FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Terronium-12]

It's an FM vs. GT thread, mate. Just come out with it...someone doesn't like your criticism of either game (so long as it's valid and not something completely asinine) then too bad.

 

[trangurismo]

My opinion on both games:

GT:
- Much better Physics
- Graphics
- Tracks (GT made up tracks are much better than Forza's, IMO)
- Photomode
- Music
- Variety (Rally, NASCAR, Go-Karts)


Forza:
- Customization (Mostly the livery editor)
- Damage Model
- AI
- No Duplicates

 

[t.o.]

My opinion on both games:

GT:
- Graphics (as long as no standard cars are on the track)
- SOME Tracks (SOME GT made up tracks are better than Forza's, IMO)
- Music
- Variety (Rally, NASCAR, Go-Karts-this is more of an honorable mention as it feels tacked on)



Forza:
- Customization
- Some Tracks (Some FM Tracks are better than GT5's. Maple Valley is the KING of made up tracks, IMO)
- Damage Model
- AI
- No Duplicates
- Cockpits for all cars and enough of the "right' cars to recreate almost any real racing series in real life.
- Great multi-player online private options.
- To me, the game has a soul. A certain 'jena se qua'

 

[Luminis]

However I really can't agree with you. You may laugh at me but I know that money comes as a tool for you to make your dream (even better at further point). It's not a point, it's just tool.

I don't think you got my point. The guy with the dream may have started the franchise back in the day, but now it's not his game anymore, it's owned by a company. And while that person might still hold onto that dream, it has become completely secondary to the company's goal, which, as for basically every company, is making as much money as possible.

What you see before you are not games that are made to fulfill a man's dream.

What do you think is Microsoft going to do with the money that they made off of Forza? Give ot to Dan and go "Hi pal, here, have all the revenue to yourself so you can fulfill your dream!"? I kinda doubt that.

Now, this doesn't mean that the games are not influenced by Dan or Kaz. But you can be sure as hell that neither of them would be allowed to take the game and do something to it that would potentially make Microsoft or Sony lose customers.
And what good is having a dream if you can't really do what you want in order to fulfill it? The best example is Sony somewhen supposedly 'forcing' PD and Kaz to release a half-finished game because that 'dream' contradicted the company's goals.

That's all I'm saying, really. The reason FM3 and GT5 were made isn't because of a dream. They were made because they made their companies money. There's just no special something about either games, they're just two pieces of mass media.

Discussing wheher one game is better is fine by me, but starting to argue that the 'dream' that supposedly let to the games creation should be considered when evaltuating it seems plain wrong to me. That's why I said their 'souls' are the same. Just because the 'dreams' that were behind these games differ doesn't mean that both should be measured in different ways. Or rather, if something about them sucks, there's just no excuse, because I feel that that's exactly what you were getting at.

Or, to be blunt:
"GT is a driving simulator, doesn't matter whether the racing sucks, it's about driving and creating a museum of cars." <-- No, it does matter. Both games do that, so whichever does it best gets the point - no matter what the 'soul' or 'dream', or whatver esoteric name you want to use, is like.

 

[Mr Latte]

GT5 could of been much better than it was.
I enjoy it and particulacy find the handling fun but many things are annoying or not as finished as we would of hoped. Too ambitious and felt like it was only dipping into many things rather than doing fewer things but better.

It seems FM4 T10 really do look to make a huge leap forward over FM3.
I'm not concerned over which is best but how FM4 will compare to GT5.

Engine sounds
No dodgy jaggies in shadows
Possibly better interiors
Trees that arnt like paper cut outs
New improved gameplay modes
Proper inclusion of Top Gear and content
Car Clubs

Just a few things but as a complete package I can see FM4 being a great all-round racing game.

 

[GumShoe]

I find that unfortunately with GT5, when it comes to being on the track, I might as well be playing GT2 with better graphics. For all the physics advancements they've implemented, the cars feel mostly the same, the AI are not, and I've never really found a nice feeling of weight transfer and being 'on the edge,' I guess to me it's like the tyres are just rubber coated rocks stuck to stiff springs.
After playing so much of GT2, 3 and 4, I just can't get that excitement out of 5 and it doesn't add anything revolutionary or varied enough to make me want to play it (the slow load times REALLY kill it for me too).

Forza 3 on the other hand, while I found the cars look a bit 'plastic,' I feel the cars have that bit of subtlety on the edge and I feel like I have to balance the car better and I can definitely notice advancement in the physics. But, I think the cockpit view is too static and close to the dash, which sucks because I like using cockpit view (thank goodness for Shift 2 there!).

And I for one don't fall into the 'Kaz's passion and dreams' category of believing I should play his flawed game because it's such a work of passion. To me it's a racing game, I'll get passionate if that's what the game evokes, not because the boss says so. It's like being an Apple fanatic...

Simply put, when I look at the Forza series, my best memories are in Forza 2/3 and I look forward to Forza 4. When I look at the GT series, my best memories are from the older games, and I no longer look forward to GT6

 

[boxox]

Though it's a horrible and vaguely orientalist cliche, I think it's basically right that on one hand you have a very japanese, detail oriented, auteur-ish effort in Gran Turismo, versus a very (very very) american, focus group and user feedback driven effort in Forza. And which you like better is pretty much going to come down to which of those approaches agrees with you more.

So basically GT drives like dee-da-dee, a-dee-da-dee-da-dee-da-dee, and Forza drives like do, do, ch. Do-be-do, do-be-do-be-do.

 

[Spagetti69]

^ I have no idea what you mean mate.

 

[boxox]

 

[Luminis]

And I for one don't fall into the 'Kaz's passion and dreams' category of believing I should play his flawed game because it's such a work of passion. To me it's a racing game, I'll get passionate if that's what the game evokes, not because the boss says so.

That's basically what I was trying to say, just much shorter and more to the point 👍 Thanks, mate.

The games aren't made by Sony and Microsoft so that one person can live their dream, so why should it even be taken into account when criticizing the either game?

 

[PzR Slim]

I was relatively disappointed with FM3 after FM2 but that doesn't come close to how disappointed I feel with GT5. I was sure GT was going to take back it's rightful crown from FM. After such a long wait I was expecting perfection, for it to be the racing game I had always wished for. And whilst the premium cars look stunning and the handling model really is extremely good and enjoyable it is just so lacking in other areas that I feel hugely let down.

After the wait we had for GT5 it had to be perfect, I wish it was but it just isn't. GT games used to be the jewels in my gaming collection but GT5 doesn't see as much game time as others and that's after I bought an extra two monitors, 2 PS3's and 3 copies of the game including a signature edition so I could play triple screen.

FM was the pretender to the crown and I still believed that right up until the release of GT5 but now FM, whilst not as good in some areas, overall is the better game. And with what I have seen from FM4 with more still to be revealed, I believe FM is going to leave GT trailing in it's wake. It makes me sad to say that but I feel it's true. PD massively dropped the ball with GT5 and I'm not sure where they go from here.

Edit: Just to expand on the 'not sure where they go from here' point. I can't see GT6 hitting before FM5. So not only do PD have to improve to the standard that FM4 will undoubtedly set but they need to match the next iteration of the Forza franchise which may be a launch title for the next MS console. And I just can't see PD competing with that.

 

[VXR]

I don't know when it happened, but to me GT2 was fun back in the day. I never felt that with GT4 and have been turned off since. FM1 and its sequels have had a sense of fun, even if that's entirely of my own volition due to how I customise a car. At least it becomes my car and not the designer's perfect vision for it.

If you have little to no desire to mess with cars, then I guess you'd have no reason to touch Forza at all. As a record of the car, who could argue the GT series is the encyclopaedia of the games world.

But I don't care for studying as much as I care about my particular ideas of car culture.

 

[alucard0712]

I don't think you got my point. The guy with the dream may have started the franchise back in the day, but now it's not his game anymore, it's owned by a company. And while that person might still hold onto that dream, it has become completely secondary to the company's goal, which, as for basically every company, is making as much money as possible.

Ok now I understand you! You mean Kaz's dream no more his only dream, he is a prisoner of company, depended on it and feeling some pressure. But anyway - Sony gives him as much money as he want, and he's already somewhat not fulfilled his promises, but make money anyway. I think Sony give him as much freedom as he can, because Kaz understand how to make even more money from game for Sony. Both Sony and Kaz wins from this conversation.

However completely agreed with you.

 

[Luminis]

Ok now I understand you! You mean Kaz's dream no more his only dream, he is a prisoner of company, depended on it and feeling some pressure. But anyway - Sony gives him as much money as he want, and he's already somewhat not fulfilled his promises, but make money anyway. I think Sony give him as much freedom as he can, because Kaz understand how to make even more money from game for Sony. Both Sony and Kaz wins from this conversation.

However completely agreed with you.

Yeah, that's what I meant, at least partially
I just think that there's a huge disparity between what Kaz wants for GT and what Sony wants for GT. And, to make matters worse, most customers probably want GT to be different than what Kaz would want it to be - he said himself that they only added damage because the fans were asking for it. That's where Sony's goals come into play: Whether Kaz likes damage or not, Sony will make sure that stuff like that is added to the game, so it strikes a chord with the audience and sells way.

And since those criteria are just as important as the 'dream' Kaz once had (or mabye still has, I don't know), I think it has no place in a discussion that focuses on comparing Forza and GT. And the same goes for any kind of 'dream' Dan might be talking about - though, in his case, I think it's fairly obvious that it's just a marketing stunt

 

[Bonefork]

PD cares about cars, and making them as accurate as possible.

As far as driving experience at least, they are pretty accurate. They have certainly been improving accuracy more than consumer happiness with each generation of the game.

I drive an '05 BMW 330xi, and was excited about the '05 330i being in GT5, but when it finally arrived in my OCD I found it was actually a 2006 model, which has completely different body design. It also controls nothing like my car, for the record, in the game it slides around like the back two wheels are made out of butter. Not to say Forza's any better, if the M3 was as slippery as it is in Forza there'd be a lot more dead M3 drivers... but the cars are labeled correctly in Forza, so I honestly think they get the "Attention to Detail" point/medal/whatever for that alone.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I drive an '05 BMW 330xi, and was excited about the '05 330i being in GT5, but when it finally arrived in my OCD I found it was actually a 2006 model, which has completely different body design. It also controls nothing like my car, for the record, in the game it slides around like the back two wheels are made out of butter. Not to say Forza's any better, if the M3 was as slippery as it is in Forza there'd be a lot more dead M3 drivers... but the cars are labeled correctly in Forza, so I honestly think they get the "Attention to Detail" point/medal/whatever for that alone.

But it is the 2005 model as that shape came out in March 2005 to buy.
I think you are forgetting most road cars come with a lot of aids on as standard while in the game you have them turned off and a generic traction control system can be used as well as ASM to replicate your real car in terms of feeling.

 

[Luminis]

I drive an '05 BMW 330xi, and was excited about the '05 330i being in GT5, but when it finally arrived in my OCD I found it was actually a 2006 model, which has completely different body design. It also controls nothing like my car, for the record, in the game it slides around like the back two wheels are made out of butter.

Dude, not to defend GT or anything, but you should've realised that your 330xi comes with xDrive and is all-wheel driven, while the 330i is rear wheel driven. If it did control like your 330xi, that'd be a reason to throw GT5 out of the window, but not vice versa.

 

[Ryan81]

I actually quite like what Kaz said about not paying attention to what the competition were doing. He wants to keep GT unique and if he started taking ideas from every racing developer, GT would soon cease to be unique imo. For example, to me Forza is a fantastic series but it just doesn't feel all that unique. It has plenty of cars, tracks etc but ultimately feels quite similar to other racing games, just with more content and for the most part, improved graphics.

 

[cuco33]

People need to stop talking about Kaz's dream as if it's some almighty vision from god. He's a perfectionist to a certain point but even he, as main man in charge, allowed a premium R8 V10 to be modeled with the V8 motor in the bay. And premiums are supposed to be the end all be all.

I know mistakes happen but it seems everything that might be wrong in GT5 comes down to the excuse of 'well Kaz's dream wasn't realized'. PD started off making games. Maybe if Kaz and team weren't so busy keeping everything within the same small team and not wasted countless hours on useless projects not related to GT5's development (GTR hud, Citroen GT design, RedBull X1 design, tons of promo stuff for auto makers like MB's own 'rig' stuff, 4K tech demos spear headed by Sony, list goes on) and not worked on usesless work like Prologues, GTHDs, etc... We might have seen a different game closer to his 'perfect vision'. The biggest reason to my on GT5's existence is mismanagement.
Still, I think the game is great but it clearly has tons of faults all over.

And Forza isn't without it's faults. Many reasons why the game came out with some of the issues it did, like no cockpits at launch, was due to T10 trying to hit a very aggressive target date. To meet this they rushed a bit and cut corners.

Makes me wonder what type of game would be like if you took both parties and developed a GT/Forza game. Would be epic. Sadly they compete with each other pushed forward more by Sony/MS.

 

[PzR Slim]

I actually quite like what Kaz said about not paying attention to what the competition were doing. He wants to keep GT unique and if he started taking ideas from every racing developer, GT would soon cease to be unique imo. For example, to me Forza is a fantastic series but it just doesn't feel all that unique. It has plenty of cars, tracks etc but ultimately feels quite similar to other racing games, just with more content and for the most part, improved graphics.

I just can't agree with this. There is so much missing from GT5 that the majority of modern racing game have that it just makes GT5 look dated not unique.

 

[Luminis]

Makes me wonder what type of game would be like if you took both parties and developed a GT/Forza game. Would be epic. Sadly they compete with each other pushed forward more by Sony/MS.

A while back, I kinda did think so aswell. But, well... What would the outcome be like? I mean, I doubt PD is going to contribute much to the game if they were to work at the pace T10 usually does.
I think it'd turn out a bit like this:

Kaz: "Hey Dan, where's everyone?"
Dan: "Dude, the game's already on the shelves!"
Kaz: "But, it's only been two and a half years! I just went out for a bit of racing, designing cars for a car company, creating HUDs for cars and dreaming up a phantasy car, how can you be done already?"
Dan: "..."

 

[cuco33]

A while back, I kinda did think so aswell. But, well... What would the outcome be like? I mean, I doubt PD is going to contribute much to the game if they were to work at the pace T10 usually does.
I think it'd turn out a bit like this:

Kaz: "Hey Dan, where's everyone?"
Dan: "Dude, the game's already on the shelves!"
Kaz: "But, it's only been two and a half years! I just went out for a bit of racing, designing cars for a car company, creating HUDs for cars and dreaming up a phantasy car, how can you be done already?"
Dan: "..."

I get it that extra work was car related and connections with the auto industry were made but Sony I think was just as at fault pushing PD with the GTHD and Prologue stuff which clearly caused delays w/GT5 and the issues the game has. It's one of those.. but also, it is what it is I guess

 

[Zer0]

From the other thread:

The good thing of a sim is that most of the points can be proved like facts, at the end of the day you are comparing games to real life no games vs games, so most times is easy to know when someone is biased or not.

Well, I'm not too sure about that. There are some things that are plain as day to see when they're off (like no pit stiops in Shift 2), but stuff that's as subtle as the how the cars handle in a game, now that's a completely different ballpark.
I, for example, have absolutely no idea how easy it would be to catch an F40 once it starts to oversteer, so it'll be hard to tell whether they've nailed that or not. Most people haven't driven more than one or two of the cars that are replicated in the game at racing speeds, so it's always just a bit of guestimating. There are a lot of hints as to whether the game is indeed realistic or not, but seperating those from PR talk and bias is always tough, based on just a review.

And, lastly, it's pretty hard to tell how close the game is to the real thing if your yard stick is off a bit itself. For example, if people were to use GT5 as a reference, it might be possible that FM4 is replicating reality more accurately and would still be getting flak for it (which, I think, is happening a lot).

I will put an example. In another forum someone was claiming that the F40 in GT5 was not realistic because a '80s lightweight RWD car with no aids and nearly 500HP can't be floored from a standing start without any wheelspin. Just wasting a few minutes digging for real drive reports or vids will note that this is how the car is suppossed to behave and that the massive turbolag and specific driving techniques were translated accurately into GT5.

Another example was with the Enzo. Someone put in doubt the physics of the game because the car went straight in a turn at 80kmh. Another little research will explain how the aerodynamics works in that specific car and its understeer behaviour in tight corners. Even there is a vid showing that, the famous Eddie Griffin crash.

Most times the wrong claims are because people are comparing their favourite games vs other games and drag its inaccuracies as the benchmark for the competition. There's no better example to confirm facts than real life. Not always possible I agree, but not as difficult as people think. There are lot of RL vids, individual car reviews and technical docs that can help to teach what game is closer at the driving inputs and physical car behaviour without the need to test by yourself the same car in real life and perform the same situations.

 

[Bonefork]

But it is the 2005 model as that shape came out in March 2005 to buy.

No, the manufacturer gives the cars dates. 2005 was the E46 model, 2006 was the E96. It's labeled wrong, plain and simple... at least as far as North America is concerned.

Dude, not to defend GT or anything, but you should've realised that your 330xi comes with xDrive and is all-wheel driven, while the 330i is rear wheel driven. If it did control like your 330xi, that'd be a reason to throw GT5 out of the window, but not vice versa.

I know this. I also know my car has ABS and traction control. I didn't mean to directly compare the two models as I did. It's not the only car I've ever driven. For what it's worth, none of the cars I've driven on the road have their unique characteristics well represented in the games... but to be fair a lot of what makes up the personality of a car is not replicable in a game.

 

[Luminis]

Most times the wrong claims are because people are comparing their favourite games vs other games and drag its inaccuracies as the benchmark for the competition. There's no better example to confirm facts than real life. Not always possible I agree, but not as difficult as people think. There are lot of RL vids, individual car reviews and technical docs that can help to teach what game is closer at the driving inputs and physical car behaviour without the need to test by yourself the same car in real life and perform the same situations.

I agree that you can (and should) compare the game to real life where possible and on some parts, it's relatively easy. Thing is, when you're watching a video, it's not always possible to see what's happening inside the car.
I know a few people that base their assumptions of how wild a car should be on Top Gear videos, for example - and we all now every car is sliding its rear wheels of there

And, well, go find a fitting review for, say, a Honda Fit or the like. Or modified cars.

You're right, of course, comparing to real life is what you have to do. My points are: A) It's not always possible and seldom easy, B) lots of people don't bother and take their preffered game as the yard stick, C) even with the best of real life footage will leave some things to be desired.

For the F40 example, I think it's plain as day to see that GT5 looks closer on first glance. I'm just not sold on the whole idea that GT5 has it 100% and Forza is 100% off. Especially considering that the F40 isn't the only car to go by.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

No, the manufacturer gives the cars dates. 2005 was the E46 model, 2006 was the E96. It's labeled wrong, plain and simple... at least as far as North America is concerned.

I doubt PD will go to the lengths to localize the year for the car specifically for the North American version of the game. Otherwise a lot of dates would be missing as some of the cars in the game did not make it over to the USA officially. They will just put the it to when it was first officially launched. Also ain't the model an E90?

 

[cuco33]

No, the manufacturer gives the cars dates. 2005 was the E46 model, 2006 was the E96. It's labeled wrong, plain and simple... at least as far as North America is concerned.

Just an FYI but it also depends on the region the car is sold to. Europe generally gets car models 1-2 years before North America does. Sometimes there are 1/2 year models too. My car is a 2005 Audi A4 USP and is the B6 gen, but in late 2005 the revamped B7 w/the big grill was released in North America. I think in EU, they had the B7 in 2004 already.

 

[GumShoe]

I will put an example. In another forum someone was claiming that the F40 in GT5 was not realistic because a '80s lightweight RWD car with no aids and nearly 500HP can't be floored from a standing start without any wheelspin. Just wasting a few minutes digging for real drive reports or vids will note that this is how the car is suppossed to behave and that the massive turbolag and specific driving techniques were translated accurately into GT5.

Another example was with the Enzo. Someone put in doubt the physics of the game because the car went straight in a turn at 80kmh. Another little research will explain how the aerodynamics works in that specific car and its understeer behaviour in tight corners.

This is another problem in having factual debate, people can find what they want to prove their point. I.e. 'this game is accurate because car x does this like real life' where another can say 'no it's not accurate because car x doesn't do that.' This is for any racing game. Unfortunately no game has got it 100% right so far so there are always things to point out as being right or wrong.

An interesting case here is Shift 2. Because Shift 2 was also released on PC, modders have been through all the files and know what the game does, and doesn't simulate properly. Even with all the evidence of what is being simulated well, I still see many arguments about the physics being terrible etc (misunderstanding steering lag/ffb issues for a bad physics engine). The devs only softened the tyre grip dropoff around 5% to assit pad users.

We don't have that luxury with Forza and GT, so it all remains in the realm of speculation and what we can test within the game, which can often be presented to back up any view, good or bad.

One thing seems obvious to me, GT5 struggles to simulate tyres/suspension, Forza 3 does a fairly decent job of tyres but also struggles with suspension. (Shift 2 does suspension really well, watch a replay going over bumps/curbs/jumps, it makes the others look instantly very basic)

 

[ICEYOU]

GT: Better graphics

Not anymore unfortunately.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Not anymore unfortunately.

We won't know that until the actual game is released.