Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[Famine]

I proved it earlier in the thread where the PS3 can render 275 million polys a second and the 360 can render 500 million/sec

divide them by 60 for how many per frame they can handle at 60fps it is 4.6 million per frame (rounded up) for the PS3 and 8.3 million for the 360 rounded down.

So with 8, 1m polygon cars on track at once, FM3 leaves just 300,000 polygons for the track?


Incidentally, you're arguing that the FM2/3 Nuerburgring has more accurate-to-life trackside details while being considerably wider and 2 miles longer than the actual track. Call me Captain Oddy McOddpants but if I'm driving a supposed real-life track, I'd rather the environments I can actually interact with are closer to reality.

 

[scandisk]

Oh, so you've played FM3's Nurburgring?

Also, if you are complaining about the wider track it is already well known that is for Multiplayer to make it possible to pass people without causing a crash in the world of online idiots.

The Nordschleife is about 12.9 miles long, and with 8 cars on the track in FM3 theres plenty of tarmac to race and I highly doubt that widening the track is for online play.

 

[McLaren]

Oh, so they show render bugs in a few areas but in the area that "proves" damage, day/night cycles etc and such not a single thing?

Regardless of the point you are attempting to make, it is all in-game.

I am pretty sure there have been more "promises" in the past but I can't be bothered right now to find them. (most were of GT4)

Then why bother bringing them up if you won't provide them?

it is false. It is not a simulator. BMW's "ultimate driving machine" is an opinion.

Ah, see, it is actually a fact that is a simulator. The tagline however, is an opinion because many people do have different opinions on how real it is. But again, it is still a simulator.

Forget all those pre-lauch E3 videos of PS2 and 3 did you?

That's a pitiful excuse not to trust a Sony employee. 👎

 

[niky]

So you call GTs 1 line A.I that doesn't care where the player is good do you?

While GT5P's AI isn't perfect, the AI cars don't flow along single file anymore. And you're claiming an unreleased game has better AI than anything else out there because... you've played it? As we've discussed before... there are a load of PC Sims that are much better than either game.

10 x 100,000 = 1,000,000

Claimed, for an unreleased game, but not proven for the final release, not yet. And damnit... Tree'd by Famine...

GT4's ring was good but had no where near the track side detail on FM1 and FM2's nurburgring is not as bad as people think.

Trackside detail for GT4 was very good, except for a few minor trees (some trees used as markers for turns are there). And FM2's ring was still too wide and smooth.

Camber doesn't affect cars as it should (it does affect them) and Fuel levels and tire wear affect the cars greatly.

My words were in reaction to the statement "based on physics engine, not changes in car dynamics"... which seemed very strange to me.

And in my opinion GT fanboys should back up their own claims of simply "Youre wrong" aswell.

So... the arguments twenty pages ago were.... what?

 

[SatansReverence]

Ok, so the countless hours spent combing EVERY INCH of that video and the fact that countless little mistakes are in there doesn't tell you that it is in fact REAL gampelay... Know what I know exactly what you are going to say to that... PD just sicks and pays no attention to details... Which is of course foolishness, GT has had a CRONIC problem with delays because of Kaz's obsession with the tiny details, and getting everything PERFECT. SO why would they make a CG video with a flag clipping through a pole, or the dash of the subaru saying is was going 0 MPH and was revving at 0 RPMs? Pr having the front drives side tire slightly going through the ground just BARELY, and do all of that in 1080P, where we could see it all? Oh, and let's not forget the Citroen GT and the Viper mishap
...

Oh, Oh, Oh, is that why at the start they show 2 rally cars on circuit with no dirt or dust on them and then with the so called damage "proving" shot the car has dirt on it?

All I can see in that trailer is some ingame footage mixed with CG.

They do it pretty well though, showing some in game models but touched up through CG.

Also, GT5 is not 1080P, it is 1280x1080 upscaled since you people say Forza 3 won't be 1080P becuase it is just upscaled from 720P.

So with 8, 1m polygon cars on track at once, FM3 leaves just 300,000 polygons for the track?


Incidentally, you're arguing that the FM2/3 Nuerburgring has more accurate-to-life trackside details while being considerably wider and 2 miles longer than the actual track. Call me Captain Oddy McOddpants but if I'm driving a supposed real-life track, I'd rather the environments I can actually interact with are closer to reality.

Actually, it seems the speedo doens't match the track.

I posted a vid a page or 2 ago showing it is not the track that is out (there are only 3-4 areas that are wrong) but its the FoV that makes it look and feel so wrong.

I (and any none fanboy) can hope they fix that stupid FoV in FM3.

 

[SatansReverence]

DP again, soz

 

[Jay]

I posted a vid a page or 2 ago showing it is not the track that is out (there are only 3-4 areas that are wrong) but its the FoV that makes it look and feel so wrong.

I (and any none fanboy) can hope they fix that stupid FoV in FM3.

If the FOV makes the tracks look extra wide then the cars on the track (in the same place) would also appear extra wide, taking the cars on the track in any location as reference the track is too wide.

You should hope they fix the track rather than the photomode FOV.

 

[RedSuinit]

Oh, Oh, Oh, is that why at the start they show 2 rally cars on circuit with no dirt or dust on them and then with the so called damage "proving" shot the car has dirt on it?

First off, in the shot with the rally cars we don't know how LONG they had been on the track. Second the front drivers side tire clipping into the ground that I was talking about was on the SUBARU at the same time as the DAMAGE.....

All I can see in that trailer is some ingame footage mixed with CG.

They do it pretty well though, showing some in game models but touched up through CG.

Fanboy at it's best... SO how much did Microsoft pay you?

Also, GT5 is not 1080P, it is 1280x1080 upscaled since you people say Forza 3 won't be 1080P becuase it is just upscaled from 720P.

Ok so now you're claiming they are upscaling form 1280 x 1080 to 1920x 1080? So a disproportinal upscaling... Hmmm to bad that DOESN'T WORK... The upscaling has to be proportional.

 

[SatansReverence]

If the FOV makes the tracks look extra wide then the cars on the track (in the same place) would also appear extra wide, taking the cars on the track in any location as reference the track is too wide.

The track is modeled wide, the FoV only changes the visual length of the track.

Standard FM2 FoV on the right here (kinda looks adjusted to make it longer then default actually)
Adjusted FoV

Ok so now you're claiming they are upscaling form 1280 x 1080 to 1920x 1080? So a disproportinal upscaling... Hmmm to bad that DOESN'T WORK... The upscaling has to be proportional.

proof.

I think thats the right one, page won't load for me.

 

[Famine]

Also, GT5 is not 1080P, it is 1280x1080 upscaled since you people say Forza 3 won't be 1080P becuase it is just upscaled from 720P.

I don't know about GT5 since it isn't out yet, but GT5P is 1920x1080 native.

Actually, it seems the speedo doens't match the track.

I posted a vid a page or 2 ago showing it is not the track that is out (there are only 3-4 areas that are wrong) but its the FoV that makes it look and feel so wrong.

I (and any none fanboy) can hope they fix that stupid FoV in FM3.

Is that error peculiar to just the 'Ring or is it present on other tracks?

Experimentation shows that higher (indicated) corner speeds are possible in FM2 than GT4, and in GT4 than reality, yet the FM2 track is longer (the FM1 version considerably so) than both the GT4 one and the real track. So for the speedo to be artificially exaggerated and still make the track artificially long is a bit of a logical reach.

Incidentally, the 'Ring is 6 yards wide at its narrowest, meaning it should be just possible to line three and a half very narrow cars alongside each other, scraping paint (or not scraping anything in GT4).

 

[Jay]

The track is modeled wide, the FoV only changes the visual length of the track.

Ok so you admit the track is modelled wide, so then it is "out".


Btw to post embeded youtube videos just put the "btDbZuyqmp0" (first vid) and "7ZmfVZwhrNI" (second vid) in the youtube tags *edit* nevermind you figured it out



.

 

[myke6699]

So you call GTs 1 line A.I that doesn't care where the player is good do you?



10 x 100,000 = 1,000,000



GT4's ring was good but had no where near the track side detail on FM1 and FM2's nurburgring is not as bad as people think.

Camber doesn't affect cars as it should (it does affect them) and Fuel levels and tire wear affect the cars greatly.



And in my opinion GT fanboys should back up their own claims of simply "Youre wrong" aswell.

[youtubehd]Vge2ZZVjplk[/youtubehd][/QUOTE]

[youtubehd]wD8bgqp5sXA[/youtubehd][/QUOTE]

[youtubehd]Z0E-0zAlcNA[/youtubehd][/QUOTE]

Being on the current gen console- FM2 graphic quality is much superior to GT4. Besides the inaccuracy in the track itself (too wide and too smooth and hardly any perceptible elevation), despite the "details" in the trees, someone at T10 decided that it's fine to have less trees. Nordschleife is known as the Green Hell because of the abundance of trees and bushes.

I don't see why T10 would change its current version since most of FM fans are quitte happy with it. In FM3, it will probably be just as wide, with highly detailed tress but less and a Karussell that just isn't one.

 

[Scaff]

No, I did not think spending time away would make people forget (although it seems some have).

And you thought that made it ok did you?

Your were called out on this by a member of staff and reminded that it was an AUP issue to make such a claim, that doesn't get forgotten.

Neither should the point that you haven't still actually proven ownership, given that you came out with a bizarre excuse regarding it.

I quote...

p.p.s will try to get that cardboard sign but the light and contrast didn't agree with it yesterday.

...to which I replied....

What are you on about, how exactly was the light and contrast not good enough for a cardboard sign written on with magic marker?

When you answer keep in mind that quite a few of us here are keen photographers and know what we are talking about, also keep in mind with all your replies the following bit of the AUP.

You will not post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

[/QUOTE]

...and I'm still waiting for both of those.

Since the next track day in my area is in december and the track is a good 4 hours away from where I live and since I don't want to put video's of myself driving dangerously on public roads I guess, for now I will have to retract them statements.

As track days are totally non-competitive and you could well get black flagged for racing I seriously doubt that would prove anything.

you could stick my nan in an M3 and I would run rings around her in my 320, doesn't mena my 320 handles better.

I'm glad to see that you have retracted the statement, however this is not the place to do so, the linked thread is. Along with the new pictures and an explanation for your strange lighting conditions.

Could my car beat an M3? IMO yes. Can I prove it does at this time? no.

I seriously doubt you ever will be able to, but get yourself to a track with a skidpan and give me some figures, then I can tell you exactly how it racks up against an M3.


Please do go and address this in the other thread ASAP as my patience in general is wearing very, very thin right now.


Scaff

 

[SatansReverence]

I don't know about GT5 since it isn't out yet, but GT5P is 1920x1080 native.



Is that error peculiar to just the 'Ring or is it present on other tracks?

Experimentation shows that higher (indicated) corner speeds are possible in FM2 than GT4, and in GT4 than reality, yet the FM2 track is longer (the FM1 version considerably so) than both the GT4 one and the real track. So for the speedo to be artificially exaggerated and still make the track artificially long is a bit of a logical reach.

Incidentally, the 'Ring is 6 yards wide at its narrowest, meaning it should be just possible to line three and a half very narrow cars alongside each other, scraping paint (or not scraping anything in GT4).

If the indicated speed is higher then what it should be it would account for higher corner speeds and a longer lap yes?

Also, just to clarify, to measure track length you (or whoever) sat the car at XXX speed and measured how long the track was due to the time it took to go around yes?

And you thought that made it ok did you?

Your were called out on this by a member of staff and reminded that it was an AUP issue to make such a claim, that doesn't get forgotten.

Neither should the point that you haven't still actually proven ownership, given that you came out with a bizarre excuse regarding it.

What are you on about, how exactly was the light and contrast not good enough for a cardboard sign written on with magic marker?

When you answer keep in mind that quite a few of us here are keen photographers and know what we are talking about, also keep in mind with all your replies the following bit of the AUP.

...and I'm still waiting for both of those.

As track days are totally non-competitive and you could well get black flagged for racing I seriously doubt that would prove anything.

you could stick my nan in an M3 and I would run rings around her in my 320, doesn't mena my 320 handles better.

I'm glad to see that you have retracted the statement, however this is not the place to do so, the linked thread is. Along with the new pictures and an explanation for your strange lighting conditions.

I seriously doubt you ever will be able to, but get yourself to a track with a skidpan and give me some figures, then I can tell you exactly how it racks up against an M3.

Please do go and address this in the other thread ASAP as my patience in general is wearing very, very thin right now.

Scaff

The picture didn't work because the piece of cardboard was white and the marker was small and black.

On the preview screen it looked like just a white board so I didn't bother with it.

I ain't a very savvy photograhper.

 

[RedSuinit]

The track is modeled wide, the FoV only changes the visual length of the track.

Standard FM2 FoV on the right here (kinda looks adjusted to make it longer then default actually)
Adjusted FoV



proof.

I think thats the right one, page won't load for me.

That's an N4G post, that is purely speculation based on the APPEARENCE of the game, and the direct link that goes to the supposed discoverers post, doesn't even exist anymore...

EDIT: I got the link to work, it's a 360 site... Yeah I BET they didn't fudge the truth at all...

 

[Scaff]

Ok so you admit the track is modelled wide, so then it is "out".


Btw to post embeded youtube videos just put the "btDbZuyqmp0" (first vid) and "7ZmfVZwhrNI" (second vid) in the youtube tags *edit* nevermind you figured it out



.

Nope I figured it out and edited it, because I get fed-up of looking at dead links.



Scaff

 

[SatansReverence]

That's an N4G post, that is purely speculation based on the APPEARENCE of the game, and the direct link that goes to the supposed discoverers post, doesn't even exist anymore...

EDIT: I got the link to work, it's a 360 site... Yeah I BET they didn't fudge the truth at all...

It is also the same person who showed that Halo 3 wasn't even a HD format.

If he was a 360 fanboy why would he do that?

 

[myke6699]

I don't know about GT5 since it isn't out yet, but GT5P is 1920x1080 native.



Is that error peculiar to just the 'Ring or is it present on other tracks?

Experimentation shows that higher (indicated) corner speeds are possible in FM2 than GT4, and in GT4 than reality, yet the FM2 track is longer (the FM1 version considerably so) than both the GT4 one and the real track. So for the speedo to be artificially exaggerated and still make the track artificially long is a bit of a logical reach.

Incidentally, the 'Ring is 6 yards wide at its narrowest, meaning it should be just possible to line three and a half very narrow cars alongside each other, scraping paint (or not scraping anything in GT4).

Prologue is 1280 p x 1080 p which still makes it 1080 p native except it's been streched horizontally (or upscaled) to fit 16:9 ratio. Still if GT5 stays at Prologue's native resolution, it will still have 460,800 pixels more than FM3.

 

[Jay]

It is true that Prologue is natively 1280x1080p (which technically still makes it 1080p), KY himself (the BS spinner according to Satan) confirmed it himself.

Nope I figured it out and edited it, because I get fed-up of looking at dead links.



Scaff

Ah, indeed 👍

 

[SatansReverence]

The HD format of 1080P is 1920x1080P

1280x1080 is not a HD format.

 

[Jay]

There has already been a big debate on this.

It is still 1080 pixels horizonal and progressive scan, so it's 1080p.

 

[SatansReverence]

There has already been a big debate on this.

It is still 1080 pixels horizonal and progressive scan, so it's 1080p.

No, 1080p is 1920x1080 progressive.

Upscaling to that from anything is NOT 1080p native

 

[phil-t]

It is true that Prologue is natively 1280x1080p (which technically still makes it 1080p), KY himself (the BS spinner according to Satan) confirmed it himself.





Ah, indeed 👍

Not that it matters, but 1080p is an ATSC video standard and is the accepted shortened term for 1920*1080 progressive @ 60 frames per second..

1280*1080 would not technically be accepted as 1080p..

But as said above, it's still more then 720p!!

But then really, it still a moot point, as consoles really lack the ram and power to use high enough resolution textures to actually attain the desired image IQ for full 1080p

Personally I don't really care at all if it's 720p/1080p/pseudo-1080p or whatever, the art style, lighting, shaders and texture usage are far more important.

 

[hardvibes]

Personally I don't really care at all if it's 720p/1080p/pseudo-1080p or whatever, the art style, lighting, shaders and texture usage are far more important.

true
stop debating on numbers. It looks good, period.

 

[Tenacious D]

Very fanboy orientated post, and as for claiming Forza ripped off GT5s cockpit view, then you could say GT5 ripped off Project gotham 3's view.

Well, except you must admit Turn 10 did rip off about everything else...

 

[SatansReverence]

Well, except you must admit Turn 10 did rip off about everything else...

Such as?

 

[Centura]

Gran Turismo 5 Prologue

Gameplay:
1080p: 1280 x 1080 with 2x MSAA, upscaled to 1920 x 1080
720p: 1280 x 720 with 4x MSAA

Showroom is 1920 x 1080 with 0x MSAA.

I don't remember where the source is for this.
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue is running in 1080p, it's just not NATIVE 1080p.

 

[Custer85]

Ive been watching some FM3 videos recently and one thing i noticed was, that it is still missing some of the detail, that even GT4 had. Its the rear wing of the Audi R8 (GT4 had the LeMans Quattro Concept), that pops up at a certain speed. Just like Forza 2 was missing the "air-brake" of the SLR McLaren.

Its this passion for cars and detail, that makes GTs visuals superior to Forzas, i dont care if they have a bit more AA, or some more depth of field, or more bloom or anything. The overall style in GT is second to none!

Wow, 100000 polygons for one car, that sounds pretty much but i guess you will rarely see the high poly models in action, since the number of polygons will be reduced depending on the distance to the car and i think that in 3rd person view there will be just as many polygons vidible as there are in GT5p. (LOD, i looked it up and it really explaines the difference between the screenshots T10 released and the screenshots from actual gameplay and replays)

As far as physics are concerned GT5p and Forza 2 both have their issues and i guess the thing that seperates them is the overall impression you get while driving. I played Forza 2 many times, but neither did i feel connectet to car, nor to the road for that matter. The squealing of the tires sounded as if i was driving a racetruck, sadly GT5p does not sound that much better.

Iam really looking foreward to the first gameplay of GT5 and i hope they release a 1080p video on GTTV. Maybe we get some sort of new trailer at the GamesCom next week, iam pretty excited and maybe i will go there to see it with my own eyes

GT5p:
1290x720 and 1290x1080
60fps (30fps in replay)
4xAA 720p and 2xAA 1290x1080
16 cars on track

Forza3:
1290x720
60fps (30fps for replay and cockpit so far)
4xAA
8 cars on track

so what?

 

[SatansReverence]

wow, someone who comes up with resonable discussions.

First, you missed a 0.

Second, you will get the highest poly models of your own car in game and other cars (depending on distance) will ahve their detail lowered.

Third, you're right, both games have flawed physics, I just prefer Forza's over GT's (they seem artificial)

Tyre noise could do with work in Forza but they are leaps and bounds ahead of GT.

GT5p:
1290x720 and 1290x1080
60fps (30fps in replay)
4xAA 720p and 2xAA 1290x1080
16 cars on track

Forza3:
1290x720
60fps (30fps for replay and cockpit so far)
4xAA
8 cars on track

so what?

Sigh...

I already stated why Forza only has 8 cars. Much higher poly counts, much, MUCH better A.I and more complicated Physics calculations over GT5.

If T10 went down to GT's levels of physics, A.I and poly counts they could do just as much, if not more cars on track.

Also, by released FM3 will be 60fps in cockpit (probably is now but no new gameplay vids have been shown)

 

[Tenacious D]

Such as?

I'm just about to block you, because you throw your ego around too much and your nick is just dumb. So here's a farewell note:

• You begin with a few tens of thousands of credits.
• You go car shopping for a basic but decent street car.
• You enter a basic race of basic difficulty, like a track day, and struggle to make first place. Wash, rinse, repeat till you do.
• Upon completion of the race challenge, you win money and a better car.
• Enter similarr aces until you complete the series, winning more credits and cars. At the completion of the series you win yet another car.
• The challenges and requirements increase on an ever upward ladder of difficulty. The challenges include racing specific makes and possibly even drivetrain and engine types.
• There are a large number of car lots from around the world where you can go car shopping and collecting.
• There is an Arcade Mode where you can complete other challenges at your leisure.
• You can save replays, and there is a Photo Mode.
• One has an accurate model of the Nurburgring Nordshleife.
• And heck, there's probably more since MS has sticky fingers.
• I like kittens and puppies. NOT sacrificed, thank you.

For that matter, while FM2 is a nice game - FM1 was a horrid piece of poo - I haven't had the feeling of playing a racing sim like I have with Prologue. Maybe FW3 will be different.

Tyre noise could do with work in Forza but they are leaps and bounds ahead of GT. (T: ZOMG... you have GOT to be kidding if you like those awful truck tire sounds... GAG)

Sigh...

I already stated why Forza only has 8 cars. Much higher poly counts (T: it doesn't show), much, MUCH better A.I (T: boy is THAT an opinion and a half) and more complicated Physics calculations over GT5 (T: yet another loaded opinion).

If T10 went down to GT's levels of physics, A.I and poly counts they could do just as much, if not more cars on track. (T: they had their chance, but talk is cheap, deeds are all that matter)

Also, by released FM3 will be 60fps in cockpit (probably is now but no new gameplay vids have been shown)

A lot of hopes pinned on that. Are you Che?

I know you prefer the F, but my opinion certainly holds at least as much weight as yours.