2017 Formula 1 Gran Premio de MexicoFormula 1

[TenEightyOne]

So you are saying every single season, although it was illegal to do so after the 2002 A1 incident?

I'd say so. I wouldn't say they were the only team who undertook such practices either.

Lies and you know it.

Wow.

According to your argument Barrichello shouldn't have any victories when he drove for Ferrari.

Nope, that doesn't logically follow at all. You're forgetting Irvine too.

yes I watched his career right from 94 to when he retired in 06.

That makes me wonder how you missed something so obvious.

Not going to fight but hell some people just refuse to acknowledge what Schumacher has achieved in the sport.

You shouldn't include me in those people, you really shouldn't.

EDIT: Here's Irvine talking about a team order in 1999, just so that you can retract the claim that I'm a liar. Thank you in advance.

 

[baldgye]

I don't see how you came to the conclusion that Vettel totally cracked. He's had the slower car for the majority of races this season yet the gap to him and Hamilton can pretty much be entirely attributed to one mistake which was more bad luck than anything else.


Pretty big overstatement, Vettel has done a good job keeping the championship as close as he did for as long as he did with a slower and less reliable car, so I would say it's been mostly equal between the too with Vettel being the better driver in the first half of the season and Hamilton coming back in the second.


Forcing someone off track to gain a position is dirty driving, not that I cared too much when he was doing it to Rosberg because Rosberg did it back and the stewards don't seem to care, but it's dirty driving nonetheless.

I'd argue that the Ferrari was the faster car for most of the season. The only reason it was ahead (with Lewis at the helm) was due to Lewis's skills in qualifying.
My argument for him cracking was the insanity at Baku, Singapore and what seemed like a clumsy mistake at Mexico (thought less important for the title).
The last year or so Vettel seems to quite easily shift into the red-mist and just does things that most other professionals don't do. Like Last year telling Charlie to F-off etc... even when Vettel drove into Lewis, Lewis just kind of ignored it and come Spa was just faster. Spa being a good example of the Ferrari being the better package, but due to Lewis's quali pace Vettel was unable to take the win, despite following him the whole GP.

I think the second point I'd argue that Vettel's outbursts and silly move at Singapore cost him the title more than the reliability issues did, though, they didn't help.

Forcing someone off-track isn't what I'd call that dirty, at least in the way Lewis did it to Nico, which was textbook... it wasn't like Alonso forcing Vettel to take to the grass at Monza, or Nico at Austria. It was hard fair racing, like we saw at Mexico with Alonso, Massa and Vettel/Max.

 

[Dennisch]

Lewis's skills in qualifying.

Mercedes' qualifying settings.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Mercedes' qualifying settings.

As I said before, while it's an interesting notion, they all have it. Also if it was so world ending, then we should easily be able to go over the post quali results and see Mercedes 1-2. I think it's probably better to give due dillegence and call a spade a spade. Lewis did his job on Saturday to set up for more chances on Sunday. I agree with @Spurgy 777 though, on average the Merc was an overall better car, while the Ferrari was a more planted car that did a better job navigating tighter and more downforce dependent tracks.

How this is approached in the build up to 2018 will be interesting especially with the suggestions from RBR and others of a radical 2018 RB car

 

[Dennisch]

then we should easily be able to go over the post quali results and see Mercedes 1-2.

I think we didn't (don't) see that because Bottas isn't the man for the Nr2 Mercedes car. Underwhelming to say the least.

 

[Liquid]

I always find it funny how people refer to Schumacher's teammate letting him through...it happened once at A1 ring in 2002. Later that year Schumacher let Barrichello through at the US grand prix to repay the favor...but no one mentions that. Similar after coming back from a broken leg in 99 at his first race, not competing for the championship having been out for 4 months he played an enormous part giving Irvine the win that day...no one mentions that. And yeah, after 4 months out coming back at a brand new track he got pole by 1 second from 2nd place.

Just for what it's worth:

Michael Schumacher was well known for setting up teams so that he had preferential treatment in all matters. The advantages he had over his teammates weren't just "they had to let him through if they were ahead". That is an egregiously simplistic way of looking at it.

An example of his preferential treatment happened at the 1995 Argentinian Grand Prix. At just the second race of the season Johnny Herbert went faster than Michael Schumacher in practice and after this, Schumacher prohibited Herbert and all of Herbert's engineering staff from seeing his telemetry; Schumacher still had access to Herbert's telemetry.

It has also been argued that the incident at the 2002 United States Grand Prix wasn't "repaying the favour" but an attempted photo finish which Schumacher mistimed, thus giving Barrichello an accidental victory. It is very telling that after the race, the team kept changing its story on whether it was a photo finish gone wrong or whether Michael had gifted Rubens the win. Because there was no certain explanation given, you could go either way on that one.

I don't think very many deny the talent Michael Schumacher had. He was an exceptional driver and a winner at all costs. His records speak for themselves. But to put him as some kind of martyr or saint with no black marks to his discredit is just wrong and untrue. To say that he did not benefit from preferential treatment in car design, race setups, staff appointments, mechanical components, data resources and even teammate selection, I also believe is incorrect.

He would always get the optimum race setups, most of the spare cars, the best and most reliable components and he justified it by going out and winning. Whatever it took.

---

Congratulations to Lewis Hamilton. I was hoping that Vettel could keep up the title fight for longer but it wasn't to be.

Great to see another win for Verstappen. I hope he is in a title-challenging car sooner rather than later.

 

[TheElbows]

I think everyone would love to see the Ferrari/Mercedes duel continue next year with added emphasis from Red Bull. They've been fortunate this year in picking up a lot of scraps, but I'd like to see them win in a straight out fight against the big contenders. I think the last few races have proven that's a definite possibility next year. A three-way title fight (even more if the teammates would get in on the action) could be glorious.

 

[niky]

I think the second point I'd argue that Vettel's outbursts and silly move at Singapore cost him the title more than the reliability issues did, though, they didn't help.

On average, the Merc was the faster car. Ferrari was just a whole lot better at tracks where it was better, and close enough at tracks it wasn't. With Red Bull better than Merc at the same tracks Ferrari was, Vettel had decent chances of winning the championship.

But definitely, Vettel sabotaged himself this season. And if the stewards weren't so allergic to penalizing title contenders, the title fight would have been over three races ago instead of now.

I truly enjoy the way both Vettel and Hamilton drive. They're definitely some of the best qualifiers ever to grace the sport, and the only thing that would make qualifying in these recent seasons sweeter would be to have Alonso and Max in similar machinery.

But both can be total dicks, at times. Only this year, it was Vettel more often than Hamilton. And boy, did he really screw himself over.

I don't think very many deny the talent Michael Schumacher had. He was an exceptional driver and a winner at all costs. His records speak for themselves. But to put him as some kind of martyr or saint with no black marks to his discredit is just wrong and untrue. To say that he did not benefit from preferential treatment in car design, race setups, staff appointments, mechanical components, data resources and even teammate selection, I also believe is incorrect.

That's what got Alonso his two titles, too. Forcing the team to make him top dog.

Which is probably the one reason his move to McLaren was wrong. He knew they didn't play that game... and that cost him dearly. Didn't help that Lewis was faster in his first season than Alonso expected.

 

[baldgye]

On average, the Merc was the faster car. Ferrari was just a whole lot better at tracks where it was better, and close enough at tracks it wasn't. With Red Bull better than Merc at the same tracks Ferrari was, Vettel had decent chances of winning the championship.

But definitely, Vettel sabotaged himself this season. And if the stewards weren't so allergic to penalizing title contenders, the title fight would have been over three races ago instead of now.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do feel like Ferrari had the better package for the majority of the races. I kinda mentally measure that using Bottas and Kimi and their position relative to Vettel and Lewis's.
I'm looking forward to the off-season so people with the data and the technical know-how can properly do a deep dive and see what the cars were like as they were developed.


I'm also very excited to see what Alonso can do in a McLaren with anything other than a donkey in the back!

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think we didn't (don't) see that because Bottas isn't the man for the Nr2 Mercedes car. Underwhelming to say the least.

Okay that's fine, but clearly shows that Hamilton was more than just a setting mode. Same can be said for Vettel over Kimi. Whether or not you want to admit it is a different story.

 

[Dennisch]

Okay that's fine, but clearly shows that Hamilton was more than just a setting mode. Same can be said for Vettel over Kimi. Whether or not you want to admit it is a different story.

Oh no, I'll admit that Lewis has some exceptional one lap skills, but we really can't underestimate Merc's Q3 setting.

Kimi is a has been. More often than not he just doesn't seem to enjoy his job.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Oh no, I'll admit that Lewis has some exceptional one lap skills, but we really can't underestimate Merc's Q3 setting.

Kimi is a has been. More often than not he just doesn't seem to enjoy his job.

No one is underestimating it, but it shouldn't be overestimated either. If it was such a key tool and component, then I'm amazed at the reliability of those engines this year. Because they're the only team to have such a ground breaking mode that can be used for 15 minutes on end and not compromise components, to the point they have had the least used parts of any team on the grid.

Kimi may be washed up but shouldn't excuse the fact that he has a capable car of challenging almost equally most times the Mercedes for pole.

 

[JockeP22]

Has this been posted yet?
Formula 1's YouTube channel uploaded this video three hours ago.



I'm having flashbacks to Balestre's "The best decision is my decision" when Whiting is talking.

 

[Spurgy 777]

I'd argue that the Ferrari was the faster car for most of the season. The only reason it was ahead (with Lewis at the helm) was due to Lewis's skills in qualifying.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do feel like Ferrari had the better package for the majority of the races. I kinda mentally measure that using Bottas and Kimi and their position relative to Vettel and Lewis's.
I'm looking forward to the off-season so people with the data and the technical know-how can properly do a deep dive and see what the cars were like as they were developed.

Well lets have a look at the stats so far, I've put all of the qualifying positions for Ferrari and Mercedes into 2 tables.

Table 1 highlights the races where each driver was faster than both of the drivers in the other team, Hamilton did it 12 times, Bottas and Vettel 5 times and Raikkonen 4 times.

On the far right column I've highlighted which team had the highest average qualifying position, Mercedes had the higher average 11 times, Ferrari 5 times and 2 times were neutral. As you can see the only times Vettel could beat both Mercedes is at the tracks where the Ferrari was strongest and pretty much vice versa with Hamilton, which is fairly obvious.

I've also put the average starting positions for all the drivers, with Vettel having an average of 2.41, Hamilton 2.56, Bottas 3.22 and Raikkonen 3.78. Vettel has the lower average starting position because, as I think @LMSCorvetteGT2 mentioned, when the Mercedes was the weaker car, not only were they behind both Ferraris most of the time, but occasionally a RB was infront too. On the other hand, as you will see in Table 2, Vettel could consistently beat his teammate, both RBs and one of the Mercedes even at tracks where the Mercedes was stronger, usually with Raikkonen behind the top 3.

Which leads me onto the more interesting table that I've put together. In this one I've highlighted all the races where each driver has beaten at least one driver from the other team, Hamilton did this 14 times, Vettel 13 times (would have been 14 if he qualified in Malaysia), Bottas 12 times and Raikkonen 6 times.

And the best bit is Raikkonen hasn't outqualified one of the Mercedes at any of the tracks where the Mercedes has been strongest, but Vettel has done it 7 times.

Also worth noting driver vs driver;

Ham vs Vet - 11/6
Bot vs Rai - 12/6
Merc vs Ferrari - 11/5
Ham vs Bot - 13/5
Vet vs Rai - 13/4

This shows that Hamilton beat Vettel as much as Bottas beat Raikkonen and Mercedes beat Ferrari and that Hamilton and Vettel beat their teammates as much as each other.

So to sum up;

• Mercedes were faster in qualifying at 2/3rds of races.
• When Mercedes were fastest Vettel usually still beat one of them (mostly Bottas) 7 times, something Raikkonen hasn't done once.
• When Ferrari were fastest Mercedes were almost always behind both Ferraris and occasionally a RB.

If you want I can always look through and get the average gap from pole for each driver, I may do it anyway.

My argument for him cracking was the insanity at Baku, Singapore and what seemed like a clumsy mistake at Mexico (thought less important for the title).
The last year or so Vettel seems to quite easily shift into the red-mist and just does things that most other professionals don't do. Like Last year telling Charlie to F-off etc... even when Vettel drove into Lewis, Lewis just kind of ignored it and come Spa was just faster. Spa being a good example of the Ferrari being the better package, but due to Lewis's quali pace Vettel was unable to take the win, despite following him the whole GP.

I think the second point I'd argue that Vettel's outbursts and silly move at Singapore cost him the title more than the reliability issues did, though, they didn't help.

I mostly agree with this, Vettel does occasionally lose his temper and do silly things, but I wouldn't really say that he cracked and lost the championship because of it. He lost because of Singapore, and although in hindsight his move was too aggressive, 9 times out of 10 it wouldn't have put him in any trouble. It's only because Raikkonen had a really good start, something Vettel couldn't have known, that it ended in a crash. So basically it was more down to bad luck than anything he did.

Forcing someone off-track isn't what I'd call that dirty, at least in the way Lewis did it to Nico, which was textbook... it wasn't like Alonso forcing Vettel to take to the grass at Monza, or Nico at Austria. It was hard fair racing, like we saw at Mexico with Alonso, Massa and Vettel/Max.

I realise it's not something you would call dirty, but if it was grass or gravel instead of tarmac run off you wouldn't be saying the same thing. The only difference is that the defending driver doesn't lose so much time, but it still has the same effect that you're running them out of track to force them to back off, rather than overtaking them cleanly by simply being faster when giving room for both cars to be on track. I would much rather they be forced to give room on track at all times and let the fastest driver who can position their car the best get the place, than giving it to the first person to shove the other driver wide.

 

[McLaren]

It's ESPN, so don't get your hopes up. I can already see them doing halfway breaks for a Sportscenter(or whatever they call it now) clip, especially at the beginning and end of the season when there is also basketball and football.

With Lewis hinting of kneeling & ESPN unable to stay out of politics, what a great combination that would be this season. /sarcasm

The reason I don't like LW is because he gives me the feeling I always had with John Jones ( UFC LHW champ) with his Mr. Nice guy act, fake AF.

Elaborate.

I follow Lewis on Instagram regularly and he comes across as a genuinely kind person. He's always thanking his team, posting how grateful he is, and always sharing fan interaction. At worst, he's a bit too far into the whole vegetarian, politically-correct, peace-for-all stigma but that doesn't mean he isn't a nice person.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm having flashbacks to Balestre's "The best decision is my decision" when Whiting is talking.

You mean this kind of thing?

 

[Spurgy 777]

@baldgye As promised here's the table showing the gap from pole at every race for the top 4 drivers and it's even more interesting than the first two tables!

As you can see, the average gap between Hamilton and Vettel is 0.173 seconds and between Bottas and Raikkonen its 0.162 seconds. which means you can safely say that the Mercedes has been on average around 0.17 seconds faster than the Ferrari.

The table shows the same pattern of fastest team as the other tables did, with Merc being fastest at 12/17 tracks (I'm ignoring Malaysia because Vettel didn't set a time, but it would probably go in favour of Ferrari). For the tracks where Merc were fastest (in grey), they were on average 0.438 seconds faster than Ferrari, and when Ferrari were fastest (in red) they were on average 0.427 seconds faster (0.405 if Vettel had set the same time as Raikkonen in Malaysia, or 0.462 if he had been 0.637 seconds up on Hamilton, same as Raikkonen was up on Bottas, which is unlikely but still).

I've also highlighted the driver with the biggest gap to their teammate each race, Vet and Ham having 7 a piece and Bottas the other 3.

So by pretty much every measure Vettel and Hamilton have been doing equally well in qualifying when considering that Hamilton has had on average the faster car.

Does that mean that Vettel has been outperforming Hamilton in the races relative to the cars performance to keep the championship as close as he did? We don't know. To get an idea of that I'd have to do a similar comparison but with the gap to winner for all 4 of them and even then it would only give you a rough idea as there are more factors to take into account during a race.

 

[SagarisGTB]

With Lewis hinting of kneeling & ESPN unable to stay out of politics, what a great combination that would be this season. /sarcasm

At worst, he's a bit too far into the whole vegetarian, politically-correct, peace-for-all stigma but that doesn't mean he isn't a nice person.

Oh, the irony!

And there's a stigma associated with being vegetarian and a proponent of peace for all? What? LOL.

Back on topic, congrats to Lewis on the title. I'm no fan of his, but he did a near flawless job this season. Vettel, for his part, had a strong season as well, but, along with reliability going wrong in Malaysia and Japan, his errors in judgement in Singapore and Baku and his arguably poor defense of position in Spain and USA contributed to the title going the way of the lead Mercedes driver. The Ferrari was right there all season in terms of pace, but a couple engine issues here and a couple collisions there (I include the unlucky collision with Max in Canada here too) is more than enough to spell doom when up against an opponent of the caliber of Mercedes and Hamilton.

Hopefully next season we can finally get a close WDC between different cars till the very end for the first time since 2012. I believe it's the first time since 1987-1993 that there hasn't been a multi-team last race WDC showdown over so many years and I think it's probably the first time ever that neither title has gone down to the wire (with the obvious provision that the WDC must involve multiple teams) over such a span.

 

[MoLiEG]

Kimi has been my man since he was in McLaren. So, for me, seeing him on that podium yesterday was quite special.

Also, Congratulations to Hamilton for his 4th title. He is simply amazing.

 

[McLaren]

Oh, the irony!

And there's a stigma associated with being vegetarian and a proponent of peace for all? What? LOL.

Kneeling has nothing to do with how nice a person is. ESPN however, would make it the topic & bring in the current political debates instead of actually covering the sport.

Secondly, you're purposely reading too far into my comment. I'm referring to past discussions members have had about how he decided to go vegetarian and want to promote a better earth whilst participating in a sport that contributes against that. That's the "worst" thing about him, which still has no effect on how he exhibits gratitude for the team, the sport, & the fans.

 

[Clark]

A way to get very wound up in five minutes: looking at the comments to this tweet with people saying how F1 isn’t a sport, or isn’t physical or that it’s only ever the best car that wins .



(NB Not a Hamilton fan but no denying how good his is)

 

[baldgye]

Well lets have a look at the stats so far, I've put all of the qualifying positions for Ferrari and Mercedes into 2 tables.

Table 1 highlights the races where each driver was faster than both of the drivers in the other team, Hamilton did it 12 times, Bottas and Vettel 5 times and Raikkonen 4 times.

View attachment 685374

On the far right column I've highlighted which team had the highest average qualifying position, Mercedes had the higher average 11 times, Ferrari 5 times and 2 times were neutral. As you can see the only times Vettel could beat both Mercedes is at the tracks where the Ferrari was strongest and pretty much vice versa with Hamilton, which is fairly obvious.

I've also put the average starting positions for all the drivers, with Vettel having an average of 2.41, Hamilton 2.56, Bottas 3.22 and Raikkonen 3.78. Vettel has the lower average starting position because, as I think @LMSCorvetteGT2 mentioned, when the Mercedes was the weaker car, not only were they behind both Ferraris most of the time, but occasionally a RB was infront too. On the other hand, as you will see in Table 2, Vettel could consistently beat his teammate, both RBs and one of the Mercedes even at tracks where the Mercedes was stronger, usually with Raikkonen behind the top 3.

Which leads me onto the more interesting table that I've put together. In this one I've highlighted all the races where each driver has beaten at least one driver from the other team, Hamilton did this 14 times, Vettel 13 times (would have been 14 if he qualified in Malaysia), Bottas 12 times and Raikkonen 6 times.

View attachment 685373

And the best bit is Raikkonen hasn't outqualified one of the Mercedes at any of the tracks where the Mercedes has been strongest, but Vettel has done it 7 times.

Also worth noting driver vs driver;

Ham vs Vet - 11/6
Bot vs Rai - 12/6
Merc vs Ferrari - 11/5
Ham vs Bot - 13/5
Vet vs Rai - 13/4

This shows that Hamilton beat Vettel as much as Bottas beat Raikkonen and Mercedes beat Ferrari and that Hamilton and Vettel beat their teammates as much as each other.

So to sum up;

• Mercedes were faster in qualifying at 2/3rds of races.
• When Mercedes were fastest Vettel usually still beat one of them (mostly Bottas) 7 times, something Raikkonen hasn't done once.
• When Ferrari were fastest Mercedes were almost always behind both Ferraris and occasionally a RB.

If you want I can always look through and get the average gap from pole for each driver, I may do it anyway.



I mostly agree with this, Vettel does occasionally lose his temper and do silly things, but I wouldn't really say that he cracked and lost the championship because of it. He lost because of Singapore, and although in hindsight his move was too aggressive, 9 times out of 10 it wouldn't have put him in any trouble. It's only because Raikkonen had a really good start, something Vettel couldn't have known, that it ended in a crash. So basically it was more down to bad luck than anything he did.



I realise it's not something you would call dirty, but if it was grass or gravel instead of tarmac run off you wouldn't be saying the same thing. The only difference is that the defending driver doesn't lose so much time, but it still has the same effect that you're running them out of track to force them to back off, rather than overtaking them cleanly by simply being faster when giving room for both cars to be on track. I would much rather they be forced to give room on track at all times and let the fastest driver who can position their car the best get the place, than giving it to the first person to shove the other driver wide.

Well damn! That was a lot of work thanks for putting that all together!
Seems I was wrong so fair play, I didn't realise the extent to which Bottas had beaten Kimi, I assumed it was more even to be honest.
I guess in my mind I had remembered pole laps like that at Spa when Lewis had put together a mega Q3 lap, despite the Ferrari being the over-all faster package in the race. But race pace and quali pace are very different things haha cheers, I stand very much corrected


On that last part, I don't know, I think it's just racing. I like good hard fair racing, it's a fine line. One that Nico famously struggled with at both Hockenheim and Austria, but the very best manage to make work for them, Lewis being (in my mind) the best at it, with Alonso very close and Vettel right up there too.
It's something that I think was taken away from F1, F1 would be a very different series.

@baldgye As promised here's the table showing the gap from pole at every race for the top 4 drivers and it's even more interesting than the first two tables!

As you can see, the average gap between Hamilton and Vettel is 0.173 seconds and between Bottas and Raikkonen its 0.162 seconds. which means you can safely say that the Mercedes has been on average around 0.17 seconds faster than the Ferrari.

The table shows the same pattern of fastest team as the other tables did, with Merc being fastest at 12/17 tracks (I'm ignoring Malaysia because Vettel didn't set a time, but it would probably go in favour of Ferrari). For the tracks where Merc were fastest (in grey), they were on average 0.438 seconds faster than Ferrari, and when Ferrari were fastest (in red) they were on average 0.427 seconds faster (0.405 if Vettel had set the same time as Raikkonen in Malaysia, or 0.462 if he had been 0.637 seconds up on Hamilton, same as Raikkonen was up on Bottas, which is unlikely but still).

I've also highlighted the driver with the biggest gap to their teammate each race, Vet and Ham having 7 a piece and Bottas the other 3.

View attachment 685430

So by pretty much every measure Vettel and Hamilton have been doing equally well in qualifying when considering that Hamilton has had on average the faster car.

Does that mean that Vettel has been outperforming Hamilton in the races relative to the cars performance to keep the championship as close as he did? We don't know. To get an idea of that I'd have to do a similar comparison but with the gap to winner for all 4 of them and even then it would only give you a rough idea as there are more factors to take into account during a race.

Well damn! haha
I guess the only other meaningful comparison would be average race lap time where both drivers finished?

 

[watertank]

wow, when they rotated the podium... facepalm

 

[Tired Tyres]

True, and many times anyone with Bridgetones were at a complete disadvantage compared to cars with Michelins...such as cooler or damp conditions. And even in these conditions Schumacher performed at a supremely high level.



Ah please...sure Schumacher did some crazy things so did Senna. So did Hamilton...they all do it because the will to win is just so great. And Schumacher only had the clear cut best car remotely comparable to Mercedes' dominance in 2002 and 2004...and imo only 2004 did they have a car that was as dominant as the Mercedes of 2014-2016. In 2000 and 2001 the Mclaren was regarded faster but had reliability issues. 2003 they had the weaker tyre compound and were on par with Williams' and Mclaren's pace.

And in 97 the Williams was clearly the best car, yet Schumacher lost the championship in the last race. 98 McLaren had a car whose dominance is comparable to 02 Ferrari at least...yet Schumacher lost the championship in the last race. He outperformed his car on so many occasions that anyone denying his greatness are either butt-hurt Hill fans or didn't see him actual race back in his prime.

Schumacher isn't the best in my opinion because of the amount of championships or race wins. The stuff he did in some races were out of this world. With an far inferior car in 96 lapped seconds faster than the competition in rain at Spain. 2nd place with a car stuck in 5th gear for more than half the race etc. etc. There are so many examples.

He had so many insane good drives and pulled of miracles at times. His best years in my opinion was 96-98...and he didn't win a championship then. But the stuff he did was pure genius.

He revolutionized the sport. For a man's name becoming synonymous with speed and F1 racing whilst trying to live a complete private life in stark contrast to some toyboy drivers it basically sums it up how special and good he was.

I always find it funny how people refer to Schumacher's teammate letting him through...it happened once at A1 ring in 2002. Later that year Schumacher let Barrichello through at the US grand prix to repay the favor...but no one mentions that. Similar after coming back from a broken leg in 99 at his first race, not competing for the championship having been out for 4 months he played an enormous part giving Irvine the win that day...no one mentions that. And yeah, after 4 months out coming back at a brand new track he got pole by 1 second from 2nd place.

You can hate him as much as you want, he was the complete driver and will always be regarded as one of the best.

I don't and never have hated Schumacher. I just think he's the most grossly overrated race driver of all time. World Champion class yes, but nothing more than that. You saw his real standing when he was operating under the same rules as everyone else when he went to Mercedes.

 

[baldgye]

You saw his real standing when he was operating under the same rules as everyone else when he went to Mercedes.

You mean, when he was in his 40s and managed to get pole at Monaco?

 

[Tired Tyres]

You mean, when he was in his 40s and managed to get pole at Monaco?

You want to pick out one thing here and one there and pretend Rosberg didn't own him for two entire years? Age? Affects the right foot does it?

 

[baldgye]

You want to pick out one thing here and one there and pretend Rosberg didn't own him for two entire years? Age? Affects the right foot does it?

Yeah Rosberg dominated Schumy, a 40 year old Schumy...

And yes, that's why most modern Grand Prix drivers retire... if you think F1 is about how heavy your right foot is, you clearly have no understanding of the sport 👍

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yeah Rosberg dominated Schumy, a 40 year old Schumy...

And yes, that's why most modern Grand Prix drivers retire... if you think F1 is about how heavy your right foot is, you clearly have no understanding of the sport 👍

So if I don't agree with your view then I don't understand the sport?

 

[Spurgy 777]

Well damn! haha
I guess the only other meaningful comparison would be average race lap time where both drivers finished?

Yeh, exactly, I might do it if I get bored.

You want to pick out one thing here and one there and pretend Rosberg didn't own him for two entire years? Age? Affects the right foot does it?

Age definitely has an effect on a drivers strength, endurance and probably most importantly reaction times, but yeh, other than that it doesn’t matter...

 

[Tired Tyres]

Age definitely has an effect on a drivers strength, endurance and probably most importantly reaction times, but yeh, other than that it doesn’t matter...

Of course it does. Slowly and almost imperceptible but no. He still had pretty must everything he ever had when he went to Mercedes. Except access to all the advantages he had before. 40 isn't a time to book an old age home place for a race driver no matter how much someone wants to use it as an excuse.