2014 engines: inline-fours out, turbo-charged V6 engines in

Doubt Ferrari would go LeMans. The current rules are still not favorable for gasoline engines, and I don't think Ferrari is quite ready to go diesel yet.

KERS won't do much for fuel economy or reliability in a 24 hour race. In the current endurance formula, diesel is king.]

Not really, Diesel is only king because Audi and Peugeot put so much money into it, if they ran petrol cars they would still be 5 seconds a lap quicker. A petrol car would be able to win at Le Mans if a big team was behind it. Ferrari want KERS on their road cars, they would get big rule breaks at Le Mans for running KERS, it would make a lot of sense for them to do it, even more so with the new F1 engine rules.
 
Audi and Peugeot pour a lot of money into the diesel program because they know that diesel will win. Simply, current regulations allow diesels to be nearly twice as big (in terms of displacement), to have bigger air restrictors and more sophisticated turbos (though I think they've closed that loophole already, allowing gasoline cars variable geometry turbos). In this way, diesels at LeMans have more power while still being able to go further on a tank than gasoline cars (making the tanks smaller didn't help that much).

For Ferrari, or any other team, to push KERS, they would first have to get the exemption and/or ruling allowing multiple engines before committing. And they still wouldn't be able to go as far on a tank as a diesel, because aside from any initial charge stored in the battery system (which would probably be good for thirty seconds or so), KERS itself won't add much to a gasoline car's range. Some electric car builders actually forego regenerative braking, because of this.

Then you'll have to deal with heat buildup and battery longevity in grueling endurance racing conditions...
 
Not really, Diesel is only king because Audi and Peugeot put so much money into it, if they ran petrol cars they would still be 5 seconds a lap quicker. A petrol car would be able to win at Le Mans if a big team was behind it. Ferrari want KERS on their road cars, they would get big rule breaks at Le Mans for running KERS, it would make a lot of sense for them to do it, even more so with the new F1 engine rules.

Audi and Peugeot use Diesel because it more competitive. That is what sport is about. Deal with it.

Mazda. Last statement first paragraph.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/mazda-investigating-diesel-sportscar-programme/

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/audi-eyes-hybrid-r18-lmp1/

Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich first statement second paragraph.
 
Audi and Peugeot use Diesel because it more competitive. That is what sport is about. Deal with it.

Mazda. Last statement first paragraph.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/mazda-investigating-diesel-sportscar-programme/

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/audi-eyes-hybrid-r18-lmp1/

Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich first statement second paragraph.

Not at all, Dr Ullrich has always maintained that Audi use Diesels because it suits their company as a whole to develop Diesels. Its about being competitive but developing technology for road cars at the same time. Audi are more competitive because they have a massive budget, the same reason Pescarolo Diesels are never as fast as the works Diesels. Although, until Porsche(Hybrid), Ferrari or a Japanese works team turn up with a petrol car we will never really know, Prodrive don't really have the capacity to challenge the works teams unless the rules get flattened for the new world championship which they might do.
 
Not at all, Dr Ullrich has always maintained that Audi use Diesels because it suits their company as a whole to develop Diesels. Its about being competitive but developing technology for road cars at the same time. Audi are more competitive because they have a massive budget, the same reason Pescarolo Diesels are never as fast as the works Diesels. Although, until Porsche(Hybrid), Ferrari or a Japanese works team turn up with a petrol car we will never really know, Prodrive don't really have the capacity to challenge the works teams unless the rules get flattened for the new world championship which they might do.

This Dr Ullrich you mean?

"We are very conscious of such systems,” explains Head of Audi Motorsport Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich. “In our opinion, just as soon as this technology proves to be the most efficient we will use it at Le Mans.”

In other words "We are using diesel because it give us the edge"

You my friend are the only person I've ever heard that has bought into the PR rubbish that manufacturers put out. They are not in it to develop anything other than image or to do anything other than sell cars.

The adage is "win on sunday sell on monday".

They do not care one tiny little bit what engine is in the car you buy. The only thing that matter to them is the badge on its bonnet.
 
This Dr Ullrich you mean?



In other words "We are using diesel because it give us the edge"

You my friend are the only person I've ever heard that has bought into the PR rubbish that manufacturers put out. They are not in it to develop anything other than image or to do anything other than sell cars.

The adage is "win on sunday sell on monday".

They do not care one tiny little bit what engine is in the car you buy. The only thing that matter to them is the badge on its bonnet.

No, Dr Ullrich is talking about KERS and Hybrid systems in that interview if you actually read it. So yes he is right, Peugeot and Audi have both got those systems in development but are not quite right for racing yet.

Of course they care what engine you buy, that is very naive to think otherwise. Its no coincidence that the VAG group have the most advanced and efficient diesel engines on the market. The same with FSI from the R8. Creating the best most efficient engines helps them sell cars. They are winning on sundays, and selling diesels on mondays.
 
The F1/87 (amongst others) and the Dino206/246 say otherwise.

Not to mention the Ferrari Monza with it's reliable 4 cylinder engine, which was also used in Ferrari F1 cars of the day. Enzo's reasoning with the Monza was, even if the V12 cars failed to finish, the little Monzas would score on reliability. "This was Ferrari at his most ingenious." - Alain de Cadanet

The reason they get upset about it now is because they had built up an image of prestige, refinement and motorsport excellence with their V8 and V12 engines over the years. This is what sells their cars today. Enzo on the other hand didn't really care what engine was in his cars, as long as they won races. He did care about switching to disc brakes, but he didn't like his cars being out-braked by Jaguar D-Types either. :lol:
 
I would absolutely love to see Ferrari go back to their roots. A 1.6 liter V6 or 2 liter handbuilt V8 in a low-run open topped roadster putting out maybe 250-300 horsepower. Hmmm... Maybe Ferrari would be okay with the 1.6 liter rule if cylinder count went unspecified? :lol: Though it'll be awfully difficult fitting modern components to such a small engine... direct injection, for one, would be difficult to implement.

Of course they care what engine you buy, that is very naive to think otherwise. Its no coincidence that the VAG group have the most advanced and efficient diesel engines on the market. The same with FSI from the R8. Creating the best most efficient engines helps them sell cars. They are winning on sundays, and selling diesels on mondays.

And yet, those engines have much less relation to their road cars than the diesels in the 24 hours of Nurburgring and touring car series.

Diesels are partly marketing, there's no denying that.

But do you actually see either Audi or Peugeot going back to gasoline, even without the marketing angle? Obviously not. The power, torque and endurance advantage of diesels under the current rules are simply too great.

Repeat... neither manufacturer will risk downgrading to an inferior gasoline engine until the rules are rebalanced to remove the huge advantage given to diesels. The smaller teams aren't all going diesel because they can't afford the engine-development program...
 
Just one question, why is direction injection hard to get into a 1.6 engine? You can already get it in engines smaller than 1.6 in road cars.
For example nissan has a 1.2 3cyl direct injection. VAG has the 1.2 DI petrol engines.
 
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There's no real reason (at least that I know of) beyond the fact that the current DI technology is incapable of operating at the types of rpm's a high strung 1.6 V6 would rev to (say 10k rpm). Although this is something that will likely be resolved in the not too distant future.

Also from what I've heard, a lot of the current direct injection engines have their downfalls, particularly when its comes to power losses associated with the large amounts of carbon build up that can accumulate on the backside of the intake valve.
 
Anstalt für Verbrennungskraftmaschinen List.

Hard to see the sense of that from Red Bull's point of view... we've seen some of the world's best engine designers fail in F1 over the years.

Poor Joe, one glass of wine and he's anyone's. Plenty of booze in Valencia last night, I hear :D
 
Hard to see the sense of that from Red Bull's point of view...
Stop posting until you actually think about what you're saying. Please.

The new engines are not coming until 2014. Assuming for the moment that AVL have every intention of developing an engine and will have one ready for 2014, they have two and a half years to get it ready. Likewise, Red Bull will have two and a half years to assess their engine situation and make the best decision. They went from tail-enders to World Champions in six, and you don't get to be in that position by making decisions about which engine you're going to use two years before it is even ready on the basis of a flimsy rumour.
 
This post is way out of date to be relevant to the thread any longer, but I ran across a 4 cylinder "Ferrari" road car.
http://www.carstyling.ru/en/car/1961_asa_1000_gt/

Apparently it was a personal matter with Enzo himself to see this car produced, receiving rave reviews from the press, but poor sales success.

Let it also be remembered that Ferrari produced a wildly successful series of 4 cylinder Formula 2, Formula 1 and sports/racing cars from 1951 through to 1956.

On an even more trivial note, Ferrari dyno-tested a 2 cylinder Formula 1 engine in 1955 for possible use at Monaco.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
 
I think the whole point of "engine relevance" is that its relevant to current cars...as Ferrari are not trying to sell old cars from the 50s are they? Their current range of roadcars do not have Inline-4 engines, therefore, they cannot use the marketing potential of F1 in this sense.
Ok, they don't produce V6s either currently, but its at least a bit closer than an I4, and its something Ferrari is more likely to produce in future.

This is not about relevance to what a car manufacturer can produce (as most car manufacturers rarely if ever have anything physically to do with race engines) and its not about relevance through legacy or history. Its purely about relevance in marketing. They like to say "and our V8 engines power our F1 cars to victories, so you can feel the performance of victory" and that kind of stuff, trying to suggest buying a Ferrari roadcar is buying F1-developed technology (which in reality is only partially true, but as regards to engines, its not really).

Basically Ferrari is more worried about the image of inline-4 turbos for them, as they currently don't produce them in roadcars, it isn't the kind of image they are looking for. Same for Renault or any other manufacturer.

Perhaps in this respect a V6 is a better idea as it appeals to more car manufacturers who are likely to be interested in F1 marketing. While inline-4s are far more common, are Suzuki or Kia really going to stump up the cash for this kind of marketing? Probably not as much as Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, etc are. Your "average" car manufacturer isn't really targeting a performance market and so tends not to use much performance-based marketing such as F1 brand promotion. Then again, the global reach of F1 is huge and is very useful for any car manufacturer.
 
These regulations will certainly leave a negative mark in F1. I see the newly-reborn WSC gaining popularity from F1 with fans and manufacturers, growing as popular as the Group C.
 
These regulations will certainly leave a negative mark in F1. I see the newly-reborn WSC gaining popularity from F1 with fans and manufacturers, growing as popular as the Group C.

Yeah right, I'm a fan of endurance racing but the reason it isn't popular is not because F1 does something better. Endurance racing by nature is long and drawn-out. While action is somewhat always about, its not the same as sprint-style racing, its not as fast-paced with action. I personally find I have to watch live timing and keep constant track of different cars and their strategies to really enjoy and appreciate endurance racing - not so with F1, BTCC, WRC or any other sprint-style competition. The very nature of watching a 6, 12, or 24 hour race as opposed to a 90 minute or 30 minute race is much more demanding for the viewer.

It requires much more than a decline in F1 for the WSC to somehow rival its current status. A hell of a lot more.

I also don't think most viewers will really care what engines F1 runs..so long as they are the fastest still and sound like screaming hornets, it really won't make a difference to its popularity.
 
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@Ardius:

The only thing that can bring down F1 is perhaps old man Bernie himself.

Sports car racing never did have the individual personalities that F1 has with all the drama in off seasons (who is getting dumped, hired, retired, trained, etc.).

If the 4 cylinder turbo does indeed get the the green light, I can't see why Ferrari can't man-up and make a four cylinder car.

Enzo did it, why can't his successors?

Screw image of the brand when you can innovate.
 
@Ardius:

The only thing that can bring down F1 is perhaps old man Bernie himself.
.

Heh, no one learns. Bernie if anything only ever expands F1! Don't be fooled by his crazy ideas and statements, it all has a purpose and in the end, he always manages to make F1 somehow grow and always gets it in the press every week.
 
I have said this before: if I was guaranteed great racing from a series which used Peugeot 106s with coffee tin exhausts that blasted out [insert crappy UK rapper here] at 130dB, I would watch it. Using the argument of "The engines will sound crap!" is as redundant to me as basing your arguments against homosexuality on outdated and incorrect myths.

I am in favour of turbo engines. I do agree that the V10s sounded eargasmic, but from watching old footage from the turbo era, I don't think turbo engines sound that bad.
 
Just one question, why is direction injection hard to get into a 1.6 engine? You can already get it in engines smaller than 1.6 in road cars.
For example nissan has a 1.2 3cyl direct injection. VAG has the 1.2 DI petrol engines.

If it were a V6 or V8, DI would be difficult to implement in cylinders that small. Hyundai is already complaining of the packaging issues for diesels of under 1.5 liters with four pots.

This is also why BMW is going with (is, was, I don't know...) 3 cylinder 1.5s... cylinder packaging.

Oh, and, uh, yeah... DI doesn't work at high engine speeds... but you could get around that by having two sets of injectors... the DI set would be for low engine speeds and idling, to keep fuel consumption low... (although Nissan was working on a system almost as good a while back with moderate pressure injectors...) not that that's a huge priority in F1 cars...
 
Well, all lovers of Ferrari-related conspiracy theories can move on to the next available one, if Newey (or ESPN) is telling the truth. Apparently, AUDI is to blame ...
 
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