Gay Marriage

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Swift
Actually, yes it is because it doesn't contratict itself. Unlike so many different reports for many different doctors on the subject.
Homosexuality is to KNOWINGLY engage in a same sex relationship. Obviously, if someone is born male but turned into a female and they don't have any clue about it. That's fine.

What the hell? As opposed to NOT knowingly engage in a same sex relationship?

And I know I would sure notice myself turning into a woman. But it's fine if youre attracted to men, then turn into a woman, and are still attracted to men? Even though you're still technically a male? OR what if you're born male, attracted to females, and then turn into a female? Is that ok because you were originally a male?

And just so you know, intersex is not turning into a different sex, it's being born with both genitalia.
 
Swift
Actually, yes it is because it doesn't contratict itself. Unlike so many different reports for many different doctors on the subject.

Homosexuality is to KNOWINGLY engage in a same sex relationship. Obviously, if someone is born male but turned into a female and they don't have any clue about it. That's fine.

Spot the Dog doesn't contradict itself either. I wouldn't use it as a reference tool though.


The clue comes round about puberty. Which, unless you live in Bangladesh, is before you get married.

It's also on the medical records and the child needs constant treatment through to the age of 9 from birth.


Also, "intersex" is precisely that. Not "born male but turned into a female", but inter sex. They do not have complete characteristics of either gender. There are many different levels of intersex, but none are capable of reproducing. Someone earlier remarked that sex without the possibility of procreation is sinful...



Continuing a theme WHY is it that "unknowing" transgenders are free of sexual sin, but "knowing" transgenders (trans-sexuals) and homosexuals are guilty of sexual sin?
 
PS
Actually you were made from some proteins, fluids, and cells that grew inside a womb. Unless you're a test tube baby. But it's still remarkably close.



Thank you Famine. Told you it was hypocritical.

I have a question. Do you all think that all cops are crooked? Do you think that all doctors are incompetent even though some are? Do you think that all lawyers are heartless and don't care about right and wrong even though it's true that some do?

If not, then why do you judge an entire faith by what you here in the news about priests molesting children? That's just ludicrous. Almost nobody here even has a clue where the christians in this thread are coming from. You all seem to think that we bow to the pope, can't wait to confess to the priest and go out and get drunk, do drugs, have sex and will just repent on our death bed and be saved. That's simply not the case.

Unfortunately, christianity has been split into many different sects. this is really a shame as we're all after the same goal. But just because a certain section of christians have become hypocritical doesn't mean that the faith is invalid or that all christrians are the same. That would be like saying all white people are racits because of the KKK and all black people are gang members because of the crips and bloods. It's a huge generalization that simply needs to stop.
 
Swift
I have a question. Do you all think that all cops are crooked? Do you think that all doctors are incompetent even though some are? Do you think that all lawyers are heartless and don't care about right and wrong even though it's true that some do?

But just because a certain section of christians have become hypocritical doesn't mean that the faith is invalid or that all christrians are the same. That would be like saying all white people are racits because of the KKK and all black people are gang members because of the crips and bloods. It's a huge generalization that simply needs to stop.
But the huge generalization that all homosexuals should not be allowed to marry and adopt children (for the sake of the children's protection) is perfectly OK with you guys, apparently.
 
PS
Once again, proving that Christianity is hypocritical.

I'm really getting tired of you insulting me. You seriously need to stop, now.

Duke, That's not my basis against homosexual marriage. But it is one of my points.
 
Duke
But the huge generalization that all homosexuals should not be allowed to marry and adopt children (for the sake of the children's protection) is perfectly OK with you guys, apparently.

Unless they don't know they're homosexuals. Although presumably the kids would still have two "daddies"..

Swift
Arwin, if two straight guys were rasing a child they would be brothers, cousins or at least good friends.

Swift
I'm really getting tired of you insulting me. You seriously need to stop, now.

He said "Christianity", not "Christians". Hate the sin (Christianity), not the sinner (a Christian), remember?
 
Famine
Unless they don't know they're homosexuals. Although presumably the kids would still have two "daddies"..

Let me ask you something...if you do something, like go to the baseball field and you parents never told you that you couldn't, wouldn't they be wrong in punishing you? Now, after you were told and had knowledge of it, then you should be punished for disobeying them. How can God punish you if you don't know the rules?

Famine
He said "Christianity", not "Christians". Hate the sin (Christianity), not the sinner (a Christian), remember?

You are most likely mature enough to understand that concept. I'm seriously doubting that PS is.
 
Swift
Let me ask you something...if you do something, like go to the baseball field and you parents never told you that you couldn't, wouldn't they be wrong in punishing you? Now, after you were told and had knowledge of it, then you should be punished for disobeying them. How can God punish you if you don't know the rules?
But what if he doesn't worship our God? Based on our respective religions, the person is in the wrong... but so what? They're not following your religion. Why must you impose standards on them?
 
Swift
Yep, it sure is. Why? Because I'm a sinner and need to be saved just as much as a homosexual.

That's ok, I'm sure in about 300-400 years (or who knows only 50), some of the Christian leaders (if Christianity still exists, that is) will apologize for your current behavior. And then everything will be right and forgotten. But you forfet that original sin is a concept invented to uphold the strength of the Roman Catholic Church, and nothing else. If you believe otherwise, you deny the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, or claim that his sacrifice is no longer valid and a new saviour is needed. But I don't think you believe in a second coming, as it is not spoken of in the Bible.

Arwin, if two straight guys were rasing a child they would be brothers, cousins or at least good friends. But NOT in a romantic relationship. So, yeah, I've seen that before and don't have a problem with it.

So, basically, you are not against Same Sex Marriage, so long as it only pertains to the legal aspects of it (guardianship, entitlement to pensions, inheritance - the tax cuts are the least of them). As soon as, however, same sex romance is involved, it is no longer allowed. It is sinful behaviour that must never be accepted by society and must never act as a rolemodel to children, because although it is proven you cannot catch homosexuality, it may lead to further acceptance of the sinful behavior.

Except that you have no right to impose such limitations on others, just as we have no rights to force you to have sex with men only, and only oral. This is not a joke, Swift, I'm being serious. Jews or Muslims have no right to prevent others from eating pork, and Buddhists have no right to prohibit us from eating steak. That's the way a just society in which its people are free functions.

In fact, in my opinion, the only people who forfeit those rights are those who try to cross their boundaries and force their beliefs onto others, thus severely limiting their freedom. The only neutral standard by which such limitations can validly be imposed is by showing that the freedom of some seriously impedes the freedom of others. Homosexuality is not such an issue.

Homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomenon in species that have an overabundant population, a natural way of curbing the procreation drive, by creating caring members of society who are not themselves primarily interested in procreating, by having their sexual desires redirected. (It is not a coincidence that homosexuality always becomes most prominent at the peaks of civilisation).

You know perfectly well that the Bible wasn't written by God - few modern Christians are dense enough to believe that - and you know all about human fallibility. Take it from this perfectly straight guy with high moral standards that if you open both your heart and your mind to this subject, you will see the error quite soon and quite clear.

This is not different from the repression based on the color of your skin (Pako et al take note), or repession of Protestantism by Catholicism and vice versa. The only difference is that this injustice has been allowed to exist in our society for much longer than either, and that the injustice doesn't seem equally harsh because we are discussing it in relatively civil times in this society, where outright slaughter is thankfully looked down upon (though beatings still occur, because some children of so-called Christians are still taught that gays are sinners, and many still live in fear of being discovered and then losing their job, social status, and so on).

I hope, Swift, that you will understand that I am just a member of society who takes the love thy neighbour part seriously, without believing in any form of reward in the afterlife. I would (and do) fight for your right to believe in exactly the same way. But the boundaries of freedom must be guarded with care - if one neighbour chooses to burn his crop, it is his or her choice and freedom to do so, but if this fire burns down the crop of others, a line must be drawn.
 
ledhed
Its conclusive thats its a combination off all of the above .
I must have posted 4 or 5 links out of the thousands that address it....guess you did not read them because they fit pre - concieved notions.
The bottom line is it is unlawfull and its not right to discriminate against a group of people because of sexual orientation. all Americans deserve equal protection and equal rights under the law. Keep religion out of it. It has no place in our government. You want religion go to Church.

What part of my post (that you quoted, of course) said anything about religion? I intentionally left religion out of that post -- why are you bringing it back up again? :crazy:

Anyway...

One theory is that it could be a combination of the factors -- that does not make it fact.
 
Swift
Let me ask you something...if you do something, like go to the baseball field and you parents never told you that you couldn't, wouldn't they be wrong in punishing you? Now, after you were told and had knowledge of it, then you should be punished for disobeying them. How can God punish you if you don't know the rules?

Leviticus (KJV)...

5:15
If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering.
5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
5:17
And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

Looks like ignorance is no excuse, in the eyes of God.


Swift
How can God punish you if you don't know the rules?
 
Swift
I'm really getting tired of you insulting me. You seriously need to stop, now.

Duke, That's not my basis against homosexual marriage. But it is one of my points.

I wasn't insulting you (and I realize what you're dling by this saying this, btw), I was bringing you back to the point that Christianity is hypocritical (which is likely why the US gov't is also full of hypocrisy) and can not be relied on for every little bit of guidance and moral fibre.
 
Arwin
That's ok, I'm sure in about 300-400 years (or who knows only 50), some of the Christian leaders (if Christianity still exists, that is) will apologize for your current behavior. And then everything will be right and forgotten. But you forfet that original sin is a concept invented to uphold the strength of the Roman Catholic Church, and nothing else. If you believe otherwise, you deny the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, or claim that his sacrifice is no longer valid and a new saviour is needed. But I don't think you believe in a second coming, as it is not spoken of in the Bible.

To be honest. I was actually very impressed with what you said until you talked about the second coming. The second coming is talked about very much by Jesus himself. Look at Matthew chapter 25 for starters.

Famine
Leviticus (KJV)...

5:15
If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering.
5:16
And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
5:17
And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

Looks like ignorance is no excuse, in the eyes of God.

These rules were given to the Hebrews by Moses. And passed down to the various leaders. So, if they did something in ignorance in the holy things, they had to really try. In fact, two of Aaron's sons were killed for being ignorant of the Holy things of God. Even though they new about it very much since there father was the first high priest of Israel.

PS
I wasn't insulting you (and I realize what you're dling by this saying this, btw), I was bringing you back to the point that Christianity is hypocritical (which is likely why the US gov't is also full of hypocrisy) and can not be relied on for every little bit of guidance and moral fibre.

Christianity is in no way hypocritcal. Now, some people's application of it might be. But that doesn't mean that the faith itself is unsound. Just like people shoot other people with guns or drive recklessly. It doesn't mean that guns are evil and cars shouldn't exist. It means that certain people don't understand such things.
 
Swift
Christianity is in no way hypocritcal. Now, some people's application of it might be. But that doesn't mean that the faith itself is unsound. Just like people shoot other people with guns or drive recklessly. It doesn't mean that guns are evil and cars shouldn't exist. It means that certain people don't understand such things.

It would be a lot easier to understand something if it made sense, you know.
 
PS
It would be a lot easier to understand something if it made sense, you know.

Ok, so I'm supposed to put time and effort into understanding homosexuality, but you go by assumptions on christianity and it's cool?
 
Homosexuality hasn't been rewritten, re-phrased, revised, and underanalyzed for 2000 years, Christianity has. Big difference.
 
PS
Homosexuality hasn't been rewritten, re-phrased, revised, and underanalyzed for 2000 years, Christianity has. Big difference.

Yeah, it's been hidden and kept "in the closet" for a few millenia.
 
Christianity is in no way hypocritcal. Now, some people's application of it might be. But that doesn't mean that the faith itself is unsound. Just like people shoot other people with guns or drive recklessly. It doesn't mean that guns are evil and cars shouldn't exist. It means that certain people don't understand such things.

In the bible it says thou shalt not kill, but an eye for an eye. So if someone kills my mom I should turn around and kill his mom?
 
BlazinXtreme
In the bible it says thou shalt not kill, but an eye for an eye. So if someone kills my mom I should turn around and kill his mom?

Man, people love to just isolate scriptures. Ok, If you kill someone, you're to be put to death, not your parents. So if someone murders your mom, they should be put to death.
 
Swift
To be honest. I was actually very impressed with what you said until you talked about the second coming. The second coming is talked about very much by Jesus himself. Look at Matthew chapter 25 for starters.

Ok, I'm sorry about that. I've studied the Bible and the Koran but the Bible was a while ago. I have the King James Version in English here though (bear in mind that it's not my native language), I'll look the verses up, but my point was that the second coming wouldn't be intended as a sacrifice to wash away the sins of man and give them, as it were, a fresh new start. Looking them up now, Matthew 25 indeed sounds more like a warning not to regress and forget the Commandments:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visitied me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I saw into you, insasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
Right but the Bible is hypocritical, it's why I gave up on religion. But I was giving you an example of how religion is indeed hyprocritical.
 
Swift
Yeah, it's been hidden and kept "in the closet" for a few millenia.
Thanks to repression and hatred, largely by religious intolerance, for that.
 
Yeah, it's been hidden and kept "in the closet" for a few millenia

That's how people of the 50's felt about blacks, that they should be shut up or seperated from the world. Get with the times, things change.
 
BlazinXtreme
That's how people of the 50's felt about blacks, that they should be shut up or seperated from the world. Get with the times, things change.

Skin color is more obvious than sexual orientation. It is not fair to compare the two.
 
Some sexual orientation is pretty easy to figure out. But I see your point, I was merely stating that to discriminate against people really isn't with the times. I mean they did the same thing back in the 50's, and I was saying it pretty much the same thing now.
 
Some sexual orientation is pretty easy to figure out. But I see your point, I was merely stating that to discriminate against people really isn't with the times. I mean they did the same thing back in the 50's, and I was saying it pretty much the same thing now.

I'm not sure that it's not with the times, but it isn't right anyway.
 
BlazinXtreme
That's how people of the 50's felt about blacks, that they should be shut up or seperated from the world. Get with the times, things change.

Well, if they didn't bring us over here in teh first place, they might have a case. :dunce:

But yeah, what brian said. Skin color(that has not bearing on anything) can't be compared to sexual orientation.

Arwin
Ok, I'm sorry about that. I've studied the Bible and the Koran but the Bible was a while ago. I have the King James Version in English here though (bear in mind that it's not my native language), I'll look the verses up, but my point was that the second coming wouldn't be intended as a sacrifice to wash away the sins of man and give them, as it were, a fresh new start. Looking them up now, Matthew 25 indeed sounds more like a warning not to regress and forget the Commandments:

Arwin. I think you're a bit confused as to what the second coming of christ is. It isn't about forgiveness and the cross. When Jesus comes back the second time, he's going to be taking the church up to heaven.
 
MrktMkr1986
Skin color is more obvious than sexual orientation. It is not fair to compare the two.
Some blacks managed passin'. Are you saying that homosexuals should try it too?

Or is it that you just don't care because it's not your turn in the barrel this time?
 
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