Drugs

  • Thread starter Danoff
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Wait a sec, let me see if I understand this. All your arguments are:

"Alcohol is legal, why not marijuana?"
"Coffee is legal, why not marijuana?"
"Nicotine is legal, why not marijuana?"
"Aspirine is legal, why not marijuana?"
"The government is evil and hides the benefits of marijuana."

At least aspirine, wine (alcoholic) and coffee have benefits and are only dangerous if you use/drink them too much. Only nicotine should be banned.

And Marijuana doesn't? Honestly, you just sound like some one that was spoon feed anti-drug propaganda at a young age.

Marijuana is an excellent appetite stimulant, which some people need, and can reduce pain as well. Certainly more useful than alcoholic beverages. It is pretty clear you have virtually no experience with marijuana or people that use it - working a late night shift at a food place that was popular with drunks and stoners, the stoners are a lot easier to deal with :lol: Not to mention less likely to vomit on things or need to go to the ER for poisoning.
 
And Marijuana doesn't? Honestly, you just sound like some one that was spoon feed anti-drug propaganda at a young age.

Marijuana is an excellent appetite stimulant, which some people need, and can reduce pain as well. Certainly more useful than alcoholic beverages. It is pretty clear you have virtually no experience with marijuana or people that use it - working a late night shift at a food place that was popular with drunks and stoners, the stoners are a lot easier to deal with :lol: Not to mention less likely to vomit on things or need to go to the ER for poisoning.

Yes, for clinic uses, not like you can just take a cannabis, start smoking it and then suddenly feel like "YAY I'M HEALTHY!!1!".

And why another legalized drug in the world? We have plenty of them.
 
Yes, for clinic uses, not like you can just take a cannabis, start smoking it and then suddenly feel like "YAY I'M HEALTHY!!1!".

Why not? I feel that way everytime I get drunk 👍

The only argument against legalizing pot I can 1/2 buy is that it could lead to all illicit drugs being legalized which I am against.
 
Why not? I feel that way everytime I get drunk 👍

The only argument against legalizing pot I can 1/2 buy is that it could lead to all illicit drugs being legalized which I am against.

Please, read the post again.
 
Yes, for clinic uses, not like you can just take a cannabis, start smoking it and then suddenly feel like "YAY I'M HEALTHY!!1!".

You sure as hell can just sit down and smoke it and feel better. Are you magically healthy? No. Did I say that? No.

And why another legalized drug in the world? We have plenty of them.

Because honestly Marijuana is less harmful than booze and cheaper I'd even say. And I've never met an angry stoner. Ever. Angry drunks? OH BOY
 
I can't believe how commonplace the over exaggeration of marijuana is. It's a plant, it makes people feel better and chill out for a while. I don't see why it's a huge deal. Also, I don't see why people care what other people are doing. If you don't like marijuana, fine, don't smoke it. That's what I do, and it works just fine for me 👍
 
And why another legalized drug in the world? We have plenty of them.
Reduction in crime enforcement liabilities would save the governments of the world a whole lot of money. The quality of the products would go up because people don't have to seek resources from outlandish, untrustworthy locations, and wouldn't be afraid to buy good ingredients they need in public. Because the drugs are both safer and easier to make, the price would come down. These factors combined would reduce drug related crimes because deals-gone-wrong, backstabbing, lying, cheating, and all the typical drug trade shenanigans would be significantly reduced.

But best of all, the drugs wouldn't become more popular than they are now, at least not past a negatable degree. The vast majority of people know heroin is a very destructive drug and would never consider using it, no matter if it was legal.

The world would be a much safer place if drugs were legal. It's just too bad that the vast majority of people have zero economic sense, besides lacking logical morals.
 
Reduction in crime enforcement liabilities would save the governments of the world a whole lot of money. The quality of the products would go up because people don't have to seek resources from outlandish, untrustworthy locations, and wouldn't be afraid to buy good ingredients they need in public. Because the drugs are both safer and easier to make, the price would come down. These factors combined would reduce drug related crimes because deals-gone-wrong, backstabbing, lying, cheating, and all the typical drug trade shenanigans would be significantly reduced.

But best of all, the drugs wouldn't become more popular than they are now, at least not past a negatable degree. The vast majority of people know heroin is a very destructive drug and would never consider using it, no matter if it was legal.

The world would be a much safer place if drugs were legal. It's just too bad that the vast majority of people have zero economic sense, besides lacking logical morals.

This looks like Marx's utopic socialism. You can't simply destroy criminalty by legalizing drugs. Do you think those guys at Mexico or the drug dealers in Rio's slums would simply throw their guns away and open a legal drug business? Of course not. And do you seriously think legalizing drugs is going to make this kind of thing profitable for the government?

You sure as hell can just sit down and smoke it and feel better. Are you magically healthy? No. Did I say that? No.

Yes, every drug in the world makes you feel better. But it doesn't make you better.
 
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This looks like Marx's utopic socialism. You can't simply destroy criminalty by legalizing drugs. Do you think those guys at Mexico or the drug dealers in Rio's slums would simply throw their guns away and open a legal drug business? Of course not. And do you seriously think legalizing drugs is going to make this kind of thing profitable for the government?



Yes, every drug in the world makes you feel better. But it doesn't make you better.

Well, if you make drugs legal, the guys in Mexico aren't doing anything illegal anymore. The only reason there's all this shady business involved with running drugs is because they're illegal. Since they're illegal, you can't count on the police to protect your "product", so you have to do it yourself. Gangs wouldn't be shooting eachother over drugs if they were legal, because the drug industry would explode with production. Think of tobacco, if marijuana were legal, do you honestly think that there wouldn't be a huge legitimate farming industry?

It's like with the abortion debate, in places where abortions are illegal, they still happen, but happen in a back alleyway with a coat hanger, instead of being safely performed by a medical professional. Similarly, meth is cooked in some guy's basement and he blows himself up because it's illegal, and can't be made safely in a laboratory environment by a chemist who knows what they're doing.
 
This looks like Marx's utopic socialism. You can't simply destroy criminalty by legalizing drugs. Do you think those guys at Mexico or the drug dealers in Rio's slums would simply throw their guns away and open a legal drug business? Of course not. And do you seriously think legalizing drugs is going to make this kind of thing profitable for the government?
Do I think that if drugs were legal, dealers would sell them legally? Uh...yes.

Without fear of punishment, drug makers and sellers would be free to make and sell. Likewise, buyers would be able to buy without fear. Because of this threat, drugs are extremely scarce and extremely expensive because producers and sellers must offset the risk of their business. Insurance companies are a good example of this. Extremely high profits, but also extremely high risk - their business could come crashing down on them at any moment because of a natural disaster, or in a drug dealer's case, a police raid.

Because the risk would be diminished if drugs were legal, dealers wouldn't need guns to defend from junkies with no money trying to steal the stash, and the junkies wouldn't need guns to attack the dealers because the drug has become more easily accessible and much cheaper.

At what point did I promote government profit? What I said is that the drug war - which has produced no results whatsoever - would come to an end. And that's good, because it cost American taxpayers like me about 40 billion dollars in 2010, to results that haven't effected anybody in the slightest. Think of that - The Federal and State governments here exhausted Bill Gates's entire fortune in a single year doing nothing. People still do heroin, cocaine (At least two of my family members have tried it so it's fairly common), and over half my friends smoke marijuana regularly.

When I say "save the government money" what I mean is "save me money," but your economic sense is obviously to thin to make that connection.
 
This looks like Marx's utopic socialism.
Would you counter that with Friedman's utopic laissez-faireism?

You can't simply destroy criminality by legalizing drugs. Do you think those guys at Mexico or the drug dealers in Rio's slums would simply throw their guns away and open a legal drug business? Of course not.

First of all, yes—that may very well happen. But there are certain conditions and situations necessary where that could happen. It's not a magic, unilateral rule that the concept works, though. Legalisation in Mexico, alone and without any kind of management, would be doomed to fail. The drug cartels there have very little competition, and they're so powerful already that any legal, government-approved alternative for less money could very easily be targeted at the legislative-level with bribery, threats and assassination to secure and retain their position as #1. They already do that, shamelessly. If they remained illegal in the rest of North America, I doubt little would change except that the cartels could become even more powerful within their home nation.
If "drugs" (marijuana, cocaine, heroin?) were legalised State-side, it could rock the Mexican economy, providing the cartels use legal routes of transmission and submit to the inevitable government regulations. How it would rock the economy is difficult to imagine. The majority of illicit drug-producers that are entrenched in Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Venezuela etc, are entrenched because of the growing conditions necessary for these drugs to be produced; America would have to produce its own product to economically threaten the South-American drug trade, which exports largely to N. America and Europe, and that is difficult. That could be done by simply making the regulations too tight for them to get around: having a caveat which expressly forbids the import of drugs from countries where they are illicit under local law should be sufficient. Under that environment, their clientele (Americans) would be seriously dissuaded from purchasing foreign drugs, and they'd remain absolute enemies to the State. The flip-side to that, though, is the ripple effect of such demonisation may negatively impact other states. Europe may see a spike in prices, and the frustration of traffickers may push them into other, riskier markets where they normally wouldn't tackle.

Well, if you make drugs legal, the guys in Mexico aren't doing anything illegal anymore.
See the above.

Gangs wouldn't be shooting each other over drugs if they were legal, because the drug industry would explode with production.
However, as pointed out before, the monopoly-motive—which is a strong incentive when you're already used to killing people—is very strong, and would remain a driving-force of intra-cartel/gang violence. So long as there is competition outside of the retail-legal-country's borders, and the trade remains illegal outside those borders, the Cartels have little to lose. Certain circumstances could provoke spikes in violence as they vie for top valid position.

It's like with the abortion debate, in places where abortions are illegal, they still happen, but happen in a back alleyway with a coat hanger, instead of being safely performed by a medical professional. Similarly, meth is cooked in some guy's basement and he blows himself up because it's illegal, and can't be made safely in a laboratory environment by a chemist who knows what they're doing.

Because our #1 concern over meth sales is the safety of those producing it.

And do you seriously think legalizing drugs is going to make this kind of thing profitable for the government?
Only if they tax or subsidize it. Then yes, obviously. (However, the associated health-care costs might negate such an advantage.)


Yes, every drug in the world makes you feel better. But it doesn't make you better.
Of course they do.
 
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I believe that Marijuana should be the only drug to be legalized.You can't overdose on it and if you tried you would fall asleep first.

Legalizing the others would lead to many overdose cases and worse, work related accidents and car accidents would increase.
 
Honestly, you just sound like some one that was spoon feed anti-drug propaganda at a young age.

Oh, Azuremen. The world must look so different from atop your perch...

Considering all of the anti-drug education in American schools I'd be amazed to find out if you weren't in several anti-drug programs during your childhood. I mean every level, too. I know I was - elementary school, junior high, and high school. Are you the product of home-schooling or did you go to some private school which didn't have public health requirements in their curriculum? Maybe the Wazoo BOE isn't concerned about these kinds of things?

D.A.R.E. anyone?


Yes, every drug in the world makes you feel better. But it doesn't make you better.

False. (The first part.)

=============

I'm personally in favor of the legalization of Marijuana (even though I don't care for it myself) for many reasons already mentioned in this thread, namely:
  • Government Regulations in regards to dosage, filtering, use, and control.
  • Potential tax revenue versus current enforcement costs.
  • One less source of revenue for cartels (I understand they won't disappear).
  • Ease on prisons.
  • Medical legalization in California hasn't been shown to be a root of any new problems for the community. (TMK)
 
And why another legalized drug in the world? We have plenty of them.

Plenty of legal that were formerly illegal, plenty of illegal that were formerly legal, and actually used in polite society (Sherlock Holmes was an addict... so he's not real... it's still true)...

This looks like Marx's utopic socialism. You can't simply destroy criminalty by legalizing drugs. Do you think those guys at Mexico or the drug dealers in Rio's slums would simply throw their guns away and open a legal drug business? Of course not. And do you seriously think legalizing drugs is going to make this kind of thing profitable for the government?

So... what happened to the huge moonshine industry when the Prohibition was lifted? Dead. Kaput. Gone up in smoke (sometimes literally).

People didn't stop making moonshine, mind, but people no longer had to go for dangerous, poorly-made backyard booze after it was lifted, and the quality of alcohol available to people was greatly improved.

Former moonshiners and booze-runners either became legitimate businessmen (and yes, sell legal drugs... errh... alcohol) or had to find a new job... like running NASCAR races. :dopey:

No illegal product, no big money, the gangs either dissolve or look for something else to do. Obviously, the criminal element won't go away completely, but you're taking away a huge chunk of their profits.

Now, isn't that a good thing?

---

Not that I'm in favor of any mind-altering substances... but there are a lot of "legal" ones that are far more damaging than marijuana.

And we would still have laws against driving under the influence or going to work while high... just like we have laws in place for alcohol.
 
Oh, Azuremen. The world must look so different from your perch...

Considering all of the anti-drug education in American schools I'd be amazed to find out that you weren't in several anti-drug programs during your childhood. I mean every level, too. I know I was - elementary school, junior high, and high school. Where you home-schooled or did you go to some private school that didn't have public health requirements in their curriculum? Maybe the Wazoo BOE isn't concerned about these kinds of things?[/LIST]

Oh, I was. I just was also smart enough to not repeat it as fact because I was taught to consider multiple sources of information. The way ivoyared has been presenting his argument (or lack there of) is that "drugs are bad, m'kay." His view is bleeding ignorance of how marijuana actually works from every pore.

Though yes, I was home schooled for a while and high school was a private prep school. I do recall an anti-drug thing when I was in middle school, and it was so painfully over the top.

As for my perch, I guess you could call rationality and critical thinking that. But I dunno.
 
Do I think that if drugs were legal, dealers would sell them legally? Uh...yes.

Without fear of punishment, drug makers and sellers would be free to make and sell. Likewise, buyers would be able to buy without fear. Because of this threat, drugs are extremely scarce and extremely expensive because producers and sellers must offset the risk of their business. Insurance companies are a good example of this. Extremely high profits, but also extremely high risk - their business could come crashing down on them at any moment because of a natural disaster, or in a drug dealer's case, a police raid.

Because the risk would be diminished if drugs were legal, dealers wouldn't need guns to defend from junkies with no money trying to steal the stash, and the junkies wouldn't need guns to attack the dealers because the drug has become more easily accessible and much cheaper.

At what point did I promote government profit? What I said is that the drug war - which has produced no results whatsoever - would come to an end. And that's good, because it cost American taxpayers like me about 40 billion dollars in 2010, to results that haven't effected anybody in the slightest. Think of that - The Federal and State governments here exhausted Bill Gates's entire fortune in a single year doing nothing. People still do heroin, cocaine (At least two of my family members have tried it so it's fairly common), and over half my friends smoke marijuana regularly.

When I say "save the government money" what I mean is "save me money," but your economic sense is obviously to thin to make that connection.

Anybody think that there might be a vested interest in keeping drugs illegal? "The prison industrial complex" is a word that's thrown around a bit.
 
Do I think that if drugs were legal, dealers would sell them legally? Uh...yes.

Without fear of punishment, drug makers and sellers would be free to make and sell. Likewise, buyers would be able to buy without fear. Because of this threat, drugs are extremely scarce and extremely expensive because producers and sellers must offset the risk of their business. Insurance companies are a good example of this. Extremely high profits, but also extremely high risk - their business could come crashing down on them at any moment because of a natural disaster, or in a drug dealer's case, a police raid.

Because the risk would be diminished if drugs were legal, dealers wouldn't need guns to defend from junkies with no money trying to steal the stash, and the junkies wouldn't need guns to attack the dealers because the drug has become more easily accessible and much cheaper.

At what point did I promote government profit? What I said is that the drug war - which has produced no results whatsoever - would come to an end. And that's good, because it cost American taxpayers like me about 40 billion dollars in 2010, to results that haven't effected anybody in the slightest. Think of that - The Federal and State governments here exhausted Bill Gates's entire fortune in a single year doing nothing. People still do heroin, cocaine (At least two of my family members have tried it so it's fairly common), and over half my friends smoke marijuana regularly.

When I say "save the government money" what I mean is "save me money," but your economic sense is obviously to thin to make that connection.

Do you seriously think that drug dealers would stop shooting each other just because drugs are legalized? It's going to be worse: they would do the same thing with the excuse of being a "legal business", like mobsters.

You really can't (or don't want to see) what drugs can do to someone or the society. In Mexico, the local police force find decapitaded bodies every day because of the drug business. Here people are shot in front of their houses, work places, because someone need money to buy their weed. I'm glad that the police force is arresting every single piece of 🤬 that does this because of a illegal substance.
 
Do you seriously think that drug dealers would stop shooting each other just because drugs are legalized? It's going to be worse: they would do the same thing with the excuse of being a "legal business", like mobsters.

You really can't (or don't want to see) what drugs can do to someone or the society. In Mexico, the local police force find decapitaded bodies every day because of the drug business. Here people are shot in front of their houses, work places, because someone need money to buy their weed. I'm glad that the police force is arresting every single piece of 🤬 that does this because of a illegal substance.

You mean the way they stopped shooting each other when alcohol was legalized? No way.
 
Anybody think that there might be a vested interest in keeping drugs illegal? "The prison industrial complex" is a word that's thrown around a bit.
I'd like to think "they", whoever they are, do it simply because they're idiots, but god damn if it isn't easy as pie to connect the dots of a conspiracy theory. I feel dirty for saying that.

because someone need money to buy their weed.
Why is poverty so rampant where you are?
 
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Do you seriously think that drug dealers would stop shooting each other just because drugs are legalized?

I don't think anyone believes that. Law breakers will break the law. Violent offenders will be violent. Period.

It's going to be worse: they would do the same thing with the excuse of being a "legal business", like mobsters.

Wrong. The infrastructure for the mass production and distribution of legalized marijuana already exists. Any currently existing growers (even the legal ones in California) would be bought out or removed from the marketplace by the likes of R.J. Reynolds, Altria, and other tobacco giants. These companies already have legal trademarks for marijuana products. As a crop, marijuana does not require a lengthy production process (agave [the crop used for tequila] for example, is a crop takes almost a decade to mature into a harvestable product) and big business would not have trouble seizing the market.

You really can't (or don't want to see) what drugs can do to someone or the society.

No one does, but there's a big difference between Marijuana and other drugs like opiates, meth, and so on. There's also something to be said about the people who abuse drugs. They will do so whether they are legal or not. The disease is not the substance, it's the addiction itself. Be it cocaine, alcohol, sex, theft, perfectly legal prescription medicine, etc. The only way to cure addiction is through [preventative] education and psychological treatment. The debate about addiction deserves its own thread.

You will find that the root of most addictions are found in emotional and physical abuse (especially at a young age), with the substances/actions being the primary symptom. An analogy of this could be a burning log - where does the extinguisher go? On the flames or the log itself? The addict is the log and the substance is the flames. I hope that makes sense. :indiff:


In Mexico, the local police force find decapitaded bodies every day because of the drug business. Here people are shot in front of their houses, work places, because someone need money to buy their weed. I'm glad that the police force is arresting every single piece of 🤬 that does this because of a illegal substance.

These gangs are funded by the illegal drug trade. They would lose a large portion of their revenue by the legalization of marijuana. That would not stop the cartels, of course. There is still the existence of cocaine, opiates, and other drugs which nobody wants to legalize and would likely do plenty to fund the operation of these drug cartels. Honestly, the only way to stop these cartels is through enforcement and it simply appears that the Mexican government is not sufficiently equipped to handle this problem.
 
Like we've said a number of times before... as with the lifting of the Prohibition, legalizing a previously illegal substance cuts gangs and syndicates off from millions (if not tens or hundreds of millions) of dollars in income.

It's not going to kill the criminal syndicates, but it's going to hamper their operations for a long, long while.
 
It's not going to kill the criminal syndicates, but it's going to hamper their operations for a long, long while.

I agree. Such a blow could be what tilts the cartel war into the favor of the Mexican Government. It's hard to take on a Government military when you're short on cash.

========

I wouldn't be surprised if the US Government stepped in to handle it if they ever close the book on Al Qaeda and the North African/Middle Eastern uprisings. It can just be the next war du jour, if you will.

Germans in WWI & II, then the Cold War/Communists, now Islamic world dictators and terrorists... What's next? Drug cartels? China?
 
The Netherlands is looking to curb their soft drug policies. They want to "tackle the nuisance and criminality" by making it more difficult for people who want the drugs to get them.

"In order to tackle the nuisance and criminality associated with coffee shops and drug trafficking, the open-door policy of coffee shops will end," the Dutch health and justice ministers wrote in a letter to the country's parliament on Friday.

In the United States, it's relatively hard to get drugs. People who want them bad enough get guns first, shoot whoever does have the drugs, and then steal the drugs. Now that's what I called curbing criminality.
 
Like we've said a number of times before... as with the lifting of the Prohibition, legalizing a previously illegal substance cuts gangs and syndicates off from millions (if not tens or hundreds of millions) of dollars in income.

It's not going to kill the criminal syndicates, but it's going to hamper their operations for a long, long while.

I'm not so sure.

Look at non-domestic alcoholic/tobacco products. They're taxed and regulated at dispatch, transported with a certain degree of security and then taxed at the point of import before being distributed at a cost price that's significantly less than the ultimate retail price.

That's why smuggling is such a big problem - buy them cheap, move them free, sell them tax-free.

From a purely fiscal point of view (and neatly sidestepping the rights/wrongs of any legalisation) the same would be true of non-domestic narcotics. The mobs would find plenty of jobs to keep them busy.

The price-per-litre (or kilo) is generally so much higher for narcotics that in the short term you'd see smuggling continue to be big business using the same supply chains that are used now. Would you see a flood of narcotics onto the newly legalised market? Possibly not - those chains would have a vested interest in keeping the supply/demand balance tight!
 
The Netherlands is looking to curb their soft drug policies. They want to "tackle the nuisance and criminality" by making it more difficult for people who want the drugs to get them.



In the United States, it's relatively hard to get drugs. People who want them bad enough get guns first, shoot whoever does have the drugs, and then steal the drugs. Now that's what I called curbing criminality.
That quote doesn't quite reveal the true story.

The Netherlands are mostly seeking to prevent "drug tourism". It's seen as a right of passage to go to Amsterdam and get your kicks legally in much of the UK and western Europe.

What they have proposed in the past is making the bars associated become members only clubs, where local residences or nationals will be the only ones allowed permission.

I'm not sure how it would work allowing only nationals though, the EU has quite a history of undermining this sort of thing.
 
In the United States, it's relatively hard to get drugs. People who want them bad enough get guns first, shoot whoever does have the drugs, and then steal the drugs. Now that's what I called curbing criminality.


I honestly think it's easier to find weed here than it would be to obtain legally somewhere else.

I never really did much more than smoke a lot of weed, and I've since given that up, but I could have pretty much anything I want that day within just a few text messages...

I'm all for legalization of any drug, since in the end, the user is only hurting themselves...but drugs are not hard to come by here in any way.
 
The Netherlands is looking to curb their soft drug policies. They want to "tackle the nuisance and criminality" by making it more difficult for people who want the drugs to get them.

I just read that. Apparently they are going to make it illegal for foreigners to purchase cannabis. They want to stop "drug tourism." {LINK}

Now you'll have local people who will go into the coffee shops to buy the cannabis in large quantities and deal it to the foreigners on their own. That is unless these shops have rules which don't allow you to buy in large quantities or take the product out of the shop with you. I also forsee a fake ID trade springing up because of the new legislation.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. The world gets to see what changes between an openly legalized marijuana economy and one with strict limits. In the next couple years there will be statistics of how the crime rates have been affected and the ripple effect throughout their tourism economy. If it works out for the better, it could result in a huge roadblock to any future legislation for the legalization of marijuana in places like the United States.
 
I just read that. Apparently they are going to make it illegal for foreigners to purchase cannabis. They want to stop "drug tourism...I also forsee a fake ID trade springing up because of the new legislation.

Despite it being a legal requirement for UK educators to teach other European languages I'm afraid that Dutch is rarely offered.

Just because many Dutch people speak almost flawlessly in English don't be fooled into believing that the reverse is true... so I doubt that staff in speciality cafes are going to be fooled very easily :D
 
The staff don't need to be fooled. Bouncers all over the area where I'm from will let underage girls into bars as long as they're cute and they have a fake ID which is remotely believable. I'm sure the same would work in Amsterdam. It's not exactly an area known for being strict -- if you give a doorman your fake ID along with a nice chunk of euros I'm sure you'll have a good chance of getting in.**


**Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a position of little experience. If anyone is here who is Dutch or has better insight into these matters: don't hesitate to correct me. This is pure speculation on my part.
 
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