2010 F1 Belgian Grand Prix

[astrosdude91]

@SebVettel, grrr!!! You took out Jenson, only got a drive-thru and you took out Liuzzi! The stewards day is not complete....

The stewards are done with Vettel for this race. Neither one was Vettel's fault, and the incident with Button was nobodys fault. Vettel just lost control of his car is all. He couldn't really do anything to prevent the collision. If anything, the stewards were too harsh with giving Seb the drive through penilty.

 

[Dragonistic]

Seb Vettel whas the looser today

I think it's fair to say Button was the loser today, he did nothing wrong and got clean taken off the road!

Decent race to watch though thanks to the weather for much of that.

 

[Matti_Dude]

The stewards are done with Vettel for this race. Neither one was Vettel's fault, and the incident with Button was nobodys fault. Vettel just lost control of his car is all. He couldn't really do anything to prevent the collision. If anything, the stewards were too harsh with giving Seb the drive through penilty.

It depends how the stewards so it. The track could have been slightly damp there which would have taken the blame off his shoulders. But if it was dry, then he was being too aggressive trying to switch to the outside of the chicane and he lost control.

 

[Alex.]

The top three all made mistakes today and got away with them. Hamilton understeered off into the gravel, Webber blew the start and Kubica lost second place when he hit, literally, his pit box.

Still that's better that Vettel managed. I wonder who he's going to take out of a race next? Maybe Alonso or Hamilton, or perhaps he's trying for the entire field by the end of the season.

Vettel made 1 mistake, what if when Hamilton missed his brake point there was a car there? Different story. Vettel has hit by his own fault Webber and Button this season, so now all of a sudden he's taking out the entire field? Webber hit about 56 people in Australia, Hamilton has binned it 2 or 3 times on the last lap this year, Kobayashi has hit plenty of people. Vettel has had 2 incidents at the front, which is why he is all of a sudden the demolition boy of the grid in peoples eyes. I think there is an element of bias coming into posts like this. Yes I am a Vettel fan but I dislike Hamilton and Button, and I don't sit there and say Hamilton can't keep it on the road because he went off a couple of times this race and has crashed a couple of times this season.

 

[Ardius]

I only recall Kobayashi hitting one driver in his career which was his fault. I wish people would stop trying to Sato-ise him.

And Vettel has hit Sutil and Kubica too. 4 incidents is more than enough to start questioning his ability to race with decent racing room. If you don't understand why people think Vettel is a bit of a destruction derby when overtaking, I guess you can't look past your own fandom.
Webber is just as destructive of course.

Hamilton is arguably the most successful of the 3, though he has had his bad times too.

 

[Alex.]

Look at Alonso too, no one is saying 'I wonder which corner he will crash at next race, or which corner will Massa go off on'. Wasn't the Kubica incident last season?

 

[Andy GT]

Liuzzi inherits final point after Alguersuari penalty

 

[Ardius]

Look at Alonso too, no one is saying 'I wonder which corner he will crash at next race, or which corner will Massa go off on'. Wasn't the Kubica incident last season?

Indeed it was, does age make it less relevant?

I think you will find people have been questioning Alonso's ability (and Massa's in wet weather). In fact, today the BBC was questioning Alonso's form so far after he crashed out pushing too hard.
I certainly have been critical of Alonso this season, his form has been dreadful.

Vettel has had a habit of crashing into rivals. Maybe you would have a point if people had been doing this after the Webber incident or even the Kubica incident, but they haven't, now they are starting to do it after 4 seperate incidents.....do you deny Vettel has crashed into other drivers more frequently than normal?

 

[Alex.]

The jist of it is Vettel invites the criticism with his incidents but 'who's he going to take out next race' is a little over the top.

 

[Seismica]

Vettel Vettel Vettel...

Firstly, learn how to overtake. Button was too far forward, and he had the inside line, you moved over too late and lost control of your car.

Then, you overtook Liuzzi. The entry to the Bus stop chicane is very tight and you gave him no room at all, he had already started turning in when you passed. You overtake like a Kamikaze dive-bomber, with no regard for the consequences to you or the other driver in question. You got a puncture for this move and you deserved that as your punishment.

Then, a lap down, you decided to try and move back up the field after the race restart. You were a back-marker, and you were arrogant enough to start overtaking people challenging for points positions. Kobayashi was challenging for 7th place, you overtook him, forced him wide at the bus stop with 2-3 laps to go and cost him a lot of time and any chance of gaining a position. Well done.

Learn how to race Sebastien.

David Coulthard on the Barrichello/Alonso collision:

Ferrari are used to making strong cars because Michael used to run into people a lot.

 

[Ardius]

The jist of it is Vettel invites the criticism with his incidents but 'who's he going to take out next race' is a little over the top.

Maybe, but not surprising.

Anyway, a good race. The title hunt is still going strong, would have been nice if Alonso, Vettel and Button hadn't been out of the points though as I would prefer a closer fight. Guess we will have to hope for bad races for Hamilton and Webber next. (Ideally, we want Button and Alonso to come strong for a close 5-way).

Other than that, not much to say really. Schumacher has to be praised (for once this season!) for a great comeback drive. Though I'm a little cautious in giving him too much praise as the car he's in really should have finished where it did anyway, but all the same he had a great start and made the most of the conditions.
Force India seemed quite strong though didn't get close to the podium like last time. Renault too. Another great drive for Kobayashi and Petrov.

 

[homeforsummer]

The jist of it is Vettel invites the criticism with his incidents but 'who's he going to take out next race' is a little over the top.

Not really. His racecraft leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. Yes, it was a wet track today but he made a pretty basic error (sharp steering inputs on a very wet track? Really smart) and took out another driver because of it.

I've always quite liked Vettel but he runs out of talent far too often and it's making me question his ability. It's why Webber is definitely the top driver in the team. He may not be as fast outright but his racecraft is significantly better than Seb's.

Good drive from Hamilton. Made it look pretty easy, despite the slide into the gravel when the rain picked up.

 

[Alex.]

Niether of them can overtake well, or at least aren't known for their overtaking prowess. Webber's moves on Hamilton in Australia resulted in both of them in the gravel and the 2nd resulted in Hamilton's retirement. They can both sit behind a fast car infront and keep up no problem, they can both run a race from pole to flag without a problem, but Vettel has a habit of running into guys at the front, 4 times over the last 2 years. Webber tends to think better of risky moves.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Vettel Vettel Vettel...

Firstly, learn how to overtake. Button was too far forward, and he had the inside line, you moved over too late and lost control of your car.

Then, you overtook Liuzzi. The entry to the Bus stop chicane is very tight and you gave him no room at all, he had already started turning in when you passed. You overtake like a Kamikaze dive-bomber, with no regard for the consequences to you or the other driver in question. You got a puncture for this move and you deserved that as your punishment.

Then, a lap down, you decided to try and move back up the field after the race restart. You were a back-marker, and you were arrogant enough to start overtaking people challenging for points positions. Kobayashi was challenging for 7th place, you overtook him, forced him wide at the bus stop with 2-3 laps to go and cost him a lot of time and any chance of gaining a position. Well done.

Learn how to race Sebastien.

If I ever saw a biased post that would be one. The incident with Button was partly his fault because he was being too aggressive, but there was nothing wrong with him trying to overtake around the outside of Button at the bus stop chicane, it has been done. Alonso did it to Liuzzi I believe and ran him out of road at the exit as well.

The incident with Liuzzie was completely Liuzzi's fault. He was not turning into the corner when Vettel was side by side there were both braking for the corner still. Liuzzi tried cutting in behind Vettel so that he could get a better run out of the second part of the chicane but instead damaged his own front wing and punctured Vettel's tires.

Also, why shouldn't he be able to unlap himself? It just shows that he didn't want to give up. Drivers are never going to take kindly to being overtaken, even if it is just somebody unlapping themself so no wonder why Vettel had to be a bit more aggressive to pass Kobayashi. At the end of the day it wasn't Vettel's day and nothing could go right for him. I'm not a fan of Vettel's but you're just being overly critical. It's not like you could do any better than him is it.

 

[Alex.]

Vettel Vettel Vettel...

Firstly, learn how to overtake. Button was too far forward, and he had the inside line, you moved over too late and lost control of your car.

Then, you overtook Liuzzi. The entry to the Bus stop chicane is very tight and you gave him no room at all, he had already started turning in when you passed. You overtake like a Kamikaze dive-bomber, with no regard for the consequences to you or the other driver in question. You got a puncture for this move and you deserved that as your punishment.

Then, a lap down, you decided to try and move back up the field after the race restart. You were a back-marker, and you were arrogant enough to start overtaking people challenging for points positions. Kobayashi was challenging for 7th place, you overtook him, forced him wide at the bus stop with 2-3 laps to go and cost him a lot of time and any chance of gaining a position. Well done.

Learn how to race Sebastien.

Hamilton would've done the same, Massa and Alonso would have done the same. I don't know who you support if anyone but the chances are they would have unlapped themselves. How can you be 'arrogant enough to ver take cars challenging for points'? What so Vettel should just give up for the last 15 laps with chances of rain and any kind of mix up on the cards? If you do that, sit back to coast to the end, then you need to learn to race. He was doing quite the opposite, he was racing.

 

[Seismica]

Hamilton would've done the same, Massa and Alonso would have done the same. I don't know who you support if anyone but the chances are they would have unlapped themselves. How can you be 'arrogant enough to ver take cars challenging for points'? What so Vettel should just give up for the last 15 laps with chances of rain and any kind of mix up on the cards? If you do that, sit back to coast to the end, then you need to learn to race. He was doing quite the opposite, he was racing.

Hamilton would have done the same... in 2008.

I have every faith Vettel will improve, but today he was atrocious. 3 laps to go and he was unlapping himself? Seriously?

 

[The Outlaw]

Except the part where you then said the same thing in defence of your interpretation.

It is not hypocritical for a man who might have benefitted from team orders when they were legal to point out that a team issuing team orders when they are not legal have broken the rules.



Exactly that. Your interpretation. You've presumed to know what an elderly German-speaking man thinks from some English words which say nothing of the sort.



Let's revisit the part where you said daan hadn't read "Lauda's exact words" because he didn't ascribe to the interpretation you'd invented that wasn't contained in Lauda's exact words.



I haven't made any conclusion at all. You have. You've concluded that you know what an elderly German-speaking man thinks from some words in English that you cite the exactness of - then ignore.



Yay, dictionary troll.

Nowhere in Lauda's exact words did he say what Ferrari did was morally wrong. I can requote you saying both of those things as points to attack other members, if I thought you'd pay any attention.



Who's saying he passed judgement on anything? Only you, it appears.

You're off your rocker.

If you must win with your unwinnable defense to your side of the argument (by ignoring everything Lauda said which is in black and white), then then I hand you your crown sir

 

[Ardius]

Niether of them can overtake well, or at least aren't known for their overtaking prowess. Webber's moves on Hamilton in Australia resulted in both of them in the gravel and the 2nd resulted in Hamilton's retirement. They can both sit behind a fast car infront and keep up no problem, they can both run a race from pole to flag without a problem, but Vettel has a habit of running into guys at the front, 4 times over the last 2 years. Webber tends to think better of risky moves.

Webber's problem is being way too aggressive when he doesn't need to be, rather than not being a great overtaker. Webber can pull some great overtakes on a good day but he tends to go for spaces which aren't there and try to defend lost positions. (or sometimes, just makes bonehead mistakes like Australia into Hamilton).

For once, this incident wasn't Vettel displaying poor racecraft, but simply poor car control (or lack of respect for the conditions). He didn't intend to do what he did, unlike against Kubica, Webber and Sutil where he did choose an action which was wrong.

 

[homeforsummer]

The incident with Button was partly his fault because he was being too aggressive, but there was nothing wrong with him trying to overtake around the outside of Button at the bus stop chicane, it has been done.

The incident with Button was entirely Vettel's fault, there's no "partly" about it. Yes, an overtake on the outside is possible there (if you're very good on the brakes) but Vettel showed a complete lack of forward planning and very little understanding for the conditions. Popping out from behind a car (off the racing line too, seeing as Button was on the defensive inside line) is a recipe for disaster in the rain, especially if you move agressively like Vettel did.

Hamilton would've done the same, Massa and Alonso would have done the same.

They would have done similar, not the same. None of those drivers would have spun off the road attempting to pass because they all would have been sitting on the racing line rather than trying to dive out at the last minute.

For once, this incident wasn't Vettel displaying poor racecraft, but simply poor car control (or lack of respect for the conditions)

I'd argue that completely misjudging the conditions is poor racecraft, given how important a knowledge of how the car is behaving is to going quickly...

 

[Alex.]

Remind me again what race did Vettel and Sutil collide?

 

[Famine]

You're off your rocker.

If you cannot converse without insults, I suggest you stop conversing.

If you must win with your unwinnable defense to your side of the argument (by ignoring everything Lauda said which is in black and white), then then I hand you your crown sir

You cited "Lauda's exact words" then eschewed them in favour of your interpretation. Lauda has not said what you ascribe to him. Stop pretending otherwise and that you and you alone have sufficient insight into a retired, German-speaking formula one driver's mind to say exactly what he means.

 

[Ardius]

Remind me again what race did Vettel and Sutil collide?

Vettel rammed Sutil off trying to overtake him at Silverstone, blotting his otherwise excellent copybook for that race when he was scything through the field.

I'd argue that completely misjudging the conditions is poor racecraft, given how important a knowledge of how the car is behaving is to going quickly...

I'm not sure it was poor conditions and his misjudgement that caused it though. It could have simply been poor car control on its own, he did move very aggressively to the left and appeared to lose it instantly.
A bit of a gray area, but in any case, I was referring to how he didn't crash due to misjudging other drivers position and ability, but simply through his own bad driving. (rather than bad racing.)

 

[Alex.]

Ah that will explain why, I was at the race so didn't see it on TV.

 

[Prince.M5]

From my point of view, Vettel was a bit too aggresive with Button. I think he just made a little like rookie mistake there. He was slipstreaming Button far too close, approaching the chicane and moved over to the left a little too late. Plus, there was a bit of a drops of rain on the track so I'd say it's just a racing incident. Honestly, I like to see Vettel made mistakes like this because the more he made a mistake, the more he learns it. As long as he still learns it that is... I felt sorry for Button though. 2 DNFs in a row here doesn't sound tasty.

So Lewis Hamilton pretty much dominated the whole race, Webber's poor start ruined his chance but 2nd place was fine it seems. A remarkable job by Kubica getting the Renault safely into the podium steps eventhough 2nd could have been his. That's racing and congratulations to all, head on to Monza...

 

[Tired Tyres]

Vettel made 1 mistake, what if when Hamilton missed his brake point there was a car there? Different story. Vettel has hit by his own fault Webber and Button this season, so now all of a sudden he's taking out the entire field? Webber hit about 56 people in Australia, Hamilton has binned it 2 or 3 times on the last lap this year, Kobayashi has hit plenty of people. Vettel has had 2 incidents at the front, which is why he is all of a sudden the demolition boy of the grid in peoples eyes. I think there is an element of bias coming into posts like this. Yes I am a Vettel fan but I dislike Hamilton and Button, and I don't sit there and say Hamilton can't keep it on the road because he went off a couple of times this race and has crashed a couple of times this season.

Where is the bias in my post? Nowhere at all unless I'm not allowed to criticize Vettel for making mistakes that is. His impetuosity gets him into trouble. He's a bloody good race driver but he lets himself down badly at times.

 

[Seismica]

Where is the bias in my post? Nowhere at all unless I'm not allowed to criticize Vettel for making mistakes that is. His impetuosity gets him into trouble. He's a bloody good race driver but he lets himself down badly at times.

His driving cost other people too. Button. Kobayashi lost the opportunity to gain extra points. Liuzzi lost out, though I do see that it wasn't entirely Vettel's fault, that one was just a racing incident, both drivers suffered. Perhaps Sebastian more because Liuzzi would have had to pit for wet tyres a couple of laps later anyway.

 

[astrosdude91]

There is a crazy debate royale going on in this thread! Two seperate debates going on at the same time!

 

[DK]

I love wet races, they always cause a kerfuffle. Shame about Rubens, what a crappy way to commemorate your 300th GP.

 

[spyrrari]

I think it's fair to say Button was the loser today, he did nothing wrong and got clean taken off the road!

Decent race to watch though thanks to the weather for much of that.

Yes Button lost...but Vettel is a looooossser...


spy.

 

[yeti]

Watched the race on time-phase - it's just finished for me.

1) Lewis - legendary - although a shade lucky when it got a bit wet there?!

2) Vettel = Dangerous - someone needs to have a word... if he'd've been half a metre ahead - he would've been hitting the side of Jensons cockpit - mark my words - he's close to killing someone soon with his inability to manage his temprement. (No wonder they call him "Little Schumi")

3) Webber = Lucky - but Kubica made a crucial mistake and cost himself a place.

4) Alonso = Loser - It's not a secret, I don't like Alonso - and he made poor judgement after poor judgement - and then ended up losing it.

5) Button = Unlucky - taken out by a dangerous driver who should really have been blackflagged for attempting a completely dangerous and "never gonna happen" overtake which resulted in him being taken out.

6) Sutil - Great race well done.

7) Rosberg - nice work for sneaking Schumacher at the end excellent.

8) Kobo continues his teaching and takes some more points with a great drive.

9) Rubens? Oh dear - not very good today!

And my last comment - 2 horse race?

C.