2023 Repco Supercars ChampionshipTouring Cars

[ScottPuss20]

Why the constant emphasis on aero? Why not weight or power? Giving the Mustang more downforce only makes things worse and goes against the essence of the new rules package! It's a joke. This constant power struggle needs to stop because we've had enough of it. I also hate the idea that the series has to be "pure" without any "gimmicks" such as "restricted tyre allocations" and "success ballast" which other championships have used to BENEFIT the competition. True parity cannot be achieved unless every car is identical.

 

[FPV MIC]

Why the constant emphasis on aero? Why not weight or power? Giving the Mustang more downforce only makes things worse and goes against the essence of the new rules package!

They're not actually adding more aero to the Mustang, and the emphasis is on aero this time because an anomaly was found in the way the Mustang was loosing it's aero with the nose down in braking zones.

The emphasis with this adjustment is (supposed) to address the rear tyre wear issue the Mustangs have been dealing with. Please read this for a far better explanation than I can give.

I suspect this is why DJR have been running their cars with such a low rear ride height recently.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So now the Ford teams have lost nearly half the seasons worth of data and are having to start fresh. Hopefully they'll be able to get a decent base set-up going before Bathurst as it's pretty much the only carrot they've got left to chase... as long as the engine anomaly is fixed too.

And what's with all these anomalies anyway? Gotta wonder how many have slipped through Supercars pathetic parity testing regime in the past.

 

[ScottPuss20]

They're not actually adding more aero to the Mustang, and the emphasis is on aero this time because an anomaly was found in the way the Mustang was loosing it's aero with the nose down in braking zones.

The emphasis with this adjustment is (supposed) to address the rear tyre wear issue the Mustangs have been dealing with. Please read this for a far better explanation than I can give.

I suspect this is why DJR have been running their cars with such a low rear ride height recently.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So now the Ford teams have lost nearly half the seasons worth of data and are having to start fresh. Hopefully they'll be able to get a decent base set-up going before Bathurst as it's pretty much the only carrot they've got left to chase... as long as the engine anomaly is fixed too.

And what's with all these anomalies anyway? Gotta wonder how many have slipped through Supercars pathetic parity testing regime in the past.

Yeah sorry I probably should've read the article first.

 

[FPV MIC]

So, it's not over

Seems there was a change after Supercars initial announcement that the wing would also be wider, but it's now remained the same width as before due to some, how can I say this diplomatically, BS (yes, ********, that's the word I'm looking for ) claim from the GM side disputing the figures.

Several new parts were trialed by DJR on the 30th of June, Supercars announcement was on the 4th (I think) of July so, due to the timeline, it stands to reason that the verification at QR was that the wing did indeed need to be wider along with the other changes.

Supercars statement (from here):

''The recommended changes involve modifying the position, span, and angle of the rear wing, and increase the size of the boot spoiler on the Ford Mustang.''

So now another event gets seemingly gifted to the GM brigade as it's now to late to change to the wider span the Ford was supposed to have. Wasn't that what the testing at QR was for? To verify the work done by D2H?

I thought JW said that if it was based on data he'd let the Ford teams fix it, but now after the actual data has been reviewed somehow things have changed... what gives?

What an absolute cluster ****!

More info:

https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/ford-teams-peeved-with-parity-tweak/

And here:

Ford Supercars teams still disgruntled with aero

au.motorsport.com

 

[Spacegoat]

And here:

Ford Supercars teams still disgruntled with aero

au.motorsport.com

We'll see what happens with the first race today.

But at this point I really wish Supercars would just publicly admit that there is a clear performance difference between the two cars and that they have no idea how to fix it , currently. Though I expect the commentary team will continue to gaslight the viewers by pretending everything is all sunshine and roses. Especially with all the extra eyes on the racing this weekend following SVG's NASCAR win.

 

[FPV MIC]

We'll see what happens with the first race today.

But at this point I really wish Supercars would just publicly admit that there is a clear performance difference between the two cars and that they have no idea how to fix it , currently. Though I expect the commentary team will continue to gaslight the viewers by pretending everything is all sunshine and roses. Especially with all the extra eyes on the racing this weekend following SVG's NASCAR win.

In Supercars commentary teams defence (yeah I know, right? ) they were fairly honest about how it would be very difficult for the Ford teams having to work with what essentially is a brand new car again due to how much was changed.

No mention of the things I posted though other than a slight mention of the GM teams questioning the new downforce levels while also failing to mention that their concern was before the cut to the span of the wing.

In all honesty I think the Ford teams need to be given one extra test day (to be used before the next round) as compensation for all their previously wasted test sessions regardless of the extra span or not.

I also agree with @ScottPye20 to lessen downforce even further. In this instance they should trim the Camaro's span rather than widening the Fords. This would have the added bonus of giving the GM teams a change to work out for once while also helping even things even further, rather than them happily trundling along gathering more and more data on an unchanged package.

 

[lilcat89]

In Supercars commentary teams defence (yeah I know, right? ) they were fairly honest about how it would be very difficult for the Ford teams having to work with what essentially is a brand new car again due to how much was changed.

...rather than them happily trundling along gathering more and more data on an unchanged package.

That's the real issue with all this tinkering IMO. Ford has had every mechanical issue and basically learning a completely different package than the Camaros, and that isn't even accounting for the number disadvantage the Fords have. With as much fiddling that has gone on with the Fords, I wouldn't be surprised if none the data from Newcastle is even usable anymore. I wont hide my Ford biases, but it's getting ridiculous the one or two Mustangs that can get close to the front, they literally flame out. Not to mention that a few races have ended with no Fords in the top 10. Just farcical claiming equal performance at this point. JW needs to stop whining, I'm going to start calling him Whingecup!

 

[FPV MIC]

I'm going to start calling him Whingecup!

He's earnt it

 

[lilcat89]

He definitely has this season.

 

[Twisteddrift]

I just hope somehow Supercars did something overnight. Obviously, I doubt this would be possible but you’d think that they gotta throw everything at it. And as mentioned before with more eyes on the category for awhile due to Shane’s success at Chicago. You’d think that they do did everything they can to have a great on-track product. But no. It’s been a terrible year for the sport. I just hope that they can end this sooner rather than later.

 

[05XR8]

Great for Supercars to get it right with those Shootout results! Just in time before 2024. Amazing! Hats off to the crew.

 

[Spacegoat]

^ Better later than never.

In Supercars commentary teams defence (yeah I know, right? ) they were fairly honest about how it would be very difficult for the Ford teams having to work with what essentially is a brand new car again due to how much was changed.

Ah, okay. Didn't watch any of the coverage yesterday but fair play to them for that. And yeah, at this point it might be easier to bring the Camaro back in line with the Mustang than the other way around.

Guess we'll see how the race goes though. If the Mustang's can actually keep their tyres alive, they might finally be onto something.

 

[ScottPuss20]

JW needs to stop whining, I'm going to start calling him Whingecup!

Took you long enough.

 

[05XR8]

Watch8ng Super2, I wonder when it’s time, will most of the field be Camaros? Or even that? Would a team be even willing to buy a Gen3 car?
If it’s the same two year deal before cars are sold to S2, I’d lobby to skip a generation.

 

[Com Fox]

Tickford responds to two-car speculation

au.motorsport.com

There's something bonkers with the scale back for oversea races plan with Tickford could potentially be the main target for it.

I don't agree with the plan whatsoever and seems really stupid for little payout but if this is true, wouldn't BJR be the better target to even out the Camaros and Mustangs. I hope Tickford either doesn't go down or spreads them to more Mustang teams

 

[lilcat89]

Took you long enough.

I don't remember him whining this much as a driver though.

Thoughts from the races this weekend.
First, this had to be the worst weekend for the commentary team as far as missing things that are on the screen. Usually, they do a great job, but it was suboptimal this weekend. Second, the Fords have the one-lap pace to run now, but now keeping tires on the rear seems to be impossible. I don't understand why every Ford team didn't go to a 3-stop on Sunday after seeing Mostert's race pace on Saturday. There's clearly more work to do on tire longevity with the Mustang, but this weekend showed some promise. Still only 2 Mustangs in the top ten on Sunday though, but I'm sure since Anton won, JW will politic that everything is fixed and level now.

 

[Twisteddrift]

I don't remember him whining this much as a driver though.

Thoughts from the races this weekend.
First, this had to be the worst weekend for the commentary team as far as missing things that are on the screen. Usually, they do a great job, but it was suboptimal this weekend. Second, the Fords have the one-lap pace to run now, but now keeping tires on the rear seems to be impossible. I don't understand why every Ford team didn't go to a 3-stop on Sunday after seeing Mostert's race pace on Saturday. There's clearly more work to do on tire longevity with the Mustang, but this weekend showed some promise. Still only 2 Mustangs in the top ten on Sunday though, but I'm sure since Anton won, JW will politic that everything is fixed and level now.

Yeah there’s still some work to be done. Also don’t forget ADP had extra tyres due to the DNF the day before which made his strategy much more convincing to do.

But yeah it’s just bloody annoying that we’re still talking about it and that they still haven’t gotten it right. Hopefully SMP updates, which there will be will make the cars more closer.

 

[FPV MIC]

Hopefully someone, anyone can come up with a fix for all the power steering rack issues too or it will be a very long Bathurst.

Mandatory power steering rack changes maybe?

 

[lilcat89]

Hopefully someone, anyone can come up with a fix for all the power steering rack issues too or it will be a very long Bathurst.

Mandatory power steering rack changes maybe?

From what I've heard is that the racks are off-the-shelf parts from a commercial van. They clearly aren't up to the standard that they need to be at. Apparently, T8 designed one for Supercars as well, but was rejected on cost. It's getting ridiculous how often they're failing. Sandown might be worse than Bathurst, just because of the kerb strikes. Why couldn't this be a carryover part from the last cars?

Yeah there’s still some work to be done. Also don’t forget ADP had extra tyres due to the DNF the day before which made his strategy much more convincing to do.

But yeah it’s just bloody annoying that we’re still talking about it and that they still haven’t gotten it right. Hopefully SMP updates, which there will be will make the cars more closer.

I didn't forget ADP had another set, and he was able them to great effect. Maybe the real solution is to give the Mustangs an extra set of tires per weekend. It's pretty clear that there is also issues with dirty air vs. clean air and tire longevity as well. There were 6 Fords in the top ten at the start of Sunday, at the end, 2 in the top ten. It's not a quali pace problem, it's the pace over a race stint that there is still a disparity. Another thing I noticed, SVG would have been 2nd at the end without that first lap spin. That's crazy how he managed his comeback.

 

[FPV MIC]

From what I've heard is that the racks are off-the-shelf parts from a commercial van. They clearly aren't up to the standard that they need to be at. Apparently, T8 designed one for Supercars as well, but was rejected on cost. It's getting ridiculous how often they're failing. Sandown might be worse than Bathurst, just because of the kerb strikes. Why couldn't this be a carryover part from the last cars?

I doubt they're an off the shelf rack as these are very an very expensive unit at just under $10K, $5.5K for the cast housing alone, and they were supposed to be getting a redesign after Melbourne. Brad Jones did a piece on it a while back, but diplomatically doesn't say who designed it.

The reason they're not a carryover part is because virtually nothing from the old cars fits on these, and I'm pretty sure they weren't a control part like they are now.

Another thing I noticed, SVG would have been 2nd at the end without that first lap spin. That's crazy how he managed his comeback.

He was just about to pit which would've seen him fall well back in the field when a Safety Car was called for a piece of debris that was no longer on the track. It saved his bacon and killed the race for all the 3 stoppers bar Anton (as he had the extra rubber). Still a good drive by SVG though.

 

[lilcat89]

I doubt they're an off the shelf rack as these are very an very expensive unit at just under $10K, $5.5K for the cast housing alone, and they were supposed to be getting a redesign after Melbourne. Brad Jones did a piece on it a while back, but diplomatically doesn't say who designed it.

I was just referencing something I heard on the Castrol Motorsport news podcast this morning. It's quite possible I'm wrong, but either way, the racks just are too fragile for these cars.

The reason they're not a carryover part is because virtually nothing from the old cars fits on these, and I'm pretty sure they weren't a control part like they are now.

Ok. It makes sense.

 

[FPV MIC]

I was just referencing something I heard on the Castrol Motorsport news podcast this morning. It's quite possible I'm wrong, but either way, the racks just are too fragile for these cars.

After listening to that podcast I think it's a mixture of of-the-shelf and bespoke. It sounded like SB was saying of-the-shelf while AvL said it had some internal parts from a commercial unit. I think Andrew van Leeuwen's version was probably the correct one (some internal parts from a commercial unit), but I think the actual housing and other internals are a Supercars part. Like you though, I'm not positive and I could be wrong.

I've always said it should be electric power steering unit to do away with the stupid steering-column-through-the-chassis situation and I don't know why they can't commission someone to design a RHD one for them. It's been done many times here before for very limited run LHD to RHD road going car and truck conversions (I know for sure of the F Series trucks including Raptors and I'm pretty sure on the Rams, Silverado's and Escalades too) so it can't be that far fetched to do it for a race car for what is supposed to be our premier race series.

 

[lilcat89]

After listening to that podcast I think it's a mixture of of-the-shelf and bespoke. It sounded like SB was saying of-the-shelf while AvL said it had some internal parts from a commercial unit. I think Andrew van Leeuwen's version was probably the correct one (some internal parts from a commercial unit), but I think the actual housing and other internals are a Supercars part. Like you though, I'm not positive and I could be wrong.

I've always said it should be electric power steering unit to do away with the stupid steering-column-through-the-chassis situation and I don't know why they can't commission someone to design a RHD one for them. It's been done many times here before for very limited run LHD to RHD road going car and truck conversions (I know for sure of the F Series trucks including Raptors and I'm pretty sure on the Rams, Silverado's and Escalades too) so it can't be that far fetched to do it for a race car for what is supposed to be our premier race series.

That's very true, I had no idea that your RHD conversions used electric power steering, although I'm pretty sure most everything is EPS now anyway. These new cars are so half-baked right now, it's just sad now. The cars should have been tested halfway through last year, instead of what, two weeks before the first round. I may be wrong, but weren't there a few teams that were in a mad dash to finish building their cars in the week before Newcastle. They should have taken this year to test and iron out parity and all these reliability issues and come fully sorted to Newcastle 2024. This year has been a write off with all the garbage going on. Now, Tickford is talking about selling off 2 of their teams for Supercars. That would be the nail in the coffin for Ford's involvement if that happens, I think.

 

[FPV MIC]

That's very true, I had no idea that your RHD conversions used electric power steering, although I'm pretty sure most everything is EPS now anyway. These new cars are so half-baked right now, it's just sad now. The cars should have been tested halfway through last year, instead of what, two weeks before the first round. I may be wrong, but weren't there a few teams that were in a mad dash to finish building their cars in the week before Newcastle. They should have taken this year to test and iron out parity and all these reliability issues and come fully sorted to Newcastle 2024. This year has been a write off with all the garbage going on.

The newer ones use EPS but not the older car conversions, they're still using rack and pinion. Fly by wire throttle (ETC) has made conversions easier too. I found this out while looking into buying a Raptor 6 or 7 years back.

These new cars are so half-baked right now, it's just sad now. The cars should have been tested halfway through last year, instead of what, two weeks before the first round. I may be wrong, but weren't there a few teams that were in a mad dash to finish building their cars in the week before Newcastle. They should have taken this year to test and iron out parity and all these reliability issues and come fully sorted to Newcastle 2024. This year has been a write off with all the garbage going on.

I agree 100% and you're right that some teams were struggling to finish their cars by Newcastle. There was even talk by T8 that if Supercars looked into things that every car would be non-compliant due to the rush. That was part of their on-air defence for their illegal icebox 😉.

Now, Tickford is talking about selling off 2 of their teams for Supercars. That would be the nail in the coffin for Ford's involvement if that happens, I think.

Supercars has finally got the split between manufacturers more even and now this could be happening . At least it's only being looked at from a business perspective at the moment and nothing is set in stone.

They should just sell the 26th charter to BRT and keep all cars on the grid. I don't see this fascination with going overseas ending well (NZ aside of course) as hasn't ever been very successful before.

 

[lilcat89]

I agree 100% and you're right that some teams were struggling to finish their cars by Newcastle. There was even talk by T8 that if Supercars looked into things that every car would be non-compliant due to the rush. That was part of their on-air defence for their illegal icebox 😉.

I do remember T8 saying that. The thing with that situation was if they believed they were right, then why change it over to the legal side the next day. That says that T8 knew it was illegal the entire time.

Supercars has finally got the split between manufacturers more even and now this could be happening . At least it's only being looked at from a business perspective at the moment and nothing is set in stone.

Yeah, at least, looked at. I suspect it won't happen since the charters are probably worth way more than Supercars is offering. I should probably say that I hope it doesn't happen.

They should just sell the 26th charter to BRT and keep all cars on the grid. I don't see this fascination with going overseas ending well (NZ aside of course) as hasn't ever been very successful before.

I get it either. Just because they did it in the '10s doesn't mean it should happen now. It was great to have the opportunity to see it here in the states, but I don't think it broadened the fan base enough to warrant the trip. I never thought of NZ to be an overseas race until Supercars started talking about it as one. It's a national tin-top series, not and international formula, just stay at home in Aus and NZ.

 

[FPV MIC]

@lilcat89 I was just listening to this podcast (at 10 min 30 secs in) it said the power steering rack was modified previously and is now fully bespoke, but it's turned out to be fragile as well.

Interestingly, one of them said the current aero package is what Ford originally wanted but it was disallowed. I dare say that's with the wider span that Supercars announced but that didn't turn up at the last round (we all know why).

 

[IforceV8]

Sooooooo, what's the best way to watch Supers in the US? SVGs NASCAR win today reminded me that I need to better attempt actually watching this series.

MAVTV is showing race recaps and these guys https://www.speedsport1.com/ are supposedly doing live coverage if you want to stay up late and watch.

 

[Twisteddrift]

Newcastle-Port Stephens permanent circuit open to Supercars talks - Speedcafe.com

Management of the new Circuit Italia venue in the Newcastle-Port Stephens area is open to a conversation with Supercars about hosting an event.

www.speedcafe.com

I like the sound of this.

 

[Northstar]

Kostecki is going NASCAR racing at Indy.

 

[Spacegoat]

Oh, cool. Not only are we going to be lose one car from the grid (I guess it's all but confirmed now). We're also going to be losing the pre Bathurst enduro race as well...

Supercars on course for Singapore GP deal

Supercars looks like racing at the F1 Singapore Grand Prix as soon as next year. Image: Moy/XPB Images Supercars is

www.speedcafe.com