Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[ZROC]

I think the visuals is what turns most people off of Forza compared to GT. Which is really sad. Now if they have played it and find that actually playing the game turns them off then cool. But I found most just look at pics and say rubbish.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

I think the visuals is what turns most people off of Forza compared to GT. Which is really sad. Now if they have played it and find that actually playing the game turns them off then cool. But I found most just look at pics and say rubbish.

Certainly possible especially these days amongst younger gamers.

Personally for me what stood out the most between FM2 and GT5P is the physics engine. I played FM2 from release but when I played GT5P I realised I had been playing an arcade game for many months. I found GT5P physics in a different class to FM2 and im sure that will be the case with GT5.

I enjoyed the online aspect of FM2 which is something I hope GT5 gets right. However when you take into account the pros and cons of FM & GT then GT is in a different class IMO.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

my rant on this ridiculous thread...Which is in the wrong forum topic to begin with. Anyway here it goes.




i have played Forza2 on the 360 wheel...Which was complete trash(wheel not game)... But i noticed in forza...all cars had this same generic feel...

I pulled out a Mitsubishi evo and went around suzuka, and it handled pretty well... But the characteristics of the car, were just not there... And i have also driven a EVO in real life...not that fast, but i have a little input of how the real car handles.

To the best of my knowledge...the forza2 car handled.. Like a card board box with pretty good physics, they were nice and all....But you don't really feel connected with the road... I mean it feel's like your gliding with occasional turbulence(bumps.)

But on GT the EVO IV, Drives like it has a soul,(not saying its the best handling car) But, it drives like it actually has an engine attached to it, and drives like it's rolling on a road, It does not feel like a generic mess...
Physics calculation my butt, Why care about the physics calculations when the car feels like its hovering through the turns. It's that same generic feel that was in forza 1. turn in a curve...you hear the squealing but you don't feel the car actually turn...more like it just glides like a feather in the wind....No matter how hard you turn,(but if you turn to hard, you GO into the perfect drift which you can hold for eons.) Anyway, that same feeling is in forza 2... i passionately hate, how the ferrari f430 feels like a Honda civic si with a turbo added to boost the power but has done nothing to improve the handling.... There is no characteristics of the cars at all. the C6 Z06...does not feel like you are going to spin if you hit the gas to hard, The ford GT feels like its awd....It just all feel's generic.

Also if its so much better then GT5(which is not even out yet)

Go brag about it to forzacentral or forzamotorsports.net. or put it in the xbox 360/forza sub form... Why bring it here, That was nonsense to begin with.

And if you mean pro racer as in Sliding a out of control box across a frozen lake then yes it is better.

And this all my personal opinion, which i am entitled to, So back off.

end rant.

 

[myke6699]

my rant on this ridiculous thread...Which is in the wrong forum topic to begin with. Anyway here it goes.




i have played Forza2 on the 360 wheel...Which was complete trash(wheel not game)... But i noticed in forza...all cars had this same generic feel...

I pulled out a Mitsubishi evo and went around suzuka, and it handled pretty well... But the characteristics of the car, were just not there... And i have also driven a EVO in real life...not that fast, but i have a little input of how the real car handles.

To the best of my knowledge...the forza2 car handled.. Like a card board box with pretty good physics, they were nice and all....But you don't really feel connected with the road... I mean it feel's like your gliding with occasional turbulence(bumps.)

But on GT the EVO IV, Drives like it has a soul,(not saying its the best handling car) But, it drives like it actually has an engine attached to it, and drives like it's rolling on a road, It does not feel like a generic mess...
Physics calculation my butt, Why care about the physics calculations when the car feels like its hovering through the turns. It's that same generic feel that was in forza 1. turn in a curve...you hear the squealing but you don't feel the car actually turn...more like it just glides like a feather in the wind....No matter how hard you turn,(but if you turn to hard, you GO into the perfect drift which you can hold for eons.) Anyway, that same feeling is in forza 2... i passionately hate, how the ferrari f430 feels like a Honda civic si with a turbo added to boost the power but has done nothing to improve the handling.... There is no characteristics of the cars at all. the C6 Z06...does not feel like you are going to spin if you hit the gas to hard, The ford GT feels like its awd....It just all feel's generic.

Also if its so much better then GT5(which is not even out yet)

Go brag about it to forzacentral or forzamotorsports.net. or put it in the xbox 360/forza sub form... Why bring it here, That was nonsense to begin with.

And if you mean pro racer as in Sliding a out of control box across a frozen lake then yes it is better.

And this all my personal opinion, which i am entitled to, So back off.

end rant.

But that could be from the effect of using MS wheel with FM2. But with Fanatec wheel compatible for both the 360 and the PS3, it would be interesting to hear opinion of someone using the same wheel for both GT5 and FM3 (when both are out). What I've heard from those lucky enough to have used the Fanatec wheel with FM2, it's a much better experience.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

But that could be from the effect of using MS wheel with FM2. But with Fanatec wheel compatible for both the 360 and the PS3, it would be interesting to hear opinion of someone using the same wheel for both GT5 and FM3 (when both are out). What I've heard from those lucky enough to have used the Fanatec wheel with FM2, it's a much better experience.

well good, Cause the MS wheel....

...is just horrible.

 

[warpspeed2slow]

well good, Cause the MS wheel....

...is just horrible.

I will respond to your rant that while I may like GTP5, it has problems with atleast 2 important things that Forza has close to nailed in racing physics.

1st starting off the line is poorly done in GTP5 for me, it is ultimatly enough to floor the pedal and you will have better results than using throttle control. Forza has nailed this in my opinion and the feel is comparable with my few experiences with 1/4 mile at the track.

2nd braking is not accurate enough in GTP5 and even on Professional it seems that some weird ABS type effect is hard coded. Braking is probably the 2nd important thing in racing but it has been weak in all GT's. I think most people playing GT's are poor at braking and they do not care that it is not accurate because it is easier. When I have introduced solely GT playing players to pc sims(GTR, Iracing, etc) I notice a trouble in preventing the lockup of wheels as if their braking foot is not tuned to a lack of ABS.

Forza 2 while being overly sensitive in the brakes has a much better feel of locking and controlling the brake which becomes as much of a skill as throttle control.

When it comes to racing games I am as sim as you can get and race with no lines and every assist off even ABS which most people probably keep on. While GT5P does a lot of things better than Forza 2, there are still things that Forza 2 does better.

Oh I just remembered, engine braking also seems absent in GT5P.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

I will respond to your rant that while I may like GTP5, it has problems with atleast 2 important things that Forza has close to nailed in racing physics.

1st starting off the line is poorly done in GTP5 for me, it is ultimatly enough to floor the pedal and you will have better results than using throttle control. Forza has nailed this in my opinion and the feel is comparable with my few experiences with 1/4 mile at the track.

2nd braking is not accurate enough in GTP5 and even on Professional, which make it seem that some weird ABS type effect is hard coded. Braking is probably the 2nd important thing in racing but it has been weak in all GT's. I think most people playing GT's are poor at braking and they do not care that it is not accurate because it is easier. When I have introduced solely GT playing players to pc sims(GTR, Iracing, etc) I notice a trouble in preventing the lockup of wheels as if their braking foot is not tuned to a lack of ABS.

Forza 2 while being overly sensitive in the brakes has a much better feel of locking and controlling the brake which becomes as much of a skill as throttle control.

When it comes to racing games I am as sim as you can get and race with no lines and every assist off even ABS which most people probably keep on. While GT5P does a lot of things better than Forza 2, there are still things that Forza 2 does better.

which is why the following quote has been said time, and time again.

Each game has there own strength and weakness.

 

[Jay]

2nd braking is not accurate enough in GTP5 and even on Professional it seems that some weird ABS type effect is hard coded. Braking is probably the 2nd important thing in racing but it has been weak in all GT's. I think most people playing GT's are poor at braking and they do not care that it is not accurate because it is easier. When I have introduced solely GT playing players to pc sims(GTR, Iracing, etc) I notice a trouble in preventing the lockup of wheels as if their braking foot is not tuned to a lack of ABS.

Turn ABS off.

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

Turn ABS off.

which is what i do, i like to play with the settings during gameplay, feels rewarding to lock up the front wheels, shows gt has come along way.

 

[Windfire1010]

Turn ABS off.

When the ABS is off you better be careful not to lock up the tires. You have to be so careful how much brake you can apply while trail braking.

 

[myke6699]

I will respond to your rant that while I may like GTP5, it has problems with atleast 2 important things that Forza has close to nailed in racing physics.

1st starting off the line is poorly done in GTP5 for me, it is ultimatly enough to floor the pedal and you will have better results than using throttle control. Forza has nailed this in my opinion and the feel is comparable with my few experiences with 1/4 mile at the track.

2nd braking is not accurate enough in GTP5 and even on Professional it seems that some weird ABS type effect is hard coded. Braking is probably the 2nd important thing in racing but it has been weak in all GT's. I think most people playing GT's are poor at braking and they do not care that it is not accurate because it is easier. When I have introduced solely GT playing players to pc sims(GTR, Iracing, etc) I notice a trouble in preventing the lockup of wheels as if their braking foot is not tuned to a lack of ABS.

Forza 2 while being overly sensitive in the brakes has a much better feel of locking and controlling the brake which becomes as much of a skill as throttle control.

When it comes to racing games I am as sim as you can get and race with no lines and every assist off even ABS which most people probably keep on. While GT5P does a lot of things better than Forza 2, there are still things that Forza 2 does better.

I would say that in GT5P, it's important to adhere to the recommended tires (for actual RL performance) to get a decent feel to the braking but also to get the actual feel and handling of the car correctly. I would even go as far as suggesting only N3 (Road Tires) for anything but the Tuned Cars which i would then use only S1s. Anything less the 300 bhp, N2s. Of course with these tires selection, throttle and braking play a more role in the actual handling of the cars. If you have access to FM2, I would then suggest that you do a quick test around the only track that both games have in common: Suzuka. Whether it's the longer version of the Shorter East version, and using the stock car in FM2 and then using similar car in stock form in GT5P (while using the recommended tires for the particular car). Not only will you find the time you get in GT5P slower but the handling around the corners and also the braking becomes more critical. Actually even more so than FM2. In most cases the time in FM2 is always faster that what you would get IRL- by quite a margin. In GT5P, the time is always closer to that of RL performance gibe and take a few seconds. While this doesn't answer the question of which games have the best physics- because for most part (and in the case of console sim), it's very subjective since neither are quite close to what actual sim should be(have). But time is always the absolute measurement regardless of how crude the experiment may be (hopefully not so much).

 

[warpspeed2slow]

I would say that in GT5P, it's important to adhere to the recommended tires (for actual RL performance) to get a decent feel to the braking but also to get the actual feel and handling of the car correctly. I would even go as far as suggesting only N3 (Road Tires) for anything but the Tuned Cars which i would then use only S1s. Anything less the 300 bhp, N2s. Of course with these tires selection, throttle and braking play a more role in the actual handling of the cars. If you have access to FM2, I would then suggest that you do a quick test around the only track that both games have in common: Suzuka. Whether it's the longer version of the Shorter East version, and using the stock car in FM2 and then using similar car in stock form in GT5P (while using the recommended tires for the particular car). Not only will you find the time you get in GT5P slower but the handling around the corners and also the braking becomes more critical. Actually even more so than FM2. In most cases the time in FM2 is always faster that what you would get IRL- by quite a margin. In GT5P, the time is always closer to that of RL performance gibe and take a few seconds. While this doesn't answer the question of which games have the best physics- because for most part (and in the case of console sim), it's very subjective since neither are quite close to what actual sim should be(have). But time is always the absolute measurement regardless of how crude the experiment may be (hopefully not so much).

I agree but like you said the quicker times are not definitive of which has better physics, especially at the limit. Also I believe being able to use engine braking more accurately in Forza makes it feel just a little better during braking than GTP5.

Both games have their strengths and weaknesses. Forza 3 and GT5 will likely continue the trend even if fanboys on both sides think otherwise.

To the Einsteins saying turn off ABS, I already explained that I only play racing games with ABS off.(That would include GT5P if your unsure)

 

[Jay]

To the Einsteins saying turn off ABS, I already explained that I only play racing games with ABS off.(That would include GT5P if your unsure)

Then you would know it is very easy to lock up tyres in GT5P without delicate threshold braking and reducing brake pressure (in the brake bias option).

If anyone was good at GT5P with ABS off and standard braking pressure then they would be fine at threshold braking with other games, including PC sims.

 

[Scaff]

I will respond to your rant that while I may like GTP5, it has problems with atleast 2 important things that Forza has close to nailed in racing physics.



1st starting off the line is poorly done in GTP5 for me, it is ultimatly enough to floor the pedal and you will have better results than using throttle control. Forza has nailed this in my opinion and the feel is comparable with my few experiences with 1/4 mile at the track.

I would disagree that you can simply bury the throttle and off you go in GT5P, and while FM2 does better model off the line in RWD car slightly better than GT5P, it however doesn't with FWD cars at all (the entire physics of which are still off and have been since the first game).

2nd braking is not accurate enough in GTP5 and even on Professional it seems that some weird ABS type effect is hard coded. Braking is probably the 2nd important thing in racing but it has been weak in all GT's. I think most people playing GT's are poor at braking and they do not care that it is not accurate because it is easier. When I have introduced solely GT playing players to pc sims(GTR, Iracing, etc) I notice a trouble in preventing the lockup of wheels as if their braking foot is not tuned to a lack of ABS.

Now you are talking about two very different things here.

First the braking in GT5P is not perfect, but with ABS switched off it is well modeled (and before you make any judgements about my knowledge of braking systems I strongly recomend you take a read of the GT4 thread on braking). FM2 has completely overblown lock-up and a standard wheel that makes it almost impossiable to judge when you are on the edge.

The second part of you point here could also be applied to the vast majority of FM racers, as most of them don't switch ABS off either. Hell in this day and age (and I speak from experience here) it applies to most real world drivers, many, many of whom have never driven a car without ABS. Pop them in a car without in and ask them to control in under heavy braking and they will fail.

Forza 2 while being overly sensitive in the brakes has a much better feel of locking and controlling the brake which becomes as much of a skill as throttle control.

No its doesn't. If FM2 is over sensitive to lock-up that is just as bad as saying that GT5P is under-sensitive to lock-up. In both situation the physics modeling is off.

I also strongly disagree in regards to feel, but would agree that good (ABS free) braking is as important, if not more important that throttle control.

When it comes to racing games I am as sim as you can get and race with no lines and every assist off even ABS which most people probably keep on. While GT5P does a lot of things better than Forza 2, there are still things that Forza 2 does better.

I would agree, but not entirely in the two areas that you have mentioned.

Oh I just remembered, engine braking also seems absent in GT5P.

Sorry but that is simply not correct, tested and shown to be present in the series. Even back in GT4 it was pretty much spot-on, my main complain with it is actually that it rev-matches on shift far more perfectly that a human ever could.


Regards

Scaff

 

[sumbrownkid]

I like using ABS, though only at level 1. And does engine breaking noticeably help in GT5? I haven't really noticed it.

 

[phil-t]

Certainly possible especially these days amongst younger gamers.

Personally for me what stood out the most between FM2 and GT5P is the physics engine. I played FM2 from release but when I played GT5P I realised I had been playing an arcade game for many months. I found GT5P physics in a different class to FM2 and im sure that will be the case with GT5.

Different class, just not a better one?

It's fair to say we all have our preferences for how the games feel, but to say FM2 is an arcade game in comparison is just plainly insane (in a nice way )

I like plenty about both, and there's a little to not like about both, I really have never found anything more then tit for tat reviews in this regard and that backs up my own experience.

I am expecting GT5 to improve on GT5P in some areas, we know FM3 has (and I'm also looking forward to that), but I'm not under any illusion that physics wise, they should be quite close..

I play LFS and rFactor (as well as the slightly dumbed down Race Pro), and you can't honestly say that GT5 is a 'simulator' on that level? it's good enough, and that's all that really matters!

 

[warpspeed2slow]

Scaff, in regards to over-sensitive or under-sensitive brakes as one being no better than the other in theory is true. I would say I think it is worse usually to have a under-sensitive brake foot than a over one but that is just me.

I kinda agree with most you wrote but personally I find the braking(engine braking in paticular) in general more satisfying in Forza 2. The fact that you can damage the engine for downshifting without trying to match revs adds to the realisim for me even if not perfect.

I don't like fanboys on either side and like you said there are plenty of things GT5P does better than Forza 2 and vice versa. I don't see GT5 changing that as right now, especially if I look back at all that was promised for previous GT's and not delivered.

 

[warpspeed2slow]

I am expecting GT5 to improve on GT5P in some areas, we know FM3 has (and I'm also looking forward to that), but I'm not under any illusion that physics wise, they should be quite close..

I play LFS and rFactor (as well as the slightly dumbed down Race Pro), and you can't honestly say that GT5 is a 'simulator' on that level? it's good enough, and that's all that really matters!

It's like you read my mind, lol. I like the way you think.

Finally someone who has played pc sims and sees the light. Race Pro is exactly as you said "slightly dumbed down" but the F3000 in that game is so well done, hot lapping with it doesn't get old.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Different class, just not a better one?

It's fair to say we all have our preferences for how the games feel, but to say FM2 is an arcade game in comparison is just plainly insane (in a nice way )

I like plenty about both, and there's a little to not like about both, I really have never found anything more then tit for tat reviews in this regard and that backs up my own experience.

I am expecting GT5 to improve on GT5P in some areas, we know FM3 has (and I'm also looking forward to that), but I'm not under any illusion that physics wise, they should be quite close..

I play LFS and rFactor (as well as the slightly dumbed down Race Pro), and you can't honestly say that GT5 is a 'simulator' on that level? it's good enough, and that's all that really matters!

There are alot of things I dislike about the FM2 physics engine.

1. How the cars especially race cars react to rumble strips.
2. leaderboards dominated by muscle cars using stock brakes, stock tyres, 1090 HP, remaining in same gear for entire lap.
3. Brakes are far too sensitive without ABS. Some of the top leaderboard times are now set with ABS off but they are tapping the handbrake to slow down!
4. Cars seem to float and don't seem connected to the road.
5. No feeling of weight distribution in the cars and feel to loose with a tendancy for oversteer.

As I enjoy hotlapping all of the above spoilt it for me on FM2. However none of the above is true for GT5P which is why I prefer the physics engine. Hotlapping on GT5P is much more enjoyable because your rewarded far more for you precision around the track.

 

[jagenigma]

http://www.n4g.com/xbox360/NewsCom-371535.aspx?CT=2

I find it strange T10 doesn't show any direct gameplay, are the hiding something?

The link you provided has people that really don't know jack about GT. GT has vastly changed since GT1. It has MUCH better gameplay now, The AI is VASTLY improved, they don't just drive their line llike nothing is in their way like in gt1 to gt3. GT4, GT5p and GT5 have and will prove that. Anyways, that is just another lackluster crappy video from T10 trying to get people to go to Forza. Good luck attracting ricers.

 

[ZROC]

There are alot of things I dislike about the FM2 physics engine.

1. How the cars especially race cars react to rumble strips.
2. leaderboards dominated by muscle cars using stock brakes, stock tyres, 1090 HP, remaining in same gear for entire lap.
3. Brakes are far too sensitive without ABS. Some of the top leaderboard times are now set with ABS off but they are tapping the handbrake to slow down!
4. Cars seem to float and don't seem connected to the road.
5. No feeling of weight distribution in the cars and feel to loose with a tendancy for oversteer.

As I enjoy hotlapping all of the above spoilt it for me on FM2. However none of the above is true for GT5P which is why I prefer the physics engine. Hotlapping on GT5P is much more enjoyable because your rewarded far more for you precision around the track.

That was addressed recently and was mostly due to the Performance Points system and how the AI rated the car. Which I think was how fast the AI was able to drive the car are something like that, now it more on what the car can actually do. I dont remember the specific of it off hand, but they said you wont see that if F3.

 

[Emet_PL]

I'm big GT fan but I have open eyes and have to show you something. Well.. probably many of you noticed this already but some of you still say that GT5 has far superior physics compared to Forza 2 (and FM3).
Drving car at quite hight speeds is more realistic in GT but.. overall physics in it are so.. so.. poor. Forza eats it on breakfast (well.. I think, almost every driving game beats GT in terms of overall physics).

Here's one example of physics defects in GT5 (and I'm quite sure it will be present in full GT5 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jXl75KlD8I

Poor quality because recorded by a phone.

 

[Kryz11]

I agree with the video, that is what I was writing about.. With Mid to High speeds, the Physics in GT are pretty decent, but with Low to Medium speeds in GT, physics are terrible.. I really hope they fix the issue by GT5.

 

[Custer85]

Talking about defective physics, Forza 2 has its own share of issues :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IEBYomIo6M&feature=PlayList&p=2D63E7221150E2EC&index=3

The physics for the suspension are somehow weired.

 

[Zer0]

Forza 3, stability and traction control off:

[youtubehd]ADOLPNcF4uM[/youtubehd]

 

[Bogie 19th]

Dang that game is sexy as hell!

 

[amar212]

Forza 3, stability and traction control off:

Despite being a 4WD it should have spun-out at least 35 times during that drive while collision physics is horrid. Raises eyebrows.

 

[MonkeySkater]

Heh the head on smash seems to have fixed his steering problems. Slightly dissapointed with the damage modeling there, does anyone know if its got settings? (a slider or something).

 

[Zathra5_]

The car did this odd sideways shuffle around the 4'24 mark. Great for parallel parking.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I watched it again...very very nice. Love the cars, scenery, physics, etc. But dang, that guy cannot drive. He was ALL OVER that road. He might want to enable those 2 assists, lol.