2015 F1 Mechanics/Aero; Design predictions to win the WCC/WDC. READ FIRST POST

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The FIA are looking to introduce an independent, cost-controlled engine supply in 2017:

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121484/fia-to-tender-for-independent-engine

Almost sounds like Gov't provided healthcare in the U.S. the way it reads. Teams for a controlled (or attempted) cost can purchase these engines from the FIA (gov't) or they can keep paying the manufacture/engine sources directly at a larger premium and with more ulterior circumstances to deny you if they please.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Almost sounds like Gov't provided healthcare in the U.S. the way it reads. Teams for a controlled (or attempted) cost can purchase these engines from the FIA (gov't) or they can keep paying the manufacture/engine sources directly at a larger premium and with more ulterior circumstances to deny you if they please.

I think that the FIA will have something to say about manufacturers supplying different specifications of engine. I'm pretty sure they're going to use the cost-controlled engine to regulate the entire engine market by forcing manufacturers to lower their prices by providing an equally-competitive engine at a fixed price, but free of the strings that come with manufacturer engines.

The problem is that there's less than eighteen months to get it ready. There's plans for a Cosworth engine floating around somewhere and talk of Ilmor being on standby to develop a Red Bull engine (months ago, before the Renault divorce). They just don't want a repeat of PURE. And I doubt they want to sacrifice ERS-K and ERS-H, either. So they need to get the balance of performance right, and that's always tricky.

 

[DK]

I thought Ilmor was absorbed into Mercedes' engine development arm?

EDIT: I should have remembered it was Ilmor's own engine development arm that got bought out by Mercedes. Even then, I can't really see them moving into developing a power unit.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I thought Ilmor was absorbed into Mercedes' engine development arm?

EDIT: I should have remembered it was Ilmor's own engine development arm that got bought out by Mercedes. Even then, I can't really see them moving into developing a power unit.

Yeah Illien basically made a new Illmor after the original was bought out by Merc. So it exist but isn't the original one as you've noted since that one is now Mercedes Benz engine development.

As for all of the other posts on the topic:
My only issue with this news is, that this isn't at all going to solve anything unless a regulated checks and balances -cost capping which wont happen due to what I just noted if anyone reads closely enough- were to exist. All a group would have to do is run the engines they build themselves obviously and then only give at a discounted price due to tech partnership (HAAS and Ferrari or Mercedes and FI, Marussia) and if any teams challenge them by noting the cheaper developer then the Manufacture can say to go and use those then. Cause in reality there is more to gain by winning or placing high in the championship due to CVC dealings than selling at a reduced price to make small teams happy, that's unless the EU does something about the CVC sportsmanship inequity.

 

[GTPorsche]

 

[catamount39]

IT'S HAPPENING! IT'S HAPPENING! O_O
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/123174-force-india-set-for-aston-martin-deal

Pinch me I'm dreaming!

 

[ukfan758]

IT'S HAPPENING! IT'S HAPPENING! O_O
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/123174-force-india-set-for-aston-martin-deal

Pinch me I'm dreaming!

Christmas for you..

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

IT'S HAPPENING! IT'S HAPPENING! O_O
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/123174-force-india-set-for-aston-martin-deal

Pinch me I'm dreaming!

Doesn't mean anything other than a superficial sponsorship that will make the cars about as related to aston martin as the RBRs are to Infiniti.

Also this has been in the talks for a while between Aston joining F1 with someone if anyone on the grid.

 

[GTPorsche]

The Autosport article says AM are interested in using the F1 tech in their road cars, so I wouldn't be surprised if they fully takeover the team at some point in the future if they see it viable to do so.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The Autosport article says AM are interested in using the F1 tech in their road cars, so I wouldn't be surprised if they fully takeover the team at some point in the future if they see it viable to do so.

I would since that is the very reason they told RBR that they couldn't do anything more than a sponsorship deal that hinged upon the Mercedes engines being acquired. When that was showing to not work out, Aston said they couldn't deal, because if they did they'd run the risk of losing what they have to power their cars.

Aston doesn't have the money to take over and run an F1 team, hell they didn't have the money to develop a proper P1 car after the AMR-01 was retired and that's cheaper. I'm sure they can use some resources of FI to help develop road cars, without fully being fledged, like Infiniti as I've said. Since they too have claimed to reap benefits of being in F1 outside of the exposure.

This I'm a bit disappointed in though:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/10/30/wolff-regrets-anticipated-exit-of-booth-and-lowdon-from-manor/

 

[catamount39]

I would since that is the very reason they told RBR that they couldn't do anything more than a sponsorship deal that hinged upon the Mercedes engines being acquired. When that was showing to not work out, Aston said they couldn't deal, because if they did they'd run the risk of losing what they have to power their cars.

Aston doesn't have the money to take over and run an F1 team, hell they didn't have the money to develop a proper P1 car after the AMR-01 was retired and that's cheaper. I'm sure they can use some resources of FI to help develop road cars, without fully being fledged, like Infiniti as I've said. Since they too have claimed to reap benefits of being in F1 outside of the exposure.

This I'm a bit disappointed in though:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/10/30/wolff-regrets-anticipated-exit-of-booth-and-lowdon-from-manor/

For what it's worth Mercedes own 5% of Aston Martin...so...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

For what it's worth Mercedes own 5% of Aston Martin...so...

Yeah I know, which is why RBR were thought to be getting the engines in the first place. Then Mercedes realized how silly they may look if a team that spends as much as them in aero developement were to say beat the Factory team.

RBR with their resources really should be a manufacture.

 

[catamount39]

Yeah I know, which is why RBR were thought to be getting the engines in the first place. Then Mercedes realized how silly they may look if a team that spends as much as them in aero developement were to say beat the Factory team.

RBR with their resources really should be a manufacture.

Yeah, it's a shame Cosworth isn't around, they'd be perfect for Red Bull right now. RBR does indeed have an effort that rivals the "actual" manufacturers. Maybe that's why people took those rumors of them thinking od building their own engine ever came up (apart from those engine department hirings or something).

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah, it's a shame Cosworth isn't around, they'd be perfect for Red Bull right now. RBR does indeed have an effort that rivals the "actual" manufacturers. Maybe that's why people took those rumors of them thinking od building their own engine ever came up (apart from those engine department hirings or something).

I don't know about that. While RBR may have the state of the art resources that makes Ferrari and Mercedes stay up late at night...they don't have the tooling or know how when it comes to engines. It would be silly for RBR to spend even more money to help an engine company get up to speed with modern F1...unless they were planning to buy said company.

The engine hiring I thought was for the ECU set up since RBR and STR did their own electronics.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Also this has been in the talks for a while between Aston joining F1 with someone if anyone on the grid.

But it was previously belived to be dead and buried. Nobody had any inkling that the talks were ongoing.

I doubt Aston Martin would look to buy the team. Rather, it's a symbiotic relationship that they would be looking for. Aston Martin would get increased exposure at mininal cost, while the team would shore up their relationship with Mercedes, potentially unlocking them as a b-team. Mercedes are said to be locked in a bidding war with Ferrari for Max Verstappen, but Ferrari have the upper hand - Räikkönen's seat will likely become available in 2017. Barring an absolute disaster, Mercedes will likely keep Rosberg and Hamilton for the forseeable future. So if they get Verstappen, where do they put him? Manor would be a step backward, and Williams isn't really an option because Ferrari would rather take Verstappen than Bottas, so Verstappen would have to bank on Massa retiring or going elsewhere. But if Mercedes were to get Force India as a b-team, they could place Verstappen there. It would probably come at the expense of Nico Hülkenberg, but he's been under-performing of late and I don't think his heart is completely in it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

But it was previously belived to be dead and buried. Nobody had any inkling that the talks were ongoing.

I had read otherwise, don't recall where. But what I do recall is due to the much gathered returns seen by Infiniti, Aston thought a venture in F1 would help them gain similar numbers and thus make much needed money. No it didn't say who else they were talking to, but it would have always had to been thought a Merc team.


EDIT:

Found one of the articles from earlier this year in saved/bookmarks
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119869

Thus after RBR talks fell through, it must have been thought that they'd go back to 2 of these 3 teams. Lotus being taken over by Renault being the exclusion for them. And while we're on that, that isn't talked about much these days, it was only a few weeks ago that Renault were basically hours away from confirming and now it's as if nothing is going on... Point is just cause things quiet down doesn't mean that in the back ground they're not being talked about in some measure, and when other more important news (who is going to race for HAAS, finalizing 2016 rules) is happening, those smaller things seem to go unnoticed until it is big news.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

No it didn't say who else they were talking to, but it would have always had to been thought a Merc team.

Funnily enough, I'm watching a replay of FP1 in Mexico City and Sky are kicking around the idea of Dave Richards taking over Manor since John Booth and Graeme Lowdon are apparently leaving the team, since Prodrive HQ is right next to the Manor factory.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Funnily enough, I'm watching a replay of FP1 in Mexico City and Sky are kicking around the idea of Dave Richards taking over Manor since John Booth and Graeme Lowdon are apparently leaving the team, since Prodrive HQ is right next to the Manor factory.

I didn't know that (the Prodrive thing since I just posted the leaving of those two) would have been quite the deal for Manor.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I didn't know that (the Prodrive thing since I just posted the leaving of those two) would have been quite the deal for Manor.

I don't know if there is anything to it. Apparently Booth and Lowdon aren't happy - and haven't been for some time - with Steven Fitzgerald and the consortium owning the team, and Sky were kicking around names of potential replacements. To be honest, they weren't too imaginative; outside Richards, they couldn't see far past Ross Brawn and Martin Whitmarsh. Although they did suggest Trevor Carlin, and he's had a lot of success, but I think that he's over-extended himself since Carlin are exiting a lot of the junior series.

Ideally, the guy they should want is ART Grand Prix's Frédéric Vasseur, but he's in the frame for the Renault team principal role. They should probably look at whoever is running DAMS in GP2 or Prema Powerteam in European F3.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't know if there is anything to it. Apparently Booth and Lowdon aren't happy - and haven't been for some time - with Steven Fitzgerald and the consortium owning the team, and Sky were kicking around names of potential replacements. To be honest, they weren't too imaginative; outside Richards, they couldn't see far past Ross Brawn and Martin Whitmarsh. Although they did suggest Trevor Carlin, and he's had a lot of success, but I think that he's over-extended himself since Carlin are exiting a lot of the junior series.

Ideally, the guy they should want is ART Grand Prix's Frédéric Vasseur, but he's in the frame for the Renault team principal role. They should probably look at whoever is running DAMS in GP2 or Prema Powerteam in European F3.

I wouldn't know, I know nothing about feeder series team principals and owners, so this is just educational to me. I only know F1 sadly.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I wouldn't know, I know nothing about feeder series team principals and owners, so this is just educational to me. I only know F1 sadly.

They're worth following, if you can. Particularly GP2; sure, there's some average driving from time to time, and only a third of the grid at best really stand any chance at a future in Formula 1, but you'll often get to witness some brilliant racing. The commentators always note that the likes of Verstappen are completely fearless, and the same holds true for the GP2 grid (albeit with less talent). You might be able to find some of the races on YouTube; there was one a few years ago in Abu Dhabi that was phenomenal.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

They're worth following, if you can. Particularly GP2; sure, there's some average driving from time to time, and only a third of the grid at best really stand any chance at a future in Formula 1, but you'll often get to witness some brilliant racing. The commentators always note that the likes of Verstappen are completely fearless, and the same holds true for the GP2 grid (albeit with less talent). You might be able to find some of the races on YouTube; there was one a few years ago in Abu Dhabi that was phenomenal.

I watch GP2 and 3 and WSR and know of the drivers and what not, it's just the technical side is something I ever knew or gave interests too because I thought they weren't really that essential in a spec series. But then when I stop to think about it, they actually are.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Dave Richards

David, he supposedly hates 'Dave'

I think there are a couple of interesting aspects to this; the Mercedes AMG/Aston Martin tie-up (as you probably already know Mercedes now power Aston Martin and are rumoured to be selling them a whole platform shortly) and the consortium ownership. Personally I think that this is led by a link in the consortia investors somewhere, despite not being able to actually name one

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Personally I think that this is led by a link in the consortia investors somewhere, despite not being able to actually name one

Uh, which consortium are you talking about? The Manor ownership? If so, they have nothing to do with it. I was just pointing out that Prodrive, who run Aston Martins in GT racing, have been named as possibly running Manor because they're right next door; meanwhile, Aston Martin are in talks to enter Formula 1, but with Force India.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Uh, which consortium are you talking about? The Manor ownership? If so, they have nothing to do with it. I was just pointing out that Prodrive, who run Aston Martins in GT racing, have been named as possibly running Manor because they're right next door; meanwhile, Aston Martin are in talks to enter Formula 1, but with Force India.

The Richards/Prodrive/Astone Martin relationship is a little stronger than that due the DAR consortium. There's then a strong link from there to Mercedes AMG hence the recent rumour that AM might actually take over Manor. As it is it seems that Mercedes may be consolidating their links with all their supplied teams. There's also a link via senior ex-JP Morgan staff in both Investindustrial and Stephen Fitzpatrick's interests. The UK business pot isn't a very big one and it's the same players sitting on it over and over again.

That's all good for F1 of course; the more people willing to put money into keeping teams going the better. My only reservation would be the long term effects of engine manufacturers (and works teams) potentially having fingers in so many different team pies.

 

[catamount39]

The Richards/Prodrive/Astone Martin relationship is a little stronger than that due the DAR consortium. There's then a strong link from there to Mercedes AMG hence the recent rumour that AM might actually take over Manor. As it is it seems that Mercedes may be consolidating their links with all their supplied teams. There's also a link via senior ex-JP Morgan staff in both Investindustrial and Stephen Fitzpatrick's interests. The UK business pot isn't a very big one and it's the same players sitting on it over and over again.

That's all good for F1 of course; the more people willing to put money into keeping teams going the better. My only reservation would be the long term effects of engine manufacturers (and works teams) potentially having fingers in so many different team pies.

Hence the desperate need of an independent supplier...however I'm not sure that'll ever happen again. Not unless Cosworth or AER decide to.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

There's then a strong link from there to Mercedes AMG hence the recent rumour that AM might actually take over Manor.

Most of the talk is linking them to a partnership with Force India.

 

[Liquid]

RBR with their resources really should be a manufacture.

Red Bull GmbH don't have the first clue about motorsports, automobiles or engine manufacturing.

Milton Keynes GP certainly do but if they did start building their own engines, and it failed like with Arrows in 1998, or if Red Bull GmbH withdraw their backing, they'd be galloping down Diarrhoea Drive without a saddle.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Red Bull GmbH don't have the first clue about motorsports, automobiles or engine manufacturing.

Milton Keynes GP certainly do but if they did start building their own engines, and it failed like with Arrows in 1998, or if Red Bull GmbH withdraw their backing, they'd be galloping down Diarrhoea Drive without a saddle.

I know Red Bull don't, that's why I said RBR

And yeah it could go that route of Arrows but Hart didn't have the funds and seemed to be stuck in the 70s and 80s when his engine building actually had some strength behind it. RBR have far more money it could be said, but then again it takes far more money now days then back then to do something that is just alone decent as far as engines go.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Another name to throw into the ring: Tavo Hellmund. While revealing that he is "a few short weeks away" from announcing another North American project, he has also said that he is exploring the possibility of investing in a team. Of course, just about every team would welcome investment, so he could be referring to any of them, but this is emerging at the same time as Manor get a management overhaul - Lowdon and Booth are going, and overnight Bob Bell has confirmed that he is leaving, too.

I do hope that if Manor continue, then they change the name. Technically, they're still Marussia F1, even though Andrey Cheglakov has nothing to do with them anymore, because it lets thrm claim the prize money. But Manor is the creation of Booth and Lowdon, and now that they're out, the name should go.