- 3,549
- Taipei
- GTP_ghskilla
We said that last year, look who won in both.
Formula 1 Eni Magyar Nagydíj 2012
- Thread starter ghskilla
- 576 comments
- 33,281 views
- Status
We said that last year, look who won in both.
- 630
- New York City
- albtifosi
That is very true but the field is much more competitive this year then last. I think Ferrari is going to take spa and Mclaren is taking Monza. But of course it is only my opinion.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
But the gap in performance between the RB8 and the rest of the field is much, much closer compared to the RB7. Take, for example, the Ferrari F2012 - in the hands of any other driver, it would probably be third- or fourth-best, but Alonso already has three wins. And if Hockenheim is anything to go by, McLaren are back on form (and have more updates on the way for Hungary). And Lotus might not have followed through on their potential, but they still have that potential and should not be written off. You could even make a case for Sauber being strong here; the German Grand Prix was really the first race where the whole team had a good weekend, and they will be wanting to follow through on that. So there are as many as eight other cars that could be in contention going into this race and the summer break.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Indeed. This will be a tough back-half for RBR. Especially with this:
That will be a blow to Red Bull.
Unfortunately, when you have a car that sounds like it's still using diffuser-effect maps, many, many, many questions will be asked.
I think RBR's "miraculous" tire conservation that allowed them to pip Alonso a few races back will be less of a factor this time around.
That will be a blow to Red Bull.
Unfortunately, when you have a car that sounds like it's still using diffuser-effect maps, many, many, many questions will be asked.
I think RBR's "miraculous" tire conservation that allowed them to pip Alonso a few races back will be less of a factor this time around.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Ugh, playing the victim card again.
The fact is that although the rules are black and white, Red Bull were in a grey area. And once you mix black and white, it doesn't matter how much white you keep adding to it because it's always going to be a little bit grey. The FIA doesn't like what Red Bull are doing, and so they are moving to ban it.
For Horner to spend three races demanding that the FIA rule on Mercedes' front wing (even after he claimed he wanted a "final ruling") and then complain when the FIA declare something on his cars to be illegal is deeply hypocritical.
The fact is that although the rules are black and white, Red Bull were in a grey area. And once you mix black and white, it doesn't matter how much white you keep adding to it because it's always going to be a little bit grey. The FIA doesn't like what Red Bull are doing, and so they are moving to ban it.
For Horner to spend three races demanding that the FIA rule on Mercedes' front wing (even after he claimed he wanted a "final ruling") and then complain when the FIA declare something on his cars to be illegal is deeply hypocritical.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Or perhaps "it's not a crime if we're the ones committing it", but that might be a bit too brazen for a snake oil salesman.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Spin is spin. 
This may be the make-or-break race for Lewis and McLaren. If they can't make it here, they won't make it anywhere. If he falls too far back to Alonso, he won't realistically be in the hunt for the title.
Ferrari is on a roll, and with the banning of Red Bull's maps, they should be even stronger than the RBR here. Lotus will stand to benefit, too.
I don't see Mercedes making any big headway... Lotus Renault has completely passed them at this point. The only question is where they'll fall with respect to Williams and Sauber.
This may be the make-or-break race for Lewis and McLaren. If they can't make it here, they won't make it anywhere. If he falls too far back to Alonso, he won't realistically be in the hunt for the title.
Ferrari is on a roll, and with the banning of Red Bull's maps, they should be even stronger than the RBR here. Lotus will stand to benefit, too.
I don't see Mercedes making any big headway... Lotus Renault has completely passed them at this point. The only question is where they'll fall with respect to Williams and Sauber.
- 905
- United States
- Bye_Ya
This race could very likely be the biggest for momentum leading into the latter part of the season. If Alonso takes another win, both McLaren and Red Bull will have to come off the back foot for the 2nd half.
The biggest factors I see are whether Ferrari's improvements also include tire degradation, because it's huge at this track. With that being said, McLaren have already had issues getting their tires to last (at least with Jenson). Upgrades or not, I think it's going to be a pressing issue for them come Sunday. With Red Bull I think it can go either way. We'll see how much the engine maps affect their pace, but if their previous pace wasn't legitimate then they don't deserve it.
The biggest factors I see are whether Ferrari's improvements also include tire degradation, because it's huge at this track. With that being said, McLaren have already had issues getting their tires to last (at least with Jenson). Upgrades or not, I think it's going to be a pressing issue for them come Sunday. With Red Bull I think it can go either way. We'll see how much the engine maps affect their pace, but if their previous pace wasn't legitimate then they don't deserve it.
Last edited:
- 23,800
- Philippines
I don't think their basic pace will be affected, but since the engine mapping made for even better tire preservation on corner exit (by artificially limiting torque), then their great end-of-race pace will definitely be affected.
Mapping the torque curve like that is effectively implementing traction control at the engine-level.
Mapping the torque curve like that is effectively implementing traction control at the engine-level.
- 3,915
- California
- gdwest1
Why dont they just seal the ECU? You get "The Program". That is all. It would eliminate most of these problems...
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I believe throttle maps need to be tailored to meet the individual demands of the car. After all, the rule Red Bull stood accused of breaking mandated that the throttle could only be open to a certain extent that was directly-proportional to the amount of torque being produced. Providing one engine map for twelve different cars would likely be inefficient for most of them at best, and damage them at worst.
The latest talk is that the rule amendment will dictate that there must be a linear relationship between the angle of the thorttle and the torque produced, with an allowance of plus or minus 2%, which will basically limit anyone's ability to force additional air through the car.
With the talk that Red Bull's engine mapping could be used as a primitive form of traction control by limiting the amount of torque produced for the angle the throttle was open (thereby stopping wheelspin if the driver opened the throttle too much), one has to wonder why Red Bull chose these maps in particular - were they after the additional downforce it produced, or the traction control effect (or both)?
The latest talk is that the rule amendment will dictate that there must be a linear relationship between the angle of the thorttle and the torque produced, with an allowance of plus or minus 2%, which will basically limit anyone's ability to force additional air through the car.
With the talk that Red Bull's engine mapping could be used as a primitive form of traction control by limiting the amount of torque produced for the angle the throttle was open (thereby stopping wheelspin if the driver opened the throttle too much), one has to wonder why Red Bull chose these maps in particular - were they after the additional downforce it produced, or the traction control effect (or both)?
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I was wondering if they were after it for the traction control effect because the RB8 was producing excess wheelspin early in the season and they needed to settle the car down.
I guess we'll only know for sure on Sunday.
I guess we'll only know for sure on Sunday.
- 23,800
- Philippines
Now that you mentioned it... I'd forgotten about the wheelspin issue that Vettel seemed to be suffering from... back when Webber was outperforming him... which strengthens the case that the maps are specifically for this purpose, at least in part.
- 207
- Finland
- TMguardian-FINN
According to latest rumours, FIA will make clarifications to rules before Hungarian GP. Mainly to prevent "illegal" throttle maps used by Red Bull last weekend.
source: (in Finnish)
www.mtv3.fi/F1
source: (in Finnish)
www.mtv3.fi/F1
- 2,376
- Stockholm, Swe
- GTP_Anghammarad
I honestly dont know. What I do know however is that the next race after Hungary will be won by Räikkönen.
- 2,938
- Shrewsbury
- pezzarinho17
- 311
- Charlotte, NC
Will Alonso get lucky again? 
- 23,800
- Philippines
Will Alonso get lucky again?
One win in extraordinary circumstances (like say, if you're Maldonado) is luck. Consistently being on the podium and leading the championship after starting the season off on the back foot while your teammate flounders in the midfield? That's something else.
But given McLaren's tire problems and the new rules clarification for Red Bull... Yes, he may get "lucky" again.
- 2,621
- Blaze_409
Arguably Alonso should not have won Valencia. The Renault alternators decided to give up the ghost and that rarely ever happens.
But for him to win Malaysia when the car was probably no better than an HRT and then win Germany in total control he's just doing a very good job.
But for him to win Malaysia when the car was probably no better than an HRT and then win Germany in total control he's just doing a very good job.
- 630
- New York City
- albtifosi
Best driver on the grid easy.
- 23,800
- Philippines
"Luck" is just part of the game. Drivers make their own luck by being in the right place at the right time. Alonso has made very few mistakes this season and has pushed as hard as possible, never giving up, to keep himself in the points. If he wasn't pushing, he wouldn't have been in position to win when others faltered.
Alonso, like Lewis, has the ability to extract a lap time from a dog of a car that puts it several places up from where it's supposed to be. This is part of what made their duel in McLaren on Lewis's rookie year so exciting. But unlike Lewis, Alonso has the ability to do that over race distance, too. Even on Massa's best days (in which he's as good as he was before the accident...), Alonso is always two or three places up on him by the end.
And now he has a car that's easily in the top half of the grid. That means that seven place bonus the Ferrari gets from having Alonso behind the wheel means 1st place instead of 6th or 7th.
And he's a pay-driver, to boot. Win-win situation for Scuderia.
Alonso, like Lewis, has the ability to extract a lap time from a dog of a car that puts it several places up from where it's supposed to be. This is part of what made their duel in McLaren on Lewis's rookie year so exciting. But unlike Lewis, Alonso has the ability to do that over race distance, too. Even on Massa's best days (in which he's as good as he was before the accident...), Alonso is always two or three places up on him by the end.
And now he has a car that's easily in the top half of the grid. That means that seven place bonus the Ferrari gets from having Alonso behind the wheel means 1st place instead of 6th or 7th.
And he's a pay-driver, to boot. Win-win situation for Scuderia.
- 13,827
- Down under
I see BBC placed him 10th on the all-time list. If SV pops up ahead of him on that list, I might just consign that news source to the recycle bin on my laptop.
- 23,800
- Philippines
10th? I'd put Alonso in the top five, easy.
If four current drivers are on the list... that means Kimi made it ahead of Alonso. An arguable choice. Kimi might have the advantage in raw speed or skill, but Alonso has proven himself more adaptable and more tactical than the Iceman.
That's one of the nine down. Then there's Schumacher (obviously), Fangio, Lauda, Stewart, Prost, Mansell and Senna. I can see Alonso going two or three places up into that group.
But there's one more... and no familiar names come to mind. Who am I missing?
Unless they made a mistake counting and five current drivers are on the list... in which case, they may have promoted Vettel over Alonso, as well. Also a questionable choice, though there's no denying Sebastian is a brilliantly quick qualifier.
If four current drivers are on the list... that means Kimi made it ahead of Alonso. An arguable choice. Kimi might have the advantage in raw speed or skill, but Alonso has proven himself more adaptable and more tactical than the Iceman.
That's one of the nine down. Then there's Schumacher (obviously), Fangio, Lauda, Stewart, Prost, Mansell and Senna. I can see Alonso going two or three places up into that group.
But there's one more... and no familiar names come to mind. Who am I missing?
Unless they made a mistake counting and five current drivers are on the list... in which case, they may have promoted Vettel over Alonso, as well. Also a questionable choice, though there's no denying Sebastian is a brilliantly quick qualifier.
Last edited:
- 3,915
- California
- gdwest1
I wouldnt call Vettel one of the best "Ever" drivers.
For instance, I'm certain if he were in Indy, or the BTCC, or DTM, he wouldnt have half the success he has now, because he simply cant deal with traffic. In a field where cars are mostly similar, if he wasnt on the front row, he would have problems.
Vettel would be a great rally driver, out by himself all day. Introduce some overtaking? You can find much better overtakers than Vettel. Even in his own team.
- Status
