Forza 6 News Incoming?

[GranTurismo guy]

dependable as day one patches

I don't find them very dependable typically

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

My expectations are not very high either. Just mainly hoping for night and weather. Along with a lot more cars. Might get lucky and have up to 500 cars. Need more tracks too.

 

[Igano]

My expectations are higher than on FM5. The reason for this is it will be the 3rd title (counting FH2) for the Xbox One. Rumored DX12 and unlocked extra core. Add in the new antagonists (Project Cars, Drive Club, GT7?). I think Turn 10 are working very very hard to pay us back, for all the shortcomings of FM5.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

My expectations are higher than on FM5. The reason for this is it will be the 3rd title (counting FH2) for the Xbox One. Rumored DX12 and unlocked extra core. Add in the new antagonists (Project Cars, Drive Club, GT7?). I think Turn 10 are working very very hard to pay us back, for all the shortcomings of FM5.

I sure hope so. Luckily I received F5 for free because there was simply no way I was going to buy it. Night and weather are an absolute MUST for the Forza series at this point. The main bottleneck is the fact that there are dead set in getting 60fps. While I enjoy 60fps as much as the next person, its clearly a struggle to get 4,000+ vinyls along with weather and night and still maintain 60fps. Even project cars struggles to stay at 60fps on the PS4 or X1 with night and weather racing. It is stunning in FH2. So they have a truly great start and proof it can work with Forza.

So if F6 can truly pull off 60fps with 4,000+ vinyls, night, AND weather racing it will be a miracle. A miracle that I would support for sure. If they can pull that off it will be a day 1 purchase. Just getting night and weather racing would make me very happy. I am honestly not as concerned with 60fps.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I sure hope so. Luckily I received F5 for free because there was simply no way I was going to buy it. Night and weather are an absolute MUST for the Forza series at this point.

People have been saying that since they took night racing out, maybe Project Cars will affect T10's view but I doubt it somehow.

its clearly a struggle to get 4,000+ vinyls along with weather and night and still maintain 60fps.

I'm pretty sure that I read an article with Phred years ago where he explained that a skin is calculated when the vinyls are saved - all cars either show a skin or no skin. The individual vinyls aren't computed/remembered at race-render time.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I'm pretty sure that I read an article with Phred years ago where he explained that a skin is calculated when the vinyls are saved - all cars either show a skin or no skin. The individual vinyls aren't computed/remembered at race-render time.

Sounds about right and in that case it would prove my point correct. More vinyls you put on, larger the saved file (4,000+ vinyls), the less likely they will load. Especially if you add weather and night features. I will be beyond impressed if T10 somehow gets all of it to work together in F6 on the X1. I am okay with them sacrificing a few FPS to meet this goal.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If that's the case it would prove my point. More vinyls you put on, larger the saved file, the less likely they will load. Especially if you add weather and night features. I will be beyond impressed if T10 somehow gets all of it to work together on the X1.

No, the higher the resolution of the skin you display the greater the power required. A skin computed for a car on Forza "1" shows at a much lower resolution than one computed for a car on Forza 5+. However, you still have to show texturing for the car whether or not the skins are loaded... and as far as I know the only circumstances where custom skins aren't loaded is in MP sessions where the connection time (or other network issues) stop it from happening*.

A skin showing one vinyl would take the same amount of space as one showing 4,000 vinyls, the transparency data remains and the bits beneath still show the default texture.

Anyway, if you're asking if it can be done graphically I'd say that Project Cars shows that indeed it can.

*EDIT: Using the Parental Setting "Don't Show User Content" will also block this, I think

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

No, the higher the resolution of the skin you display the greater the power required. A skin computed for a car on Forza "1" shows at a much lower resolution than one computed for a car on Forza 5+. However, you still have to show texturing for the car whether or not the skins are loaded... and as far as I know the only circumstances where custom skins aren't loaded is in MP sessions where the connection time (or other network issues) stop it from happening*.

A skin showing one vinyl would take the same amount of space as one showing 4,000 vinyls, the transparency data remains and the bits beneath still show the default texture.

Anyway, if you're asking if it can be done graphically I'd say that Project Cars shows that indeed it can.

*EDIT: Using the Parental Setting "Don't Show User Content" will also block this, I think

There is absolutely no way 1 vinyl is the same size as 4,000+ vinyls. Actually I think its closer to 5,000 vinyls in F5.

Also Project cars does not have 4,000 "customizable" vinyls. Clearly it cant be done...yet. We wont know until F6 is released.

 

[TenEightyOne]

There is absolutely no way 1 vinyl is the same size as 4,000 vinyls.

Also Project cars does not have 4,000 customizable vinyls. Clearly it cant be done...yet.

You're missing the point. A skin rendered from the vinyls with 1 vinyl will be the same size, pixel-for-pixel, as one rendered from 4,000 vinyls. The vinyls exist in the paintshop, you don't see individually-rendered vinyls the rest of the time, only the skin that was computed from them when you saved the paint to the car.

For that reason I'd speculate that there's no reason why a PCars skin might not be in the same size order as one for Forza 5.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

You're missing the point. A skin rendered from the vinyls with 1 vinyl will be the same size, pixel-for-pixel, as one rendered from 4,000 vinyls. The vinyls exist in the paintshop, you don't see individually-rendered vinyls the rest of the time, only the skin that was computed from them when you saved the paint to the car.

For that reason I'd speculate that there's no reason why a PCars skin might not be in the same size order as one for Forza 5.

Actually I would say YOU are missing the point if you actually think a save file with 1 vinyl will be the same size as a car with 4,000-5,000 vinyls. There is NO way 1 saved vinyl is the same size as 4,000-5,000. If that was the case Forza would just allow you to put 1 million vinyls per car.

Also if that was the case, every car game would have unlimited "customizable" vinyls.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Actually I would say YOU are missing the point if you actually think a save file with 1 vinyl will be the same size as a car with 4,000-5,000 vinyls. There is NO way 1 saved vinyl is the same size as 4,000-5,000. If that was the case Forza would just allow you to put 1 million vinyls per car.

Also if that was the case, every car game would have unlimited "customizable" vinyls.

I didn't say the save file was the same size, you misread. I said that a rendered skin would be the same size. When you leave the paint shop that's what you have, a render of the complete skin.

 

[Igano]

You are correct TenEightyOne. All these layers are for the editing part only. When you race only one finalized layer is loaded in order to save resources.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Nevermind.

 

[HAL20XX]

I'd be willing to bet that the 5,000 vinyl limit is due to the editor itself being able to handle only so much data at once, not the flattened vinyl when racing.

 

[RacerPaul]

I am honestly not as concerned with 60fps

I agree. I'd sacrifice some fps to get weather and time changes into Forza 6

As long as it's a steady fps, don't want any ups and downs

 

[Brend]

If Forza 6 isn't 60FPS I will be very disappointed. There's no need to cut out time-changes or weather, just cut down on un-necessary stuff that isn't that big a deal when driving from a visual standpoint.

 

[Marqus]

Personally, I'd take a hit in resolution rather than sacrifice framerate. Sure people would be upset that it would be less than 1080p, but since that's kinda the norm on X1 and if time/weather were to be added in, T10 would be forgiven. I hope this is the kind of compromise they would make in FM6.

 

[HAL20XX]

I'm holding out hope that T10, being a 1st-party developer, will have the knowledge, money, and technological expertise to make all of these happen with only a modicum of trade-offs.

 

[Wolfe]

I didn't say the save file was the same size, you misread. I said that a rendered skin would be the same size. When you leave the paint shop that's what you have, a render of the complete skin.

Another way to explain it: in the vinyl editor, you're working with vector shapes that are converted to a single raster layer. If you're zoomed in close to the car, you can see it happen (on Xbox 360, I don't know about the XBone games). Whenever you move a shape around, the vinyls are in vector form, but if you stop moving, it "refreshes" to a pixellated raster after a moment.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I'd be willing to bet that the 5,000 vinyl limit is due to the editor itself being able to handle only so much data at once, not the flattened vinyl when racing.

That's always been my guess too. Working with half-gig .PSD files in Photoshop, only to flatten them into a 4mb image, really slows down my laptop, so I suspect that's the same basic limitation. From an in-race, system resources perspective, there is no difference between custom liveries and any pre-existing ones.

I'm holding out hope that T10, being a 1st-party developer, will have the knowledge, money, and technological expertise to make all of these happen with only a modicum of trade-offs.

I've been playing FM2 this week. Jumping between it and FM4/FH1 is staggering, they almost don't seem to be from the same generation. I'm not saying we'll see that level of change during the One's lifecycle, but surely the people worried T10 have already hit a ceiling with a launch title are being a little dramatic.

I too expect at least time cycles in FM6, though ideally weather would be included as well. It's my only real expectation, besides including every single car they've put on the One so far. With disc space no longer being an issue like last generation, I see no reason for T10 to not include, say, both the C7 Stingray and Z06.

 

[Speedster911]

Since FM2, there has never been a FM game running at 30 fps, and I doubt that's going to ever change. FM will not be FM if it runs at anything less than that.

Being said, I highly doubt there's going to be full-blown night driving or dynamic weather changes. Yes, we might see dawn or dusk settings, or pre/post rain conditions with a wet track and maybe just maybe, the option of choosing different tire compounds - wet, dry, soft, hard. THAT I'd love to see in a Forza game.

As SlipZtrem puts it, going from FM to Horizon is almost day and night, primarily due to the frame rate, not just physics.

They already need to work on the particle effects, while improving overall visuals and particularly audio. Which I might add they have improved consistently over every release.

I don't think T10 is really worried about night or weather in FM, since you already get that in FH. That's how they probably see it.

FM is after all, a track driving game, where accurate physics and 60 fps locked, are far more important than time of day or driving conditions.

And I hope that stupid micro-stutter or sound static bug doesn't end up in FM6!

 

[yabiggoose]

FM is after all, a track driving game, where accurate physics and 60 fps locked, are far more important than time of day or driving conditions.

Lol, races that go for more than an hour or two and don't take place in summer.

 

[Brend]

Weather and time of day are as big a factor in the outcome of a race as any. Ignoring their influence is just silly and to be honest it's one of the areas I've waited for FM to embrace for a long time. There just comes a point where racing in perfect conditions time-after-time becomes monotonous. FM6 has the possibly to be amazing, hence why I have pre-ordered, I really want to see it blow everyone away. I have no interest whatsoever in Forza Horizon, thus, I don't care for the idea that horizon can be my 'forza weather' fix.

 

[Speedster911]

Weather and time of day are as big a factor in the outcome of a race as any. Ignoring their influence is just silly and to be honest it's one of the areas I've waited for FM to embrace for a long time. There just comes a point where racing in perfect conditions time-after-time becomes monotonous. FM6 has the possibly to be amazing, hence why I have pre-ordered, I really want to see it blow everyone away. I have no interest whatsoever in Forza Horizon, thus, I don't care for the idea that horizon can be my 'forza weather' fix.

I hope they throw everything in, rain, snow mud...rallying... rallying at night.. Rush-style F1 races at The Ring while it's about to rain... endless possibilities.

However, it's good to be realistic: the X1 seemed to be struggling a little keeping the fps consistent at 60 or 30 in replays - you'd see slowdowns when all cars are kicking up smoke.. the smoke isn't even that dense to begin with. And then there are those micro-stutters you get on occasions.

It would amaze the living daylights outta me and I will quite humbly eat my hat if they manage to crank out night driving and weather effects at 60 fps. As it is, most fans are not ready to live with a 30 fps FM game.

And let's be honest: ALL games should be 60 fps or higher to relay that "real life" feeling. Not everybody has or can afford a high-end TV that doubles frame rates.

 

[VXR]

It's a game made before the Kinect was made optional and the 7th core came on stream. Being first party, I expect T10 have all the tools to deliver, whereas Project Cars is a victim of a notoriously sketchy developer and being made for three platforms.

I expect this to be the one where they can finally do it all at 1080p60.

 

[ImaRobot]

However, it's good to be realistic: the X1 seemed to be struggling a little keeping the fps consistent at 60 or 30 in replays - you'd see slowdowns when all cars are kicking up smoke.. the smoke isn't even that dense to begin with. And then there are those micro-stutters you get on occasions.

Replays are downed to play at 30fps, and you can really tell right off the bat, especially in cockpit view. I dont think thats a struggle, I think thats a design choice. I cant recall if it stutters from a launch, I'll have to check that out when I get time.

And let's be honest: ALL games should be 60 fps or higher to relay that "real life" feeling. Not everybody has or can afford a high-end TV that doubles frame rates.

I dont agree. Not every game is based off real life, some are pretty far fetched. Even with that aside, I have no problems with games being 30 FPS. Horizon pulled it off wonderfully, and the only way you notice the frames is when you go back to FM after a good while. Still, even after switching back and forth it's still not a hindrance in any way. My 60hz TV works just fine, actually so I wouldn't go and push the problem with that.

 

[Marqus]

If I had to choose between 30 and 60 fps, I'd always go for 60 because it's, by definition, always better that 30 fps. I don't believe that "cinematic" bollocks. It's weird that we're struggling to get 60 fps this and last generation when we had it all in the previous ones. 1 step forward and 2 steps back it seems.

 

[Zer0]

As was discussed in the past when the favourite argument was: "FM6 will have weather and dynamic time because FH2 it have.", there are many problems involved to be executed inside the T10's "safe zone" without notable issues.

Some points to consider:

• FM5 was the result of 4 years of development and runs in a brand new graphical Xbone engine. Under a development point of view it was not a FM4 in HD like it was considered FM2 at the time (from FM1), FM5 it's a next-gen game showing many effects and graphics not possible in the past generation, not just a resolution upgrade.

• FM6 will have half of the development time of FM5.

• FM6 would need a brand new graphical engine many times more powerful and advanced to represent dynamic time and weather to the level of other games (dynamic environmental light and shadows, cars casting light sources, rain volumetric particles (trails, clouds, etc), rain track effects (reflections, puddles, etc), rain shaders over all the environment and world materials, cockpit rain effects, etc. All them very hungry in resources.

• FM5 had none of the above and was running in a static safe environment, very easy on resources, following the same path since FM1.

• Realistic dynamic time and weather would require a brand new tyre model, rally: mud or snow would also require a new complex model out of their safe zone (dry tyres since FM1). All both would require extensive study and time to get it right, specially on the first try and with the development standards that T10 like to advertise.

• Dynamic time in FM6 will introduce new real-time graphical glitches that were controlled under a safe environment in the past Forzas (all backed, like a painting).

• Xbone is more limited in hardware than PS4 or pc.

• FM5 was running at 1080/60 in a convenient environment (and even struggling with simple particles effects). FM6 with dynamic time and weather will be running in a very stressfull changing environment in comparisson.

• The old FM5 tracks would need a serious rework to adapt them to real-time effects and their shadows, to name a thing, will never look as good in the same time conditions as previously they were in FM5 in a backed form.

• Project Cars is showing more than 16 cars on track, that probably will be the path also for other games in this console generation. Less resources available if FM6 jump at it.

• FM6 can have weather and time if T10 want but would be extremely difficult to implement in only two years and without sacrifices (lower framerates, lower resolution, cheap real-time effects, less cars on track, overall graphical downgrade, only suitable on tracks with lower graphical charge, etc).

• T10 advertised 1080/60 in FM5 as one of the main selling points so probably they are obligued to stick to the same standards in FM6, sacrificing other features.

As I said in the past they have a lot of issues and decissions to deal with it and is not something that an hypothetical extra core or DX12 could resolve.

 

[ImaRobot]

As was discussed in the past when the favourite argument was: "FM6 will have weather and dynamic time because FH2 it have.", there are many problems involved to be executed inside the T10's "safe zone" without notable issues.

Some points to consider:
FM5 was the result of 4 years of development and runs in a brand new graphical Xbone engine. Under a development point of view it was not a FM4 in HD like it was considered FM2 at the time (from FM1), FM5 it's a next-gen game showing many effects and graphics not possible in the past generation, not just a resolution upgrade.

Well that's was a given, I'm not sure I heard anyone think the opposite.

FM6 will have half of the development time of FM5.

I'm not sure why it would need the same development time that FM5 needed, all the ground work is already there now, they aren't starting from scratch again, they are continuing.

FM6 would need a brand new graphical engine many times more powerful and advanced to represent dynamic time and weather to the level of other games (dynamic environmental light and shadows, cars casting light sources, rain volumetric particles (trails, clouds, etc), rain track effects (reflections, puddles, etc), rain shaders over all the environment and world materials, cockpit rain effects, etc. All them very hungry in resources.

Or they can borrow from Forza Horizon and work on that.

FM5 had none of the above and was running in a static safe environment, very easy on resources, following the same path since FM1.

I agree, and now its time to move forward and show what they can do. Which I'm hopeful they will.

Realistic dynamic time and weather would require a brand new tyre model, rally: mud or snow would also require a new complex model out of their safe zone (dry tyres since FM1). All both would require extensive study and time to get it right, specially on the first try and with the development standards that T10 like to advertise.

Again, with Horizon's introduction, they have already taken a step in that direction so again, its not like they are starting from scratch, the footwork is already there. It wouldn't be to far off to assume that this can be brought over and perfected.

Dynamic time in FM6 will introduce new real-time graphical glitches that were controlled under a safe environment in the past Forzas (all backed, like a painting).

What glitches if you dont mind me asking? Horizon didnt seem to bad.

Xbone is more limited in hardware than PS4 or pc.

Not by much, but to say that its not going to work because X is more powerful is ridiculous. One car being more powerful then another car doesn't make the other obsolete.

FM5 was running at 1080/60 in a convenient environment (and even struggling with simple particles effects). FM6 with dynamic time and weather will be running in a very stressfull changing environment in comparisson.

I have a feeling these are just repeating with different sentence structures.

old FM5 tracks would need a serious rework to adapt them to real-time effects and their shadows, to name a thing, will never look as good in the same time conditions as previously they were in FM5 in a backed form.

It's funny, you say it as if it cant be done. We'll just have to wait and see on that.

Project Cars is showing more than 16 cars on track, that probably will be the path also for other games in this console generation. Less resources available if FM6 jump at it.

I have yet to try Pcars but I should hopefully be picking it up next Friday. Still, its only a loss of resources if they plan to take that route. 40 cars on track is amazing, but I was never hindered by 16. If they can get 16 that actually put up a good race and make things interesting, I'm all for that.

FM6 can have weather and time if T10 want but would be extremely difficult to implement in only two years and without sacrifices (lower framerates, lower resolution, cheap real-time effects, less cars on track, overall graphical downgrade, only suitable on tracks with lower graphical charge, etc).

OR there could be a possibility that the Xbox One's potential hasn't been tapped yet, just like every console early on in its life, and that these things can be a possibility with minor sacrifices. We'll have to wait and see before we can say no they can't

T10 advertised 1080/60 in FM5 as one of the main selling points so probably they are obligued to stick to the same standards in FM6, sacrificing other features.

I would certainly hope they stick with 60fps.

 

[Marqus]

T10 advertised 1080/60 in FM5 as one of the main selling points so probably they are obligued to stick to the same standards in FM6, sacrificing other features.

As I said earlier, if they had to drop down from 1080p it would be a mighty shame. BUT if they add in more cars on track and dynamic time/weather, something fans wanted for years, the fans would go nuts. The lower res would be completely overshadowed by this.