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We don't know we'll just wait and see. I'm sure we'll all know soon enough.
2015 F1 Mechanics/Aero; Design predictions to win the WCC/WDC. READ FIRST POST
- Thread starter LMSCorvetteGT2
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We don't know we'll just wait and see. I'm sure we'll all know soon enough.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
My guess is... wait for it... Renault. It's the only (apparently) remaining supplier that makes sense. Mercedes are a No. So are Ferrari unless they offer RB the 2016 engine, which I doubt will happen after they've climbed this far.
Honda are an outside bet, it depends on whether a) they're asked or b) McLaren still have any leverage with them. Certainly the rules say that they must offer the engine if told to.
RB are in schtuck for 2016, I reckon they'd take the Renault 2016 engine if possible, it's likely to be the easiest mate for their chassis and it's a devil they know... or at least know better than the others. What they will have done is lose their primary team status through their contractual shennanigans, but if that helps them tread water through 2016 without running a 2015 lump then I think they'd do it.
![[Nor]MclarenF1](/forum/data/avatars/m/169/169289.jpg?1413287138){kind=avatar}
- 2,281
- Moss
- hoydeskrekk
Looks like screamer pipes will be all the rage come 2016.
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...t-changes-to-make-cars-louder-for-2016-season
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...t-changes-to-make-cars-louder-for-2016-season
- 9,554
- Vermont
- catamount39
Anything to make these sound better. A V6T can sound good, 1980's F1 and some modern V6T's prove that.
- 2,828
Agreed. Although there's something about most of the modern V6T engines that just doesn't sound right, as in they are a lot lower in pitch and don't scream like the older engines did. As in the current F1 engines, the new Ford GT prototype, even road cars like the Alfa Giulia (not to mention the awful sounding BMW M3/M4, albeit being an inline 6), they don't sound right. Sure there are some plenty of crackles and bangs on gearshifts and on the overrun, but the engines themselves just don't sound particularly "nice" under load.
Personally I don't think the electrically controlled turbos do anything to help the sound of the current F1 cars, but hopefully the screamer pipes open them up a little
- 2,281
- Moss
- hoydeskrekk
I think the main reason modern engines sound a bit "off" compared to their counterparts of yesteryear is mainly due to more efficient combustion.
- 2,828
I think you're right. That and electronic engine management, fuel injection etc. Kind of ironic that car companies are now using those things to make cars sound less "perfect" (e.g. programming cars to backfire on the overrun etc.)
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Car companies spend a lot of time "tuning" the exhaust for the right note, I remember a documentary about the McLaren P1 (or the MP43P4P432P234) where they did exactly that.
In F1 the current regs are designed to save as much energy as possible, not to piss it out into the air as sound.
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- HamiltonMP427
Exactly this, in the context of F1(which is all that matters) the reason the cars sound the way they do is as Ten put it and more importantly because of the Turbo integration in the cars, a normal turbo set up off the bank of an engine will rob you of sound for increased power. However, these turbos are either separated housing on one end and the other on the other end of the engine or in the engine with the manifold running directly into it (as usual) and then right out the back (not so usual unless race car). This along with what Ten said all play a key part into robbing the cars of sound. Also the rev limit and fuel flow that allows less of a boom play a role into the sound as well.
If the cars revved at 16k with 800bhp from the engine alone then they'd sound like the 80s cars or close to them, essentially what they're doing is creating a down pipe instead for next season thus to allow for more sound.
- 9,554
- Vermont
- catamount39
Honda has declined to give Toro Rosso their engine.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-rules-out-toro-rosso-engine-deal-2/
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-rules-out-toro-rosso-engine-deal-2/
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- HamiltonMP427
Why would Toro Rosso even bother to ask this if there is still some large uncertainty about Honda engines going into next year?
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- 2,281
- Moss
- hoydeskrekk
I'm guessing desperation.
- 2,998
- England
- Peasantslayer
RB could go for Ferrari power units while TR get Honda power units, that way they could get an idea of which will be the best option long-term and to commit to one of them with both teams in the future.
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- HamiltonMP427
How does that give them any idea long term? Using an engine for a year means nothing when the 2017 rules are nearly set and the ideas floating about for years after that where thing can once again change. Especially when the Ferrari option is using an older spec engine, which tells them nothing about current performance of future performance. With the Honda the spec 2 engine hasn't shown to be any better than one before the use of tokens and thus going into 2016 they'll know just as little if they obtained them. In reality the fact that RB has to face is they put themselves in a hole, when in reality they should have taken it on the chin, worked behind the scenes like they once did back in the late 00s and got somewhere.
Rather they cried like emotional children and came to a rash decision to end a long term relationship that could have been turned into a wise coup instead. And thus this is what they have to face. To me it seems they thought that they could just drop a manufacture and get a new one easily because either Bernie said or because the RBR lineage is so worth having you can't possibly say no, well teams are saying no
- 2,998
- England
- Peasantslayer
I think they wanted to use TR to find out if the Honda power unit would be something special once its problems were fixed. RB could stay with Ferrari for a couple of years and ditch them if necessary.
Also the public heard rumours about Mercedes having a huge performance advantage with the new power units long before the 2014 season started, I'm sure the customer teams will have an idea of how good their power units will be in the future.
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- 22,551
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- HamiltonMP427
But my point still stands, that's more of a risk and loss then staying with Renault. The thing is Honda may never get a great running power unit and their last take in F1 showed that with the money they couldn't build a very competitive V8 compared to the others as well.
As for Mercedes, I wouldn't use them as the standard especially when we're talking Honda. Remember these are the guys that had the pinnacle of performance with room to spare, when the token rule was added, of course customers knew they had a high chance of getting an even better engine than the 2014 variant. And obviously ended up right, but that was because of how obvious it was. Now the same is starting to be said about Ferrari because of the strides they've made over the last nearly 2 years. Honda is still in it's infancy (development phase) and thus are very unknown if they'll be better or not. People assume they should be because it's Honda.
Obviously RB isn't desperate cause if they were they'd have called up Cosworth and asked them for help and then payed them to use tokens to develop the 2014 engine they had further. That's if the FIA would allow it.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Right now they are.
- 31,710
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- Dennisch
Does it already have a turbo?
ROAD_DOGG33J
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- holyc0w1
- holyc0w
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- Hammerhead Garage
The rules currently state that suppliers must provide customers with engines that are of the same specification as the engines used by the works team. There naturally some degree of variation; Mercedes have unfettered access to their own data, whereas Williams, as a customer team, naturally do not. Likewise, works teams are hesitant to roll upgrades out to customers straight away without having first bedded those upgrades in themselves; case in point, Mercedes running different specifications for Rosberg and Hamilton. The cynics among us will no doubt say "well, of course they won't give the upgrades out because they don't want customers challenging them", but from the customer point of view, it makes sense because you want to know that the upgrade you are getting works.
The point is that under the current regulations, there is no provision for a supplier to provide two different specifications of engine to separate customers, and without unrestricted access to Ferrari's data, Red Bull would never be able to prove that they were being given a different engine. They would have to understand that going in. The problem is Manor Marussia - because of their financial situation at the start of the year, they brokered a deal to use 2014 engines, and it appears that Ferrari are trying to use this arrangement to offer Red Bull year-old engines. A proposal has been submitted to the Strategy Working Group to finalise these arrangements, offering older engines for less to aid smaller teams, but it still needs to be voted through. And with Manor doing a deal with Mercedes for 2016 that will see them using 2016 engines, it's increasingly hard to justify pushing the changes through. With a seat on the SWG, Red Bull can vote against the proposal and possibly kill it; although Ferrari have a veto, they can only use it after the changes have been approved and my understanding is that they cannot use it to force through a proposed change that was not accepted.
So it really boils down to whether Red Bull are confident that Ferrari have given them 2016 engines. The conundrum is that they can never have quite the same engine without all of the data, but no regulation can force Ferrari to make it available.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
There's a precedent with Manor though, they ran 2014 engines in 2015. I can't remember exactly how that was made possible, I presume it must be extra-regular?
- 9,554
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- catamount39
Someone get Cosworth on the phone...
Tired Tyres
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- Tired_Tyres
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Yes, it's an extra-regular deal, a response to their financial situation. But the deal with Mercedes is for 2016 engines and the other teams that are struggling - like Sauber - are also getting 2016 engines. So it's difficult for Ferrari to justify giving one of the most well-off teams old engines when the struggling teams can afford the new engines.
- 2,938
- Shrewsbury
- pezzarinho17
Mercedes customer F1 teams won't get upgraded engine in 2015
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121195
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121195
Can't say I am that surprised, though I have seen a lot of stories from the likes of Williams and Lotus seeming to believe it was a matter of when, not if. In fact the article mentions this:
"Williams said at Monza it hoped to tie its final scheduled engine changes of 2015 in with an update from Mercedes"
That is why you need to be an engine manufacturer to fight for the championship...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121195
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121195
Can't say I am that surprised, though I have seen a lot of stories from the likes of Williams and Lotus seeming to believe it was a matter of when, not if. In fact the article mentions this:
"Williams said at Monza it hoped to tie its final scheduled engine changes of 2015 in with an update from Mercedes"
That is why you need to be an engine manufacturer to fight for the championship...
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- HamiltonMP427
Or do what McLaren has done currently and in the past...just make sure whoever you pick actually has a full idea of the challenge they face and not sort of.
Edit: the article is strange, it says the Williams and Lotus team, as well as the FI team's Sergio Perez. As if Hulk doesn't race for them or more so FI only runs a single car...
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