Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prêmio De São Paulo 2021Formula 1 

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Famine
The stewards also took the opportunity to "remind" Lewis Hamilton of "his responsibilities as a role model to up-and-coming drivers"...


The rest of this post writes itself. Mindblowing.
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Perhaps they meant drivers and not racers?
Rossell2
I've viewed the footage now of RunWideGate and I'd also like to see Verstappens cockpit view to see where that steering was. That was either deliberate or clumsy. Either way he ran him off the track in my view.
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Yeah it does seem like it. Verstappen seemed to have it under control, but decided to go off track and push Hamilton off. It's a dirty move and now that they allowed it, drivers will probably take advantage.
 
PaMu1337
Nah they won't, because everyone knows that the stewards are inconsistent as hell, and a more minor incident in the future will result in a penalty.
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True, I'm guessing if there was contact they would've penalized, but then they also said they don't base penalties on outcome.

Though I'm not sure about how the whole decision to not investigate plays out. How much of a look into it do they have before they decide and who makes the decision?
 
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Decent race, good drive from Hamilton, Merc found some good pace in that car this weekend.

The incident? Honestly couldn’t care less, investigate it, don’t investigate it, couldn’t give a monkeys, it was tense and exciting and allows the race to be decided on(off) the track rather than an office. And regardless of your opinion of the move, no one wants this epic title fight decided in an office, that would simply be a travesty.

What I do expect from this, is clarification in the drivers briefing at Qatar, being a circuit with many run offs, on why it wasn’t investigated, and I would imagine a new permanent stewards team alongside Masi, to at the very least ensure consistency in decisions. The whole point of driver stewards was to present a viewpoint from a racer, it’s never worked, while racers need a viewpoint, Mick Doohan isn’t going to be able to give a fair driver viewpoint on F1 compared to, say, Johnny Herbert. I don’t even know if they still use driver stewards but either way, there needs to be fundamental changes because the standards have generally been poor and highly inconsistent.
 
I don't agree that drivers can 'take the racing line' and crowd other drivers off the track. If someone is on the outside going around a corner, I believe they have every right to racing room as someone on the inside of a corner. I don't agree with what Verstappen did, but seeing as this happens almost every race with the driver on the inside running the driver on the outside out of track, I don't see how what he did is any worse than any other incident.
 
MagpieRacer
no one wants this epic title fight decided in an office
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No, nobody does, but an incident in the fourth-last race of the season not being investigated doesn't mean that at all.

We've already had numerous incidents across the season where a stewarding decision has impacted race results, and if any one of them had not had that outcome, the current title picture - and indeed the "epic title fight" - would be different, thus deciding it "in an office". We nearly had one this weekend, where stewards disqualified a driver for a broken component on their car (though it turned out not to matter, somehow)... Indeed if none of them were investigated at all, we'd likely see a completely different championship.

To pluck a random example out of the air, imagine if Sergio Perez hadn't been given two five-second penalties for forcing another driver off the circuit at Austria (back when that was a thing that got you a penalty). Red Bull would be leading the constructor championship right now. Are we to decry those decisions as a "travesty" for deciding the title fight "in an office", or does it only count in November not July?

More importantly, it also doesn't mean you ignore clear-cut dangerous driving because you don't want it "decided in an office". When drivers drive like absolute bell ends, the stewards must take action. Or at least I thought they must.


The office is, unfortunately, a necessary evil, because sometimes drivers - and teams - act like complete weapons. Sometimes decisions need to be made there, and sometimes it affects the titles. The alternative is a race to the bottom for driving standards, and that means someone will die.
 
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Iam sure we will see on Wednesday on the F1 report on sky, by then they will have the 360 camera from Max’s car. Too late though as i dont think Merc can appeal it. Great race anyway, hard racing at the front, and will have to be for the last 3. Botttas needs to take points off max though i think. This going to be tight, surely and hopefully going down to winner the final race.
 
Blame the paved runoff areas as well. For most of the sport’s history, you ran a driver off the track, they were in extreme danger.
 
FEL1yfJXsAs3urc.jpeg

Ironically grabbed this screenshot from someone trying to defend Max. For how far they go off track Max's wheel is barely turned at this point.

I take back what I said before, this championship is over.
 
Are there any rules about changing your engine too often? Mercedes may as well just bring a new ICE for Lewis at every race and have him start 6th.
 
Personally I want a title fight. But it is becoming increasingly clear that the FIA considers passing on the outside a nuisance and something something to be punished. I think Max deserved a penalty for this one, the same one lap 1 in Monza and that Lewis has deserved his penalty at Silverstone.

This type of 'run the driver off' defense or passing is a total joke, and that attitude is becoming more and more prevalent in many more series as well as in online racing. They need to stomp this down. There is never an explanation of what is acceptable and what isn't. Running people off wide wasn't allowed at RBR this year for instance, but allowed everywhere else.

Great we had a close battle, great it wasn't decided by a crash, but the stewards have got to sort their act out. Watching Max's rear wing flapping like a towel on the washing line makes a total mockery of Lewis penalty for the DRS wing as well.

Please just let it be sorted cleanly on track so we can tell the stewards to go away.
 
Pretty fun race that was unusual in that most of the action and excitement was at the front, not too much going on further down the field.

The incident was moot in the end but It looked very much like forcing a driver off the track from what we saw.

What I don't get is the "No investigation necessary" wording, and It's bothered me generally for a while. It's a misnomer, because how do you decide not to investigate something without investigating it? What did they look at to decide not to look at it? Surely you have to look at all the data to make that decision, at which point you've basically investigated it.

EDIT: I also don't buy the "We let them race" explanation. Racing takes place on the race track, racing is two cars driving side by side through a corner and fighting it out cleanly. It's not one car forcing another driver off the track or they crash. HAM was making the corner, VER was not.
 
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I don't know how to feel anymore. Do I get upset, do I worry, do I complain, do I cry, or do I just ignore the next 3 races and pretend that I don't care? Hamilton's pace was sus and I'm starting to wonder if Mercedes are playing the system when it comes to engines. The whole idea of grid penalties is to deter teams from using more than 3 engines but I think Mercedes are casually exploiting the rule. They know that if they turn up the engines enough, they'll be able to overcome the grid penalty. Intentionally replacing engines for a performance gain defeats the purpose of such rulings and I cannot believe that the FIA haven't stepped in to ask what's going on. Being 20 seconds behind in Mexico to 10 seconds ahead in Brazil is curious so there's no doubt in my mind that Mercedes are gaming the system. Verstappen had no choice but to take on a 4th engine because one of them was destroyed, but this hasn't been the case with Mercedes. They're voluntarily using more engines and that's not in the spirit of the competition and it subverts the ruling.

Then again this will be a moot point if Verstappen wins the championship.
 
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CLowndes888
I don't know how to feel anymore. Do I get upset, do I worry, do I complain, do I cry, or do I just ignore the next 3 races and pretend that I don't care? Hamilton's pace was sus and I'm starting to wonder if Mercedes are playing the system when it comes to engines. The whole idea of grid penalties is to deter teams from using more than 3 engines but I think Mercedes are casually exploiting the rule. They know that if they turn up the engines enough, they'll be able to overcome the grid penalty. Intentionally replacing engines for a performance gain defeats the purpose of such rulings and I cannot believe that the FIA haven't stepped in to ask what's going on. Being 20 seconds behind in Mexico to 10 seconds ahead in Brazil is curious so there's no doubt in my mind that Mercedes are gaming the system. Verstappen had no choice but to take on a 4th engine because one of them was destroyed, but this hasn't been the case with Mercedes. They're voluntarily using more engines and that's not in the spirit of the competition and it subverts the ruling.

Then again this will be a moot point if Verstappen wins the championship.
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If Mercedes takes another engine penalty in Qatar or at any of the remaining races, I'll entertain your idea otherwise, I feel like you are just pulling at straws. From my view of the season so far, every F1 team with a Merc power unit have had retirements or have taken penalties for replacing engines components. Their reliability has seriously fallen off a cliff this season. The same cannot be said for Honda. They've been nearly bulletproof. Its really interesting to see how the table have turn considering a few years ago they used what almost 15 engines in 1 season...I take this for what it is, Mercedes reliability is not what it used to be. That aside, check this link for yourself.

racingnews365.com

Which F1 drivers are on the brink of engine penalties?

Almost all drivers on the 2021 F1 grid have been hit with penalties for engine changes this season, and more could follow at the Brazilian Grand Prix.
racingnews365.com racingnews365.com

There's a table showing how many parts each driver has taken this season and looking at the data, I can't really see that Mercedes has been playing the system especially when Lewis is only now on his fourth allocation - 1 more than what's allowed.
 
The 1 time Mercedes taking a new engine pays off and all of the sudden, the rules are being "exploited", something "fishy" is going on, borderline, "Merc must be cheating" accusations implied. On top of this with it being known ahead of time, Lewis would be getting a new engine.

“Lewis Hamilton will definitely need a new engine”: Red Bull advisor insists that the Mercedes driver will be receiving grid penalties due to engine change in one of the remaining races - Nov. 4th, 2021​

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thesportsrush.com

"Lewis Hamilton will definitely need a new engine": Red Bull advisor insists that the Mercedes driver will be receiving grid penalties due to engine change in one of the remaining races

Red Bull boss Helmut Marko is sure that Lewis Hamilton will receive a grid penalty due to engine change in one of the remaining race weekends.
thesportsrush.com thesportsrush.com
 
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LordExia
If Mercedes takes another engine penalty in Qatar or at any of the remaining races, I'll entertain your idea otherwise, I feel like you are just pulling at straws. From my view of the season so far, every F1 team with a Merc power unit have had retirements or have taken penalties for replacing engines components. Their reliability has seriously fallen off a cliff this season. The same cannot be said for Honda. They've been nearly bulletproof. Its really interesting to see how the table have turn considering a few years ago they used what almost 15 engines in 1 season...I take this for what it is, Mercedes reliability is not what it used to be. That aside, check this link for yourself.

racingnews365.com

Which F1 drivers are on the brink of engine penalties?

Almost all drivers on the 2021 F1 grid have been hit with penalties for engine changes this season, and more could follow at the Brazilian Grand Prix.
racingnews365.com racingnews365.com

There's a table showing how many parts each driver has taken this season and looking at the data, I can't really see that Mercedes has been playing the system especially when Lewis is only now on his fourth allocation - 1 more than what's allowed.
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Hamilton has used 5 ICE's this year. But the strange thing about this is that taking on a 4th ICE results in a 10-place grid drop but every subsequent engine change after that only results in a 5-place grid drop. So if Mercedes really wanted to, they could use 3 more engines for Hamilton. They clearly don't care how many they use because the performance gains allow them to overcome the penalty. Mercedes say that they're having reliability issues but none of their cars have retired, whilst their customer teams have to suffer.
McLaren
The 1 time Mercedes taking a new engine pays off and all of the sudden, the rules are being "exploited", something "fishy" is going on, borderline, "Merc must be cheating" accusations implied. On top of this with it being known ahead of time, Lewis would be getting a new engine.

thesportsrush.com

"Lewis Hamilton will definitely need a new engine": Red Bull advisor insists that the Mercedes driver will be receiving grid penalties due to engine change in one of the remaining races

Red Bull boss Helmut Marko is sure that Lewis Hamilton will receive a grid penalty due to engine change in one of the remaining race weekends.
thesportsrush.com thesportsrush.com
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How do you explain the speed differential then? How come Hamilton was soo much faster than Verstappen in the speed trap? Verstappen didn't have a hope against Hamilton in the slipstream with DRS. How can things swing soo fast?
 
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CLowndes888
How do you explain the speed differential then? How come Hamilton was soo much faster than Verstappen in the speed trap? Verstappen didn't have a hope against Hamilton in the slipstream with DRS. How can things swing soo fast?
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Because it's a new engine reportedly turned up back to "Party Mode" or whatever they call it on a car built for higher speed than the Red Bulls? I didn't see what the speed traps were for today, but yesterday, Max was slower than most of the field.
Interlagos-speed-trap.v1.jpg


There have also been comments that Lewis' high speed traps could also be benefiting off his tows/slipstreams since he made it a point to back off from whoever is in front of him before Juncao so he could carry in more speed & pass them on the main straight with the DRS.
 
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So I just finished watching a replay of the race.

Firstly, that was quite possibly the greatest performance from Lewis Hamilton I think I've ever seen. Gets DQ'd in qualifying, puts in an absolutely electrifying result in the fat-free race, and manages to take the win at the end. Man basically had a 25-grid place penalty and still came out on top. That was an amazing, amazing performance, imo one of the best of the whole season.

On the flipside, I don't think I've ever been more frustrated with both Verstappen and the FIA in a single weekend. I get that the man is fighting for his first championship, but his driving style really gets to me sometimes. There was absolutely no real attempt from him to take Turn 4 cleanly, and I think the fact he ran himself wide shows that. It was basically a repeat of his incident with LecLerc in Austria 2019, which I still maintain was a dirty-ass move. I also feel like he moved under braking into Turn 1 before the Turn 4 incident. The man absolutely has incredible speed, and imo will probably still win the title this year, but it regularly feels like a game of Russian Roulette when someone tries to pass him. And then for the FIA to not only deem said incident as "no investigation necessary," but to also claim that they didn't have access to Max's onboard footage (which I don't get, since they literally own and control all the camera footage), and give Hamilton crap for not being a "good role model?" 🤬 outta here.

Otherwise, good things happening up and down the grid this weekend. Ferrari put in yet another solid performance, and is looking like they've got a strong hold on 3rd in the WCC this year (though I'm still hopeful for McLaren to gain some ground). Gasly put in some solid moves himself, and I think Yuki was doing pretty decently after his incident, up until his retirement. Ocon also did pretty well for himself, and I imagine Alpine will be very happy gaining a few extra points over AlphaTauri.

Also, no-chill Toto is best Toto, though I imagine it would get old very quickly if this was him all the time.

Edit: I suck at math.
 
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CLowndes888
Hamilton has used 5 ICE's this year. But the strange thing about this is that taking on a 4th ICE results in a 10-place grid drop but every subsequent engine change after that only results in a 5-place grid drop. So if Mercedes really wanted to, they could use 3 more engines for Hamilton. They clearly don't care how many they use because the performance gains allow them to overcome the penalty. Mercedes say that they're having reliability issues but none of their cars have retired, whilst their customer teams have to suffer.

How do you explain the speed differential then? How come Hamilton was soo much faster than Verstappen in the speed trap? Verstappen didn't have a hope against Hamilton in the slipstream with DRS. How can things swing soo fast?
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Like I said, if Mercedes take another penalty for engine components at the next races, I'll entertain your idea, until then I'll see it for what it is just plain old unreliability issues. Also, do you think the customer team is on the same level as the manufacturer? Merc make their engine, their car is designed around their engines so I'm pretty sure they can nurse them better than their customer teams and prevent issues.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure Mercedes straight line speed has always been strong this season. My theory is that is they were probably still running those previous engine somewhat conservatively to make sure they last. Now that they have taken a penalty for a unit that they know will only be running for 4 races they just running the engine at 100%....I may be wrong but that's how I'm looking at it. Until the facts comes out to show otherwise, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt just like I've done for all the teams....even Red Bull.....and speaking of Red Bull, when they go to a track and they are completely untouchable, do you also ask why they are so strong? I mean come on... there's been races this season where Max was running in a league of his own...heck he's won 9 races so far and when he's not first he's more than likely 2nd....another thing, we all know different tracks have different characteristics that affect cars and drivers differently, some benefits and some don't so I don't see this as a shock and most certainly not suspicious. Lastly, it's a brand new engine, the expectation is that the new engine will always give the driver a boost because it's "new", a concept quite similar to regular cars on the road from when they are new to when they are 15 years old and done over 300,000 miles. You are not going to get the same level of performance.
 
McLaren
Because it's a new engine reportedly turned up back to "Party Mode" or whatever they call it on a car built for higher speed than the Red Bulls? I didn't see what the speed traps were for today, but yesterday, Max was slower than most of the field.
Interlagos-speed-trap.v1.jpg


There have also been comments that Lewis' high speed traps could also be benefiting off his tows/slipstreams since he made it a point to back off from whoever is in front of him before Juncao so he could carry in more speed & pass them on the main straight with the DRS.
Click to expand...
I'd like to see the speeds for Mexico.
LordExia
Like I said, if Mercedes take another penalty for engine components at the next races, I'll entertain your idea, until then I'll see it for what it is just plain old unreliability issues. Also, do you think the customer team is on the same level as the manufacturer? Merc make their engine, their car is designed around their engines so I'm pretty sure they can nurse them better than their customer teams and prevent issues.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure Mercedes straight line speed has always been strong this season. My theory is that is they were probably still running those previous engine somewhat conservatively to make sure they last. Now that they have taken a penalty for a unit that they know will only be running for 4 races they just running the engine at 100%....I may be wrong but that's how I'm looking at it. Until the facts comes out to show otherwise, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt just like I've done for all the teams....even Red Bull.....and speaking of Red Bull, when they go to a track and they are completely untouchable, do you also ask why they are so strong? I mean come on... there's been races this season where Max was running in a league of his own...heck he's won 9 races so far and when he's not first he's more than likely 2nd....another thing, we all know different tracks have different characteristics that affect cars and drivers differently, some benefits and some don't so I don't see this as a shock and most certainly not suspicious. Lastly, it's a brand new engine, the expectation is that the new engine will always give the driver a boost because it's "new", a concept quite similar to regular cars on the road from when they are new to when they are 15 years old and done over 300,000 miles. You are not going to get the same level of performance.
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An idiot like myself likes to clutch a straws but the fact that Lewis got disqualified from qualifying, moved up 15 spots in the sprint, got demoted to 10th for the race and still won the damn thing raises a few questions. Verstappen hasn't had that kind of pace at any point in the season so Mercedes has obviously bumped up the horsepower. The amount of time Hamilton gained across the sprint and the GP was ridiculous considering how close the cars have been this year.
 
Lewis has 101 wins, 7 titles and out of that 101 you can probably cherry pick 25 wins for a "TOP 25 Lewis Best wins" and people will still diminish his talent & skill. Almost every single single seasons there's 1 win where everyone is like "That was the best Drive i've ever seen" yet still its not enough for A LOT of people. There's a saying in the black community that black people have to work twice as hard to get the same recognition and I know a lot of people will brush it off as bullcrap or identity politics but with the same rhetoric happening every year when it comes to Lewis at what point will it stop being "the engine" or "the best car" or "#blessed" or "FIA Golden Boy"? If dropping to last then back up to 5th then back down to 10th then back up to 1st isn't a clear indicator of something special then honestly I don't know what more this man can do. Maybe he doesn't need to do more because he already proved it to himself and his team my god the mental gymnastic narrative that get's spun around the F1 Fanbase is truly Olympic.
 
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Just another thought, but has anyone noticed how far out Max went on turn 1? I know Bottas wasn't in a great spot there to begin with, and I'm still looking for a good shot of it, but it looks like Max ran all the way to the outside of the track. Despite having Bottas on his outside. Just seems like the first half of lap 1 in the GPs seem to really be 'free for all' with no penalties as there have been lots of these type moves by lots of drivers this season.

Still no picture, but there was definitely not a lot of room left. That's also how Lando cut his tire, Sainz tried to block him towards the wall, which is off track essentially. Just no room being left
 

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