Gay Marriage

[PS]

thus why i choose not to post much in the opinion forums anymore... (along with the un-necessary rude remarks, but i do admire the mods good job of keeping it at a minimum)

not like you guys would listen to me anyhow...

with that i depart before i recieve anymore flames

Don't you leave. I've directly asked you the same question, twice, and you chose to ignore it. So answer it now: DID YOU CHOSE TO BE STRAIT??

 

[Swift]

And what's this cause that I don't understand? If I don't understand it, would you care to explain to me, Mr. Holyer-than-thou?

See, this is what I'm talking about. YOu're going to tell me that I'm condesening but a guy that talks about squirting on my wife is cool?

Sorry, not going to go along with that. And if you'd bother to look at my post, I've always said that my sin is AS bad homosexuality. The difference is I reckognize my sin and homosexuals choose not to. Well, I was in the same boat for most of my life so I CAN'T be better then them.

BTW, this is the opinions forum. You are the second person that has brought my position here are GTP into question. If we were in the GT4 Drifting forum you may have a point. But this is the opinions forum. I've seen admins get pretty livid in this forum and they still have their positions. So don't try to say I should be ultra nice just because I'm fortunate enough to be a mod.

 

[PS]

See, this is what I'm talking about. YOu're going to tell me that I'm condesening but a guy that talks about squirting on my wife is cool?

Where the hell did that come from?!

Sorry, not going to go along with that.

I'll second that.

And if you'd bother to look at my post, I've always said that my sin is AS bad homosexuality.

Do you mean being a black christian or something?

The difference is I reckognize my sin and homosexuals choose not to.

What sin is this? Either way homosexuals don't have a sin to recognise— there's nothing they can do about it. THEY DIDNT CHOSE TO BE GAY.

Well, I was in the same boat for most of my life so I CAN'T be better then them.

Noone is better than anyone, so don't even go there.

BTW, this is the opinions forum. You are the second person that has brought my position here are GTP into question.

Possibly, but moderators are supposed to be the role models of GTP, and yes I've seen both the admins redline or start pushing the limits if you know what I mean, but they were still pushin' it. I just fear them a bit a more .

If we were in the GT4 Drifting forum you may have a point.

I find that to be irrelevant because your Moderator status follows you wherever you go, and when people see "Swift", "moderator" and something bad, they don't crae whether or not it's in the GT4 drifting forum.

But this is the opinions forum. I've seen admins get pretty livid in this forum and they still have their positions. So don't try to say I should be ultra nice just because I'm fortunate enough to be a mod.

I'm not, I'm saying you should respect me, because until now I've had full respect for you. When someone starts trying to make someone else look dumb, or calls them a sinner (even if it's beyond one's control) for something, that respect starts to diminish because of their utter lack of discretion.

And would someone, ANYONE, answer my unabated question that has for so long gone unanswered?

If you're all still unsure, it's

"DID YOU CHOSE TO BE STRAIT?"

 

[Delirious]

PS, i believe we are all born heterosexual

somewhere down the line, it is a choice (either directly or indirectly) for every homosexual to be a homosexual...

i just see it as un-natural for one of the same gender to have lustful thoughts over the same gender...

ten, you may not like that, and i hope you understand thats what i believe, no offense to you...i respect you, not agree...but that doesnt make you any worse or better than me

good night

 

[PS]

[edit]

Finally.

 

[smellysocks12]

Though I completely disagree with Swift and some other mods here I gotta give them credit for not banning people with a strong different opinion. On many other forums I would have been banned already for being such a stubborn ass towards an opinion. As a matter of fact, if I would have been Swift I probably would have banned that guy named smellysocks12 ages ago. Not trying to give you any ideas, though.

 

[Ten]

ten, you may not like that, and i hope you understand thats what i believe, no offense to you...i respect you, not agree...but that doesnt make you any worse or better than me

I don't believe any one person is better than any other person.

This is futile. What the hell am I going to accomplish by discussing this with a bunch of GTP users, anyway? If I debate it here until my fingers don't work anymore, it's not like the US government is going to swoop in and see whatever points any of us make as to why or why not whatever.

This thread is nothing more to me now than a way to aggrivate myself. I don't see the logic in doing that, so I'm done.

If you were afraid of the dark would you hide in a closet?

If you knew you were different would stay quiet because of it?

Should you keep your eyes closed to block out the prejudice?

Or would you take it all in to have grounds to fight against it?

Could you close your mind that much to shut out a person?

Would you do it because you think they deserve it?

Would you stand over them and kick dirt in their face?

Or would you die a little inside as they lay there in place?

Do you think it's a choice, something to decide?

Or do you think it just happens, deep down inside?

Would you rather they change and deny who they are?

Or should they embrace it, keep it close to their heart?

What would you do if it were your brother, sister or mom?

Would you still see them hated, would you still wish them harm?

Would you accept what they are, and offer your love?

Or would you shun them forever, ashamed of what they've become?

Would you deny them their right to be happy and equal?

Or would you support them and help them, afterall, they're still people?

If you didn't agree, what would you do?

No matter what your answer, I bet they still love you.

 

[Danoff]

PS, i believe we are all born heterosexual

Um, I don't know why the hell you would believe that but...

somewhere down the line, it is a choice (either directly or indirectly) for every homosexual to be a homosexual...

...and you think this because? You feel like it?

i just see it as un-natural for one of the same gender to have lustful thoughts over the same gender...

It's quite natural. Animals from lots of different species have gay offspring. And the history of humanity is one that includes lots of homosexuality. It isn't like this is a fad.

ten, you may not like that, and i hope you understand thats what i believe, no offense to you...i respect you, not agree...but that doesnt make you any worse or better than me

My question is this (other than just where do you base your opinions): What difference does it make if it's a choice? Why do you get to be a member of a group that is singled out by our government for special privilages while some other group gets less?

 

[Swift]

I don't believe any one person is better than any other person.

This is futile. What the hell am I going to accomplish by discussing this with a bunch of GTP users, anyway? If I debate it here until my fingers don't work anymore, it's not like the US government is going to swoop in and see whatever points any of us make as to why or why not whatever.

This thread is nothing more to me now than a way to aggrivate myself. I don't see the logic in doing that, so I'm done.

Too bad. I learned in the creation thread that leaving only proves that you admit defeat. If you dont' stand up for yourself, who will?

Where the hell did that come from?!

You didn't see the multiple times that Hondakid talked about getting with my wife? how is that not incredibly condesending and insulting?

Possibly, but moderators are supposed to be the role models of GTP, and yes I've seen both the admins redline or start pushing the limits if you know what I mean, but they were still pushin' it. I just fear them a bit a more .

So you stand up to me because I'm a mod, but if I was say, Duke, you wouldn't be so bold? What kind of attitude is that?

Also, you keep asking me to stop saying "do you get it?" But the fact of the matter is you simply don't understand christianity. I have a better understanding of homosexuals then you do of christians. It is possible to love someone without liking what they believe. My sin, all sin, is equal in the eyes of God, so it doesn't matter the sin. Murder, pride, lust, envy. All the same in the eyes of God. So again, how can I look at myself then better then anyone else?

God creates all people, and he called homosexuality an aboniation. He won't create something that's an abomination to him. So, I didn't choose to be straight, it's how I was made.

Oh, Smellysocks. Glad to see you understand the point of this forum and the level of maturity that it takes. Well done.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

Um, I don't know why the hell you would believe that but...

Unless it has been scientifically proven that homosexuality is genetic, he is entitled to his beliefs.

...and you think this because? You feel like it?

There are several theories: Some say it's genetic, others say it's environmental (pre-natal and post-natal), some say upbringing (i.e. learned behavior), and the rest say choice. It's not conclusive.

Why do you get to be a member of a group that is singled out by our government for special privilages while some other group gets less?

If you're asking what I think you're asking, past discrimination and inequalities as a result of something that cannot be changed. If that doesn't answer the question, then forget it.

I think MrktMkr got tired of explaining himself, time after time after time.

You can say that again!

 

[Ten]

Too bad. I learned in the creation thread that leaving only proves that you admit defeat. If you dont' stand up for yourself, who will?

Leaving a thread that runs circles around itself inside a videogame-based forum is not admitting defeat. I will continue my fight through other, more effective mediums.

 

[Swift]

Leaving a thread that runs circles around itself inside a videogame-based forum is not admitting defeat. I will continue my fight through other, more effective mediums.

interesting. Oh well, later.

 

[Pako]

Oh, and I suppose the blacks wanted freedom just because they couldn't have it either?

You're not serious are you?

Come on already. We're not talking about a suppressed race here. I've seen you guys trying to ride on the backs of races that earned their rights to freedom. Don't start using their lives as trivial banter. Show them more respect than that. Please quite comparing Homosexuals to animals that have a inbreed instinct to hump anything that moves...as humans we were given free will to do as we choose. We choose right or wrong and we live and die by those choices. No one makes you do anything. I'm choosing to write this right now....even though my wife says, "why do you keep replying to that thread?". I choose to be faithful to my wife and I choose to be heterosexual. If I choose to divorce my wife, I am also living with those consequences, fair or not. We live by our lifestyles.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

You're not serious are you?

Come on already. We're not talking about a suppressed race here. I've seen you guys trying to ride on the backs of races that earned their rights to freedom. Don't start using their lives as trivial banter. Show them more respect than that.

Thank you. Also, even if some homosexuals choose the lifestyle, it's just that -- a choice (for some). Blacks do not choose the color of their skin. Not to mention the fact that skin color is more obvious than sexual orientation -- the two do not compare.

 

[emad]

[Hopping back in from lurker status]

On the topic of PS asking whether or not you chose to be straight, I want you guys to think on this for a moment:

Back when you were in elementary/middle school, you, and every other male child got a few erections on occasion and at random times. Did you choose what gave you that stiffy? Or did it come naturally? When you grew older and into high school and started going through puberty. Did you choose which people you had the hots for? It just came naturally, didn't it? How about when you first started surfing the web for porno? I'm SURE you came across some of the weirdest and kinkiest stuff on the 'net in the pursuit for porno. I'm also quite sure that a small percentage of those random and strange fetishes got you stiff, right? Whether that be obese women, anal intercourse, S&M, shleibe films, whatever. People get hot by some of those fetishes. They don't know why. It just comes to them.

Same thing for homosexuality (sorry if I'm wrong Ten). You don't choose what gets you hard. It just comes naturally. Whether that's caused by the childhood environment or not is debatable, but in the end, the "decision" (I don't mean to call it a choice, I just can't think of a better term) comes to you naturally. Nothing is going to change what your sexual preferences are.

As humans, we're quite superficial. We take a lot of things into consideration, even when we're in love. If you personally don't find the person you're with attractive, chances are that it won't go past being just friends. Now, if 2 men or 2 women are in love, what's wrong with allowing them to have their legal union? After all, athiests "technically" don't get married, they go into a legal union with eachother. If a heterosexual couple can have their legal union, but you blatantly want to deny that right to homosexuals, you are discriminating against them. Simple as that.

This is all coming from a Muslim. Islam holds the same view on homosexuality as christians do. Islam too believes that homosexuals aren't technically a part of our religion. On that note though, if they're not muslims or christians, why are you trying to deny them their rights? Why do you choose to set your religion's standards on everyone that's not Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or whatever it is you follow?

If I can look past my religion and see that this is pure discrimination against people with different beliefs, values, and preferences then why can't YOU see past it?

 

[HondaKid86]

I will not condone, nor bend my morals just so homosexuals can save a few bucks on their tax return.

Is that all your marriage means to you?

If not, why would mine be any different?

You didn't see the multiple times that Hondakid talked about getting with my wife? how is that not incredibly condesending and insulting?

Insulting? Sure. Condescending? No... you mustn't understand the meaning of that word (you should never use words that you can't spell). But for my own convenience, I'll bill those "offers" as a measure of goodwill. You want proof that being gay isn't a choice? Take off my pants, put the choicest piece of female meat in front of me, and then witness my lack of a below-the-belt reaction firsthand. If that doesn't convince you, get said choice female meat to physically solicit a reaction -- the lack of results will surprise you for sure.

 

[Arwin]

I'd still like to see this answered:

Well, of course not. I think it's wrong for gay people to raise children. Period.

Ok, so you're very clearly bigoted there, and applying your Christian values selectively to matters beyond your concern, if for instance these two gay people are not Christians. Not to mention the fact that you assume a same sex marriage involves people who love each other. Not historically something all that self-explanatory, considering that marriages used to be arranged pretty much universally.

Now, what if they were two straight guys?

Although I have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriage. I am unsure about a gay couple raising children. Nothing to do with ethics or religion, I just think that it may be confusing for the child.

I suppose you're also against single parent families? Are you against them up to the point where you think they should be forbidden by law? What if a single mother moves in with her sister, to save costs? Are you against two single but straight mothers joining forces and raising children together? Single but straight fathers? All too confusing? It has been shown again and again that gaydom isn't inheritable, neither through nurture nor through nature. If that were so, after all, gaydom wouldn't exist in the first place.

You think it may be confusing for the child, but seriously, how well have you thought that through, really?

 

[vladimir]

2) you can tell me homosexuality isn't a choice, but can you prove it?

i told you the FACTS you dozens of times, as did others here, but you NEVER responded to it..

on the contrary, you haven't even given us one single reason...

how is being homosexual not a choice? i am interested to see your response

if you were so greatly interested, you would go back about 20 pages and read what i, ten, hondakid86, famine, duke and others have written millions of times...

i just see a lot of big differences between heterosexual and homosexual lifestyles for homosexuality to NOT be a choice

sexuality is NO lifestyle!

i'm just a downhilling, metal-listening, socialist, lazy petrolhead who happens to suck c o c k occasionally.

^

Don't tell me you want to change the meaning of Husband and Wife? The Wife is the one that's subserviant to the Husband? Careful there.....

WHY CAN THE DEFINITION "BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN" NOT BE CHANGED?

why can't it be "between a man and a woman, a man and a man or a woman and a women"? between husband and wife or husband and husband or wife and wife.

 

[ledhed]

There are several theories: Some say it's genetic, others say it's environmental (pre-natal and post-natal), some say upbringing (i.e. learned behavior), and the rest say choice. It's not conclusive.

Its conclusive thats its a combination off all of the above .
I must have posted 4 or 5 links out of the thousands that address it....guess you did not read them because they fit pre - concieved notions.
The bottom line is it is unlawfull and its not right to discriminate against a group of people because of sexual orientation. all Americans deserve equal protection and equal rights under the law. Keep religion out of it. It has no place in our government. You want religion go to Church.

 

[HondaKid86]

i'm just a downhilling, metal-listening, socialist, lazy petrolhead who happens to suck c o c k occasionally.

Know of another one of you in Texas by any chance?

 

[Famine]

Swift? XVII?

Where does God stand (sit, float about ethereally) on the issue of intersex?

Intersex individuals have a mal or female genetic makeup, yet neither or both types of genital. Typically they are castrated soon after birth and given cosmetic surgery to develop a vagina since the penis is almost always absent or microscopic, despite often being genetically male. Individuals may have internalised, undeveloped testicles or undeveloped ovaries. Some, due to chiasma of the Y chromosome, have an XY make up (male), but lack the tdf (testis-determining factor) gene so develop poorly differentiated ovaries and a "pouch" vagina with no uterus. Legend has it that Jamie Lee Curtis is amongst their numbers.

Is it wrong for two genetically male people to marry, despite one of them having had involuntary surgery in their infancy to resemble a female AND BEING REGISTERED on the Birth Certificate as female? Is it wrong for two genetically male people to marry, despite one of them resembling a female due to lack of tdf, or androgen insensitivity syndrome? They both enjoy vaginal intercourse even though the vagina has no physical function whatsoever and both parties are XY.

And let's not even mention full-on trans-sexuals...


IS it only the anus God has something against, or do intersex individuals feel his wrath too?

[...]

I'm not talking trans-sexuals. Yet. I'm talking about physically female people who were assigned that gender AT BIRTH due to intersex characteristics, who can never be fully one gender or the other due to, essentially, physical deformity and involuntary surgery upon them. Their genotype and phenotype may or may not match.

Jamie Lee Curtis may well be XY - urban legend is unclear on this. IF she is, does this mean her husband is in a gay marriage and doomed to Hell? For that matter does it mean SHE is in a gay marriage and doomed to Hell?


So far we've determined that, according to Swift, God sees homosexual sex and heterosexual anal sex as a "Sin". JLC and her husband, IF she is XY, have genetic homosexual, but penetrative vaginal sex. Is that a "Sin", or is it only the ass?

[...]

She never developed a penis. She, ASSUMING THE LEGEND TO BE CORRECT is an AIS sufferer. At birth her genitals consisted of:

"Pouch" vagina - can be "normal" length, or totally absent. In any case it just terminates.
Internalised "Streak" testes - basically smears of testicle material inside the body. They will never produce sperm OR testosterone.

That's it. No ovaries, no uterus, no penis, no nothing. And genetically XY. So, she has a hole, some nuts (which don't work) and a Y-chromosome. That's male. Surgery removes the likely-site-of-cancer streak testes and may or may not elongate the vagina - this is done VERY early on.


So, her XY husband is having "normal" sex with an XY person who once had testes and has an artificial vagina. Sin or not? If you fancied her, would you be harbouring homosexual feelings or not?


Nobody answered the question about oral sex either - is THAT sinful?

[...]

Moving on, what about trans-sexuals, who believe they have been born into the wrong gender body? Some would say THAT is a birth defect. Some might say homosexuality is a birth defect (although not the words I'd choose)...

I would particularly like to hear Swift's and XVII's views on this.

 

[Duke]

Possibly, but moderators are supposed to be the role models of GTP, and yes I've seen both the admins redline or start pushing the limits if you know what I mean, but they were still pushin' it. I just fear them a bit a more .


I find that to be irrelevant because your Moderator status follows you wherever you go, and when people see "Swift", "moderator" and something bad, they don't crae whether or not it's in the GT4 drifting forum.

No one currently on the moderation staff has any problem whatsoever separating their posts and opinions here from their professional capacity as moderators.

Your point is taken that we are supposed "role models" but mostly that has to do with how we deal with trouble and troublemakers. We are people too and we have strong feelings to express in the appropriate place - here.

You've never seen anyone banned for their opinions - only for the forms in which they choose to express it.

 

[vladimir]

Know of another one of you in Texas by any chance?

if i did, i would suggest him to leave texas as soon as possible.

 

[Delirious]

honestly famine, ive never encountered anyone outside of homosexual or heterosexual and i probably wouldnt know what to do until i encountered the individual for myself and got to know them and their personality

 

[Danoff]

Come on already. We're not talking about a suppressed race here. I've seen you guys trying to ride on the backs of races that earned their rights to freedom. Don't start using their lives as trivial banter.

We're talking about a lifestyle that is discriminated against - quite comparable to a law forbidding Christians to marry. Christianity is a lifestyle like homosexuality, satan worshipping, or heterosexuality. The government should not single out lifestyles and play favorites.

Show them more respect than that. Please quite comparing Homosexuals to animals that have a inbreed instinct to hump anything that moves...as humans we were given free will to do as we choose.

Who compared homosexuals to other species of animal?? I was simply responding to this notion that homosexuality isn't natural and I pointed out that it is found in nature among animals.

Now, homosexuals ARE in fact animals - as are heterosexuals. You are an animal (you're classified as one), I am also an animal. We're in the kingdom animalia, phylum Chordata, Subphylum Vertebrata, Class Mammalia, Order Primates, Family Hominidae, Genus Homo (ironic), Species sapiens.

We choose right or wrong and we live and die by those choices. No one makes you do anything. I'm choosing to write this right now....even though my wife says, "why do you keep replying to that thread?". I choose to be faithful to my wife and I choose to be heterosexual. If I choose to divorce my wife, I am also living with those consequences, fair or not. We live by our lifestyles.

Correct, we live by our lifestyles - everything to a certain extent is a choice (unless you believe that God's will govern's your life), but government should not discriminate among its citizens based on choices that they make that do not violate the rights of others. Equal protection under the law. It is not government's place to discriminate against its taxpayers - whether that be because of race, gender, religion, or sexuality.

 

[Famine]

honestly famine, ive never encountered anyone outside of homosexual or heterosexual and i probably wouldnt know what to do until i encountered the individual for myself and got to know them and their personality

But yet it's okay to decry ALL homosexuals as "sinners"?

 

[Swift]

But yet it's okay to decry ALL homosexuals as "sinners"?

Yep, it sure is. Why? Because I'm a sinner and need to be saved just as much as a homosexual.

Famine, your arguments tempt the very foundation of what we believe in. That's cool, but when we give you answers, you simply reject them. We give you answers that come from the Bible and it's just bleh to you.

Ledhed, I did read your links. And they are not conclusive. They talk about combinations of things and this and that. Hey, that's fine, it just proves my point that much more.

HondaKid. That was an extremely weak example. I could very easily train myself to not get an erection when staring at a beautiful girl. It's not that hard, just takes some discipline.

Arwin, if two straight guys were rasing a child they would be brothers, cousins or at least good friends. But NOT in a romantic relationship. So, yeah, I've seen that before and don't have a problem with it.

 

[Famine]

Famine, your arguments tempt the very foundation of what we believe in. That's cool, but when we give you answers, you simply reject them. We give you answers that come from the Bible and it's just bleh to you.

Referring to a book to prove the contents of the same book is not "answers".

So, in summary...

Heterosexual sex is not sinful, as long as it's not oral, anal or onanatory in nature.
Homosexuality IS sinful, even if no sex takes place.
Intersex is ignored because it's too difficult to give answers to and, despite having existed for as long as humans have, is not made mention of in the Bible.


Given the example of Jamie Lee Curtis above - or taking any AIS sufferer as described, should the urban legend prove untrue - is it sinful for a heterosexual man to have sex/be married to an AIS individual who is genetically male?

Yes or no would suffice.

 

[Swift]

Referring to a book to prove the contents of the same book is not "answers".

So, in summary...

Heterosexual sex is not sinful, as long as it's not oral, anal or onanatory in nature.
Homosexuality IS sinful, even if no sex takes place.
Intersex is ignored because it's too difficult to give answers to and, despite having existed for as long as humans have, is not made mention of in the Bible.


Given the example of Jamie Lee Curtis above - or taking any AIS sufferer as described, should the urban legend prove untrue - is it sinful for a heterosexual man to have sex/be married to an AIS individual who is genetically male?

Yes or no would suffice.

Actually, yes it is because it doesn't contratict itself. Unlike so many different reports for many different doctors on the subject.

Homosexuality is to KNOWINGLY engage in a same sex relationship. Obviously, if someone is born male but turned into a female and they don't have any clue about it. That's fine.

 

[PS]

Too bad. I learned in the creation thread that leaving only proves that you admit defeat. If you dont' stand up for yourself, who will?


You didn't see the multiple times that Hondakid talked about getting with my wife? how is that not incredibly condesending and insulting?

So you stand up to me because I'm a mod, but if I was say, Duke, you wouldn't be so bold? What kind of attitude is that?

Because Duke and I tend to see eye-to-eye. Even if I do piss him off now and then

Also, you keep asking me to stop saying "do you get it?" But the fact of the matter is you simply don't understand christianity.

OOOOH, CHRISTIANITY. I'm sorry for not knowing what "it" was, for the past 349857084651349858045 posts you were making a point of. It's surprising how vague "it" can be sometimes. Isn't it?

I have a better understanding of homosexuals then you do of christians. It is possible to love someone without liking what they believe. My sin, all sin, is equal in the eyes of God, so it doesn't matter the sin. Murder, pride, lust, envy. All the same in the eyes of God. So again, how can I look at myself then better then anyone else?

You weren't trying to make yourself look good, you were trying to make me look bumb with the whole "you don't get it" nonsense.

God creates all people, and he called homosexuality an aboniation.

My parents created me, and I don't care what he calls an abomination, it doesn't make it right. George Bush is president, but is it right for him to go on weekly bombing campaigns?

He won't create something that's an abomination to him.

How do you know? Christianity is full of hypocrisy.
So, I didn't choose to be straight, it's how I was made.

Actually you were made from some proteins, fluids, and cells that grew inside a womb. Unless you're a test tube baby. But it's still remarkably close.

So, in summary...

Heterosexual sex is not sinful, as long as it's not oral, anal or onanatory in nature.
Homosexuality IS sinful, even if no sex takes place.
Intersex is ignored because it's too difficult to give answers to and, despite having existed for as long as humans have, is not made mention of in the Bible.

Thank you Famine. Told you it was hypocritical.