Fight for $15. (Fast food protest)

[MidFieldMaven]

"The minimum wage is necessary to protect taxpayers from the rational desire of firms to get something for nothing."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/13/why-we-need-a-minimum-wage/

 

[Azuremen]

"The minimum wage is necessary to protect taxpayers from the rational desire of firms to get something for nothing."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/13/why-we-need-a-minimum-wage/

So are you gonna formulate your own words or just continue to cherry pick sensationalist quotes?

 

[MidFieldMaven]

So are you gonna formulate your own words or just continue to cherry pick sensationalist quotes?

Why do I need to add on to what's already painfully obvious? No minimum wage = people working for less, and less, and less, until they're working for free or not at all. The whole country will be on welfare. All higher-paying jobs will decrease in pay.

 

[Azuremen]

Why do I need to add on to what's already painfully obvious? No minimum wage = people working for less, and less, and less, until they're working for free or not at all. The whole country will be on welfare. All higher-paying jobs will decrease in pay.

Because your "painfully" obvious statement is so out of alignment with reality it is almost alarming. You've so overly simplified economics, employment practices, and industrialization that is makes one wonder.

 

[Exorcet]

poster

The boss also says to the unemployed person:

"I'd hire you and pay what I can afford to, but it's illegal."

Why do I need to add on to what's already painfully obvious? No minimum wage = people working for less, and less, and less, until they're working for free or not at all. The whole country will be on welfare. All higher-paying jobs will decrease in pay.

If people don't get payed, they won't work. If people won't work, businesses can't make money. Businesses have to pay because it's how you get workers and make money.

 

[Famine]

Why do I need to add on to what's already painfully obvious? No minimum wage = people working for less, and less, and less, until they're working for free or not at all. The whole country will be on welfare. All higher-paying jobs will decrease in pay.

What do you think happens to jobs when even the most basic jobs that require zero skills pay $15/hr?

Let's say that a company pays all 5 of its employees "1". Each makes "2" of stuff throughout the year and the company makes an annual turnover of "10", making for a profit of "5" (no other expenses - neat). Now a minimum wage of "3" comes in and the company has to pay all 5 of its employees "3". The employees still make "2" of stuff and the company still has an annual turnover of "10", making for a loss of "-5"...

It can't increase turnover because it can't increase productivity and no amount of staff will fix that. All 5 employees will lose their jobs and the company folds. Well done, minimum wage just lost 5 people their jobs and destroyed a small business.

Minimum wage might make those who have jobs better off, but it reduces the number of people who have jobs, making them much worse off. The choice of how much he will work for is no longer the employee's to take to a negotiation with an employer, but a set baseline figure that neither can do anything about.


However, even if you think that somehow all of these jobs would still exist, despite the fact that companies would have to cut staff to remain viable, what do you think happens to an economy when everyone who works is on a basic rate? If you answered "inflation, because to pay for the staff businesses have to put prices up so everything costs more, and currency devaluation because everyone has more money, making everyone overall slightly worse off than before" you'd be right.

Amusingly we keep seeing this when minimum wage is introduced and the solution is always to increase minimum wage a few years later...


Minimum wage only works if you think that giving everyone $1m makes everyone rich. If you think about that for a fraction of a second you'll realise that, no, it makes everyone a millionaire, but it devalues the currency to such an extent that no-one is really any better off.

I'm not sure why there's such a blind spot when it comes to a minimum wage which does exactly the same thing - except it increases unemployment at the same time.

 

[CinnamonOD]

So any entry level office worker here will make less than a New Yorker that flips meat and makes sandwiches?

What a time to be alive.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So any entry level office worker here will make less than a New Yorker that flips meat and makes sandwiches?

What a time to be alive.

I hate to say it... but I'd see more skill/quality in the catering job than the email-opener...

 

[BobK]

So the NY fast food workers get a big boost in their wages. Their employers take a big hit on their payroll. Now they have more of an incentive to automate more so they can reduce their payroll. I'm sure those laid off will take comfort from the fact that they'd be making fifteen dollars an hour if only they still had a job.

 

[CodeRedR51]

The guy making $10/hr at Subway is doing pretty good I think. Too bad he lives in NY City or he'd be much better off.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Automation and robotics are going to render obsolete more than 50% of current human-necessary jobs within the next 20-50 years. Raising minimum wage will increase the speed at which that happens, but eliminating minimum wage will not stop it from happening.

What will we do when over half of the workforce loses their jobs to computers?

 

[CodeRedR51]

What will we do when over half of the workforce loses their jobs to computers?

Well you still need people to create and maintain those computers...

But then of course you have to go to school to learn how to do that and in the USA the cost of schooling is outrageous.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Well you still need people to create and maintain those computers...

So everyone is going to create/maintain computers in the future? Let's use an extreme example and say 9 out of 10 people lose their jobs to computers and robots 100 years from now. Is it fair to assume that those 9 people will be able to learn how to create and maintain the computers that just took their jobs?

 

[Famine]

Automation and robotics are going to render obsolete more than 50% of current human-necessary jobs within the next 20-50 years. Raising minimum wage will increase the speed at which that happens, but eliminating minimum wage will not stop it from happening.

Won't it?

What will we do when over half of the workforce loses their jobs to computers?

Well you still need people to create and maintain those computers...

And if the people (with degrees) you need to maintain the computers and the cost of investing in the technology is greater than the cost of employing some teenage patty-inverters, which do you think companies would prefer?

 

[BobK]

Automation and robotics are going to render obsolete more than 50% of current human-necessary jobs within the next 20-50 years. Raising minimum wage will increase the speed at which that happens, but eliminating minimum wage will not stop it from happening.

What will we do when over half of the workforce loses their jobs to computers?

I would imagine we'd do the same thing folks did when their jobs were made redundant by tractors, plows & threshing machines, or by assembly lines, or any other innovation from the Industrial Age. Too bad about all those buggy whip makers out of work, eh?

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Won't it? And if the people (with degrees) you need to maintain the computers and the cost of investing in the technology is greater than the cost of employing some teenage patty-inverters, which do you think companies would prefer?

Okay you have a point there. It really is tough to predict what the market will do with zero regulation. I do believe some employers would prefer the higher initial cost of automation. I highly doubt that even without regulation, we would remain in a state of limbo, never progressing past human labor into machine labor. We're more than halfway there already. It's inevitable.

 

[McLaren]

Maybe it's just me, but it baffles me that we have to pay someone $15/hour to make this:

I have no shame in admitting I eat McDonalds fairly often when I don't feel like coming home & making something. So usually, depending on what I order, most of the time the food comes out looking like this Burger King meal. Most of the time, there's nothing wrong with it in regards to how it tastes, but for $15/hour, I would assume the guy making these burgers would put in more effort in the presentation of the food to actually reflect how it's advertised. Especially if that $15/hour raise comes at an expense of these places hiking up the cost of the product. Some of McDonald's items like those "special" quarter pounders can already cost close to $10 for the meal & the ads definitely try to showcase something more desirable than a basic double cheeseburger. So, it'd be nice if some dude getting paid $15/hour actually took some pride in his work as fast food burger maker for the money he's being paid.

 

[Tornado]

What most interests me is that the New York wage hike seems specifically targeted towards the least skilled laborers in the work force, and it doesn't even seem like Cuomo pretended to hide that or justify why it was done that way. Has there ever been an industry specific government wage hike before?

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Has anyone who complains about fast food quality and/or workers' wages ever, I dunno, worked a fast food job full-time? You can make fun of it all you want and call it an easy job, but it's really not. Customers complain about the pettiest things ever. There is no sitting down on the job. If you currently sit in a chair all day and get paid for it, YOU have an easier job. I'm so sick of people talking down to people who are trying to make an honest living. If you work 40 hours a week, you deserve a roof over your head and a full fridge. This isn't the 1800s. If fast food wasn't an important job deserving decent pay, why are millions of people eating it every single day across the globe? If you want fast food workers to make less money, stop eating fast food. Go to Red Robin instead and get a GOOD burger.

 

[CodeRedR51]

So everyone is going to create/maintain computers in the future? Let's use an extreme example and say 9 out of 10 people lose their jobs to computers and robots 100 years from now. Is it fair to assume that those 9 people will be able to learn how to create and maintain the computers that just took their jobs?

Maybe not everyone, but some of them could put forth some effort to learn how and be better off for it.

Maybe it's just me, but it baffles me that we have to pay someone $15/hour to make this:

I have no shame in admitting I eat McDonalds fairly often when I don't feel like coming home & making something. So usually, depending on what I order, most of the time the food comes out looking like this Burger King meal. Most of the time, there's nothing wrong with it in regards to how it tastes, but for $15/hour, I would assume the guy making these burgers would put in more effort in the presentation of the food to actually reflect how it's advertised. Especially if that $15/hour raise comes at an expense of these places hiking up the cost of the product. Some of McDonald's items like those "special" quarter pounders can already cost close to $10 for the meal & the ads definitely try to showcase something more desirable than a basic double cheeseburger. So, it'd be nice if some dude getting paid $15/hour actually took some pride in his work as fast food burger maker for the money he's being paid.

Damn you, now I want that. (that's nearly a $10 meal in itself...)

 

[McLaren]

Has anyone who complains about fast food quality and/or workers' wages ever, I dunno, worked a fast food job full-time? You can make fun of it all you want and call it an easy job, but it's really not. Customers complain about the pettiest things ever.

Of course they complain. Fast food advertisements are some of the shadiest I've ever seen in regards to how the food actually comes out.

There is no sitting down on the job. If you currently sit in a chair all day and get paid for it, YOU have an easier job.

You're upset that the job gets generalized as being easy, yet generalize that anyone who sits in a chair for work has it easier. Remind me again how hard burger flipping is to being an accountant?

I'm so sick of people talking down to people who are trying to make an honest living. If you work 40 hours a week, you deserve a roof over your head and a full fridge. This isn't the 1800s.

Who on earth is trying to make an honest living flipping fast food burgers?

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Who on earth is trying to make an honest living flipping fast food burgers?

You'd be surprised. Besides, does it matter? Is 40 hours per week not enough to deserve a roof over one's head and food in the fridge?

And also, television commercials are designed entirely to make the product seem better than it is. If you watch commercials expecting the reality to live up to how the product is presented on television, you're going to have a bad time.

 

[Tornado]

Has anyone who complains about fast food quality and/or workers' wages ever, I dunno, worked a fast food job full-time? You can make fun of it all you want and call it an easy job, but it's really not.

The difficulty in performing the tasks is immaterial compared to the skillset and competency required to perform them.

Is 40 hours per week not enough to deserve a roof over one's head and food in the fridge?

Not if they are working a terrible job and simply expecting to be compensated enough to support themselves.

 

[Slash]

Maybe it's just me, but it baffles me that we have to pay someone $15/hour to make this:

I have no shame in admitting I eat McDonalds fairly often when I don't feel like coming home & making something. So usually, depending on what I order, most of the time the food comes out looking like this Burger King meal. Most of the time, there's nothing wrong with it in regards to how it tastes, but for $15/hour, I would assume the guy making these burgers would put in more effort in the presentation of the food to actually reflect how it's advertised. Especially if that $15/hour raise comes at an expense of these places hiking up the cost of the product. Some of McDonald's items like those "special" quarter pounders can already cost close to $10 for the meal & the ads definitely try to showcase something more desirable than a basic double cheeseburger. So, it'd be nice if some dude getting paid $15/hour actually took some pride in his work as fast food burger maker for the money he's being paid.

The fact that I bust my ass breaking my back doing what I do for nearly half of what they are making to put some frozen beef on a frier angers me to no end.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

The fact that I bust my ass breaking my back doing what I do for nearly half of what they are making to put some frozen beef on a frier angers me to no end.

So go apply to a fast food chain?

 

[Slash]

So go apply to a fast food chain?

Why should I have to?

You're telling me that emergency responders that are responsible for saving human lives (and possibly even your own if something were to happen) that make less than burger flippers and actually have a real, valuable skill worth paying more for someone to have, should just quit their job and go work at McDonald's? Am I reading this right?

Any idiot can go work at a fast food chain. Working fast food, and while I'll admit, isn't as easy as it's made out to be, is not a valuable trade. It's not a trade at all. It's a job for some extra income, not to live off of. If you are high up then sure, live off it. But that is not how minimum wage jobs work.

Plumbers, electricians, auto technicians, first responders, and many others are what are considered to be valuable trades. The fact that a 16 year old kid can go apply to Burger King right now and make more money than someone who has put their time and effort not to mention some of their entire lives devoted into what they do, is absolutely appalling. There is absolutely, absolutely no reason for this.

 

[Northstar]

Has anyone who complains about fast food quality and/or workers' wages ever, I dunno, worked a fast food job full-time? You can make fun of it all you want and call it an easy job, but it's really not. Customers complain about the pettiest things ever. There is no sitting down on the job. If you currently sit in a chair all day and get paid for it, YOU have an easier job. I'm so sick of people talking down to people who are trying to make an honest living. If you work 40 hours a week, you deserve a roof over your head and a full fridge. This isn't the 1800s. If fast food wasn't an important job deserving decent pay, why are millions of people eating it every single day across the globe? If you want fast food workers to make less money, stop eating fast food. Go to Red Robin instead and get a GOOD burger.

Apart from a brief stint working in a factory for a year, I've been working in a retail environment since I was 15 (I'm currently 26). A couple of those years were at a donut shop, a couple at McDonalds and the last 6 1/2 have been at a grocery store doing pretty much everything. I know how customers operate and I know all to well the joys of standing for 8+ hours a day. I can honestly say though, none of those jobs are worthy of being paid $15/hour to do.

Oddly, when I started my current job I was making minimum wage part-time and was barely making rent, I busted my hump though and now the rent gets paid and I have spare cash as well. I don't want people making minimum wage to earn less, it's the opposite. But I don't want it just given to them for no real reason, they should work hard and show themselves as worthy employees worth keeping around.

You'd be surprised. Besides, does it matter? Is 40 hours per week not enough to deserve a roof over one's head and food in the fridge?

First, the people making minimum wage at McDonalds are not getting 40 hours a week, it's more like 20. The people that are working a full 40 are usually above the minimum wage by a fair amount.

As to the point, I would say anyone that works 40 hours a week could probably afford to have a roof over ones head and a full fridge if they are good at keeping a budget. The main setback that seems to be stopping people from doing so is misplaced priorities. I've always wondered how many of those protesting for a higher minimum wages frequent expensive places like Chipotle, have the latest phones, a newer car and other non-essential luxury items.

And also, television commercials are designed entirely to make the product seem better than it is. If you watch commercials expecting the reality to live up to how the product is presented on television, you're going to have a bad time.

So I shouldn't expect that 4 door sedan to really have 4 doors?

We're not talking about slight differences that are pretty excusable, fast food never looks anything like what you actually get.

 

[Slash]

Is 40 hours per week not enough to deserve a roof over one's head and food in the fridge?

Let's get this clear right now. You deserve nothing until you earn it. You do not get things handed to you in this world. You are not owed anything by society. You want a good life with a roof over your head and dinner on the table? Work for it, or suffer.

It's that simple.

Life isn't about hand-me-outs.

Let me give you an example. My dad started working when he was 14. He's put in 100 hour weeks countless times, worked all sorts of sides jobs for 30+ years and as a result has all the things he wants (lets say theoretically nothing outside of this has interfered). Do you think he was given all that? Hell no! He earned it and has the right to have what he wants. The problem I have with this $15/hr thing is the fact that people want freebies and not have to do anything for it. That is not how society and economics work.

The fact this is actually going through makes me want to bitch slap society. Get your heads out of your asses and earn your keep just like everyone else.

I worked a job sanding paint off 80 foot boom lifts (by hand too!) and doing dirty grimey labor for a whopping $9.20/hr. Yeah I bitched and I hated it, but I still got up and went to work every single day and did every bit of that 🤬 job. I know what it's like to work a junk job and know the value of a dollar because of it.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

Let's get this clear right now. You deserve nothing until you earn it. You do not get things handed to you in this world. You are not owed anything by society. You want a good life with a roof over your head and dinner on the table? Work for it, or suffer.

It's that simple.

Life isn't about hand-me-outs.

So people who work 40 hours a week aren't owed enough pay to put a roof over their heads and food in the fridge? Where I'm from, minimum wage is about $8 and the cheapest one-bedroom apartment in the area is no less than $1,000 per month.

People used to raise entire families with one minimum wage income. Why shouldn't that still be possible?

 

[ildd]

For what it's worth, a few of the things recently said are true. Those who work part time, say less than 25 hours a week, make between $7.75 and $8.10 where I work. Depending on how long they have been there, it could be higher. Those who work 40 hours a week, such as myself, make somewhere between $8.50 and $9.20, again depending on how long they have worked there.

The ones who are only regular employees do not deserve $15 an hour. That's ridiculous. It doesn't really matter how long you've been there, it's plain ridiculous. The managers earn somewhere between $12-$15 an hour(40 hours), plus 10-15 hours overtime (50% extra per hour) plus a monthly bonus for consistently meeting their objectives. They are the ones who have to actually work and do regular-job stuff, such as dealing with finances, making sure everything goes out in time and that customers are happy. This isn't to say that some of the regular employees don't work their ass off every day, do others jobs, legitimately care about what their food looks and tastes like, and fill in the managers shoes when they aren't present in hopes of getting more money.

I can basically guarantee you that the ones who are demanding $15 an hour are the ones who cannot hold a job for more than six months at a time because they're flat out lazy or don't like being told what to do. Or both. Obviously there's a ton of honest people working crap jobs that could be demanding $15 as well, but it's in much, much smaller numbers.