2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

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I know is inherently Ferrari's fault, but when people come and say "the car didn't perform well, Alonso was better, bla bla bla", it kinda sucks, specially for Massa as his talent go unacknowledged. Alonso did not perform as he was asked and expected to, people saw him as a strong contender for the title, yet he never showed such skills, even with a car that was indeed competitive (Massa clearly showed us that over the last few races).

Sure, Alonso never showed such skills. He was only leading the championship halfway through the season while Massa was down in 14th place with 23 points. The F2012 was competitive enough to fight for podium positions. But clearly lacked pace in the dry to consistently compete for wins. As good as Massa drove these last few races, he was still miles away from being able to win in that car. And was even further away from qualifying on the front row.

So while the F2012 may have been "competitive" most of the season (at least in Alonso's hands) it most certainly was not a championship winning car. Imagine if McLaren didn't shoot themselves in the foot this season. The championship fight would have been between Vettel and Hamilton. Alonso would have been a long shot a best. Ferrari's engineers were the only ones who did not perform as expected this season.
 
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Sure, Alonso never showed such skills. He was only leading the championship halfway through the season while Massa was down in 14th place with 23 points. The F2012 was competitive enough to fight for podium positions. But clearly lacked pace in the dry to consistently compete for wins. As good as Massa drove these last few races, he was still miles away from being able to win in that car. And was even further away from qualifying on the front row.

it's hard to win when Alonso is faster then you. :rolleyes:
 
I think it's just about time for a break from this thread :ouch:

They wont, most of my gripes with Alonso have been exactly that.

I know is inherently Ferrari's fault, but when people come and say "the car didn't perform well, Alonso was better, bla bla bla", it kinda sucks, specially for Massa as his talent go unacknowledged. Alonso did not perform as he was asked and expected to, people saw him as a strong contender for the title, yet he never showed such skills, even with a car that was indeed competitive (Massa clearly showed us that over the last few races).


Get real. Even Massa's performance wasn't nearly enough to match the Mclaren's or Red Bull's on pure pace. So on what basis could you expect Alonso in the Ferrari to legitmately have the pace to contend for the Championship??

And I agree, Webber was all over the place in Interlagos, he was having a Strong race in Austin until he had to retire, but despite this, is nice to see that at least Red Bull/McLaren let their drivers compete with each other, at some point Interlagos Webber let Vettel pass blatantly, but they still let them compete with each other when the situation comes, just as McLaren would, and both of them don't let the First driver-second driver gap go too far, which is pretty good for both drivers morale. Ferrari on the other hand ...

So, which one is it.... "Webber let Vettel pass blatantly" or "they still let them compete with each other when the situation comes" :lol:

And yea, Webber was all over the place in Interlagos yet he still beat Vettel in the race. Yet Alonso really failed as a Championship contender for being slightly slower than Massa in maybe 3-4 races over the 20 race season?? Do you not realize how often Vettel got out performed by his team mate as well?

, and both of them don't let the First driver-second driver gap go too far, which is pretty good for both drivers morale. Ferrari on the other hand ...

It's always Ferrari/Alonso's fault isn't? :lol: Massa's lucky to even have a seat at Ferrari at the moment, given his overall performance over the past 3 years.


I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make, of course we're going to use the media regarding that point, that was his entire point, Ferrari or Fernando will not publicly state that Massa was the better driver in the last two races.

Nice try, but no, that was never previously said nor legitmately implied by either you or avens. I suggest you look up the word "acknowledgment" ... because it can shown in a very broad way. The whole world doesn't need to be notified for it to be considered acknowledgment. In my eyes, it would be more important to acknowledge his superior performance from a man to man conversation (ex. from Luca D. to Massa).

With that said (yes I'm drifting off a bit here), I find it funny that Ferrari gets called out for not publicly acknowledging Felipe's superior performance over the past 2 races or so...I think it's a simply a case of people wanting to see it spread in Alonso's face for their satisfaction...that's all.


Whether he or you thinks they should is irrelevant and of course technically that statement can't be a fact until the end of eternity, there is always time for them to admit it. But he doesn't think they will. Simple as that

But again I'm still not really sure why you decided to pick up on that comment in the first place
.

Because it's a statement that's nearly impossible to prove...so why the F say something that questions their integrity, when there isn't a legitimate leg to stand on!?


All it is is the usual anti-Ferrari troll bate 👎
 
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Sure, Alonso never showed such skills. He was only leading the championship halfway through the season while Massa was down in 14th place with 23 points. The F2012 was competitive enough to fight for podium positions. But clearly lacked pace in the dry to consistently compete for wins. As good as Massa drove these last few races, he was still miles away from being able to win in that car. And was even further away from qualifying on the front row.

Massa could have won Interlagos convincingly if he didn't team play. You can already tell that by watching the race while looking at the numbers, and that's including Button would take risks in order to not get passed.

Not sure about Texas because I didn't pay as much attention to that one as Interlagos.
 
On a slightly different note did anyone else notice FOM translated one of the Italian Alonso radio messages? I guess they got annoyed about broadcasting something the majority didn't understand.
 
Massa could have won Interlagos convincingly if he didn't team play.

Disagree - Hulk, Button and Hamilton were in a field of their own up front.

Without the safety car Hulk and Button likely would have lapped the field. Massa didn't lose out that much helping Alonso that race.
He might have finished 2nd but I doubt he would have won the race. Ferrari simply didn't have the pace.
 
Disagree - Hulk, Button and Hamilton were in a field of their own up front.

Without the safety car Hulk and Button likely would have lapped the field. Massa didn't lose out that much helping Alonso that race.
He might have finished 2nd but I doubt he would have won the race. Ferrari simply didn't have the pace.

I'm considering all what happened on the race, including Hulkenberg pulling off a Maldonado.

This is one of the races in which most people didn't care about the mid/upper field, which is the most entertaining part of watching f1. This race is truly worth re-watching but focusing on Massa and Webber.
 
I'm considering all what happened on the race, including Hulkenberg pulling off a Maldonado.

Then you missed the bit where Button was going to win the race by over 30 seconds from Alonso before the 2nd safety car.
You really think Massa was so much faster he could have made that margin?
 
Then you missed the bit where Button was going to win the race by over 30 seconds from Alonso before the 2nd safety car.
You really think Massa was so much faster he could have made that margin?

Did you miss the part where Massa held off the pack purposely for about 1/4 the race? Or his marvelous start to then slowing down to help Alonso?

edit: People really underestimate Massa. It's like they didn't watch him before the accident and/or forgot he was one lap away from being one of the greatest in the sport (world champion) leaving Hamilton without his sole title, that he won on Interlagos because of luck really.
 
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Held off the pack? Is this the "numbers" you were speaking of? :lol: Massa was going as fast as he could.
The only move he pulled to help Alonso that I remember off the top of my head was overtaking-blocking Webber to allow Alonso to pull a double-overtake.
And Massa benefitted from that move too.

The rest of the race I seem to remember Massa running on his own without having to slow down for Alonso.

Even if he hadn't supposedly slowed down to help Alonso, his pace was nowhere near the front 3 and he was on inferior strategies to them too - Button and Hulk were the only drivers to stay on slicks hence their huge margin.

edit: People really underestimate Massa. It's like they didn't watch him before the accident and/or forgot he was one lap away from being one of the greatest in the sport (world champion).

I didn't forget his inconsistent Sauber and early Ferrari years. 2008 was his best season...and in even in that he was against an equally inconsistent Hamilton.
I mean 2008 was the year where Kubica came close to winning in the 3rd-best car until the last few races.

Massa is a good driver, but he is not the greatest, he's not even as good as Button. I'd say he's about as good as Webber or Barrichello. Which is not an insult - its no bad thing. But he isn't as good as you are suggesting. He couldn't have won the 2012 Brazilian GP without some serious misfortune for his competitors.
 
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Indeed. Under normal, non-team orders/help Alonso mode Massa would have comfortably beaten Alonso at those two races. I would have made the bet on him to win the race if I didn't get the feeling he'd not have the chance to win.

Na because Hulkenberg/Mclaren's were way faster than him and with if you can do everything. He could have finished 2nd I do agree with that. However please remember that with "if" everthing can be redone. We can only talk about stuff that happen, and what happened is that Alonso destroyed him in the driver championship.

2-3 race where he shows better pace dont mean anything to ferrari. The star is Alonso no one else. They arent aiming at a driver that can win 1-2 race in a season but one that can win a championship.

I dont see why Ferrari would go and say Massa is better than Alonso in the last 2 race and risk to put Alonso in a bad mood. Again the number one driver at Ferrari is Alonso and Ferrari makes everything to show him that. It's not like RB or Mclaren where both driver are at the same position and can fight equally.

And Massa was probably praised for the last 2-3 GP he did, but internaly and in a way it wont disturb Alonso. He did got a contract for next years when the entire world was against Ferrari resigning him. Please keep that in mind.
 
You guys are dissing Massa using him as nothing but a benchmark to pull down Alonso. It's ridiculous. Massa's always been a great driver, he did really well in these last couple races, it happens all the time between drivers. He just had a horrible slump. Had this been his pace from the start, he would've had races in the bag just like Webber vs. Vettel. Stop using Massa as some sort of way to try and lower Alonso's performance, it just makes no sense.
 
You guys are dissing Massa using him as nothing but a benchmark to pull down Alonso. It's ridiculous. Massa's always been a great driver, he did really well in these last couple races, it happens all the time between drivers. He just had a horrible slump. Had this been his pace from the start, he would've had races in the bag just like Webber vs. Vettel. Stop using Massa as some sort of way to try and lower Alonso's performance, it just makes no sense.

I agree Eddie. It's bad enough he's missed out on yet another WDC by the slimmest of margins, but the blatant attempts to undermine his performance throughout the season is like kicking a man while he's down :lol:
 
For the past few races, Massa has certainly been on fire. He's been matching and even sometimes surpassing the heavily pressured Alonso.

But those that say people underestimate Massa; Did we underestimate him when he hadn't had a podium for 50 odd races?

It's difficult to say whether Massa was underperforming, or whether Alonso was putting the car in positions it shouldn't really be in. Either way, the Ferrari was miles behind the Red Bull and the Mclaren on outright pace (And even slower than the Mercedes and Sauber at various races too). There is not a single race where the Ferrari has been stronger than the competition. Now if you take into consideration the terrible luck Alonso had in certain races, the fact that he was challenging for the title still was a great achievement.

I just think people are sick of the Vettel bashing because of the fast Red Bull, that they're taking the immature path of trying to deflect that onto Alonso instead. It just won't stick, because it's completely ridiculous. The Ferrari hasn't had a true pace setting car since 2008, and even then the Mclaren could match it.
 
Na because Hulkenberg/Mclaren's were way faster than him and with if you can do everything. He could have finished 2nd I do agree with that. However please remember that with "if" everthing can be redone. We can only talk about stuff that happen, and what happened is that Alonso destroyed him in the driver championship.

2-3 race where he shows better pace dont mean anything to ferrari. The star is Alonso no one else. They arent aiming at a driver that can win 1-2 race in a season but one that can win a championship.

I dont see why Ferrari would go and say Massa is better than Alonso in the last 2 race and risk to put Alonso in a bad mood. Again the number one driver at Ferrari is Alonso and Ferrari makes everything to show him that. It's not like RB or Mclaren where both driver are at the same position and can fight equally.

And Massa was probably praised for the last 2-3 GP he did, but internaly and in a way it wont disturb Alonso. He did got a contract for next years when the entire world was against Ferrari resigning him. Please keep that in mind.

I was just saying the reason I didn't place a bet BEFORE the race (therefore what happened in the race was irrelevant to my decision) was because I didn't think under any circumstance would Felipe be given a chance to win. Obviously once the race played out it was clear he probably wouldn't have won anyway because of the pace of the drivers you mention, I was just referrring to why I didn't bet before the race.

But yes, Felipe certainly would have finished second without any team orders. anything else is just 'what if' as you say.
 
For the past few races, Massa has certainly been on fire. He's been matching and even sometimes surpassing the heavily pressured Alonso.

But those that say people underestimate Massa; Did we underestimate him when he hadn't had a podium for 50 odd races?

It's difficult to say whether Massa was underperforming, or whether Alonso was putting the car in positions it shouldn't really be in. Either way, the Ferrari was miles behind the Red Bull and the Mclaren on outright pace (And even slower than the Mercedes and Sauber at various races too). There is not a single race where the Ferrari has been stronger than the competition. Now if you take into consideration the terrible luck Alonso had in certain races, the fact that he was challenging for the title still was a great achievement.

I just think people are sick of the Vettel bashing because of the fast Red Bull, that they're taking the immature path of trying to deflect that onto Alonso instead. It just won't stick, because it's completely ridiculous. The Ferrari hasn't had a true pace setting car since 2008, and even then the Mclaren could match it.

I completely agree. I for one, never have, and never will try to discredit Vettel. I believe that he is a deserving champion. Those trying to bring down Alonso are no different than the Vettel "haters". Both drivers will go down in history as all-time greats. And it's been a pleasure watching them.
 
On a slightly different note did anyone else notice FOM translated one of the Italian Alonso radio messages? I guess they got annoyed about broadcasting something the majority didn't understand.

Yup. I saw that. I hope they continue doing that.
Disagree - Hulk, Button and Hamilton were in a field of their own up front.

Without the safety car Hulk and Button likely would have lapped the field. Massa didn't lose out that much helping Alonso that race.
He might have finished 2nd but I doubt he would have won the race. Ferrari simply didn't have the pace.

Pretty much. Massa stayed on Medium, just as Button and Hulkenberg, but he was so slow that he ended up being overtaken by the others (Alonso, Vettel, etc) that had pitted for Intermediate.
 
It really is a great shame Hulk and Hamilton went out of the race, they along with Button were clearly dominating the rest and were destined to make the podium but for one small error it wasn't to be, Hamilton ended his McLaren career with a DNF and Hulk denied himself a great podium. A shame, it also would have made all the Vettel discussions about this race moot.
 
What does Germany 2010 have to do with my post? Or are you suggesting that Massa could have won a race this season if not for Alonso?

COTA? Grid penalty?
Interlagos as well he would have had a good chance. You're forgetting that the race results are not only influenced by the duration he is stuck behind Alonso, but also by holding up Webber and a pit stop strategy tailored to help Alonso.
 
COTA? Grid penalty?
Interlagos as well he would have had a good chance. You're forgetting that the race results are not only influenced by the duration he is stuck behind Alonso, but also by holding up Webber and a pit stop strategy tailored to help Alonso.

Massa only qualified 6th at COTA before the grid penalty. Vettel and Hamilton went on to finish 40s ahead of the rest of the field.

The McLarens and Hulk were too much at Brazil. Massa could have managed 2nd place after Hulk and Hamilton crashed. But he wasn't going to challenge Button for a win. Button was half a minute ahead of Alonso before Di Resta brought out the safety car. Button was on a two stopper. Massa had no chance of winning.
 
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You know, I'd like to say a goodbye to Michael Schumacher. Goodbye Michael, hope you enjoy retirement. I'll miss that red helmet during a Grand Prix.

Fun fact: Schumacher started his first race seventh, and finished his last race seventh. He also has seven world titles, and his Mercedes's number is seven.

michael_schumacher__belgium_1991__by_f1_history-d5harka.jpg


a-merc-schu-inte-2012-1-470x313.jpg
 
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Goodbye Schumi, you'll be missed yet again. Too bad he had so many weird problems. If the team was a bit more together then he probably would've at least had multiple podiums and a good chance of a win. Also, more poles.

But anyway, here's a very interesting article on Autosport about the damage Vettel dealt with in the last race. He was within an inch of the car's life. I can't imagine how crazy it must've felt for every one on the team since they were literally expecting the car to fall apart and retire at any second.

Mad props to them for holding it together through all the problems:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104603

Also, RB podcast is up:
http://audioboo.fm/boos/1080234-team-podcast-brazilian-grand-prix
 
You know, I'd like to say a goodbye to Michael Schumacher. Goodbye Michael, hope you enjoy retirement. I'll miss that red helmet during a Grand Prix.

Fun fact: Schumacher started his first race seventh, and finished his last race seventh. He also has seven world titles, and his Mercedes's number is seven.

michael_schumacher__belgium_1991__by_f1_history-d5harka.jpg


a-merc-schu-inte-2012-1-470x313.jpg

That's some Illuminati nutjob material right there.
 
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