Do we really need Damage?

[JAGUAR1977]

Is that right? That is never asked first by anyone I ever talk to, infact most people I talk to doesn't care either way.

What else are people going to say, they want more cars, better graphics?

Those are a given, the only features that are going to greatly improve GT5 are damage, weather effects and a comprehensive online system.

 

[deep_sky]

The clamour for damage surely comes from the simple fact that GT on the PS3 is now absolutely ripe for sporting completely realistic and convincing damage, both graphically and physically...something which wouldn't have been possible in the past.

It's amazing to see how far GT has come on the PS3. I was playing GT4 the other day and it was surreal to see (and feel) how different the experience was; the cars had no weight to them; no sense of feel; the steering was very simple and the whole experience now just feels like arcade racing.

And as much as I wanted damage in GT4, in hindsight it would have added absolutely nothing...because the game hadn't even got the basics right. It's almost like don't run until you can walk...and adding damage would have been a case of Polyphony running at an absolute sprint.

But fast forward to the PS3, and GT5 not only looks, but feels realistic; the cars now have a real sense of weight; a real sense of proportion to them; the driving physics are now challenging and realistic...and the graphics - and the cockpit cam in particular - only add to that sense of realism and immersion.....so to then see the cars bump off walls and each other like dodgems without damage makes it feel unrealistic.

In other words, the way I see it is that GT5 is now so realistic, that to see the cars bump off of each other makes the overall experience less realistic.

But I agree that dynamic weather, day and night cycles and a better online system are hugely important. I've been wanting to change the weather since the first one.

Hasn't Kaz said though that damage is coming anyway? He did a string of interviews in April 2008 saying it would be added as an update to Prologue...

 

[AranhaHunter]

I would prefer dynamic weather over damage, and I would prefer mechanical damage over cosmetic damage. Of course I would prefer to have all 3.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Just one example-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWGG92_8fMU&feature=related

Nine times out of ten, when GT5 is discussed, the first question is, 'Will it have damage'.

I figure Amar knows GT5 doesn't have damage so is trying to downplay it's importance. As a sim fan I will still buy the game, but GT5 will show whether 'The Real Driving Simulator' tag is justified, or little more than a marketing exercise.

Bingo!👍

...600 pixel perfect car models are for nothing if online racing descends into bumper cars going into the first corner. Judging passes, avoiding accidents and preserving the car is half the fun of sim racing.

Here is a man who sees the whole picture, not blinded by fanboysim or desperation.

...However, everybody has a right to have his own opinion.

Thank you, that's about the only thing you've said that I agree with. But to desperately want to race at night or in the rain in a virtual racing simulator and prefer this over visual and mechanical damage. I remember another time I've seen a post from you telling me that the number 1 feature wanted was reverse lights. Of course, who needs damage when you can have reverse lights. I smell BS.

You think the game should not have damage because the people you race with race clean?

How many people are working on GT5? I obviously don't know, but I would assume more than enough to be able to focus on more than just one particular aspect of gameplay at a time.

That is why I smell BS in his statements...

 

[amar212]

I remember another time I've seen a post from you telling me that the number 1 feature wanted was reverse lights. Of course, who needs damage when you can have reverse lights. I smell BS.

That is why I smell BS in his statements...

Cobra_NZ, at first place I invite you not to call my statements BS - ******** - because it is plain rude. Thank you in advance.

Second, if you were member of GTPlanet long as many of us here are than you would know the whole picture about "working reverse lights". When I say it is #1 wanted feature, then you should believe me, because for almost 5 years we're listening various people coming here and bitching about things they would like to see in the game - and working reverse lights is unanimous winner of those bitching.

Damage has obviously become new "working reverse lights", because now we have zillions of new members coming here and crying for damage. It is OK to have one thread dedicated to it - but now every thread is about damage. It is annoying - because EVERYTHING about damage has been said already and resurfacing the same subject all over again every time when someone decides he has the BEST EVER IDEA ABOUT DAMAGE SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED IN GRAN TURISMO (TM) damage is again on the board.

So, next time when you decide to play smart - do it, but do not quote my posts please.

Third, this forum is not smarthouse - it is very serious forum for serious people. And refereeing twice to "BS" for something I've said - makes you look not serious.

 

[dzidza]

Amar you just don't get it, he's is smarter then you :-)

 

[RAVELLRON]

yes we need, and we are tired...

 

[DJMaky]

Speak for yourself.

 

[RAVELLRON]

i really don't understand why people don't want damage... they like arcade games??? how could be possible that people that play gt (the simulation of driving) wouldn't agree about damage????

 

[RedBaron]

i really don't understand why people don't want damage... they like arcade games??? how could be possible that people that play gt (the simulation of driving) wouldn't agree about damage????

Because there are people holding controller with friend on sofa and entertaining themselves in GT4 by bumping their Dodge Charger to a friend's Volvo Estate Wagon on Citta Di Aria in Arcade mode whole day and that's enough for them.

For me, the best fun in GT4 was to take any strong RWD car onto Nordschleife and timetrialing or drifting to the death on G25.

Thousand people, thousand opinions.

 

[dzidza]

Because there are people holding controller with friend on sofa and entertaining themselves in GT4 by bumping their Dodge Charger to a friend's Volvo Estate Wagon on Citta Di Aria in Arcade mode whole day and that's enough for them.

well for them there can be arcade mode without damage, it's about putting option for damage, so everyone can enjoy what they like

 

[RAVELLRON]

Because there are people holding controller with friend on sofa and entertaining themselves in GT4 by bumping their Dodge Charger to a friend's Volvo Estate Wagon on Citta Di Aria in Arcade mode whole day and that's enough for them.

For me, the best fun in GT4 was to take any strong RWD car onto Nordschleife and timetrialing or drifting to the death on G25.

Thousand people, thousand opinions.

would be good for them, cuz they would change the kind of game and we would have less punters online...

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Amar, please accept my apologies if you feel insulted by me calling some of the things you said in your posts BS. However, as you said it yourself, I am entitled to my own opinion.

Now just to explain myself better. I believe one would have to be a bit on the slow side to prefer reverse lights for the cars on a racetrack to Damage. So when you said a while back that was the number one feature people want; I have the right to not believe you. I just don't think people are that slow. Maybe Sony/PD/KY think so.

Also, if you tell me that you'd give up [B}Damage[/B] and continue playing GT5 bumper cars so you could race in the rain and at night, as it's far more important to you, I smell something not quite fresh, if you catch my drift (no pun intended).

Lastly Amar regardless of what you wish for in GT5, I hope you get it, I respect your wishes, so respect ours when we say we want Damage and that it is important.

 

[RAVELLRON]

about reverse light, there are also in gta4, and tell that for me trophies are the most important in this game than damage is like tell the same things..

im joking obiviusly

 

[Northstar]

Well I can't understand the second half of your sentence, I think you said said something to the effect of trophies. They will be in the game as any game released after January 2009 has to have them.

 

[RAVELLRON]

sorry is a joke, but i really hope that trophies there will be in gt5 more than reverse light...
for me are more important this than reverse light...

 

[newbielives]

I still don't think the PS3 is capable of doing Damage like everyone is dreaming while keeping up the graphics and physics of GT5P at 60fps with 16 cars on track.

So yes it would be nice to have Damage
but No if it meant sacrificing on physics or graphics.

 

[RAVELLRON]

in an italian interview KY told that phisic and grafic damage are very easy to put in game... cicle weather will be really difficult to put and keep 60 fps...

 

[Tenacious D]

i really don't understand why people don't want damage... they like arcade games??? how could be possible that people that play gt (the simulation of driving) wouldn't agree about damage????

With the zillions of factors dealing with Gran Turismo and Playstation gaming, it's hard to remember them all and put them in one huge post. But then, every post from me would be a little wikipedia if I did.

But one thing I've been forgetting about is the difference between the typical console racer, and the typical PC sim racer. Even though there are a large number of hardcore GT racers, the average console owner isn't a car nut, or a racing fanatic, or a stickler for obeying the rules of real life. They're just a gamer who wants to have some fun with a video game.

A PC sim racer on the other hand who buys a game like rFactor or GTR, and certainly iRacing or Live For Speed, is most likely a simulation nut who wants a game that captures as much of the racing experience as possible. To them, having damage is a no brainer, as if not having it would be like race cars without tires.

While a lot of us here are more serious racers, we do have "casual" gamers in our ranks, who aren't sure what an apex is all about. To them damage is probably a headache they don't want to mess with. Then there's the factor that many of us have just grown used to GT games not having damage, and throwing that in makes them uncomfortable. And some of us are almost romantic about our GT collection, and don't want them damaged any more than they want their real life car to be in a wreck.

But there is one more group, typified by Amar, who are afraid that trying to put damage into GT5 will mean a huge drag on the team because Kazunori is such a perfectionist. These people are afraid that such a drain of time and resources will mean a lot of things left out. And remembering what a small game GT3 was, and what a freaking HUGE game GT4 was, most of us don't want a GT3 this time around. Especially if it means damage kept a whole lot of content, primarily cars, out of GT5. And frankly I'm in agreement with this position.

Yes, it would mean the fanbots and a bunch of gaming journalists, many of who are in MS's pants, would scream about damage not being in a flagship Playstation racer yet again. But while they would be nattering away online about it, the rest of us would be enjoying a superb racer, able to take any number of favorite cars and pit them and ourselves against each other in the sweetest competition there is. If damage is in, wonderful. Those who want it can have it, and those who don't can turn it off. But if it's not in at launch, as I said before, I'm sure the trail of tears will be pretty thin.

 

[RAVELLRON]

ok, but its ridiculos that a title like gt doesnt have damage, we are in 2010... every game like that crappy juiced have it??? why a title so important and the most powerful like gt doesn't have???

 

[Jay]

we are in 2010...

Bloody hell 2009 went so fast, I hear that happens when you get older

 

[Tenacious D]

WOW... I HAVE TO GO PICK UP GT5 NAOW!!!

But seriously, comparing GT5 to other games isn't the right way to look at it. Other games have fake cars, or damage that's dramatic but arcady, or have nothing but race cars. And certainly nowhere near the number of cars Gran Turismo has. The only comparison that's valid is against Forza. But look what the situation is honestly.

• Forza has fewer cars by far. Kazunori has to negotiate with many more car companies.
• It has a very limited damage implementation. I'd say about 25-30 percent what a car would actually experience.
• The game freezes for a fraction of a second while it decides how badly a car is damaged. Even the graphics take a moment to load.
• Damage is different depending on the vehicle, because that's all the car maker would allow.

I don't think Kazunori the perfectionist would tolerate this. So, yes this is the 21st Century, this is the PS3, but the situation isn't as simple as Kaz and the lads being unwilling or lazy. It's a very complicated matter.

 

[DJMaky]

yes we need, and we are tired...

I would like damage in GT 5, like any other GT fan.
But I wouldn't want non finshed damage, I'd rather have weather conditions, most realistic physics, day/night cycles, private online lobbies etc.
Damage IS an important element of driving simulators, but not the most important.

 

[Tenacious D]

I don't think Kazunori the perfectionist would tolerate this.

I can't believe I posted that...

Kazunori the perfectionist absolutely would NOT tolerate that. And damage or not, whatever Kaz and the team give us will make sense.

I might as well post what I want from GT5. First and foremost, I want Gran Turismo 5 to deliver a massive, HUGE racing experience like they delivered in GT4. I want that wealth of cars and tracks badly, and more. This is what I need in GT5. Everything else is gravy, though gravy that really should be included. In addition, more or less in order:

• Four driver views: Bumper/hood, Cockpit, Roof and Chase, and all user adjustable.
• Racing modification, including a selection of bodykits and a livery paint shop, hopefully including a decal maker.
• Career and Season Modes. Season Mode Online, for league building in various racing disciplines such as BTCC, ALMS, World Rally etc.
• More extensive tuning and modification, including entire engine/drivetrain kits, such as racing kits.
• Tuner Village to include the making of name brand tuners. Different shops such as TOMS, TRD, NISMO, Amuse, Ford Racing, etc.
• The usual laundry list of online features, such as private races, voice chat, etc.
• A.I. drivers to have names and racing "personalities," or specific traits and tactics.
• A trainable B-Spec driver, similar to what was implemented in Forza 1.
• Well planned DLC, which incorporates seamlessly into the single player game, not be useless save for online racing and time trials.
• Stat tracking.
• Much improved Photo Mode, and a movie maker to upload replays to Youtube or share online. Save online replays.
• Much more than 3 tunes per car, and nameable.
• An Auction House, like ebay.
• The ability to include our own music tracks in the playlist, or choice to replace it altogether.
• Time of day changes.
• Damage, and as much like GRID as possible. Optional and adjustable.
• Weather, and optionally basing track conditions on current real world conditions.

And these are more or less my priorities. I don't want damage to unseat any of those, with the possible exception of weather, which still makes me nervous...

 

[RacingFreak2k3]

^ +1,000 👍

Now don't get my wrong, I would love to see damage and weather, etc...as I just watched a Rolex Sports Car Race in the pouring rain, and it just added so much excitement and a different dimension to a normal race.

But at the same time, many of the things listed by Tenacious, besides damage and weather, would add SO much dimension to the GT series, without having to worry about framerate drops, manufacturer licensing, etc. All will be revealed in about a month, and of course, I'm just as eager to know if we'll get those 2 big features that seem to be wanted around the world. Will I disappointed if we don't get either one? Maybe slightly. Will I still buy the game? Absolutely, because I have a gut feeling that many of the things listed there will be in GT5....and with full 1080p high def glory, I'll be in heaven

 

[Cobra_NZ]

OK, but its ridiculos that a title like GT doesn't have damage, we are in 2009... Every game like that crappy Juiced has it??? Why a title so important and the most powerful franchise, GT, doesn't have it???

I fixed your post a little bit.

Haha, Juiced was crap indeed. But yes, completely see your point, so true...

 

[TeamStig]

Now don't get my wrong, I would love to see damage and weather, etc...as I just watched a Rolex Sports Car Race in the pouring rain, and it just added so much excitement and a different dimension to a normal race.

I was there!!!

Back on topic. As much as I want damage in GT5, there are so many other features I'd rather have before that. Tenacious D already mentioned most of these, but I would love to see full weather effects and day/night cycles, deeper tuning features (i'd like to be able to reach the same level of customization as the racing modification feature in GT1 and GT2), the implementation of real series, an auction house, and online leagues. Real racing is so much more than just damage, and I think that's where some people are missing the point.

 

[FoolKiller]

Something has occured to me about this damage thing: The track

Currently the only non-solid track objects are cones. Adding damagge to cones means that all tire walls also have to be destructible, or you will total your car by hitting tire walls only.

So not only do cars have to be deformable, but so do the tracks.

Just a thought to keep in mind. Whatever effort needs to be done on cars for this also has to be done to tracks if they do damage the way Kazunori Yamauchi discusses.

 

[lmracer]

Something has occured to me about this damage thing: The track

Currently the only non-solid track objects are cones. Adding damagge to cones means that all tire walls also have to be destructible, or you will total your car by hitting tire walls only.

So not only do cars have to be deformable, but so do the tracks.

Just a thought to keep in mind. Whatever effort needs to be done on cars for this also has to be done to tracks if they do damage the way Kazunori Yamauchi discusses.

Good point. Damage to the environment will have to be implemented as well. Half of the barriers on real race circuits are collapsible anyway. Being able to toss your car into the infield at Infineon Raceway will require more modeling. Modeling that has no GT4 base to build on. Could be interesting?

 

[Tenacious D]

Currently the only non-solid track objects are cones. Adding damage to cones means that all tire walls also have to be destructible, or you will total your car by hitting tire walls only.

So not only do cars have to be deformable, but so do the tracks.

This occurred to me as well, after watching the GRID wreck videos. But if damage is in, I'd insist on the whole enchilada, and tuned to the point the game runs well with 16 cars on track.

I just posted a poll thread which deals with this, and I'd invite votes and comments on my crazy monster.