.

It should be mentioned that Spa has an abrasive track surface too, which combined with conditions like yesterday where the track dried out quite quickly, meant the inters were burning out and wearing quickly. These aren't normal conditions and anywhere but Spa would be fine as the track would dry equally (for the most part). Problem is Spa has very dry parts and very wet parts, making any tyre choice compromised as the tyres can either struggle in the wet or overheat in the dry.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You took out Jenson, only got a drive-thru

A dirve-through is the standard penalty for causing an avoidable accident. Vettel clearly lost control; it's not as if he deiberately drove into Button.

 

[boiltheocean]

There once was a young German named Vettle
In the race he'd boil like a kettle
The rain would descend
Button's race he'd end
And number two driver he'd settle

 

[The Outlaw]

I'm a little confused, you guys claim the inters are too fine and degrade too much...yet drivers like Brundle, Davidson and Chandhok claim the inters are amazing and are quite effective in both wet and dry conditions.

In fact, Brundle's very words today were "full wet tyres are only effective if there is standing water", going on to say you would generally only choose inters for standard wet conditions.

If anything, I thought people would complain inters are too good as they make the tyre choice pretty straightforward.

It should be mentioned that Spa has an abrasive track surface too, which combined with conditions like yesterday where the track dried out quite quickly, meant the inters were burning out and wearing quickly. These aren't normal conditions and anywhere but Spa would be fine as the track would dry equally (for the most part). Problem is Spa has very dry parts and very wet parts, making any tyre choice compromised as the tyres can either struggle in the wet or overheat in the dry.

They aren't effective for long at all on a drying track. That was proven here at Spa and back at China as well.

There once was a young German named Vettle
In the race he'd boil like a kettle
The rain would descend
Button's race he'd end
And number two driver he'd settle

LMAO

 

[tibiquera]

I'm a little confused, you guys claim the inters are too fine and degrade too much...yet drivers like Brundle, Davidson and Chandhok claim the inters are amazing and are quite effective in both wet and dry conditions.

Yes, they are very effective on the dry, but five laps on the dry will ruin it. That's why drivers will only use it when it's very wet.

If anything, I thought people would complain inters are too good as they make the tyre choice pretty straightforward.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. I would prefer the tire choice not to be so straight-forward.

 

[kingdong4]

Vettel is so classes. Especially now that he's the second driver.

A dirve-through is the standard penalty for causing an avoidable accident. Vettel clearly lost control; it's not as if he deiberately drove into Button.

I beg to differ. He was driving quite violently in the wet, he clearly wanted to do it without alerting anybody!

 

[Ardius]

They aren't effective for long at all on a drying track. That was proven here at Spa and back at China as well.

Yes, they are very effective on the dry, but five laps on the dry will ruin it. That's why drivers will only use it when it's very wet.

Well thats how they should be surely?

Or are you asking for Bridgestone to make a tyre that can run in both conditions, further narrowing tyre choices? If they made an inter which could last several (like, 10 or more) dry laps..there would be no more tyre gambles. Slicks make up the difference as they can run in relatively greasy conditions up to a point, if a team uses up inters in dry conditions thats their problem.
Its quite rare for a race to feature such extensive wet and dry periods so its not such a big issue anyway.

In China, it wasn't inters weather in the first place...hence why Button won. Here, it was at times but the problem was more that the track had bits which were dry and bits which were wet.

 

[Dan360]

@Top of this post. Example: Belgian gp, final 'bus stop' chicane corners. All cars go off, along with barichello and alonso crash. This was lap 1 or 2, watch it back, and all drivers have different tires. A normal, unpredictable track or all drivers overestimating their grip levels? Im on the fence on this one.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

I beg to differ. He was driving quite violently in the wet, he clearly wanted to do it without alerting anybody!

So your saying Vettle wanted to take out Button? And on top of that he has such amazing car control he made it look like he lost control but in all actuality was still in control and hit him in such a way to only lightly damage his car but put Button out of the race.

Sorry but it looks like Vettle was hoping for a run on Button, but Button went defensive and as Vettle pulled out to take a normal line into the the corner he lost control in the greasy conditions. Or at least that's what it looked like to me.

 

[The Outlaw]

Well thats how they should be surely? .

The problem is (IMO, since you want an answer from me), Bridgestone doesn't supply a tire that either works or last properly in damp conditions or when light rain lingers for a good portion of the race. Currently the inters barely make 10 laps when the track is damp to slightly damp (proven @ Spa and China this year), let alone 5 laps when the track begins to dry up a bit, making the tire strategy call between slicks or inters too much of a crapshoot (IMO) if light rain is lingering in the immediate future.

With slicks you're playing with fire when the track is damp, and because of this they aren't really a practical option (or at least shouldn't be) when there is very slight rain throughout the race (the track surface is damp). Since there is nothing to fill this void that works even reasonable well, if there was a race where there was very light rain throughout the entirity, the teams have no choice but to run inters and come into the pits every 10 laps or so which is a bit ridiculous considering they are only alloted 4 inters per weekend

Or are you asking for Bridgestone to make a tyre that can run in both conditions, further narrowing tyre choices? If they made an inter which could last several (like, 10 or more) dry laps..there would be no more tyre gambles.

The problem is, they barely last 10 laps in damp conditions....which are the conditions they are designed/intended to be used in.

In China, it wasn't inters weather in the first place...hence why Button won. Here, it was at times but the problem was more that the track had bits which were dry and bits which were wet.

That's incorrect. ONLY during the first 1/3 of of the race @ China were intermediates unnecessary (slicks were best). thus Button won the race because he didn't come in for inters or tires at all for the first 1/3 of the race when it was unnecesary, unlike a lot of the other teams who did, thus he had gotten to the front by negating a needless pit stop/s. After his 1st pit stop when he came in for intermediate tires at around lap 20, Button (Mr. Smooth) only did 12 laps (under green flags) in moderately damp conditions before coming in for a final pit stop for another set of intermediates because his front tires were absolutely destroyed. If that doesn't prove my point regarding the poor durability of the inters, I don't know what does. And let me reiterate that the weather was quite damp during this stint.

Edit:

These aren't normal conditions and anywhere but Spa would be fine as the track would dry equally (for the most part). Problem is Spa has very dry parts and very wet parts, making any tyre choice compromised as the tyres can either struggle in the wet or overheat in the dry.

Not so. I suggest you go back and watch the opening laps from the Australian GP this year.

 

[Reims_]

Pssst... don't forget the [sarcasm] tags... makes the joke easier to spot.

Sigh.

I said an offhand comment that was clearly bait for Hamilton fans and even included a trollface picture which you responded to. I said another offhand comment about Hamilton that included a nervous emoticon and two posts later I even said it was a joke, then you respond with that quote!

This is partly why I don't support Hamilton, his fans. They are so one eyed and ultra defensive about their little hero to the point of blindness. Insert pic facepalm.jpg.

 

[MarkWebber]

Lol to the poem above. Couldn't hve described Vettel's situation any better, he has udles of talent, but is indeed to hot headed at times, can't overtake to save his life. Nobody remembers second but I think Mark's day couldn't have gone to plan any better than it did today, for him to realistically have any chance of winning the driver's championship he needs to first overcome his team mate Vettel. Today's result certainly helped that cause, extending his lead over him to 28 points. I don't forsee Mclaren running this good against Red Bull after Monza to season end.

 

[niky]

Before we jump all over Webber and Vettel for their lack of overtaking prowess... let's remember... there's indication that the downforce-dependent RBR packages are not that easy to overtake in...

I'm perfectly willing to believe that Vettel's snap was truly an accident... but he did take an awful lot of unnecessary risks after that drive through.

Then again... that's what makes him such a great driver. A never-say-die attitude. Maybe after another year in a top-tier car, he'll settle down a bit as it appears Hamilton has. (Note: appears: And this is in terms of on-track driving... not associated antics such as the hooning incident in Australia).

Sigh.

I said an offhand comment that was clearly bait for Hamilton fans and even included a trollface picture which you responded to. I said another offhand comment about Hamilton that included a nervous emoticon and two posts later I even said it was a joke, then you respond with that quote!

This is partly why I don't support Hamilton, his fans. They are so one eyed and ultra defensive about their little hero to the point of blindness. Insert pic facepalm.jpg.

I didn't realize it was a crime to give a needling post a patently straight-faced answer.

I got that the second one was a joke. Especially since I made one before it. I'm just stating that most people won't get it unless you make it more obvious...

 

[yeti]

On another note - what's the point in the grid positions? Massa was 2 metres ahead of his grid box yesterday - and didn't get any penalty for it?!

C.

 

[niky]

I doubt he was. Would've gotten a drive-through if so.

 

[lbsf1]

Has anyone noticed that if a ferrari is involved then the penalty is decided upon after the race and if it doesn't involve a ferrari the punishment is decided there and then.

 

[Anghammarad]

Has anyone noticed that if a ferrari is involved then the penalty is decided upon after the race and if it doesn't involve a ferrari the punishment is decided there and then.

No, since it's obviously not true.

 

[The Outlaw]

Has anyone noticed that if a ferrari is involved then the penalty is decided upon after the race and if it doesn't involve a ferrari the punishment is decided there and then.

Yea, tell that to Alonso

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Has anyone noticed that if a ferrari is involved then the penalty is decided upon after the race and if it doesn't involve a ferrari the punishment is decided there and then.

Are you referring to the team orders incident? Because Ferrari were fined at the race, and referred on to the WMSC.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I think he meant that Massa was two metres ahead of his grid line and wasn't punished for it. Brundle pointed it out as they lined up on the grid for the start.