An open letter to those that are better.

[jrbabbitt]

This is an open letter to those who are " better "

Just because you are better does not make you privileged, does not give you the right to run off the road those that are "slow".

It does not give you the right to ruin the fun and race of those that are not as good.
I am one of those that is not good, I'm average, yes maybe above average and I'm trying my damndest to improve.
I'm also very happy to have a good race but it always seems to get ruined by somebody who is impatient and cannot wait for the right time to make a decent pass therefore he feels it's his right to push me out of the way, shove me off track, and or put me into a wall.

I am sick and tired of this behavior, I enjoy the daily races I try to have fun with them, I do try to raise clean and when I do not I back off, apologize, and try to resume the race as best I can, others I've seen just barge their way through not caring about ruining other people's enjoyment and experience in racing. This has got to stop, please.

 

[Monkey Man]

I agree with the sentiment but unfortunately I reckon this sort of thing will never stop; there'll always be someone.

Terence Lallave, who's streams I've been following for a long time, thought that joining LFM for ACC would "solve" this "problem" for him.

Turns out that he has a much-better chance of experiencing a clean race in 2nd or 3rd-split events than top split. That apparent sense of entitlement you mentioned seems stronger the higher up the rankings you go. It could be explained away simply in terms of competitive drive(!), but IMHO a sense of entitlement is bound to creep in there for many peeps.

 

[Imari]

This is an open letter to those who are " better "

Just because you are better does not make you privileged, does not give you the right to run off the road those that are "slow".

It does not give you the right to ruin the fun and race of those that are not as good.
I am one of those that is not good, I'm average, yes maybe above average and I'm trying my damndest to improve.
I'm also very happy to have a good race but it always seems to get ruined by somebody who is impatient and cannot wait for the right time to make a decent pass therefore he feels it's his right to push me out of the way, shove me off track, and or put me into a wall.

I am sick and tired of this behavior, I enjoy the daily races I try to have fun with them, I do try to raise clean and when I do not I back off, apologize, and try to resume the race as best I can, others I've seen just barge their way through not caring about ruining other people's enjoyment and experience in racing. This has got to stop, please.

It's not really anything to do with speed or skill. It's just an inevitable consequence of the fact that the world contains a relatively high proportion of buttholes. In open lobbies or dailies where there's no social interaction outside of that one race, people tend to behave at their worst because they don't know you and they don't give a flying fudge sundae if they stuff you face first into the wall. Some people find it amusing.

The most effective solution sadly seems to be to get good at spotting the mouth breathers and avoiding them. Let them past if you have to, because you know they're just going to wreck out on the next person down the line. It shouldn't be your responsibility to make sure other people don't crash into you, but you're the only person on the track you can trust.


As an aside, unfortunately, the single player mode of Gran Turismo also tends to teach players that this sort of racing is okay. I think 90+% of the people doing it know full well what they're doing and are just prison pockets, but there's almost certainly a few in there that legitimately think that this is how the game is played. And you can see why, most of the career is short races with huge speed differentials between the player and AI and the best way to be successful is to be very, very aggressive. If you learned to race in the career mode and then went online, that's exactly how you would drive...

 

[Samus]

As an aside, unfortunately, the single player mode of Gran Turismo also tends to teach players that this sort of racing is okay. I think 90+% of the people doing it know full well what they're doing and are just prison pockets, but there's almost certainly a few in there that legitimately think that this is how the game is played. And you can see why, most of the career is short races with huge speed differentials between the player and AI and the best way to be successful is to be very, very aggressive. If you learned to race in the career mode and then went online, that's exactly how you would drive...

It also teaches you that nothing less than 3rd or better is of any value in racing. Every single race you enter, bar the multi race championships, require you to finish 3rd or better to progress/win prizes.

I'm sure people take that attitude online as well.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

This is an open letter to those who are " better "

Just because you are better does not make you privileged, does not give you the right to run off the road those that are "slow".

It does not give you the right to ruin the fun and race of those that are not as good.
I am one of those that is not good, I'm average, yes maybe above average and I'm trying my damndest to improve.
I'm also very happy to have a good race but it always seems to get ruined by somebody who is impatient and cannot wait for the right time to make a decent pass therefore he feels it's his right to push me out of the way, shove me off track, and or put me into a wall.

I am sick and tired of this behavior, I enjoy the daily races I try to have fun with them, I do try to raise clean and when I do not I back off, apologize, and try to resume the race as best I can, others I've seen just barge their way through not caring about ruining other people's enjoyment and experience in racing. This has got to stop, please.

From my POV ? ...
They're not the better racers, they're worse. They are true losers !

I'm aware though this doesn't help much on track.

 

[B80]

It's not really anything to do with speed or skill. It's just an inevitable consequence of the fact that the world contains a relatively high proportion of buttholes. In open lobbies or dailies where there's no social interaction outside of that one race, people tend to behave at their worst because they don't know you and they don't give a flying fudge sundae if they stuff you face first into the wall. Some people find it amusing.

The most effective solution sadly seems to be to get good at spotting the mouth breathers and avoiding them. Let them past if you have to, because you know they're just going to wreck out on the next person down the line. It shouldn't be your responsibility to make sure other people don't crash into you, but you're the only person on the track you can trust.


As an aside, unfortunately, the single player mode of Gran Turismo also tends to teach players that this sort of racing is okay. I think 90+% of the people doing it know full well what they're doing and are just prison pockets, but there's almost certainly a few in there that legitimately think that this is how the game is played. And you can see why, most of the career is short races with huge speed differentials between the player and AI and the best way to be successful is to be very, very aggressive. If you learned to race in the career mode and then went online, that's exactly how you would drive...

Spot on! Agree with all of that.

People 'trained' that way offline and as no consequences for their behaviour online, they see no reason to adapt... though no doubt many are respetctful and don;t want to drive dirty/unfairly, 'win at all costs' too and spoil it for others.

Has to be policed/enforced by PD, something they're obviously struggling to balance correctly... personally preferred the harsher penalties. The way PD have seemingly decided to stick with lenient penalties makes me wonder if thats their preferance over harsher pens. Perhaps as higher % of players likely to end up getting annoyed, alienated and decide to move on v drivers that show respect, drive fairly.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Here’s the honest truth.

PD isn’t going to enforce Jack ****.

You’re not going to find ‘consistent’ clean lobbies until you get to first or second split.

Let the bargy fast guys through. They’re either going to:

A) punt you and ruin your race.
B) you let them through and they wreck their own race.
C) they’re genuinely faster than you, and there’s a good chance you’ll get some DR boost off of them.


Depending on the specific Motorsport at hand, there’s kind of an unwritten rule of “move, or be moved”.
In other words, if they give you more than 2 chances ti move, consider yourself lucky. Because it’s just a matter of time before they “move” you.

I’ve used this aforementioned code of ethics many times online, and Irl. Online, if you’re in top-second split, most people get it. IRL, 90% of people understand the unwritten rule.



Best advice is to embrace online racing for the mixed bag it is… and try not to get too upset. It really is a blast when you get a respectful lobby

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

This is an open letter to those who are " better "

Just because you are better does not make you privileged, does not give you the right to run off the road those that are "slow".

It does not give you the right to ruin the fun and race of those that are not as good.
I am one of those that is not good, I'm average, yes maybe above average and I'm trying my damndest to improve.
I'm also very happy to have a good race but it always seems to get ruined by somebody who is impatient and cannot wait for the right time to make a decent pass therefore he feels it's his right to push me out of the way, shove me off track, and or put me into a wall.

I am sick and tired of this behavior, I enjoy the daily races I try to have fun with them, I do try to raise clean and when I do not I back off, apologize, and try to resume the race as best I can, others I've seen just barge their way through not caring about ruining other people's enjoyment and experience in racing. This has got to stop, please.

Cultures are different in different games. In GT it's quite aggressive, for several reasons, at all levels.

In RaceRoom the players are older and more serious, and take pride in racing clean and fair.
Also, you don't have to be aggressive to overtake. The handling is much more dynamic so just sit behind and wait for a small mistake from the driver ahead. If you're faster, you'll pass him within a a lap or two. If not, just stay put and don't kill yourself or anyone else.

The penalty system PD has is worse than nothing. People always try to skillfully punt without getting a penalty - that's a "win"! It's like a game in the game.
In RaceRoom, it's more simple - no contact or else both gets penalized. This leads to nobody wanting any contact.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

You’re not going to find ‘consistent’ clean lobbies until you get to first or second split.

Even then you get the last to first yobbos. The world tour guys and the like. They usually barge their way through. The only mega quick guy I’ve seen who drives with a total respect is Tidgeney. Not just on the track but how he understands not everyone is as skilled or experienced as he is so doesn’t get annoyed when held up or others make mistakes.

 

[Cherryturbo]

PD, or anyone else can’t fix the problem, as there is but one:

HUMANITY

All it seems to take is for one person to act like a **** and someone else will copy. And so it goes. Add anonymity into the mix and welcome to online competition.

Depressing? Yes
True? Unfortunately.

 

[fastone371]

Even then you get the last to first yobbos. The world tour guys and the like. They usually barge their way through. The only mega quick guy I’ve seen who drives with a total respect is Tidgeney. Not just on the track but how he understands not everyone is as skilled or experienced as he is so doesn’t get annoyed when held up or others make mistakes.

The problem is that people think they will get fame or become big man on campus by winning a racing game on the interweb. Heres a newsflash for these mouth breathing window lickers, its just a game on the interweb, nobody really cares. I have been playing GT since its inception, no disrespect intended but Im not sure if I could completly name any of the past or present world tour drivers much less recognize one who was standing right in front of me. In the grand scheme of real world life GT means little to nothing.

 

[Roggers]

It’s not just fast drivers it all drivers pretty much. The biggest issue that ALL racing games have is people understanding racing etiquette and racing knowledge. Once you find users who understand both concepts you can have some brilliant racing on this game, but what with the wide selection of lower ranked drivers your always mixing with new people. The top splits from what I’ve seen on YT live streams, you can race the same 7/8 drivers majority of the times and you get to understand there driving style and habits which makes it easier, but obviously you still get your idiots in top split too.

One of the main problem I’ve experienced from the daily races is when it’s only 3, 4 or 5 lap races, a lot of the drivers dont have the patience and feel like they have to be aggressive to make up positions. I think one of the big reason this game has the aggressive racing in the short races is down to the career mode. 80% of the cafe menus are 2/3/4 laps, your always starting at the back of the grid and with the rolling start system you have to be aggressive to make up the 20/30/40 seconds head start 1st place gets.
The strategy and longer races with 10 laps plus, I find are more cleaner races as drivers know they can be that little bit more patient in making overtakes. The problem you do find in some of these races is when you have people on different strategies and they are faster drivers stuck behind a slower car. This is when racing knowledge is required from both drivers. The fast strategy driver needs to be patient and make the overtake in a position where you can overtake and also overtake when you are 100% know you can pass. This doesn’t happen and this is when you find a lot of them push to pass and try overtake where it’s not really possible. Then you get the other situation where slower strategy drivers spend too much time fighting a faster driver that its actually slowing your own pace down. If I’m on a slower strategy the first 85% of the race I will just race my own lines, keep to my race pace and not fight overtakes. The last 15% of the race I will fight as it’s normally the last 2 laps.
The other issue especially this week is driver rejoining the track safely. I know people make genuine mistake and will take another driver out, but it the people who have already crashed or gone off who just rejoin the track without looking, and those who have dirty tyres fighting people for corners.

 

[Jewel Runner]

The slower person has an obligation to be aware of a faster driver coming through and not ruin both persons race. Take look at yourself before blaming anyone else. Pick your battles intelligently.

 

[Fudman420]

For the very best way to elimate this crap is join a league like snail racing here at gtplanet. You end up in a smaller tight knit community that not only has steward enforcement but also has chat. The whole punt and run doesn't happen. People do make mistakes but most times they stop and give you the place and if not there is a penalty system to file against that person.

 

[Famine]

They're not "better" if they're faster than you but also entitled asshats who batter you out of their way. They're "faster".


And it's not a uniquely Gran Turismo phenomenon either. You can even see it in live ACC esports events among the elite in that game.

The slower person has an obligation to be aware of a faster driver coming through and not ruin both persons race.

As above, so below.

Everyone has an obligation to be aware of every other driver and not ruin each other's races.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Even then you get the last to first yobbos. The world tour guys and the like. They usually barge their way through. The only mega quick guy I’ve seen who drives with a total respect is Tidgeney. Not just on the track but how he understands not everyone is as skilled or experienced as he is so doesn’t get annoyed when held up or others make mistakes.

Tidgney is the best by far. Was in a few races with Kie last week. When he came up on me, I defended fir a couple corners and then let him through. No sense in fighting it 😂

 

[jrbabbitt]

Gee, remember this....

 

[Samus]

Gee, remember this....
View attachment 1181630

Yes, problem is the game itself says otherwise. For example, point one there simply isn't true in Gran Turismo world. Something isn't forbidden if you can actually do it with zero consequences.

They need to enforce the things they claim you can't do.

 

[paul09]

Cultures are different in different games. In GT it's quite aggressive, for several reasons, at all levels.

In RaceRoom the players are older and more serious, and take pride in racing clean and fair.
Also, you don't have to be aggressive to overtake. The handling is much more dynamic so just sit behind and wait for a small mistake from the driver ahead. If you're faster, you'll pass him within a a lap or two. If not, just stay put and don't kill yourself or anyone else.

The penalty system PD has is worse than nothing. People always try to skillfully punt without getting a penalty - that's a "win"! It's like a game in the game.
In RaceRoom, it's more simple - no contact or else both gets penalized. This leads to nobody wanting any contact.

I used to think this about the penalty system in gt7. Then recently, I gave iRacing a shot. The no-fault system there is far, far worse than gt7. You literally get no punishment whatsoever until you accumulate enough incident points - and you can easily punt or edge out people 3-4 times before entering danger zone for DQ.
Also, the damage is more realistic - on multiple occasions I qualified pole and got completely murdered from behind on turn 1 (yes, just like GT7 lol - despite hearing all over reddit about how much cleaner and more serious iracing is ), and instead of just losing 10 seconds or whatever, my car was literally wrecked, have to wait 2 minutes to get towed to the pits, then wait another minute while car gets repaired, then begin race several minutes behind
After playing iRacing a while, I came to appreciate the gt7 penalty system a bit more. It's certainly tuned down way too far at the moment but it's still better than being punted from behind and copping the same incident points as the punter whilst also needing to be towed to the pits...

 

[Redneckchef]

The slower person has an obligation to be aware of a faster driver coming through and not ruin both persons race. Take look at yourself before blaming anyone else. Pick your battles intelligently.

The obligation belongs to both people. If you're faster but I've got the defending line locked in, you're going to have to find another way around. Solid smooth defense is perfectly legitimate in the shorter dailies, and in longer ones involving strategy, part of that strategy is trying to make sure you get clean track. As long as the defense is clean and legit (no late swerve blocking or turning in to wedge someone off) there is no reason to simply pull over for a faster driver. Picking and choosing your battles is definitely the key to getting ahead, but you don't get to dictate what battles the person ahead of you chooses.
If you're deciding to start from the rear with no qualifying time then that's your choice and everyone ahead has the right to drive defensively if they feel it's worth it. I've lost 2 fantastic races recently and won another where I was the slower driver in front. The 2 losses I drove as fast as I could, and only defending if they were close enough for a shot. In both cases speed won out and they were able to find a spot to get a better exit and get alongside for a good pass. In the win they only had a lap and a half to work on it after wrecking out early and running me down, but they couldn't get by despite spending over half that last lap beside me, struggling to go around the outside, but we both left room and had a fantastic race.

 

[Monkey Man]

The only mega quick guy I’ve seen who drives with a total respect is Tidgeney.

Tidgney is the best by far.

I'd put Alex Buller (Aura) up there too.

If the dude were any more chilled he'd be asleep.

 

[TT92]

This is an open letter to those who are " better "

Just because you are better does not make you privileged, does not give you the right to run off the road those that are "slow".

It does not give you the right to ruin the fun and race of those that are not as good.
I am one of those that is not good, I'm average, yes maybe above average and I'm trying my damndest to improve.
I'm also very happy to have a good race but it always seems to get ruined by somebody who is impatient and cannot wait for the right time to make a decent pass therefore he feels it's his right to push me out of the way, shove me off track, and or put me into a wall.

I am sick and tired of this behavior, I enjoy the daily races I try to have fun with them, I do try to raise clean and when I do not I back off, apologize, and try to resume the race as best I can, others I've seen just barge their way through not caring about ruining other people's enjoyment and experience in racing. This has got to stop, please.

I somewhat disagree here with your premise. Just hear me out first before flaming ;-)

You addressed the letter to "those that are better" when this is is quite blatantly incorrect.

I consider myself a slightly above average driver too and get sick and tired of some <insert derogatory word of choice here> who starts a couple of rows back from me and who is clearly slower because of the qualifying grid position and thinks he can take the next couple of corners faster than me or those 1-2secs a lap faster than him can.

Of course races get ruined.

It has nothing to do with better or faster it is just plain <insert derogatory word of choice here>s here that are intent on not caring about anyone else and have aspirations far exceeding their abilities. It is a universal constant in today's society and that fact that the percentage is increasing.

I have stopped racing online for this exact reason and do not see PD rectifying it any time or any game version for that matter in the near future.

Here is the simple truth. There is NO consequence for action whether it be on track or some <insert derogatory word of choice here> being a keyboard warrior on the net. They do it because they can!

The next point I want to dress in your letter is, are you complaining about being lapped, in which case it is your responsibility to get out of their way or about being caught up to? In which case, why, were they behind you? If it was grid position then you are clearly the faster driver. Is this not so? ;-)

It is relatively easy for PD to stop this but they just do not have the will to do so because apparently people being <insert derogatory word of choice here>s online is part of the fun and a big percentage of the player base (or so it would seem) ;-)

 

[Monkey Man]

It has nothing to do with better or faster it is just plain <insert derogatory word of choice here>s here that are intent on not caring about anyone else and have aspirations far exceeding their abilities. It is a universal constant in today's society and that fact that the percentage is increasing.

Dunning-Kruger effect is on-the-rise.

 

[Geauxgreddy]

In practice lobbies I let faster guys through. We're all just trying to figure out pace, tire wear, fuel, race pace etc.

In a real race, you need to figure out a way around. Defense is just as important a racing skill as raw speed. If you cant skillfully set a pass, too bad. I try to figure out a way around slower drivers. A) it's more fun and B) it's more challenging. There is zero skill in pushing others off track.

That said, I'm not stupid either. If I know you are faster and I'm losing time to everyone behind by fighting you, then I'm setting myself up for failure. I'll let a faster guy by and use them for slip stream. Racing is situational.

But, even if a slower driver is being a fool and slowing us both down, I dont run them off the track. Again, its my job to figure out away around them. Besides, if you apply enough pressure, often you'll get a Greddy Pass.

 

[paul09]

Heres a newsflash for these mouth breathing window lickers

I think Tidgney does set a great example...if only more were like him

 

[Imari]

I used to think this about the penalty system in gt7. Then recently, I gave iRacing a shot. The no-fault system there is far, far worse than gt7. You literally get no punishment whatsoever until you accumulate enough incident points - and you can easily punt or edge out people 3-4 times before entering danger zone for DQ.

That's not true. The "punishment" is you losing a licence grade. If you're regularly hitting other people just because you think you can, you're going to be stuck in Rookie forever. Last time I checked you had to average about 4x per race to maintain an A licence, which doesn't leave much room for touching when you accept that you're probably going to get at least a couple 1x for off-track per session.

The assumption is that this is meaningful for people who want to progress and get better at racing, that being the basis of online competition. Obviously for people like you who see the DQ limit as aspirational that's not the case.

 

[Famine]

And it's not a uniquely Gran Turismo phenomenon either. You can even see it in live ACC esports events among the elite in that game.

So, the GT World Challenge Europe final - championship-deciding - round at Monza kind of hammers this point home...



The first 10 minutes or so are bad but watch what happens with the front four just after the pit stops...

 

[paul09]

That's not true. The "punishment" is you losing a licence grade. If you're regularly hitting other people just because you think you can, you're going to be stuck in Rookie forever. Last time I checked you had to average about 4x per race to maintain an A licence, which doesn't leave much room for touching when you accept that you're probably going to get at least a couple 1x for off-track per session.

The assumption is that this is meaningful for people who want to progress and get better at racing, that being the basis of online competition. Obviously for people like you who see the DQ limit as aspirational that's not the case.

It is true - if you don't accumulate too many points, you get literally zero punishment. You can easily progress the licenses by doing time trials and a clean race here and there, and just fire off the occasional murder with no punishment. Of course, if you murder multiple people every single race you won't progress. Or if you do it often enough to actually rack up reports I guess.

I don't see it as aspirational at all - I say this out of frustration as a many-times victim. but I do find it funny how defensive iRacing people get when anyone dares to question their hilariously meme-tier overpriced and literally decade out of date game. I wish it were more strict, and had some sort of fault allocation for obvious situations, for example, outrageous track rejoins, or huge speed differential punting from behind at corners.

My main point was - when I had only played GT7, I thought GT7 penalty system was trash. After playing other games - I came to think perhaps GT7 isn't so bad - other games haven't figured it out either.

 

[Imari]

It is true - if you don't accumulate too many points, you get literally zero punishment. You can easily progress the licenses by doing time trials and a clean race here and there, and just fire off the occasional murder with no punishment. Of course, if you murder multiple people every single race you won't progress. Or if you do it often enough to actually rack up reports I guess.

I don't see it as aspirational at all - I say this out of frustration as a many-times victim. but I do find it funny how defensive iRacing people get when anyone dares to question their hilariously meme-tier overpriced and literally decade out of date game. I wish it were more strict, and had some sort of fault allocation for obvious situations, for example, outrageous track rejoins, or huge speed differential punting from behind at corners.

My main point was - when I had only played GT7, I thought GT7 penalty system was trash. After playing other games - I came to think perhaps GT7 isn't so bad - other games haven't figured it out either.

Lol, iRacing people.

I haven't played in like four years, I just think that as a penalty system it's better than GT7 and I'm glad that most sim-racing games have adopted similar systems. Yes, you can game the system in iRacing if you want, just as you can game the penalty system in GT7 and GTS if you want. F1 drivers game the system in F1, that's just how motorsport works. If you think it's "defensive" to prefer one system over another and to disagree with the idea that accruing what amounts to strikes on your licence is "no punishment" then go for it.

iRacing is only one example of a no-fault system. I think the no-fault concept in general is superior to the weird thing that GT tries to do for a number of reasons, including that the consequences of your actions are very clear and it incentivises all parties to avoid incidents. I'm probably biased as someone who didn't find it that hard hold an A 4.0 licence and dodge the few people who were obviously out for blood, and I'm okay with that.

It should be noted that iRacing (and other games) also have a protest system for egregious wrecking. If someone actually goes on a rampage you have cause to get them temporary or permanent bans. It has a mixed reputation for working, but it's worked for me at least twice. Having that is also a pretty core part of any serious safety rating system, as it's important to be able to get people who are actually just psychopaths off the track quickly before they ruin the game for too many people. The safety system doesn't work properly without the protest system as well.

To my knowledge GT has no protest/reporting system, and it could really do with one. I know it's a hard problem to solve and would cost money, but that's just part of online gaming these days. Nobody wants to play a game that's full of toxic buttmonkeys cough*LoL*cough no matter how good it is. Without any way to discipline the worst players, the environment degrades significantly because players know that all they have to do is figure out a way around the automated systems.

If you find GT7 to be better then so be it, but it seems like it's more to do with your need to see immediate and visible retribution than about creating an environment where people are incentivised to drive clean. I don't have that, and I feel that a no-fault system is better long term at keeping me separate from people who see penalty systems as something to be gamed for maximum advantage.

No-fault advocates the type of driving that I outlined in my first post in this thread - taking responsibility for your own safety and choosing when to fight and when not to. It puts you in charge of your own safety.
Fault-based penalty systems like GT7 encourage people to assume that the other person will take the blame, because if we're honest in the heat of battle we all assume that the other person is at fault. This puts the system and other people in charge of your safety, and I don't think that's helpful.

P.S. If I'm anything, I'm an ACC and R3E people. Also Trackmania, but that's a whole different online experience.

 

[LGBT_Barron]

I've seen this quite a few times from streamers/top split guys doing last to first stuff, usually on their 2nd account and its always really annoyed me. So i get where your coming from. But .....a few times earlier on tonight i pitted early in Race C and ended up behind drivers lower ranked than me...caught them up, so what what should they do ? Maybe move aside and let me past ?, yeah maybe as it will save them time, but they might not be aware I'm faster (on fresher tires etc ).....But ultimately they don't have to as it's a race...
A lot of the faster drivers just kinda assume that everyone is well versed in race craft (letting faster drivers past you etc ), but when i was lower rated i had no idea of this concept, i just wanted to race and finish as high as possible, i had no idea who was on better tires etc