Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Exorcet]

GT5 suspension work is fine for me

Yes, GT has body roll, but in the videos it seems as though Forza was a lot closer to the real cars (though some cars have various adjustable suspension settings).

I am quite behind on GT updates though, so I won't make any comparison.

The braking distance needed to slow down was much much shorter than my experience and expectations told me,

Did you actually measure it? I think the proving ground track, if you have it, has distance markers you can use to measure distance.

You can also just time yourself and get the deceleration g from telemetry and then compare them to the real life car.

GT5 has more realistic grip levels.

GT5 is still using a generic grip multiplier though isn't it? So I don't see how this can be right. Maybe for a handful of car it happens to correct, but everything has the same grip and that's not realistic.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I think GT5's suspension is more alive now after the 2.10 update, how the car tilts down more when you turn it. I actually think PD improved the physics again. 👍

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Personally, I'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing they keep tinkering with the physics every update, even two years later. While it's great they don't just declare "enough" and work on improving things, it makes any comparisons between earlier versions and now useless, which can make things difficult for players. A never-ending thread for 'Ring times, for example, would produce a few problems. It also says something about the confidence in their physics engine, IMO.

I've always thought both games have slightly unrealistic braking distances (as in, too short), but some testing at Sonoma recently really showed me the difference brake and tire upgrades can make in FM4. I've got two Lotus 11's, one with every lightening mod possible to dip under 1000lbs, and the other more reasonably modified, with max brake upgrades and stock-width tires versus wider, heavier tires and only a light brake upgrade. That heavier car, with the apparently crappier brakes, can start braking a solid 50 feet earlier for the final turn than the flyweight model. Same tire compound, with slightly more than an inch of width at all four corners each, but it shows an interesting complexity within the physics engine, as far as I'm concerned.

I haven't had a chance to sit down with GT5 on 2.10 yet, only took delivery of the C7, so I'll take both for a spin back to back and see if it's improved any.

 

[shved111]

GT5 suspension work is fine for me, could be better with wider ranges of movement and more accuracy in relation to the car's speed, suspension load, grip level of tire, G forces, ride height, spring rates, dampers and anti roll bar settings.

I think PD can still visually enhance the car's suspension movement, maybe by tweaking the physics or increase the range of values ?

Roll gt5 suspension came only after the patch in autumn 2012. I do not know how it changed the behavior of cars, but the previous 2 years gt5 physics losing o fm4 , losing to quite strongly




With regard to braking distance, when I first started playing fm4 I was shock and anger, I did not understand why the braking distance in fm4 and a half times longer than gt5. It turned out that gt5 taught me to use the abs, but in fm4, if you use the abs, your stopping distance will be a third longer than the ABS disabled.

And I think the braking distance in fm4 longer than gt5 because of the greater force of inertia and weight of the car. Sudden slowdown in fm4 can only be in the form of penalty for cutting the track. if you decide to cut the track you'll come to a "gravitational trap" that instantly stops from any speed

Besides, when I talk about realism, physics and driving I mean by default, which exhibited the maximum complexity and all the helpers are disabled.The fall of 2012 after the patch lists in gt5 are perhaps even stronger than in fm4, video made ​​before the patch.Unfortunately I can not verify how changes affect the behavior of the car in gt5, so I sold the PS3 this summer.Recall gt4, banks were huge, but the behavior was far from realistic. Although it looks like after the suspension gt5 patch commands respect

 

[Scaff]

I had a full on session of FM4 yesterday (near 12 hours straight), the first time I've spent a good bit of time with it, it was with a gamepad though. I have played it before, but it was near the time it got launched, and I didn't have near as much time with it.

As far as GT5 vs FM4 goes... Well it's hard to really compare without a wheel, and it's hard to really compare them side by side as both have strengths in different areas. After that time though it became apparent that the reason I always thought GT5 had better physics and why many people think that is due to grip levels.

My first experience of this was my mate was driving a car on the final straight of the nurburgring to start a lap, he got to the end and I was thinking "oh ****.. brake brake" and then he broke really late and the car just came to a hault as if it had slicks and carbon ceramic brakes or something (it was a stock road car, the first you get).... I was thinking if that was real life I would be changing my pants right now, though in reality if it was real life we would probably have been in hospital.

The braking distance needed to slow down was much much shorter than my experience and expectations told me, FM4 has too much grip. Without going into a really long post trying to explain the details of where I think one is better (unfair to do without a wheel anyway) I'l just leave it that both do some things better than others but GT5 has more realistic grip levels.

In terms of replays... well I always thought of GT5 having the most fluid and lifelike looking replays of any racing game, not just on the console. With that said FM4 does a great job too, I think comparing them on replays is not worth the hassle, both have aspects that could allow an arguement to go on forever.

I would have to disagree with just about every part of this in regard to grip levels.

Now while neither are perfect in this regard, the tyre model in FM4 (and the relating grip levels) are streets ahead in FM4.

I've not come across anything that would lead me to believe that the stock tyres in FM4 have too much grip (and given the level of brake testing I've done over the years I'm sure I would have noticed). Is it at all possible the brake assist had been left on?

On the subject of 2.10 - not tried it yet - but as soon as I have I will post back as the changes in 2.09 were a step in the right direction.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Roll gt5 suspension came only after the patch in autumn 2012. I do not know how it changed the behavior of cars, but the previous 2 years gt5 physics losing o fm4 , losing to quite strongly

Those pics I posted are mostly from 2.08 and one from 2.07 ( Ferrari ) and one from 2.09 (Green Camaro ).

 

[shved111]

I think GT5's suspension is more alive now after the 2.10 update, how the car tilts down more when you turn it. I actually think PD improved the physics again. 👍

Before. Patch 2.08


After patch 2.08



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXMw_juzXY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODCXbmmSRrg

 

[Spagetti69]

Has 2.10 updated the physics though? It seems as though every update a poster comes along who's noticed a subtle difference?
Placebo effect maybe?

Some people around here have put together a lot of time and effort into cataloging GT5's cars and Tunes. It must be frustrating for them to deal with inevitable tweaks from PD.

As for realistic grip levels. GT5 tires offers Super sticky to Super slippy and everything in between.
So at least some realistic levels can be found.

As for Forza's grip levels, its a bit of a long running joke as to wether someone posts too grippy or too slippy. So I would assume that the levels are pretty good. Seems fine to me.

 

[shved111]

Has 2.10 updated the physics though? It seems as though every update a poster comes along who's noticed a subtle difference?
Placebo effect maybe?

Some people around here have put together a lot of time and effort into cataloging GT5's cars and Tunes. It must be frustrating for them to deal with inevitable tweaks from PD.

As for realistic grip levels. GT5 tires offers Super sticky to Super slippy and everything in between.
So at least some realistic levels can be found.

As for Forza's grip levels, its a bit of a long running joke as to wether someone posts too grippy or too slippy. So I would assume that the levels are pretty good. Seems fine to me.

In 2005 (the same year as gt4) came Enthusia professional racing and I think FM4 is a continuation of the idea of physics and Enthusia.Gran turismo why that goes its own way of development of physics, although IMHO physics Enthusia, LFS, Iracing, Forza 4 is all very similar

 

[Bigbazz]

I would have to disagree with just about every part of this in regard to grip levels.

Now while neither are perfect in this regard, the tyre model in FM4 (and the relating grip levels) are streets ahead in FM4.

I've not come across anything that would lead me to believe that the stock tyres in FM4 have too much grip (and given the level of brake testing I've done over the years I'm sure I would have noticed). Is it at all possible the brake assist had been left on?

On the subject of 2.10 - not tried it yet - but as soon as I have I will post back as the changes in 2.09 were a step in the right direction.

Nope we turned off all the assists, including the ABS. By all means you can have your opinion here, but I can't see how what we experienced is even possible in the real world, and because I don't want to get into a silly FM4 vs GT5 arguement I'm just going to disagree with you.

It was a great game and we had a lot of fun playing it, but like I said I think I understand that the reason GT5 is widely regarded as the superior comes down to grip levels. We both came to the conclusion when playing that the game was awesome, we much prefered the tuning system in FM4 and many of those aspects, but neither of us felt it was believeable in a realistic way.

You can argue all day about it and get nowhere, which is why the GT5 vs FM4 arguements are pointless, I think both games do certain things well, but I feel that the ability to get a realistic driving experience through tyres that provide realistic grip levels is much more "realistically achievable" in GT5.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Has 2.10 updated the physics though? It seems as though every update a poster comes along who's noticed a subtle difference?
Placebo effect maybe?

Some people around here have put together a lot of time and effort into cataloging GT5's cars and Tunes. It must be frustrating for them to deal with inevitable tweaks from PD.

As for realistic grip levels. GT5 tires offers Super sticky to Super slippy and everything in between.
So at least some realistic levels can be found.

As for Forza's grip levels, its a bit of a long running joke as to wether someone posts too grippy or too slippy. So I would assume that the levels are pretty good. Seems fine to me.

There really has not been much of a change in physics at all since first release. Haven't tried 2.10 yet though. There have only been very small changes probably to fix any glitches, even performance differences out a bit like online and offline and also aerodynamic drag. Not much has changed really in handling department, it drives similar to first version of game largely, not as big difference as people seem to make of some of the patches. I do think most of it is placebo effect, people will think that things have changed a lot even if there is no change at all just due to different version number. The PP change is more the issue regarding tunes.

 

[Exorcet]

Nope we turned off all the assists, including the ABS. By all means you can have your opinion here, but I can't see how what we experienced is even possible in the real world, and because I don't want to get into a silly FM4 vs GT5 arguement I'm just going to disagree with you.

It was a great game and we had a lot of fun playing it, but like I said I think I understand that the reason GT5 is widely regarded as the superior comes down to grip levels. We both came to the conclusion when playing that the game was awesome, we much prefered the tuning system in FM4 and many of those aspects, but neither of us felt it was believeable in a realistic way.

You can argue all day about it and get nowhere, which is why the GT5 vs FM4 arguements are pointless, I think both games do certain things well, but I feel that the ability to get a realistic driving experience through tyres that provide realistic grip levels is much more "realistically achievable" in GT5.

To be honest we only get no where when someone doesn't debate.

The argument doesn't sound pointless at all. We know that GT5 has fixed grip. Forza calculates grip and gives you a different and fairly accurate answer for each car.

And of course, we can use the numbers from both games to compare to reality. I don't see how this will inevitably lead to nothing when there are so many ways to try to validate your (or anyone's) findings.

 

[Goshin2568]

Nope we turned off all the assists, including the ABS. By all means you can have your opinion here, but I can't see how what we experienced is even possible in the real world, and because I don't want to get into a silly FM4 vs GT5 arguement I'm just going to disagree with you.

It was a great game and we had a lot of fun playing it, but like I said I think I understand that the reason GT5 is widely regarded as the superior comes down to grip levels. We both came to the conclusion when playing that the game was awesome, we much prefered the tuning system in FM4 and many of those aspects, but neither of us felt it was believeable in a realistic way.

You can argue all day about it and get nowhere, which is why the GT5 vs FM4 arguements are pointless, I think both games do certain things well, but I feel that the ability to get a realistic driving experience through tyres that provide realistic grip levels is much more "realistically achievable" in GT5.

Just curious, how much track time IRL do you have? Because I find that people with little to no track experience often overestimate the amount of grip that cars "should" have. When there is no traction or stability control to get in the way, cars break free much easier than a lot of people expect.

 

[TwistyDrift]

I noticed the physics change because it was kind of weird drifting my Nissan 300zx but I got use to it now. The thing that keeps bothering me is that why is there still no marketplace built in GT5!!!!! and the crashes needs to be improved. It would take like 3 hits or more for the bumper to slightly fall apart, should only be once and the scratching and dents on the car should be imrpoved.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I noticed the physics change because it was kind of weird drifting my Nissan 300zx but I got use to it now. The thing that keeps bothering me is that why is there still no marketplace built in GT5!!!!! and the crashes needs to be improved. It would take like 3 hits or more for the bumper to slightly fall apart, should only be once and the scratching and dents on the car should be imrpoved.

Agreed.

Also many forget that this is the first game in the series that actually has damage.....
But with that said I also agree with what SimonK has said which was "i understand your point but if it is put in the game it needs to be done right. Or else why do it at all"
Which that is a really valid point

 

[TwistyDrift]

Agreed.

Also many forget that this is the first game in the series that actually has damage.....
But with that said I also agree with what SimonK has said which was "i understand your point but if it is put in the game it needs to be done right. Or else why do it at all"
Which that is a really valid point

Yes, this is the first game that has damage because I played GT3 and GT4 as well. I actually agree that it needs to be done right, so I'm guessing that there is going to be market place in GT6 and better damage. But from my research GT6 will come out when PS4 comes out so I would need to buy PS4 just to play GT6 and 🤬 that because GT5 is a pretty damn good game and I'm still happy with it even though it has some down falls to it.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Yes, this is the first game that has damage because I played GT3 and GT4 as well. I actually agree that it needs to be done right, so I'm guessing that there is going to be market place in GT6 and better damage. But from my research GT6 will come out when PS4 comes out so I would need to buy PS4 just to play GT6 and 🤬 that because GT5 is a pretty damn good game and I'm still happy with it even though it has some down falls to it.

I absolutely love GT5. Played and owned everyone in the series. So i think after the PS4 comes out and probably the many years after for GT6 to come out i will buy it

 

[TokoTurismo]

Before. Patch 2.08

After patch 2.08


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXMw_juzXY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODCXbmmSRrg

Well. I've tried this exact same thing the guy who posted those two videos did, although I've used a Mini Cooper S '06 so I'll make sure to use that car he used. Lets just say like the video showed, my car didn't do that "hopping thing" like that his Suzuki did, (even though that one is 2.08 and mine is 2.10.)

So again. My game is updated to 2.10, and I did the exact same thing the video did, and my car didn't do that period. I even put on the e-brake resting my car's right-rear wheel on that yellow thing the video did and it sat there completely still with the right-rear wheel rised upwards on top that yellow thing, just like the FM4 video with the Smart fortwo did too.

So like I said before. PD had updated GT5's physics again with the 2.10 update, which IMO, was pretty good of them.

Thanks for the videos by the way. I actually got to test something in GT5 for once. 👍 I feel proud.

 

[amar212]

In 2005 (the same year as gt4) came Enthusia professional racing and I think FM4 is a continuation of the idea of physics and Enthusia..

Which is really an interesting thinking knowing that Enthusia's director of physics programming - Yutaka Ito - moved over to Polyphony Digital after Konami disassembled original Enthusia team in 2006.

He joined Akihiko Tan (GT physics programmer) and his team and worked on GT5rologue on creation of next-gen GT physics engine (the same which foundations GT5 is using today). He is credited for work on AI for GT5 and he is still part of the Polyphony team.

Also I have to admit - as someone who plays both series for too long now and who played Enthusia as crazy backthen - how I do not see anything regarding "Enthusia" in FM series. Complete success of FM4's tyre-model comes from single fact how raw tyre-data was supplied to T10 by Pirelli, who then used it completely separately from their body/object physics-model.

However - and I will never get tired of highlighting that - you really can't discuss Forza's tyre-model outside of realm of Simulation setting, which is the only in-game setting that uses raw tyre-data supplied by Pirelli (introduced in the first FM4 patch). "Normal" physics mode have increased values for threshold of tyre-grip, tyre-heating, tyre-deformation and tyre-load (as can be easily seen on in-game graph monitors for load-behaviour) thus it does not represent the true "Pirelli Raw Simulation" setting. IMO, the "Normal" setting is something I would compare to GT5's SRF assist while Simulation setting is the setting where Pirelli's model shines.

I have to also say how there is also something abysmally wrong with suspension-modelling or balance-modelling in FM4 which results with many of cars becoming literally undrivable once you begin to use 900-wheel for steering. Main example for that are Koeninggseg models, but that is now an area I really do not want to drag myself into.

👍

 

[Bigbazz]

Just curious, how much track time IRL do you have? Because I find that people with little to no track experience often overestimate the amount of grip that cars "should" have. When there is no traction or stability control to get in the way, cars break free much easier than a lot of people expect.

I dont think you understood what I said, since you're coming at me with an angle that has nothing to do with my post.

I'm saying i think there is "too much" grip. That much was clear if you read the post.

 

[Scaff]

I dont think you understood what I said, since you're coming at me with an angle that has nothing to do with my post.

I'm saying i think there is "too much" grip. That much was clear if you read the post.

Do you recall what car this was with?

 

[TokoTurismo]

I've just tried thing @shved111 posted up agai. It does happen but that's because my Suzuki Swift is slowy moving forward, which would cause it to do that "hopping thing". But yeah, it still happens even when in update 2.10.

 

[shved111]

Which is really an interesting thinking knowing that Enthusia's director of physics programming - Yutaka Ito - moved over to Polyphony Digital after Konami disassembled original Enthusia team in 2006.

He joined Akihiko Tan (GT physics programmer) and his team and worked on GT5rologue on creation of next-gen GT physics engine (the same which foundations GT5 is using today). He is credited for work on AI for GT5 and he is still part of the Polyphony team.

Also I have to admit - as someone who plays both series for too long now and who played Enthusia as crazy backthen - how I do not see anything regarding "Enthusia" in FM series. Complete success of FM4's tyre-model comes from single fact how raw tyre-data was supplied to T10 by Pirelli, who then used it completely separately from their body/object physics-model.

However - and I will never get tired of highlighting that - you really can't discuss Forza's tyre-model outside of realm of Simulation setting, which is the only in-game setting that uses raw tyre-data supplied by Pirelli (introduced in the first FM4 patch). "Normal" physics mode have increased values for threshold of tyre-grip, tyre-heating, tyre-deformation and tyre-load (as can be easily seen on in-game graph monitors for load-behaviour) thus it does not represent the true "Pirelli Raw Simulation" setting. IMO, the "Normal" setting is something I would compare to GT5's SRF assist while Simulation setting is the setting where Pirelli's model shines.

I have to also say how there is also something abysmally wrong with suspension-modelling or balance-modelling in FM4 which results with many of cars becoming literally undrivable once you begin to use 900-wheel for steering. Main example for that are Koeninggseg models, but that is now an area I really do not want to drag myself into.

👍

Unfortunately my Google translator does not fully understand the meaning of your comment. But I think that: Although the author of Physics enthusia joined PD, it does not mean better quality gt5 physics.
Because in the market auto console sims more important marketing opinion and not the effort of engineers and the desire to make the best simulator.

I respect the players gt5, but when gt5 release, physics was not realistic enough, it came to the suspension, tires, and other aspects.
But this level of physics quite well for a large percentage of players. and fully satisfying.
But Enthusia was bolder and fm4 take a bold step and made an honest physics for the steering wheel, it seems to me there is not even what the dispute

PD responds to the wishes and changes the physics gt5 for the better, that's good. But in this generation fm4 physics is still better.
Perhaps in gt6 PD made ​​a bold move, and done just as good a physicist in fm4 or even better.Such sales fm4 low, possibly due to too complex for most players Physics

2) you say that Koenigsegg in fm4 too complicated, but why do you think that it's a unfinished physics? I think Koenigsegg is in real life it is very difficult to control the car.And fm4 just gives us the character and personality of each car.

For example Agera already controlled much obedient than CCXR.
Stig even scolded Kenigseg handling.
I am disappointed when a truly realistic, things have been accused of unrealistic, this substitution of concepts

 

[Zer0]

Such sales fm4 low, possibly due to too complex for most players Physics

Come on... autobrake, rewind, arcade steering option, kinect steering, etc

FM4 is the most accessible Simulator ever made. They were seeking additional sales expanding their game to arcade players and kids but it didn't work.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Come on... autobrake, rewind, arcade steering option, kinect steering, etc

FM4 is the most accessible Simulator ever made. They were seeking additional sales expanding their game to arcade players and kids but it didn't work.

To be fair, most of those casual options aren't exactly shouted about in advertising for the game .

There's nearly infinite reasons as to why FM4 hasn't sold as well as GT5 has. Could it be that it's a worse game? That's one possible answer, absolutely; though even most of the staunch GT5 supporters around these parts call FM4 the better "game". Perhaps the general 360 owning populace has different gaming preferences than PS3 players. Perhaps the physics don't sit well with said part of the population? It's a discussion best left to the main FM vs GT thread, really. So there's the link 👍

I'm already swamped with work this semester, but I'm going to try to swing into GT5 and FM4 for a bit of comparison testing tonight, if I can drag myself away from either the C7 or my project cars in each respective game.

 

[Scaff]

Come on... autobrake, rewind, arcade steering option, kinect steering, etc

FM4 is the most accessible Simulator ever made. They were seeking additional sales expanding their game to arcade players and kids but it didn't work.

My reply is in the other thread.

 

[shved111]

An interesting fact is that in spite of the fact that turn10, tries to make the setting of physics as flexible and accessible to different people, and casual and hardcore sim racer.

Perhaps casual players want to be cool, turn off, driving assistants, play on the joystick and get angry and frustrated because of the difficulty.

And curse physics fm4.I do not know why Forza does not sell .. For example in the Horizon intentionally made ​​simpler, arcade physics, although the developers could make the setting of both the fm4.

Although I think there is this explanation. If we make the sim physics, the game mechanics Horizon collapse.
You can not catch up to the plane, in a car with a serious physics) and do not need the sim physics in Horizon

Today I read the news, rumors xbox720. Supposedly there will be "improved cryptographic engine for encryption, decryption and hashing"Does this mean that the Xbox720 and forza5 will be compatible with the G27?I hope, as many do not play Forza for this reason

 

[Zer0]

To be fair, most of those casual options aren't exactly shouted about in advertising for the game .

Were highlights during the game promotion and press reviews. In FM3 was rewind and the ultra easy aids, in FM4 kinect was the star of the show. Also the Speed Wheel was promoted with FM4 in mind.

 

[cuco33]

Were highlights during the game promotion and press reviews. In FM3 was rewind and the ultra easy aids, in FM4 kinect was the star of the show. Also the Speed Wheel was promoted with FM4 in mind.

This isn't physics related but it was obvious that MS and Turn10 were pushing to grab the casual crowd. You neglected to realize though that MS heavily pushed Kinect at that E3. You also neglected FM4's new Autovista mode which had Kinect functionality or how there is head tracking using Kinect as even mentioned in the videos you posted (a core sim feature and one i am not a fan of).
You also forgot that Fanatec was demoing their new CSR and CSR Elite models on the show room floor. But lets not forget that last year's E3 Sony unveiled a GT5 compatible wireless MOVE based wheel on par with what MS released 2 years prior with what I like to call the U-shaped dildo.

Both Sony and MS, and both PD and Sony cater to the casual and the core. Had both games been purely core sim, they wouldnt be as popular as they are now. The same $60 for a Forza game is worth the same $60 that a GT game is worth. They make more money on special editions and licensed hardware.

 

[Zer0]

it was obvious that MS and Turn10 were pushing to grab the casual crowd.

We agree. About the rest I was talking about the casual part of the game not the hardcore. I have not forget about it just that was not related to "easy physics = more sales" suggested in my first quote.

Both Sony and MS, and both PD and Sony cater to the casual and the core. Had both games been purely core sim, they wouldnt be as popular as they are now. The same $60 for a Forza game is worth the same $60 that a GT game is worth. They make more money on special editions and licensed hardware.

We agree but it's obvious that they aim to different levels of casuals.