Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[II IVORBIGUN II]

I already stated why Forza only has 8 cars. Much higher poly counts, much, MUCH better A.I and more complicated Physics calculations over GT5.

If T10 went down to GT's levels of physics, A.I and poly counts they could do just as much, if not more cars on track.

Have to disagree with the A.I

If you have run the career/exhibition events on FM2 as often as I have you would disagree.

For starters the A.I are complete idiots. They drive around the track as though you don't even exist. I've lost count how many times i've run perfect laps only to find myself getting thrown off the track after the slightest collision. Another annoying thing is how easy the A.I are to beat. When running a career event which consists of more than 9 laps, I end up lapping the A.I on the 8/9th lap when the difficulty is set on hard. This is hardly a challenge is it!!

After posting on numerous threads on this topic i've become tired of these FM3 VS GT5 topics. I shall buy FM3 but this is a stop gap until GT5 comes out and im unlikely to play FM3 again. These are my personal reasons although im not stating them as facts, just my opinion.

1. GT5 likely to have more cars.
2. More tracks.
3. Better physics engine.
4. Better graphics.
5. Possible weather/day night races.
6. Bugatti Veyron.
7. Top Gear test track.
8. Grid of 16.
9. Longer lifespan
10. Support for Logitech wheels

I don't like the direction Turn 10 are taking Forza. They are trying to appeal to arcade racers and focussing on UGC rather than racing. I want a racing game to race and not mess around in the auction house or painting my cars.

My prediction is come next year a majority of Forza players from Europe/Australia will move over the GT5.

 

[TeamStig]

Now, for worse if their cars have 1 Million Polys, its sad how they managed to make them more unreal than GT5P models.

Exactly. I guess it's not the amount of polygons you have, but the way they are used. PD did an incredible job with the reflections and lighting on the cars in GT5P. The best looking car models of any game I have ever played.

I didn't think that a developer could actually screw up the paint on a car until I played FM2. IF FM3 looks as good as it does in these bullshots, then they've definitely come a long way.

 

[paskowitz]

If you want to Compare, see this Pic:

FM3 vs GT5P

I think all this talk of model poly count is rather silly. Both models look great. In fact I think they both looks so great that there is no point arguing which is better. However there is one disparity that does seem to be very different between GT5p and FM3 and that is lighting. From looking at these shots and other, it is apparent to me that GT5p lighting is miles better than FM3's. Its not that GT's has all these "special effects" or that it has the most number of dynamic lights or the biggest baddest most advanced specular blah blah, it just looks real. The FM series has always had this haze over everything and to be honest they can have 10m poly cars, it won't make a difference if the lighting is not accurate. The Ferrari in the FM3 shot looks real its just that the light hitting the car makes it look like a game. GT5p is not "better" per say its just more "real" looking. Not to say FM3 does not look good.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Im rather dubious of these screenshots of FM3. I seem to remember prior to FM2 similiar screenshots were released and yet come release the car modelling didn't look nowhere near as good.

 

[paskowitz]

Im rather dubious of these screenshots of FM3. I seem to remember prior to FM2 similiar screenshots were released and yet come release the car modelling didn't look nowhere near as good.

Well thats the case with just about any game these days.

 

[Ghoa$t]

the biggest difference between those two pictures is that one is photo mode and one is in game. no to take anything away from forza but the game doesnt look like that in gameplay.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Besides putting it into practice all you have to do is watch episodes of Top Gear or other car programmes when the cars are on the tracks ( it's the best source for these things ), look at the effects of the sun on the bodywork and transfer the knowledge bit by bit with the method you use for lighting and shadows etc until you get it right.Just a place of inspiration really.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Or just use real time reflections and for the lighting as reference the awesome game "Real Life" (annoying gameplay but the graphics are sick).

 

[ZROC]

paskowitz, that is pretty much what I said.


Found this the other day regarding the screenshots..

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16492239&postcount=2450

 

[Dominguero]

EDIT: Btw is that F430 RHD in Forza? Or is the pic. mirrored?

I'm wondering the same. Must be mirrored, don't see why that would be RHD.

 

[paskowitz]

paskowitz, that is pretty much what I said.


Found this the other day regarding the screenshots..

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16492239&postcount=2450

It does not matter what T10 rep Che says, that fact of the matter is for some reason FM3's lighting model does not look as "real life-esk" as GT5p's. I know this is partially opinionated but there is some vein of truth to what I am saying. I think the best way to describe it is again this slight haze, like everything is washed out. GT5p has this crisp pop that, to me at least, conveys a great sense of realism. Also he is lying. I have seen direct feed gameplay of FM3 at 720p and direct feed replays at 720p and the replays (where the screen shots come from) are DEFINITIVELY better looking than the gameplay. Again some people will take this too far. The gameplay still looks great. We are getting to a point where you gotta ask yourself, "how much more graphical detail do I need?"

 

[G.T.Ace]

paskowitz, that is pretty much what I said.


Found this the other day regarding the screenshots..

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16492239&postcount=2450

Go watch some in-game videos. Plenty of them around.

Oh Che, funny that the game looks worse in in-game videos.

 

[ZROC]

http://cdn.forzamotorsport.net/uploadedImages/Media/Images/Forza_3_Kotaku_Multiplayer/FM3_SuperCarShootout_3.jpg?n=7718

Its mirrored. There is the original pic from FM.net

 

[ZROC]

It does not matter what T10 rep Che says, that fact of the matter is for some reason FM3's lighting model does not look as "real life-esk" as GT5p's. I know this is partially opinionated but there is some vein of truth to what I am saying. I think the best way to describe it is again this slight haze, like everything is washed out. GT5p has this crisp pop that, to me at least, conveys a great sense of realism.

I was agreeing with you.

Also he is lying. I have seen direct feed gameplay of FM3 at 720p and direct feed replays at 720p and the replays (where the screen shots come from) are DEFINITIVELY better looking than the gameplay. Again some people will take this too far. The gameplay still looks great. We are getting to a point where you gotta ask yourself, "how much more graphical detail do I need?"

I think its true for any game with photomode.

 

[phil-t]

Looking at those F430 pics, ignore the lighting/shading (Clearly not as good as GT5p), but in terms of pure polys, you can't see huge difference, FM3 does seem to have sun visors or something modelled in the interior, on some shots the window surrounds have a little more detail, and going by the info leaked from FM3, the undersides are 3D modelled, just that it's suspected these are quite generically modelled rather then accurate..

No one except SR has really claimed 1 Million Polys, I'd say it's most likely higher the GT5p but not by that much..

And I think since they do the livery graphics on top, it's fair to say that's gonna eat into their resources a bit in terms of textures..

It'll be interesting to see what the F430 in FM3 ends up like, it does seem car models are improving a bit in recent screen shots, and the shaders are getting a bit better, but lets face it, only an insane person would expect T10 to better PD in that department.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Not really, MotorStorm PR and WipEout HD look the same in photomode and in-game (except some DOF effects and blur in WipEout HD, which wouldnt work while racing though).

Theres also nothing wrong when a game looks better in photomode, the problem is they said it is the best looking racing game this gen, plus saying photomode and gameplay are the same, which is just untrue, both.

EDIT:

No one except SR has really claimed 1 Million Polys

Turn 10 (Dan Greenawalt) said the cars have 10times the polycount from FM2, which would mean ~1 million.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Dan Greenwalt, like Kaz, have said a lot of things. But with Kaz's track record backing him up so far, you have to take Danny boy with a grain of salt.

 

[phil-t]

Not really, MotorStorm PR and WipEout HD look the same in photomode and in-game (except some DOF effects and blur in WipEout HD, which wouldnt work while racing though).

Theres also nothing wrong when a game looks better in photomode, the problem is they said it is the best looking racing game this gen, plus saying photomode and gameplay are the same, which is just untrue, both.

EDIT:
Turn 10 (Dan Greenawalt) said the cars have 10times the polycount from FM2, which would mean ~1 million.

Just a couple of quick thoughts..

1. We know that FM3 uses tessellation, this increases polycountin hardware

2. You don't render all your poly's, culling/LOD can reduce this dramatically

Based on the famous Mazda MX5 screenshot from FM2, I'd quite easily believe FM3 is rendering ten times as many poly's as that..

I know this is the worst of the worst of the worst shot of FM2.. but I'm just showing how low poly it got..

 

[Dave A]

I'm wondering the same. Must be mirrored, don't see why that would be RHD.

It's no big deal, Ferari make and sell a lot of RHD cars including the F430. It's odd since Ferrari makes both LHD and RHD versions of the car but is native to a LHD country that's all. I'd be more concerned if it was RHD and Ferrari didn't make RHD versions.

 

[ZROC]

Its mirrored.

http://cdn.forzamotorsport.net/uploadedImages/Media/Images/Forza_3_Kotaku_Multiplayer/FM3_SuperCarShootout_3.jpg?n=7718

Its mirrored. There is the original pic from FM.net

 

[G.T.Ace]

@phil-t: What "famous" MX-5 shot? The game looks always the same to me in the screenshots.
GT5Ps cars have around 200.000-250.000 polygons, so the cars in FM3 wouldve around 4 times as much, you would not only see it, it would also take ages to model all the cars (and they wouldnt have the less detailed interiors when looking from the outside).

EDIT: Thanks for the pic.
I dont say FM3 uses the same polycount, but i seriously doubt 1.000.000.
Btw. sorry for the first sentence, i thought you mean a pic from FM3.

 

[sumbrownkid]

That one million poly figure is really skewed.

 

[phil-t]

@phil-t: What "famous" MX-5 shot? The game looks always the same to me in the screenshots.
GT5Ps cars have around 200.000-250.000 polygons, so the cars in FM3 wouldve around 4 times as much, you would not only see it, it would also take ages to model all the cars (and they wouldnt have the less detailed interiors when looking from the outside)

See my edit.. it's shocking...

I 100% agree that the cars do not have 1 million polys..

I'm sure there is a 'case' where the 10x number may come from, either in poly's rendered, or a specific worse case model.. It's always marketing speak..

Btw. sorry for the first sentence, i thought you mean a pic from FM3.

No probs.. That FM2 pic is flippin awful, I didn't really want to put it up as I like to be as impartial as I can be, hence the worst of the worst disclaimer!..

 

[G.T.Ace]

I just don't have the same contempt for them, I know what they say is marketing speak and often needs to be put in context

I agree, but if a dev says exact numbers or is talking about technical details that are just wrong, he loses all his creditability for me.

 

[Kingdizzi]

How big is Turn 10? Even if they are the size of PD (seriously doubt that) a new game every two years with Forza 3 being such a leap graphically from Forza 2 means they must be outsourcing a lot of the development. PD has 140 employees according to a new Sony website which opened today and all development is obviously done in house with GT5.

Just looking at the size of PD and the budget they get it is clear that GT5 is going to be a monster. My gripe with Forza 3 is not huge but only 8 cars on a track at once are simply not enough for me. The size of PD also shows that they are not going to sit down a year after GT5 releases and keep on making DLC. Definitely going to be a GT6 this generation unless people honestly believe they will waste that engine after one game.

 

[phil-t]

I agree, but if a dev says exact numbers or is talking about technical details that are just wrong, he loses all his creditability for me.

Blimey, you caught the ninja editing!

I retracted that as it was innapropriate, as it unfairly inferred this was occuring here, which I really don't believe

 

[TeamStig]

Dan Greenwalt, like Kaz, have said a lot of things. But with Kaz's track record backing him up so far, you have to take Danny boy with a grain of salt.

Yeah, I have a hard time believing what he has to say, since he spends about half of every interview or press event taking jabs at other driving sims (especially GT).

Based on the famous Mazda MX5 screenshot from FM2, I'd quite easily believe FM3 is rendering ten times as many poly's as that..

My reactions after seeing the above picture: >>>>

I enjoyed FM2 and will definitely buy FM3 on day one. Unless GT5 comes out in 2009, it will be the biggest release of the year for me. But the more I hear about this game, the more I hear about the negative facts that were "conveniently" left out by Turn 10 representatives, the more disappointed I get. Two years is simply not long enough to create a quality experience and no amount of touting your product and calling it "THE DEFINITIVE DRIVING GAME OF THIS GENERATION" will make it so.

 

[phil-t]

Yeah, I have a hard time believing what he has to say, since he spends about half of every interview or press event taking jabs at other driving sims (especially GT).



My reactions after seeing the above picture: >>>>

I enjoyed FM2 and will definitely buy FM3 on day one. Unless GT5 comes out in 2009, it will be the biggest release of the year for me. But the more I hear about this game, the more I hear about the negative facts that were "conveniently" left out by Turn 10 representatives, the more disappointed I get. Two years is simply not long enough to create a quality experience and no amount of touting your product and calling it "THE DEFINITIVE DRIVING GAME OF THIS GENERATION" will make it so.

I am still quite open minded, a lot of it sounds good, the drift/drag/point to point/upgrades/livery/online all seem pretty reasonable, but then I really enjoyed Midnight Club LA/TDU etc which some people wouldn't even bother with..

 

[TeamStig]

I am still quite open minded, a lot of it sounds good, the drift/drag/point to point/upgrades/livery/online all seem pretty reasonable, but then I really enjoyed Midnight Club LA/TDU etc which some people wouldn't even bother with..

It's just what Turn 10 says the game will be vs. what it really is. In the past they have not lived up to their promises. Hopefully all of that will change this time around. I'm cautiously optimistic.

On a side note I liked MC:LA as well, and TDU is horribly underrated.

 

[Supercharger666]

Added some real pictures from roughly the same angle:

It is really the lighting and reflections that make GT5 look so stunning!