America: are we too arrogant?

[Carl.]

Well, I read for about 1 minute, then tried looking for somebody that quoted me. Why didn't anyone quote me?

You have two posts including this one out of 300 posts, and the other one is one line long. Did you mean that for another thread?

 

[Danoff]

so how come that people still give up on sight of the slightest problems with any kind of technology? people want technology to work, they don't want to know how, as long as it works. most people don't even know how the car they drive works or a how their pc works. then they fill their diesel up with ordinary gas or wonder why their printer does not work when they have not installed the drivers for it.

I said people were curious about things. I didn't say they were smart or that they tried to understand everything.

people definatly don't want to know how something works as long as it does work,

Extrodinarily cynical view of the world.

and when it once does not work they call someone who they think knows how it works and let him fix it.

Funny how you defeat your own argument right here.

and why do you only pic those two sentences out of my post and reply on them instead of trying to answer the questions that i have asked?

Pick is spelled with a k. I only mention it because I think you spelled it that way intentionally.

Were you talking about this?

furthermore, i want to say something about the drugs, because this is another good example; as a matter of fact, alcohol is far more dangerous than marihuana.

Who cares how dangerous it is? Isn't it up to the person taking the drug to assume the risk and responsibility? You could make that argument for Tylenol or french fries.

 

[Pistachio]

...like I said. We were (and are) willing to do what it takes to preserve freedom.

Well, the thing is it has very little to do with "freedom" as you put it. We will take one of the earliest examples, and one that it quite important to me. The first use of the CIA to overthrow a government. In 1951 Iran elects (democraticaly by all accounts) a Prime Minister who wanted to enact a nationalist policy of buying the oil industry of Iran which was previously controlled by British buisnesses. The British ask the US for help in resolving the issue. The US eventualy uses the CIA to overthrow the Prime Minister and enstates the hugely unpopular Shah. About 20 years pass under the Shahs rule, in which oil contracts are handed to US and British buisness, who proceed to make huge profits. Then there is a hugely popular Islamic revolution along with a huge resentment of the US for it's actions back in the 50's. The US later supports Iraq in it's war against Iran, supplying chemical and biological weapons, the result is a million deaths.

I fail to see what part of US actions in any of this furthers the case of "freedom", what i DO see though is how the US has protected buisness interests.

"Don't see how we cared about Russian oppression?

That was the whole point of the cold war."

The US could care less about how the Russians treated people, the main problem with Cuba for instance was that it would "spread the Castroian ideal of taking matters into your own hands" which is very appealing to the opressed masses of Latin America. The USSR was dangerouse because it provided a model for "modernization within a single generation",

People have a thirst for knowledge. That's why the need to make a profit is exactly what drives media to deliver the facts. When another news program shows up with more of the story, people change the channel on the old program.

This is a naive way to think of it. As Vladimir said truth doesn't necessarily sell. The very fact that the media shapes our conception of political reality means that the truth is irrelevant, because what is said by the media will be accepted as fact.

 

[High-Test]

Ok, the US ****ed up. Big deal. Germany has ****ed up, England has ****ed up,Russia has ****ed up, China has ****ed up, practically the whole world has politically ****ed up something in the past. More recently, the UN ****ed up over the oil for food program. While I'm not arrogant about being american, I'm DAMN PROUD OF IT at the same time.

To Quote George Carlin, "Politics is another word for complete bull****."
(Mods can edit this post if they wish)

 

[Pistachio]

Ok, the US ****ed up. Big deal. Germany has ****ed up, England has ****ed up,Russia has ****ed up, China has ****ed up, practically the whole world has politically ****ed up something in the past. More recently, the UN ****ed up over the oil for food program. While I'm not arrogant about being american, I'm DAMN PROUD OF IT at the same time.


(Mods can edit this post if they wish)

Yeah they have, but you don't just "accidently" cause a catastrophy with "the best intentions". I say bring the people responsible to trial, all of them. This includes bringing every US president of the last 50 years (more like 100 years actualy). Bring in the criminal governments of Russia, Colombia, Suadi Arabia, Kuwait, UK, Panama, El Salvador, Israel, point being, don't forget to charge the friends of the US among others. But above all the US should not be immune to being charged, if Saddam is charged for his crimes soo too should the British and American administrations that supported him.

 

[ledhed]

The US did not supply chemical or biological weapons to Iraq . What proof do you have to offer ? Even the small bit of support offered to Iraq during there long war with Iran was limited and mostly consisted of intelligence sharing. unless you consider the patrols to keep Iran from sinking neutral shipping "support". Iraqs army consisted of Soviet block equipment so arms sales even if we wanted to sell them where inconsistent with what was used. When you make statements that are so far from the realm of believability you can't expect what you say to be taken seriously . Just take any accusation you choose to make and throw it up there and expect people to take it as fact ? And you say the media is not to be believed, that we are all sheep sucumbing to thier adgenda ....You do not give people credit for using there own judgement. Most people can tell when someone is yanking the crank. I'd advise anyone interested to look into the so called installation of the Shah of Iran, I do believe the CIA was involved but I'm unshure of the facts , I do not remember the circumstances, but its worth a look. I do not believe the US ever supported a dictator over a freely elected individual , usually they picked the best out of a bad crowd, but again I am not shure and its worth looking into.

 

[Pistachio]

The US did not supply chemical or biological weapons to Iraq . What proof do you have to offer ?

Googled and got this as the first result.
http://www.rense.com/general32/suppe.htm

Even the small bit of support offered to Iraq during there long war with Iran was limited and mostly consisted of intelligence sharing.

The support was substantial, in fact Iraq was a good friend of the US for 20 years of Saddams 30 year rule (the 20 most violent years). And was in fact trained by the US. Us administrations called Saddam "our kind of guy" along with general Suharto the murderous ruler of Indonesia, also a US client and friend.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/husseinindex.htm
Another short googling turned up this.

Iraqs army consisted of Soviet block equipment so arms sales even if we wanted to sell them where inconsistent with what was used.

Substantiate with sources, im aware that a minority of arms were soviet, but you make it sound like it was in total.

And you say the media is not to be believed, that we are all sheep sucumbing to thier adgenda ....You do not give people credit for using there own judgement. Most people can tell when someone is yanking the crank.

Read Necessary Illusions by Noam Chomsky if you have the time, this is a whole new can of worms. Besides the problem isn't blatent lieing and fabrication (though it happens), the problem is the range of ideas allowed expression, and the veriety in stories.

I'd advise anyone interested to look into the so called installation of the Shah of Iran, I do believe the CIA was involved but I'm unshure of the facts , I do not remember the circumstances, but its worth a look. I do not believe the US ever supported a dictator over a freely elected individual , usually they picked the best out of a bad crowd, but again I am not shure and its worth looking into.

Believe it, i was there, the involvement was substantial to say the least.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/25/1534210&mode=thread&tid=47

 

[vladimir]

I said people were curious about things. I didn't say they were smart or that they tried to understand everything.

is it of any help for democracy and freedom when people are curious ernough to buy a paper but still so stupid not to realize that the tabloid they have bought is lieing* to them every day.

(*to lie; i never got the spelling of that word right, but i am sure you can help me if it is wrong!?)

Extrodinarily cynical view of the world.

sometimes the truth is cynical.

Funny how you defeat your own argument right here.

why? i always said there is a minority that wants to know how stuff works and is interested in something.

Pick is spelled with a k. I only mention it because I think you spelled it that way intentionally.

thanks for telling me.

Who cares how dangerous it is? Isn't it up to the person taking the drug to assume the risk and responsibility? You could make that argument for Tylenol or french fries.

sure, but politicians won't even let me try it out because most of them say marihuana was more dangerous. and people believe that even if its not true...so much about curiosity.

Were you talking about this?

about this and about other questions and arguments, i can repeat them if you like:

- when tabloids sell in the millions and serious newspaper in the thousands, what does that tell us about the thirst for facts?

- why is alcohol legal and marihuana illegal?


and some more questions:

- why was clinton almost impeached due to a 40 million investigation after he screwed lewinsky, whereas president bush, who started a war with lies, who betrayed his allies, who used fake documents, who broke lots of international laws and conventions, is still doing business?

- why has janett jacksons nipple caused more outrage throughout america than anything else since 9/11?

 

[K_Speed]

... and your point is?

my ****ing point is, why one ****ing country this god damn with its bull**** SUV surburban dodge crap, has to use 20 ****ing million of oil barrels one freakin day! Get the same population in Japan and they only use half of what the US does.

The ****ing problem with the US is, they dont give a **** if comes to energy, they just dont give a ****. We all know that, so dotn argue with me on that. If you ever get the topic energy in the european schools the US is always topic number one. The "wasting" country...some people just dont get what will happen if we run out of oil.
What is the ****ing point, You live in god damn LA, in the middle of a huge ass city, everyone drives a freakin SUV to drive 5 minutes to Ralphs. And change ure oil every freakin year, for what? When it comes to energy the americans need some more respect.
I respect american schools, I respect their economy, I respect their freedom of economy, I respect their women, I respect my family that lives there....but those damn ass SUV'S and other low technology crap that uses much electricity for nothing.

I mean, we in europe are paying our asses for gasoline. We sometimes cant even drive cause we dont have enough money for it. Or we have to waste our money on gas instead of a nice evening meal, it just sometimes pisses me off! And to see the people over there in the west waste gasoline as if it was nothing, as if its not important. People die because of oil, because some foolish bastards need oil for themselves...

 

[TheCracker]

Quote:
Its a greater shame that an idiot like Bush let his 'puppeteers' force him into a war that has so far killed as many US service men and women as the 9/11 attacks killed innocent citizens.

It's only a shame if it doesn't make the US safer.

Since when has invading Iraq made the US safer?

Has Iraq ever threatend US citizens?

Do the thousands of US (and other countries) soldiers and civillians killed by terrorists in Iraq since the invasion believe its made things safer?

 

[Solid Fro]

Is it America's fault that your economy sucks? We helped you rebuild after Nazi rule, but you blame us because your country can't keep it under control?

Real nice logic, K Speed.

We use more oil than Japan because we use it in other things besides are vehicles. Power plants, houses, transportation, aircraft, ships, etc. all need oil. Japan is a very small country compared to the US. The culture in Japan is less dependent on automobiles than America is.

Low technology vehicles? What decade are you living in? Onboard computers control everything from automatic shifting of gears, steering control, anti-lock breaking, GPS guidance, to even how warm you want your seat to be.

If you read Bush's energy plan (which I doubt you did), you would have known the US is trying to get away from foreign sources of oil, phase in lower emission vehicles, and encourage alternative fuel sources such as hydrogen.

You blame the US for your problems because the US is the 'Big Bad Bully' of the world. You refuse to solve your own problems and are blinded by your Anti-Americanism to see the cold, hard truth.

 

[Solid Fro]

Quote:
Its a greater shame that an idiot like Bush let his 'puppeteers' force him into a war that has so far killed as many US service men and women as the 9/11 attacks killed innocent citizens.

Can someone get me a barf bag, please? You Anti-Americans need to get your facts straight.

2,998 people lost their lives on 9/11.

894 American soldiers lost their lives in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Either you failed math class or you're blind. 2,998 does not equal 894.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/ (you can't get more biased than CNN)
http://www.september11victims.com/september11Victims/victims_list.htm

I feel safer with dictators like Saddam out of power. I believe the whole world is safer that the madman is finally gone for good. No more charades with the UN, no more Oil for Food scandals, no more genocide, no more illegal weapons (includes WMD), and no more violating laws such as the No-Fly Zone and 17 UN sanctions to disarm.

 

[TheCracker]

We use more oil than Japan because we use it in other things besides are vehicles. Power plants, houses, transportation, aircraft, ships, etc. all need oil. Japan is a very small country compared to the US.

And Japan doesn't us oil in the same way? - its got nothing to do with the size of the country - the figures are for Barrels per head of population.

The culture in Japan is less dependent on automobiles than America is.

Have you ever seen any of the major cities? - they make L.A. and NewYork look rural! Japanese cities are majorly conjested.

If you read Bush's energy plan (which I doubt you did), you would have known the US is trying to get away from foreign sources of oil, phase in lower emission vehicles, and encourage alternative fuel sources such as hydrogen.

Gee, you really are suckered by Bush's media mogul friends aren't you!

You blame the US for your problems because the US is the 'Big Bad Bully' of the world. You refuse to solve your own problems and are blinded by your Anti-Americanism to see the cold, hard truth.

The American economy and its subsidised strangle hold on many industries is chocking other countries economies who can't afford to subsidise like yourselves.

 

[K_Speed]

Is it America's fault that your economy sucks? We helped you rebuild after Nazi rule, but you blame us because your country can't keep it under control?

Real nice logic, K Speed.

We use more oil than Japan because we use it in other things besides are vehicles. Power plants, houses, transportation, aircraft, ships, etc. all need oil. Japan is a very small country compared to the US. The culture in Japan is less dependent on automobiles than America is.

Low technology vehicles? What decade are you living in? Onboard computers control everything from automatic shifting of gears, steering control, anti-lock breaking, GPS guidance, to even how warm you want your seat to be.

If you read Bush's energy plan (which I doubt you did), you would have known the US is trying to get away from foreign sources of oil, phase in lower emission vehicles, and encourage alternative fuel sources such as hydrogen.

You blame the US for your problems because the US is the 'Big Bad Bully' of the world. You refuse to solve your own problems and are blinded by your Anti-Americanism to see the cold, hard truth.

OK, first of all I aint german. And also dont put that Nazi **** in here again. This is about america now, not Germany. And the gas prices arnt just this high, but also in other Countries in europe where gas prices are even higher.

automatic shifting of gears. woooooowww duuuddeee, thats amazing!(now plz dont compare german car technology with american, ok, cause I think germany is just a bit better, I mean just a bit. we see how nice the viper takes turns, whoooho ) how warm you want ure seat to be, thats not what I meant. There are other things like fans, lights, tv's, stereos, washing machines etc etc. In Europe, mostly in Germany, they produce those products and try to get the least power usage. Same with the cars. Ever seen the 'smart'? One fourth of a suburban. These things when everyone has em save energy. Maybe u know the company Bosh, wich produce like washing machines, and dishwashers. They have em in the US and theyre great. But not many people know them and buy those huge ones, from I dont know wich company. Ever been to Harley Davidson industry in Pennsylvania? All german technology. The machines are.

Top 3 energy usage companies are USA 1st then China then Japan. they all are industry Countries, yes. But there are other things in the household that are just plain stupid to do and that waste alot of energy. (ever seen those "save energy" commercials on tv?)

Now I bet you guys think Im anti USA and totally for Germany. If it comes to me, I hate Germany, I hate its politicians, I hate the way the schools work and how the whole damn country works. But in Energy etc. I have to respect this country.

When I step out of my door to get gasoline, I have to pay around 100-120$. And I always wonder what I could have bought for that money.

 

[Solid Fro]

And Japan doesn't us oil in the same way? - its got nothing to do with the size of the country - the figures are for Barrels per head of population.

Have you ever seen any of the major cities? - they make L.A. and NewYork look rural! Japanese cities are majorly conjested.

The Japanese are less dependent on automobiles than the US (didn't I already say that?) The Japanese don't have to transport goods and supplies thousands of miles across land, that reason alone will increase are usage of oil.

Gee, you really are suckered by Bush's media mogul friends aren't you!

Why don't you read his plan instead of insulting it? Once again, you refuse to see the truth, due to your hatred.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/

 

[TheCracker]

Can someone get me a barf bag, please? You Anti-Americans need to get your facts straight.

2,998 people lost their lives on 9/11.

894 American soldiers lost their lives in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Either you failed math class or you're blind. 2,998 does not equal 894.

I feel safer with dictators like Saddam out of power. I believe the whole world is safer that the madman is finally gone for good. No more charades with the UN, no more Oil for Food scandals, no more genocide, no more illegal weapons (includes WMD), and no more violating laws such as the No-Fly Zone and 17 UN sanctions to disarm.

Yes i admit my figures were a little out, but CNN puts the figure at over 1000 now, and since on average there are 80 further deaths a month (a figure on the rise) and since that doesn't include the civilians or other nations allied armies killed the figures don't look too far off.

The US still happily supports other Despotic and oppressive regimes - thinking Saudi Arabia here.

 

[Solid Fro]

automatic shifting of gears. woooooowww duuuddeee, thats amazing!(now plz dont compare german car technology with american, ok, cause I think germany is just a bit better, I mean just a bit.

Daimler Chrysler owns Mercedes-Benz. Looks like you're riding around in an American car now with American technology.

how warm you want ure seat to be, thats not what I meant. There are other things like fans, lights, tv's, stereos, washing machines etc etc.

Last time I checked, you bought the same PS2 that I did. Since I'm American, I automatically waste more energy with my PS2 than you do.

But there are other things in the household that are just plain stupid to do and that waste alot of energy. (ever seen those "save energy" commercials on tv?)

Last time I checked, just about everything sold in the US is now Energy Star compliant. In other words, saves energy. My computer, my refrigerator, washer and dryer, microwave, stove, dishwasher, and my television are all Energy Star compliant.

http://www.energystar.gov/

When I step out of my door to get gasoline, I have to pay around 100-120$. And I always wonder what I could have bought for that money.

Don't blame America, blame OPEC.

 

[TheCracker]

The Japanese are less dependent on automobiles than the US (didn't I already say that?) The Japanese don't have to transport goods and supplies thousands of miles across land, that reason alone will increase are usage of oil.

Not by double it doesn't!

Why don't you read his plan instead of insulting it? Once again, you refuse to see the truth, due to your hatred.

Yes i've read it thanks - its great, it really is! and once Bush and his chronies stop cutting the amount of polution his campaign investers are aloud to pump out behind its citizens backs the better it will be!

Viper Zero - your surnames not Bush is it?

 

[Arwin]

Is it America's fault that your economy sucks? We helped you rebuild after Nazi rule, but you blame us because your country can't keep it under control?

Real nice logic, K Speed.

You misunderstand him. He did not say his economy sucks. Many countries in Europe have taxed fuel highly to reflect among others costs to the environment, respect for the earth's natural reserves. Taxes are higher for heavier cars as well as cars with a higher capacity engine, even in countries like Norway which is an oil-exporter.

This encourages more efficient cars being built as well as being bought, but also makes driving a car much more expensive, too expensive even for some, which is what K Speed meant to point out.

Although the U.S. also uses a lot of fuel in warfare, and for airconditioning large cities that have been built in deserts, a large part of the extra consumption of fossil fuels is due to the inefficient cars you drive. The average car in Europe gets about 2-3 times more miles out of the gallon than the average car in the U.S. This of course has little to do with gadgets, but with focus. Fuel prices do not reflect real costs in the U.S. and therefore allows the focus to be on big, guzzling engines and inefficient airconditioners. But of course this will change, and even Bush realises that the dependence on oil is going to be able to hurt the U.S. bad eventually. It's all a matter of timing. But I think with the economical emergence of China and the fast rise of car and hence oil use over there, the point in time where it is going to hurt will come much sooner so it will be interesting to see if we can get the timing right and how it will impact society. It could well mean that the low end of the U.S. car market will suddenly become unaffordable for instance, because these cars use too much fuel and that type of fuel has become too expensive. I expect that bio-fuel will have to fill the gap between oil based fuel and new energy sources such as hydrogen.

 

[Solid Fro]

Yes i admit my figures were a little out, but CNN puts the figure at over 1000 now, and since on average there are 80 further deaths a month (a figure on the rise) and since that doesn't include the civilians or other nations allied armies killed the figures don't look too far off.

The US still happily supports other Despotic and oppressive regimes - thinking Saudi Arabia here.

Haha! Now you're adding more numbers? It still doesn't add up. You run your mouth before you check your facts. You sound just like a Democrat.

Saudi Arabia is over-runned with terrorist. Helping Saudi Arabia may not be in our best interest, but hunting down terrorists is.

 

[Pistachio]

The US still happily supports other Despotic and oppressive regimes - thinking Saudi Arabia here.

Lol, you can do better! Take a pick of puppet regimes and supported despots.
Suharto of Indonesia
Saddam Hussein
Shah of Iran
Saudi Royal Family
Colombia
Panama
El Salvador
Kuwait
Brazil
Egypt (under Sadat)
Nicaragua (before the Sandinistas)
Cuba (under the Batista)
Putkin and his terrorist war against the Chechnyans

There a re more i assure you, im drawing a kind of blank atthe moment.

Can someone get me a barf bag, please? You Anti-Americans need to get your facts straight.

No body is anti-american, i assure you the very concept of hating americans because they are americans is reminiscent of Soviet Russia, where dissidents and people who talked out against the government were labeled as "anti-soviet" and cast away. A porpogandistic term that shouldn't be taken seriously.
People don't like the US government because of what they have done. Some hate the US people because they see the people as responsible too.
I mean even bin Laden cleary expressed why he acted out the 9/11 atrocity, he said plainly that it was because of "the US occupation of Saudi Arabia", not because you guys are "a free and riteous people, because he is jealous or resentful of your power".

I feel safer with dictators like Saddam out of power. I believe the whole world is safer that the madman is finally gone for good.

I don't see why you should, even Israeli intelligence officals dismissed the notion that Iraq had any real power to cause harm to even to nations close by let alone the US. Condeleeza Rice said "if they do acquire WMD, their weapons will be unusable because any attempt to use them will bring national obliteration." Even Iraqs neighbours expressed there deep disagreement with the US and it's views of the supposed Iraqi threat. Long time enemies Iran thought the idea was ludicrous. Nobody seemed threatened by Iraq but the US, UK and Australia.

No more charades with the UN, no more Oil for Food scandals, no more genocide, no more illegal weapons (includes WMD), and no more violating laws such as the No-Fly Zone and 17 UN sanctions to disarm.

I find it funny you mentioning the genocides. Do you mean the one that killed the Kurds with US support? Or the one that killed Iranians with US support? The US's good friend Turkey is commiting genocide against the Kurds of eastern Turkey right now, but it warrents little reporting in the US, as Turkey is an ally, much as Saddams genocide didn't warrent any reporting until Saddam was considered an enemy, some 5 or so years later.

The US ran near daily bombing runs into Iraq through the no-fly zone via Turkey, especialy in i do believe it was '99 coinciding with a UN order to cease.

17 UN sanctions to disarm? Do you mean 17 UN resolutions? I find it ironic to talk about international law and due process considering that the US has broken international law many times, in fact the US was the only country to ever be convicted of "Unlawful use of force" by the World Court, for its terrorist war against Nicaragua. This amounts to terrorism, as it was "an unlawful use of force for political reasons".
Also 17 UN resolutions is a miniscule number of breeches considering close ally Israel was at a hefty 75 back in 2001. Undoubtably adding a few more, one that is relevant right now is the resolution to stop the building of the "security fence" through Palastinian land. But if Iraq is bounded by international law (having not broken as many laws or resultions as the US or Israel) why isn't the US, Israel or any of its opressive client states and friends?

 

[TheCracker]

Haha! Now you're adding more numbers? It still doesn't add up. You run your mouth before you check your facts. You sound just like a Democrat.

If i was an American i would be a Democrat - and proud!

Saudi Arabia is over-runned with terrorist. Helping Saudi Arabia may not be in our best interest, but hunting down terrorists is.

You've got to ask the question why its overun with terrorists?

- Because Saudia Arabia is a country run by leaders who care little for the majority of their citizens welfare. And who are supported financially by huge corporations (like the Bin Ladens various concerns) - sounds a bit like another country i know...


'High-five' to Pistachio for his itelligent reply

 

[vladimir]

Daimler Chrysler owns Mercedes-Benz. Looks like you're riding around in an American car now with American technology.

do you know how that sentence suits the topics title?
daimler chrysler own mercedes-benz, yes indeed, but daimler chrysler is not an american company.
daimler chrysler is a german company, situated in the german town of stuttgart and the board of management of daimler chrysler consists of 10 germans and 1 american.

 

[Pistachio]

If i was an American i would be a Democrat - and proud!

Dude the US democrats are almost as bad as the republicans. People seem to think there is a huge difference in each of their policies. There is no powerful left in the US its either ultra-right or super-right. I mean Clinton ran the same kind of foreign policies, except instead of going to complete war with Iraq, he would do daily bombing runs and strange them of medicine.

 

[TheCracker]

Your right, there is no 'Left or Right' in American or British Politics at the moment, its all right-wing now - its just the Democrats and British Labour Party at least pretend to be a little left-wing.

 

[Pistachio]

Ya same with Aus, same with any country with a well developed propaganda system.

Right now we are seeing the rise of the Greens Party in Aus, they have more popularity than ever (which means like a total of two representatives in the senate ). The last bastion of decency in the Aus government. Sometimes i wish i was living in Sweden they have meaningful social reforms and they bother to do what a government is supposed to do (for the most part) which is look after it's people and do what’s in their interest. Many people from the US, UK and Aus don't realize how much better things could be.

 

[TheCracker]

Greens are getting more and more support in the UK now, so are the traditionally 3rd largest party - the Liberal democrats. Unfortunatly the UKIP (UK independance party) and BNP (british national party) are getting a strong hold as well!

 

[Arwin]

I'm just glad we have a 'normal' democracy with coalition governments. That way you actually have a real and meaningful choice.

 

[Pistachio]

I'm just glad we have a 'normal' democracy with coalition governments. That way you actually have a real and meaningful choice.

Yeah, i always say, for a model of good government, look to the Scandinavians (Netherlands is close enough and Germany has meaningful and extensive workers rights and social reforms aswell).

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, i always say, for a model of good government, look to the Scandinavians (Netherlands is close enough and Germany has meaningful and extensive workers rights and social reforms aswell).

Well those are not completely the same of course - a good social security system goes hand in hand with how people look at each other in society. Some believe you should take care of each other, others believe you should take care of yourself. I guess on average we're pretty hot on taking care of each other here, compared to most parts of the world. The last time I saw any figures on this, Sweden and the Netherlands were the two countries with the lowest percentage of poverty in the world. Note that we aren't also the wealthiest two countries in the world, so it's not just a matter of being able to afford it.