Australians: Are you sick of hearing about the "Bali 9"

[FoRiZon]

If you're talking about the execution of the two then the consequences of their actions needs to be addressed, not the consequence realized in their death. The same goes for their human rights, did they violate another's rights? There is no question that theirs were violated to the highest degree.

I don't see the question being between rights and consequences in this instance, I think it's more to do with personal capability and responsibility. There are situations where people are not capable of self protection even though the responsibility is present. Sometimes the choice to not act responsibly even though the capacity is there is made, in that case identifying the victim/victims is a deciding factor in law.

So, does the act of illegally smuggling drugs always produce victims, and if so is a penalty of death warranted? I set aside the idea that a person of sound mind choosing to use illicit drugs endeavors on their own and should accept the risks and rewards, in doing so I look towards other reasons such a law is justified. Of all the scenarios I can think of none of them or their effects can justify death to a drug smuggler.

Its peoples opinions regardless, not mine.

I was aware that smugglers like this shouldnt have been subjected to a death penalty. I always thought that, rehab aside, the authorities can use them to track down even bigger juggernauts. Then those bigger juggernauts are expected to face an appropriate retribution based on his crime, be it human trafficking (slavery), drug manufacturer, etc.

You have to remember though that Indonesia isnt the only one. Even Singapore responded the same as Indonesians. Also these kind of punishment, regardless if you disagree, is still has its actual reason instead of political or false ones. So this whole boycott thing, while understandable, wont last very long.

 

[Pseudopod]

According to some people in this thread, I should be dead now because I took some drugs (all drugs are the same, right?) yesterday. But here I am, alive and well. Wonder how that happened...

 

[Grayfox]

So this whole boycott thing, while understandable, wont last very long.

It's having the opposite effect.
There have been more bookings for bali than last year.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Its peoples opinions regardless, not mine.

Really? Got a source for that? On balance in this thread it doesn't seem to hold a huge majority.

Also these kind of punishment, regardless if you disagree, is still has its actual reason instead of political or false ones.

Well... that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case.

 

[Imari]

The reason these laws are popping up is because they are deemed justified on their own merit. Maybe we don't believe it makes one a murderer but the powers that be are thinking otherwise.

This is exactly what I was talking about. If you've got reasoning, go ahead and provide it. Otherwise it's an appeal to authority and holds no weight whatsoever.

Justified on their own merit...what exactly does that mean in this case? What's the merit?

Prohibition popped up in lots of states, and these days we would generally consider that law to be asinine. Unless you provide the reasoning, it's pretty hard to judge which side of the line a drug law falls on, asinine or useful, hence me saying previously that you might as well just provide the reasoning instead of appealing to authority.

I do not accept the argument that the "powers that be" know better than I do. That's bollocks. They may well do, but I'm as capable of understanding a well reasoned argument as the next person. I and everyone else in the thread would appreciate not having our intelligence insulted by implying that we're incapable of understanding the reasoning behind a law were it to be explained to us.

 

[squadops]

You have to remember though that Indonesia isnt the only one. Even Singapore responded the same as Indonesians. Also these kind of punishment, regardless if you disagree, is still has its actual reason instead of political or false ones. So this whole boycott thing, while understandable, wont last very long.

If you're referring to an internet movement of boycotting I agree, typical face book reaction that will pass as soon as they find something else to champion. The reasons for Indonesian law I can understand and respect, no problem there.

If Indonesia is interested in joining The Trans-Pacific Partnership, then perhaps their stance on human rights could have a spotlight. I'd guess the larger question would be over human trafficking however. I bring it up because the TPP could have positive effects much greater than any boycott movement could hurt. With a growing economy maybe their drug problems would diminish.

One thing that's bothered me about the Australian executions, weren't they exporting? You'd think importing would be the act they'd be more interested in stopping, especially in facing backlash.

 

[FoRiZon]

If you're referring to an internet movement of boycotting I agree, typical face book reaction that will pass as soon as they find something else to champion. The reasons for Indonesian law I can understand and respect, no problem there.

If Indonesia is interested in joining The Trans-Pacific Partnership, then perhaps their stance on human rights could have a spotlight. I'd guess the larger question would be over human trafficking however. I bring it up because the TPP could have positive effects much greater than any boycott movement could hurt. With a growing economy maybe their drug problems would diminish.

One thing that's bothered me about the Australian executions, weren't they exporting? You'd think importing would be the act they'd be more interested in stopping, especially in facing backlash.

Well Indonesia is scheduled to join it on this year.

But to answer the last sentence, Australia did capture the nine first. However, for some reason, they handed it all and trust to Indonesia. You can see where this is going.

There are importer who gets caught. But I forgot whom.

 

[mustafur]

Good, another maggot gone. Next. Sorry if I offend anyone, but people who would profit from destroying other people are, IMO, the lowest form of crap on the planet.

You work in the Service industry by any chance?

Also does this Violate the AUP?

Im Assuming you Also support the death Penalty of those that sell Alcohol and Cigerettes?

I would rather blame people not taking responsibility for their own actions rather then people giving others a Choice.

I know how much you love to correct me, but once again, you have completely ignored the context of the situation for the sake of what you think is a clever retort, but is really a cheap shot.


This time, try reading the whole discussion in the context of an emerging democracy instead of a developed nation ten years ago.

You made a Statement that was Incorrect, I corrected your Statement.


That was all, the context of what you said(which I did read) still doesn't take away from that fact.


I'm not trying to correct you because I like to correct you, it just seems that way because you react soo negatively to being incorrect.


If a Statement is incorrect from me I have no issue with being corrected, my biggest issues are just minor trivial things such as Grammar, then used to discount everything from that.

 

[croozer_63]

[.[/QUOTE]

You work in the Service industry by any chance?

Also does this Violate the AUP?

Im Assuming you Also support the death Penalty of those that sell Alcohol and Cigerettes?

I would rather blame people not taking responsibility for their own actions rather then people giving others a Choice.

All good champ, enjoy your life. If you go back you will find that I also advocate the abolishment of both alcohol and tobacco. Sick of arguing with people about it, do what you want, couldn't care less. As everyone keeps reminding me, its your lives , live them as you want. I am however, sick to death of paying taxes just to see them wasted fixing everyone else's freedom of choice mistakes. One day you and your kind might wake up and realise how wrong you are, but I doubt it. None so blind as those that will not see. Over and out.

 

[mustafur]

All good champ, enjoy your life. If you go back you will find that I also advocate the abolishment of both alcohol and tobacco. Sick of arguing with people about it, do what you want, couldn't care less. As everyone keeps reminding me, its your lives , live them as you want. I am however, sick to death of paying taxes just to see them wasted fixing everyone else's freedom of choice mistakes. One day you and your kind might wake up and realise how wrong you are, but I doubt it. None so blind as those that will not see. Over and out.

I hope you relise in many countries the Deathrow process is vastly more expensive then life inprisonment.

Also the taxing of Tobacco and Alcohol pumps significant Tax income into the Governments coffers.

But when I said service industry I also mean foods, such as Mcdonalds, KFC etc.

All of them sell fatty goods that can cause obesity and ruin lives.

End of day many things can kill you but number 1 is yourself.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I am however, sick to death of paying taxes just to see them wasted fixing everyone else's freedom of choice mistakes. One day you and your kind might wake up and realise how wrong you are, but I doubt it. None so blind as those that will not see.

You're absolutely right. Only the other day I saw a whole lane of a motorway closed so that a crash barrier could be repaired where some filthy, liberty-loving scuzzbag had exploited their "freedom" so far as to skid in the rain and crash while "making their way legally" from one end of the route to the other. The cost to my taxes was clearly significant. I was enraged, and I know you would have been too.

I remember thinking to myself "what's the point in being part of a sensible, free society and paying taxes to support a system where other people can share my right to live unfettered if they're going to make such poor choices?".

I'd like to add that I was so angry I drove into some traffic lights and knocked them over, but that would be untrue.

 

[Imari]

One day you and your kind might wake up and realise how wrong you are, but I doubt it. None so blind as those that will not see.

Oh god, the irony. And I didn't even have to edit anything to put those two sentences next to each other.

 

[squadops]

I am however, sick to death of paying taxes just to see them wasted fixing everyone else's freedom of choice mistakes.

How much do you reckon the war on drugs costs the tax payers?

 

[Grayfox]

How much do you reckon the war on drugs costs the tax payers?

Indonesias executions were cheaper than if they were to be in jail for life.

 

[mustafur]

Indonesias executions were cheaper than if they were to be in jail for life.

But how much does it cost to closely police illicit Drugs vs legalisation?

That is what he was saying.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Indonesias executions were cheaper than if they were to be in jail for life.

Source required.

 

[Grayfox]

Source required.

No source but rather thinking about the costs.

Executing someone has few things to pay for.

Keeping someone in jail, food costs, medical costs, ect

 

[mustafur]

No source but rather thinking about the costs.

Executing someone has few things to pay for.

Keeping someone in jail, food costs, medical costs, ect

You must be new here.

 

[Imari]

No source but rather thinking about the costs.

Executing someone has few things to pay for.

Keeping someone in jail, food costs, medical costs, ect

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cost+of+capital+punishment+vs+life+in+prison

 

[Grayfox]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cost+of+capital+punishment+vs+life+in+prison

Is that based on a western world nation where there are all these things do be done or a country that uses a firing squad and things can be done cheaper.
All those articles seems to be based upon countries like the US.

 

[mustafur]

Is that based on a western world nation where there are all these things do be done or a country that uses a firing squad and things can be done cheaper.
All those articles seems to be based upon countries like the US.

The prosecution still had to represent them selves in court, the process it self took 10 years the kind of costs in that would undoubtly be excessive.

 

[FoRiZon]

The prosecution still had to represent them selves in court, the process it self took 10 years the kind of costs in that would undoubtly be excessive.

Actually its more like 8+2 years.

8 years is the old president era, where his decisions are largely permissive and complementary. Now, since 2014, the new president has more strict, albeit aloof at times as seen on the 10 years on convict.

Its pretty confusing really seeing the posts here. Really the execution do make some hugely polarising opinions.

 

[Imari]

Is that based on a western world nation where there are all these things do be done or a country that uses a firing squad and things can be done cheaper.
All those articles seems to be based upon countries like the US.

I'm not doing your research for you. I'm just pointing out that there are free and easy ways for you to find the information that you're looking for instead of pulling numbers out of your back passage.

 

[LeMansAid]

Its pretty confusing really seeing the posts here.

What's confusing about them?

 

[FoRiZon]

What's confusing about them?

Mostly Pro or Contra. I cant determine. The other have a clear "good and bad".

 

[Thomas__633]

we should lock this... they got shot already.

 

[TDZdave]

we should lock this... they got shot already.

There's still seven left I think, don't care tbh,

 

[Thomas__633]

they got off with their lives I believe and are either in prison or released.

 

[LeMansAid]

we should lock this... they got shot already.

You bumped a thread to suggest a lock on it?

The irony of that, along with the thread title itself, is delicious, as they say.

 

[FoRiZon]

we should lock this... they got shot already.

No.

Lets talk about the other who will get one, we guess.