2010 F1 Belgian Grand Prix

[Reims_]

Has anyone noticed that if a ferrari is involved then the penalty is decided upon after the race and if it doesn't involve a ferrari the punishment is decided there and then.

Let me guess: Hamilton fan

 

[The Outlaw]

Did anyone see when Hulkenburg went off track (for no acceptable reason) and managed to sneak by Sutil (who followed the rules and stayed on track) during the Barichello/Alonso incident on the first lap??? Hulkenburg cut the chicane in a real hurry (when he easily could have stayed on track) and didn't have a second thought about conceding position to Sutil. Even good ole Schumi let up when he got back on track and let Sutil regain his legal position

So we see yet another FIA screw up. I'm not even anything close to a steward by profession and this was one of the first things that I analyzed during and after the incident. This yet again shows you (seems there is an issue every race) the lack of competence by the FIA 👎

On another note - what's the point in the grid positions? Massa was 2 metres ahead of his grid box yesterday - and didn't get any penalty for it?!

C.

Martin Brundle (assuming you watched BBC's coverage) didn't know what he was talking about there. Massa was no more out of his start box than any other car on the grid, in fact he had it perfectly squared up in his box within the white boundary unlike half of the cars on the grid

 

[Famine]

Anyway,

Engines used
9 - Pedro de La Rosa (22) - BMW Sauber Ferrari
7 - Felipe Massa (7) - Ferrari
7 - Fernando Alonso (8) - Ferrari
6 - 19 drivers
5 - Robert Kubica (11) - Renault
5 - Vitaly Petrov (12) - Renault

Webber, Hamilton and Button all took a new, 6th engine for Spa (though Vettel dumped all the water out of Button's engine for him, so I doubt that'll run again). Vettel was already using his 6th engine.

De La Rosa can look forward to 6 more races of grid penalties. The Ferraris both used a new, 7th engine at Spa, so have to make each last 3 races (and they can reuse an old one at Abu Dhabi.

Did anyone see when Hulkenburg went off track (for no acceptable reason) and managed to sneak by Sutil (who followed the rules and stayed on track) during the Barichello/Alonso incident on the first lap??? Hulkenburg cut the chicane in a real hurry (when he easily could have stayed on track) and didn't have a second thought about conceding position to Sutil. Even good ole Schumi let up when he got back on track and let Sutil regain his legal position

Oddly, I noticed Button took the second part of the chicane properly and the drivers ahead of him - Webber, Kubica and Massa - who cut the second part let him past before La Source...

 

[yeti]

Martin Brundle (assuming you watched BBC's coverage) didn't know what he was talking about there. Massa was no more out of his start box than any other car on the grid, in fact he had it perfectly squared up in his box within the white boundary unlike half of the cars on the grid

Really? - I couldn't see - but assumed that Brundle knew what he was talking about...


If Buttons (brand new) engine is damaged by Vettel driving into the side of him - can he get a free replacement? Engines don't tend to like being cooked when a radiator blows... and it'd be unfair if he has to use an engine because of someone elses fault?!

C.

 

[The Outlaw]

Oddly, I noticed Button took the second part of the chicane properly and the drivers ahead of him - Webber, Kubica and Massa - who cut the second part let him past before La Source...

Vettel was the one in that group who got around Button, not Webber.

But yea, I spotted that as well. Button never got ahead of Kubica legally so Bob was fine though. From the looks of it, Massa decided to concede the position back to Button as soon as he got back on track, and Vettel as well (judging by his lazy entry/exit and look over his shoulder into La Source) after he comptemplated what happened and how he got around Button at the bus stop.

 

[Ardius]

Martin Brundle (assuming you watched BBC's coverage) didn't know what he was talking about there. Massa was no more out of his start box than any other car on the grid, in fact he had it perfectly squared up in his box within the white boundary unlike half of the cars on the grid

Brundle said Massa was forward of his grid position by quite a bit (he must have looked out of the commentary box window to see it). We never got a good angle of the start, so I can neither confirm or deny it.

 

[Sureboss]

I hate the angle they use for the starts. You never get any appreciation of acceleration. Superb race, but then again, it's Spa, you expect nothing less from one of the greatest tracks in the world.

 

[Alex.]

As much a Vettel fan as I am, I feel compelled to put this up.

 

[The Outlaw]

Brundle said Massa was forward of his grid position by quite a bit (he must have looked out of the commentary box window to see it). We never got a good angle of the start, so I can neither confirm or deny it.

To me it was evident that Massa's front tires were squared up on the front corner markings of his start box, as from the head on view we are given, the centerline of his front tires are just about at the corner of the "L" shaped markings which designates the front of the start box. Basically I didn't see his placement being any worse than the other drivers who were at the front of the grid, who's car placement relative to the "L" markings could be used as a comparable measure from a distance. This being the case from our vantage point, I don't see how Massa could have been 2m's ahead of his start box as Brundle claimed, as 2m's would have likely been much more evident, even from our point of view.

I also believe Whiting would have caught something so obvious, especially considering it was at the front of grid, or the team directors would have caught on and protested at the very least. With that said, I would definitely like to see further proof of Brundle's claims though. The only onboard footage from the start I've gotten/seen so far is from Webber, Button, Vettel, Kubica, Schumacher and Alonso's cars which of course don't show the placement of Massa's car at the start unfortunately.

 

[Bigbazz]

Was an awesome race as expected, i was annoyed at vettel up to his usual crashing into other people antics, he did a good job of putting button out of the championship, as good as he is he really needs to chill out sometimes.

Hamilton was amazing as usual, alonso was disapointing as usual for this season. Mark webber is doing a great job picking up the good points, i didnt expect him to win but second is a great result, he should be thanking his teammate.


Prior to this race i did a full GP length race at Spa on Rfactor in FSone2009 ^^. Mark Webbers car (driven by me) came first, button second, hamilton 3rd. All i have to say is what an amazing track it is, so enjoyable, one of my favourites, i hope more than anything that it makes it into GT5

 

[Lizard]

As much a Vettel fan as I am, I feel compelled to put this up.

 

[yeti]

To me it was evident that Massa's front tires were squared up on the front corner markings of his start box, as from the head on view we are given, the centerline of his front tires are just about at the corner of the "L" shaped markings which designates the front of the start box. Basically I didn't see his placement being any worse than the other drivers who were at the front of the grid, who's car placement relative to the "L" markings could be used as a comparable measure from a distance. This being the case from our vantage point, I don't see how Massa could have been 2m's ahead of his start box as Brundle claimed, as 2m's would have likely been much more evident, even from our point of view.

I also believe Whiting would have caught something so obvious, especially considering it was at the front of grid, or the team directors would have caught on and protested at the very least. With that said, I would definitely like to see further proof of Brundle's claims though. The only onboard footage from the start I've gotten/seen so far is from Webber, Button, Vettel, Kubica, Schumacher and Alonso's cars which of course don't show the placement of Massa's car at the start unfortunately.

Wait - So you're saying from a view where we can barely see Massa's car - he looked like he was well in his pit box?! Really?!

C.

 

[niky]

Wait - So you're saying from a view where we can barely see Massa's car - he looked like he was well in his pit box?! Really?!

C.

Start box.

Seeing as how absolutely nobody else is mentioning it, I think we can put the idea down to Martin Brundle's fevered imagination.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

Was an awesome race as expected, i was annoyed at vettel up to his usual crashing into other people antics, he did a good job of putting button out of the championship, as good as he is he really needs to chill out sometimes.

Hamilton was amazing as usual, alonso was disapointing as usual for this season. Mark webber is doing a great job picking up the good points, i didnt expect him to win but second is a great result, he should be thanking his teammate.


Prior to this race i did a full GP length race at Spa on Rfactor in FSone2009 ^^. Mark Webbers car (driven by me) came first, button second, hamilton 3rd. All i have to say is what an amazing track it is, so enjoyable, one of my favourites, i hope more than anything that it makes it into GT5

👍 You read my mind! Waiting for F1 2010 to arrive at the store

 

[yeti]

Start box.

Seeing as how absolutely nobody else is mentioning it, I think we can put the idea down to Martin Brundle's fevered imagination.

He doesn't usually make mistakes though - that's normally left to his sidekick Legard...

C.

 

[niky]

Seeing as I watch on Star, I can't comment, but none of the blogs or newsites has even picked up on this. He was probably mistaken.

Funny:

Formula1blog regarding Vettel's penalty:

http://www.formula1blog.com/2010/08/30/defending-vettel-was-a-penalty-really-needed/

Has the criticism been over the top? Does the F1 fan base just need a new Schumacher to hate? Is Sebastian Vettel the Anakin Skywalker of the F1 paddock? A terrific talent who has been thrust to the dark side due to some mistakes and will now take up the mantel of the aggressive, hated German driver picking up where Schumacher left off?

And:

Are we to a stage of giving a penalty to every driver involved in a incident where he ruins the race for another driver? Button and Vettel were battling for the position. This wasn’t lapped traffic. Button braked where Vettel wasn’t expecting it and Vettel made a mistake. It was Vettel’s fault, no question. I just feel a penalty for unintentionally wrecking someone is over the top. This is racing.

Thoughts?

 

[livemusic]

Yeah, I don't think the drive-through was necessary. It was an unintentional mistake.

But Vettel has been doing a lot of mistakes lately. If I recall correctly it started with that overtaking maneuver he did on Webber.

 

[Famine]

Vettel is an absolute liability out there. I wouldn't want to be an F1 driver in front of him. No wonder he's lead so often - they let him get out there so he doesn't smash into them when "passing".

That said, I don't think his drive-through was merited - he switched to the outside line and was instantly a passenger in the collision. I did swear at him though. A lot.

This.

 

[niky]

No wonder he's lead so often - they let him get out there so he doesn't smash into them when "passing".

 

[Bigbazz]

My view on vettels punishment is this. He was dangerously close behind Button at the braking zone, he lost control of his car, he should know that he doesnt have the same downforce when hes getting a tow, and the car will be less stable under braking, and it was at the end of the day quite careless driving.

Next point, he managed to take button out of the race by his own bad judgement (something he often messes up on) but he himself remained in the race, the reality is he should have retired there but was lucky that his car didnt take any severe damage.

That accident had a major impact on the race result and on the championship standings, though he himself did not finish in the points (due to yet another incident) he was still able to continue from the button crash with a good chance of scoring points, despite being involved in an accident where his car speared another cars out of the race.

These cars are going extremely fast and it is still immensly dangerous when things like this happen, hopefully the penalty will make him be a bit more careful in the future.


: My opinion on vettel overal is that, i like him and i dont think he means bad, he is young and under a lot of pressure to perform, he has the best car and wants to take opportunity to make the most of it. He is lacking in experience at this top level and mistakes will happen, he is clearly immensly talented and it is likely that he will become a world champion some day, but i dont think he is ready for it.

This year i'm hoping for mark to win, he's worked hard and been through the ranks of slower teams (like jenson) and now he finds himself in the most competitive car, he needs to grab the opportunity while its here. he is an awesomely talented driver and seems like a great bloke.


As for schumacher : He had a fairly great race (14 positions up) but he's a shadow of his former self on pure raw speed, however much he wants to kid himself that he still has it, his teammate is always chipping him away. Perhaps next year with a car that suits him better he will do well, but i cant see him competing when it comes down to nailing down the qualifying. Drivers like Hamilton, alonso, webber, vettel, kubica are just right on the ball, sharp as a chisel and schumacher is too old to measure up.

Jenson button, he had a good race until he got taken out, theres a good chance he would have finished second. Im disapointed with him this year, the car is never good enough for him and he often pulls out quite average times, he is an amazing racer but his qualifying leaves something to be desired. A few more wet races he needs if he's ever hoping to win this championship. That said i think he is a great champion, and i think he's just enjoying himself this year, ever the relaxed racer.

 

[Seismica]

Vettel's mistake was a lapse of judgement. Let's hope he learns from his mistake and moves on. His style of overtaking is dangerous at times.

It did warrant a drive-through and he served his punishment...

As for that quote above, "Button braked where he didn't expect him to", that's laughable. Button took the inside to defend, and naturally he had to break earlier to avoid going wide for the final corner and having to concede the position. The "He braked earlier than I expected" excuse isn't valid in this situation I feel. When you're off the racing line you brake earlier, it's quite simple. Like I said, he'll learn from this mistake (Hopefully).

 

[L.Hamilton]

Amazing race, I enjoyed it almost as much as the China gp. Was great to see a flash of the old Schumi. Hamilton was on a league of his own, he`s unstoppable on tracks like this. I feel sorry for Button and Vettel, in the case of Vettel I hope he learns from this...

 

[Terronium-12]

I've been replaying the situation in mind since yesterday afternoon, and I've been of two minds about it: On one hand, right when the collision occurred I instantly blamed Vettel as it was his own fault, and he never fails to buckle under pressure. On the other hand I considered the track conditions at the time of the incident and considered perhaps he lost grip due to some reason other than that to do with aerodynamics (namely the greasy spots and the tires).

While I still believe the accident was purely his own fault, because again, he does not handle well whatsoever under pressure of any kind it seems (whether it be maintaining his position, attempting to overtake, or even once....just going in to the pit area). He has great pace, and is quick when he has clear headroom....but that's about as far as I'll go with the compliments concerning Vettel. He needs to get his head from between his legs, take the chip off of his shoulder or something...because relying only on raw pace/speed won't get him anywhere.

 

[The Outlaw]

Vettel's mistake was a lapse of judgement. Let's hope he learns from his mistake and moves on. His style of overtaking is dangerous at times.

It did warrant a drive-through and he served his punishment...

As for that quote above, "Button braked where he didn't expect him to", that's laughable. Button took the inside to defend, and naturally he had to break earlier to avoid going wide for the final corner and having to concede the position. The "He braked earlier than I expected" excuse isn't valid in this situation I feel. When you're off the racing line you brake earlier, it's quite simple. Like I said, he'll learn from this mistake (Hopefully).

The thing is, Button really didn't hold the inside line as soon as they entered the braking zone, which helped to provoke an unsafe situation. Had Button held the inside line and not suddenly swerved over roughly 5 feet (close to the center of the track) to block Vettel, Sebastian would have safely been able to take the outside line which he was intending to do prior to Button's sudden swerve to the left. But because of Button's sudden swerve to the center of the track Vettel was already caught out (too late to react properly) as the track surface wouldn't allow anymore brake or steering input to avoid Button's car who within a tenth of a second went from the far right of the track to the center as soon as they hit the braking zone.

I'm sure you had the "Button can't do anything wrong" shades on when that happened though lol

 

[725]

It was a good race this weekend. Hamilton very impressive shame about Button I think he was on for a definate second. I don't see how button suddenly swerved it was more the face the Vettel's car seemed to snap back does to excessive turning and changeable conditions. Good race and nice to some F1 after what felt like quite a long break

 

[Seismica]

I'm sure you had the "Button can't do anything wrong" shades on when that happened though lol

Button wasn't on the racing line which means he was defending his position. There was no room down the inside. There was no sudden swerve, what you saw was the right turn/kink in the straight before the bus stop, meaning the gap between button and the edge of the track increased when the track direction changed.

And to be honest, when Button damaged his front wing it was his own fault for misjudging the braking distance when trying to overtake Kubica. But then again, almost everyone did, half the field went wide at the bus stop on that lap, because the track was damp at that point. So your last point, which was clearly a dig at me personally, is incorrect.

 

[Ardius]

The thing is, Button really didn't hold the inside line as soon as they entered the braking zone, which helped to provoke an unsafe situation. Had Button held the inside line and not suddenly swerved over roughly 5 feet (close to the center of the track) to block Vettel, Sebastian would have safely been able to take the outside line which he was intending to do prior to Button's sudden swerve to the left. But because of Button's sudden swerve to the center of the track Vettel was already caught out (too late to react properly) as the track surface wouldn't allow anymore brake or steering input to avoid Button's car who within a tenth of a second went from the far right of the track to the center as soon as they hit the braking zone.

I'm sure you had the "Button can't do anything wrong" shades on when that happened though lol

Edit: In fact, scrap that. I've revisited the incident and Button doesn't move at all. He never alters his line coming off the previous apex. Vettel assumed the small gap on the inside was opening faster than it was.
Button never swerved.

 

[The Outlaw]

Button wasn't on the racing line which means he was defending his position.

Although legal, this doesn't change the fact that his slight swerve to the right and then left helped provoke the incident. Vettel could have definitely played it safer/smarter but Button's forced the issue a bit too much and shouldn't be too suprised of the outcome.

There was no room down the inside. There was no sudden swerve, what you saw was the right turn/kink in the straight before the bus stop, meaning the gap between button and the edge of the track direction changed..

This is partly the case, but Button swerved to the right as he hit the kink and then went back slightly the other way torward the center. Although only slighty, at those speeds on that narrow section of the track, slight changes in direction can create the types of incident we saw.

 

[Ardius]

This is partly the case, but Button swerved to the right as he hit the kink and then went back slightly the other way torward the center. Although only slight, at those speeds on that narrow section of the track, slight changes in direction can create the types of incidents we saw.

No, he doesn't. The only evidence I can find of this is on Vettel's onboard, which looks more like a trick of motion as Vettel is jinking left and right so much, it makes it appear Button moved in relation to the edge of the track. If you watch the track cameras, Button doesn't move at all.

 

[The Outlaw]

No, he doesn't. The only evidence I can find of this is on Vettel's onboard, which looks more like a trick of motion as Vettel is jinking left and right so much, it makes it appear Button moved in relation to the edge of the track. If you watch the track cameras, Button doesn't move at all.

That's your opinion. And we already know Button moved in relation to the track edge through the kink and as it straightened out, so that proves nothing.

It's terms of judgement it's your racing eye vs. mine. Who's to say which one is better...