Gay Marriage

[Sniffs]

okay, people, I say Jordan himself should lock this thread. even Duke is starting on the Wangst. Earth's mind is made up firm as concrete (pardon the pun, yo), as is that other guy.

this is why I say that in THIS country, it'll never happen, the same way National Health Care will never happen, because just enough people with power don't want it.

I'm cutting myself off at this point to avoid another warning of any sort. you guys make me wanna lecture you like some old man!

 

[Touring Mars]

okay, people, I say Jordan himself should lock this thread. even Duke is starting on the Wangst. Earth's mind is made up firm as concrete (pardon the pun, yo), as is that other guy.

this is why I say that in THIS country, it'll never happen, the same way National Health Care will never happen, because just enough people with power don't want it.

I'm cutting myself off at this point to avoid another warning of any sort. you guys make me wanna lecture you like some old man!

Come on, Sniffs... lock the thread? No way. No matter what the 'majority' thinks, or whatever objections (justifiable or not) there might be, closing the debate is always going to be counterproductive.

 

[niky]

On its present course humanity has no future.

Why even have marriage? Why should a father care about his kids if we're just animals? Why should partners be faithful to eachother? Why force a father to pay child support and take care of his child if we're just animals ?

Animals take care of their young. There are animals that are more "naturally" monogamous than we are. How does being a member of the animal kingdom change our responsibility to raise our children within a loving family?

Tiger Woods wanted to have relations with females other then his wife, hows that a problem if we're just animals? What right does his wife have to not want him to fulfill his desire to be with other women as well as her? Why not let him have unlimited freedom? After all we're just animals, as some claim.

Because he entered into a contract stating he wouldn't.

And if you cant see the fundamental difference between humans and animals I feel sorry for you. I really do.

Humans use fire. Ugh. Ugh.

You know lets just get rid of marriage all together. Let men and women, woman and woman, man and man stay together, have kids, adopt kids, raise them.

If the part in bold actually becomes universal, things would be much better than they are now.

Lets see how that benefits society and helps the family arrangement. You want to bet that familes will be better then they are today with no family arrangement?

What family arrangement? What world do you live in? Kids grow up today knowing no father, two fathers (hetero), two or three fathers that they only see once or twice a week... or two mothers that the see every other month... or no mother... none of which can be blamed on homosexuals.

And you people who think you are so far above the influence of the media and this world, tell me, have school shootings become less shocking to you?

Not homosexual.

Has suicide bombings become less shocking to you?

Incredibly not homosexual. Promise of virgin girls in paradise and all that.

Has people flying planes into buildings become more of a normal thing to you?

That last guy didn't care about virgins in paradise, but he was a perfectly normal heterosexual with a wife and child. Hooray for the good old fashioned values!

If yes, you've been influenced by the media and have been desensitized to corrupt behavior around you. Even I am not immune, but I can catch myself sometimes by at least being aware of the danger and not being so overconfident to think I am immune.

Stranger Danger! Stranger Danger!

In the same way American Idol flaunting sexual deviants like Adam Lambert on stage make you more accustom to such behavior. Lambert dressed up in exotic clothing, paints his eyes, wears tight jeans and other things to look different, cool and appearling. Some find this 'different' look attractive, and when he simulates oral sex with a male band member in the middle of a song they accept it, because they like him. "Oh hes just wild" is the excuse they make.

I don't want my children seeing any simulated oral sex on stage, homo or hetero. Has nothing to do with the issue at hand, because you have guys like this:


Who are obviously not homosexual and are doing much worse.

Of course... I suppose it's better since it's "natural" to hump an underage girl in public.

Oh wait... I'm actually supposed to take care of my children and not expose them to the media without parental guidance? I didn't know that!

You have Lance Bass announcing "I'm Gay!" with a brig grin on the cover of magazines as if its something to be celebrated or in fact "superior" to a hetrosexual life.

Celebrated because you can say it now without being censured.

I have women at work who tell me they would love to hang around gay men because of how they are portrayed as "cool" and more compassionate then straight men on television.

What? Gay men are more compassionate than straight men? Wow! I didn't know that! [/sarcasm]

Home and Garden shows that show homosexual couples helping others to find houses,

Nothing more degenerate than house buying.

queer eye for the straight guy,

A gay show is.... gay? Que horror!

ellen degeners,

DeGeneres.

wanda skyes screaming over the microphone that homosexuality and gay marriage is perfectly fine and anybody who disagrees is close minded.

Sykes. And doesn't she scream everything?

All of this, over time, has made MANY MANY people sub consciously accept homosexuality and gay marriage as a perfectly fine alternative lifestyle.

And here I thought it was only my rich personal experience that made me accept other people as human beings. Damn you Hollywood for doing all of my thinking for me.

Go ahead, lie to yourself and say you haven't been affected in any way. Not knowing or simply ignoring the affect the mass media and mainstream has on you just makes you another drone. Wake up people! This crap has not been for decades, this is new!

New in the media. But then... so are women's rights.

Its at the point now where if you disagree your closed minded or a religious freak.

So define "close-minded".

It takes 10x the courage to step up and speak out on what you believe when its extremely unpopular to do so. I'm going to step up and speak out, and I'm not apologizing.

In the end it doesn't really matter to me, though I feel terribly sorry for the kids who grow up same sex "marriages".

Kids whom you've obviously never talked to or related to in a human way. Every single kid I know of who's grown up in a household with same sex life partners has turned out disappointingly... heterosexual. And normal. Even when one of the same sex partners has been their biological father or mother. The only gay and lesbian kids I know of grew up in traditional households. Go figure.

As I said this world has NO future. The constant break down of morals, the greed, and the breakdown of the economy has led to people like Joseph Stack.

Keep living your life and keep developing your society alienated from God and see which way that takes this country.

Go ahead, rip my post apart line by line, try to prove me wrong. Go ahead, waste your time. Nothing will change the fact that America and the whole world is in the toilet right now, and your gay marriage is going to screw family life and society up even further.

I won't disagree about the world being in the toilet. But gay marriage is hardly the worst thing to have happened to the upbringing of kids since time began. I think that would either be petty divorce or abusive parents.

Its going to get to the point to where God intervenes, I'm sure that point is extremely close now, and when he does I pray I am on his side.

"Love thy neighbor" is a sure way to do that, isn't it?

 

[tyl0r_r]

If gay marriage were allowed:

If you're not gay, you certainly wouldn't have to marry another member of your sex. You would be free and welcome to marry a member of the opposite sex.

If you are gay, you would be getting the same civil rights as heterosexuals and a specific manifestation of discrimination would end.

I must be missing something as it seems that simple to me, yet there are 94 pages here! !

The only reason I see to be against gay marriage is if homosexuality is against your moral code AND you feel others need to follow your moral code. They don't. They just need to follow the laws, and the laws need to be just and equal for all citizens. That is why it needs to be a law that gay marriage is allowed, as it will not negatively affect anyone but will positively affect many. I hate to be utilitarian, but in this case nobody gets hurt so it's really alright. The only case I see is one of needing to enforce your own morality on others, and this is a stance I will argue against forever, and it is one that does not concern sexuality. If there is a stance I am missing, please fill me in!

 

[Touring Mars]

niky, although your point is totally justified and fully understood, I have no doubt at all that we don't need such a graphic illustration of your point, however justified it is, hence I've taken that link down, and I hope you can appreciate why. We've got to draw the line somewhere, and I reckon that the video you linked to, however illustrative of your point it may have been, was 'surplus to requirements'...

 

[niky]

niky, although your point is totally justified and fully understood, I have no doubt at all that we don't need such a graphic illustration of your point, however justified it is, hence I've taken that link down, and I hope you can appreciate why. We've got to draw the line somewhere, and I reckon that the video you linked to, however illustrative of your point it may have been, was 'surplus to requirements'...

Thought it would be within the AUP since it passed Youtube's strict censors, but I understand. 👍 (Like I said... I certainly wouldn't want to expose my own kids to that... )

 

[Boffin]

On its present course humanity has no future.

Ermmm. You know the people wanting same sex marriages are in quite a minority, don't you know. And even wih that, gay people will almost never marry someone of the opposite sex just to have a child.

Why even have marriage? Why should a father care about his kids if we're just animals? Why should partners be faithful to eachother? Why force a father to pay child support and take care of his child if we're just animals ?

Because animals care for their young perhaps? Sure, some get born and are left to fend for themselves, but there are heaps that raise their young and get very teritorial when others come to close.

Tiger Woods wanted to have relations with females other then his wife, hows that a problem if we're just animals? What right does his wife have to not want him to fulfill his desire to be with other women as well as her? Why not let him have unlimited freedom? After all we're just animals, as some claim.

Because he made a promise, in a language that others of his species can understand, that he wouldn't.

And if you cant see the fundamental difference between humans and animals I feel sorry for you. I really do.

What - all 2% DNA difference between man and monkey? We are a living organism that moves under our own will. We have brains, just like every other animal, and we are bound to the same set of physics as an animal. We just got lucky that we ae so damn smart to build stuff, and to realise that sex can be had for pleasure as wellas for mating (two other species who also cottoned on to that are the monkeys and dolphins - the two being widel regarded as the smartest of the other species). The most dangerous species of animal in the world is the human (thats right, we have a name, just like an animal - dolphin, eagle, horse etc) who uses the stuff we have built, or have to hand, to positively clobber any friggin life form we want to - but because we have also developed a kindness to not kill them, as we don't need too, because we can eat both plant and animal, and we usually get the meat from a butcher because we are squeemish.

You know lets just get rid of marriage all together. Let men and women, woman and woman, man and man stay together, have kids, adopt kids, raise them.

Cool story, bro. I'm a bastard, and my (hetro) parents love each other, and my brother and I very much. You can bet your sweet ass they love each as much as a married couple, too. I'd almost go so far to say that having a non married set of parents means there's less tension. If one of my parents sees someone else they like (not really likely, if you meet them), sure, they could go for them, but they don't, for the sake of the family. The matter of adultry (but probably cheating) and matters that come with marriage are non existant, and that means there isn't any sourness against partner because its all for the family, and as a result, we are a really close knit family.

Lets see how that benefits society and helps the family arrangement. You want to bet that familes will be better then they are today with no family arrangement?

Come to my house. You'll enjoy yourself. Eating is done together, and many laughs come from the table. iTs a real friendly environment.

You should know that the friction of a family doen't come from marriage status, more the people and happenings in a family.

And you people who think you are so far above the influence of the media and this world, tell me, have school shootings become less shocking to you? Has suicide bombings become less shocking to you? Has people flying planes into buildings become more of a normal thing to you? If yes, you've been influenced by the media and have been desensitized to corrupt behavior around you. Even I am not immune, but I can catch myself sometimes by at least being aware of the danger and not being so overconfident to think I am immune.

The media doen't come into it. I have based my ideas around common sense, and an understanding of needs of a homosexual.

In the same way American Idol flaunting sexual deviants like Adam Lambert on stage make you more accustom to such behavior. Lambert dressed up in exotic clothing, paints his eyes, wears tight jeans and other things to look different, cool and appearling. Some find this 'different' look attractive, and when he simulates oral sex with a male band member in the middle of a song they accept it, because they like him. "Oh hes just wild" is the excuse they make. You have Lance Bass announcing "I'm Gay!" with a brig grin on the cover of magazines as if its something to be celebrated or in fact "superior" to a hetrosexual life. I have women at work who tell me they would love to hang around gay men because of how they are portrayed as "cool" and more compassionate then straight men on television. Home and Garden shows that show homosexual couples helping others to find houses, queer eye for the straight guy, ellen degeners, wanda skyes screaming over the microphone that homosexuality and gay marriage is perfectly fine and anybody who disagrees is close minded. All of this, over time, has made MANY MANY people sub consciously accept homosexuality and gay marriage as a perfectly fine alternative lifestyle. Go ahead, lie to yourself and say you haven't been affected in any way. Not knowing or simply ignoring the affect the mass media and mainstream has on you just makes you another drone. Wake up people! This crap has not been for decades, this is new!

Hahahahahaha!

Its at the point now where if you disagree your closed minded or a religious freak.

We are the ones who are excepting it. You are the one who's saying its not right. A real open minded person would say incest is good, too.
And religion doesn't like same sex marriages.

It takes 10x the courage to step up and speak out on what you believe when its extremely unpopular to do so. I'm going to step up and speak out, and I'm not apologizing.

Every one is entitled to their own opinion. But you must see that you are in a minority to us, so ifs not very likely that you are right. Thats not to say you are wrong though, but I personally disagree with you point of view.

In the end it doesn't really matter to me, though I feel terribly sorry for the kids who grow up same sex "marriages".

You should lose any sleep. They get the same as everybody else. You can't just teach someone to be gay, it comes from personal preferance. I'm sure some gay people, who are constantly bullied by pricks, would go to a "how to be straight" class if there was one.

As I said this world has NO future. The constant break down of morals, the greed, and the breakdown of the economy has led to people like Joseph Stack.

Low morals mean you have an unhappy life. If you think that gay marriage is wrong, I'd hate to see what you'd turn out like when your 80, being baffled by the crazes of the youths at the time.

Keep living your life and keep developing your society alienated from God and see which way that takes this country.

Oh, is it confined to America now, is it? Everone else can come to Australia. We are a rational, realistic, open bunch.

Go ahead, rip my post apart line by line, try to prove me wrong. Go ahead, waste your time. Nothing will change the fact that America and the whole world is in the toilet right now, and your gay marriage is going to screw family life and society up even further.

I found it quite easy to do so.

Its going to get to the point to where God intervenes, I'm sure that point is extremely close now, and when he does I pray I am on his side.

So tell me. Are you saying God is against gay marriage and everyone who is for it, or are you against people who want a gay marriage?

Oh, and I'm a Christian, by the way.

 

[Smallhorses]

I have several questions for Earth.

Why is a marriage only "natural" if it's sought between man & woman to procreate?

What happens if there is no procreation in the marriage?
Does it then matter whether it's between 2 men, 2 women or one of each who simply don't want kids or can't have them?

I've been married 7 years to a beautiful wife, but we've no intention of procreating.
Does this make us "unnatural"? And if not, is it only because we're heterosexual rather than homosexual?

Not in my book, we're simply exercising the realms of human conciousness to override the genetic drive and the fruits of human invention such as contraceptives to ensure that we're able to enjoy the pleasures of one another without creating an unwanted life - something which Earth is claiming to be a prime motivation of being gay, and equally something (without the contraceptives obviously ) that other species such as dolphins and chimps are proven to do.

You might as well go back to trying to force left-handed kids to be right handed. It's a stupid, outdated and outmoded concept based on bogus views from a supposed right-minded authority, i.e. God & The Church.

Ask yourself this: Where do homosexuals come from in the first place? Are they born of homosexual couples? No, that's clearly not possible (in the case of male couples and has only been made possible by artificial means in the relatively recent past for women) so it's children of heterosexual couplings (you will need both a sperm & an egg) that have turned out to be homosexual.
Is this because they're rebelling against their parent's "oppressive" heterosexuality? Nope. It's because regardless of their parent's sexuality they're genetically predisposed to attraction to people of the same sex.

What's worrying is that with your ingrained religious beliefs, and the rejection of the concept that there might be anything other than God behind anything that happens in the Universe, you could conceivably, however vehement your opposition to homosexuality is, conceive and raise a homosexual child yourself.

It won't matter how much you or your wife rant, rave and scream Jehovah or Sodom & Gomorrah at them, if the genetic mechanics behind their makeup has made them something you don't want them to be.
Nature vs. Nurture.

Additionally, if this does happen and you spend you life trying to teach your child to be something they're not, how does this in any way you justify it, God, Bible or whatever, still make you a better parent just because your wife is female than 2 men or 2 women raising a male child who'd say "Hey, it turns out you're straight & like girls! That's great!" or "So you're gay like us too? That's great!"
Which child will turn out better? The one who's been shown support regardless of their sexuality and that of their parents, or the one who's been shown bitterness and resentment (and probably harbours similar feelings towards their parents) because they simply cannot be something that their closed minded parents want them to be?

Forgetting God is like forgetting to read the instruction manual to your life and body, you can get away without doing it but be warned!

Nope, embracing God & Biblical teachings is like being given an ill-conceived fictional instruction manual that's been translated via Chinese whispers through 4 different languages, interpreted, misinterpreted and somehow then held as true by many millions of folks who've been brainwashed to use it as a reason & justification for "everything" whilst choosing to ignore the facts, developments and real-life scenarios that actually shape the world around them, as that would actually require some effort, understanding and thought.

There is some wisdom in the stories in the Bible, as there is in many tales such as Aesop's Fables too, but you cannot simply pick & choose what's right and wrong based on a story.
So the Bible suggests that homosexuality is wrong? Yes, however it also suggests in places that slavery is right.
Which of these is the more heinous crime against humanity and human rights?

Take a look at what happens in China. Plenty of "natural" heterosexual parents have kids. However, if they're not boys, they don't want them.
Type "female children in China" into Google and see what comes out.
Top notch heterosexual parenting that!
The other odd upshot of this, means that the shortage of girls in China mean there's around 20 - 30 million Chinese boys who'll never get the chance to have one of Earth's so-called "natural" marriages to help perpetuate this stupid cycle!!

 

[DK]

My values were developed at a young age. They have stayed the same because I have found them personally to be right, unlike the values of countless millions which are decided by media and the mainstream.

Let me stop you right there. Your values were developed at a young age? Well, that's proof that family affects the moral values of a person. My parents didn't try to push their beliefs on me. My dad wouldn't love me any less if I were gay. If I had a son and he was gay, I wouldn't get pissed off. It takes a lot of (pardonnez mon français) balls to come out as gay. And that's a very admirable quality. Gays and lesbians still face unbelievable amounts of persecution for who they are. The people who persecute them use the Bible to justify what they're doing. The Bible even condones slavery. So it's not something you have to believe 100% of the bloody time.

If I didnt belief strongly in my values I would be wishy washy as others are.

Was the sudden outbreak of the homosexual lifestyle/marriage in the last 10-15 years because suddenly the world was suddenly enlightened and ha a golden ray of sun shine down on their face or because hollywood, the media and the mainstream pushed it out there as a reasonable alternative lifestyle?

Look, I live in Ireland. Ignore the stereotypes for a minute as you read my post. For a long time homosexuality was illegal here. Why? The Catholic Church. It was only legalized in 1993. The original 1937 Constitution of Ireland was heavily influenced by the Catholic Church. It's safe to say that the people who drafted the Constitution were gullible. We were a young country back then, and we didn't have much experience in making laws for ourselves. As a result, many of our original laws had a hint of the Catholic Church in them. I don't consider myself one of these rampant Catholics who go around calling gays 🤬. It was a good thing Catholicism wasn't declared the national religion of Ireland. It would have made life for Jews there very uncomfortable. But until 1973 (our entry into the EU, then the EEC) the Catholic Church had to approve laws passed by the Dail (our national parliament). Ireland was really messed up compared to today, in my opinion.

Really? I guess you never watch the Bravo channel, MSNBC, a Barrack Obama speech, Hillary Clinton or virtually any liberal speech, or the magazines that unveil male actors as homosexuals as something to be celebrated. Whens the last time you saw a movie or a magazine be anti-gay? I certainly can't remember. All I hear is Wanda Sykes, Rosie O' Donnell or others promoting it. You talk against homosexuality now and you get blasted.

Yes, because usually the people who speak against homosexuality sometimes go against the basic principle of "Love thy neighbour". If your neighbour was gay, that doesn't nullify this. Plus you also nullify your arguments with abysmal spelling and grammar. Ever heard of the "Caps Lock" or "Shift" keys?

So here we have the popular view of today, homosexuality is a choice.

If it is a bonafied choice, then lets teach it in Sex ED. Why discriminate against gay students? Don't they need to know how to have safe gay sex?

Let's not forget the lesbians. Let's teach them how to have sex.

I just don't think people are thinking of the consequences

And I suppose that involves some Bible basher coming in and saying sex is evil and only for marriage? What bullcrap. Bush certainly wasn't thinking of the consequences when he did barely anything to stop the credit crunch. He would consider bailouts to be akin to communism. Homosexuality is not a choice. You can't send little Johnny to Bible Camp to have his brain stuffed with crap saying that the Earth is 6,000 or so years old, that gays are Satan in disguise, that Mohammad was a terrorist and founded al-Qaeda, that Richard Dawkins must die in the most horrific way possible, and that any bookstores or libraries with "On the Origin of Species" or any pro-evolution book in stock must be burned down. He's basically being brainwashed, making that camp no better than all these famous propagandists: Hitler, Kim Jong-il, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao...the list goes on. If your kid is gay/lesbian, don't disown them. Don't say that Christ told you to love everyone, and then you reject someone because they like the same sex as themselves. The fact that they came out as gay/lesbian is a show of bravery.

 

[Famine]

So the Bible suggests that homosexuality is wrong? Yes, however it also suggests in places that slavery is right.

It also only says that homosexuality is wrong in the passage where it also condemns the eating of shellfish and tattooing.

If you've ever necked a ham sandwich, you can't cite the Bible as your moral source on homosexuality. The whole point of Christianity is that Jesus washed away all the old rules - the ten commandments, the book of Leviticus - and replaced them with his own teachings, which don't include "it is wrong to be a gay" and "a fix will come one day".

Its going to get to the point to where God intervenes, I'm sure that point is extremely close now, and when he does I pray I am on his side.

Yeah, I'm sure that God gets really pissed off when people prefer a different hole. Makes you wonder why he couldn't be arsed to intervene when millions of people were being exterminated for simply being alive by the European settlers in the colonial-era Americas and Australia, by Cromwell in republican-Britain era Ireland, the Bolsheviks in Leninist Russia, by Pol Pot in 70s Cambodia and of course the WW2 Holocaust.

Mind you, many of those exterminations included homosexuals. Perhaps the Nazis were doing God's work. Makes you wonder which side you're praying to be on.

 

[Sniffs]

I think I've got a general answer to the kind of question famine posed

Free Will

something else to keep in mind; mabey he said "bleep it" after they killed the Kid.

 

[Biggles]

Wow! Quite the "discussion"!

I particularly like the term coined by Earth: "Bonefied".

The argument that homosexuality is not "natural" is completely specious. First, as Roo pointed out, same-sex sex is a common occurrence in the animal world, & even if it weren't, the fact that millions of humans engage in it would, by definition, make it "natural", even if it were not the "norm".

As for the "homosexual agenda" it seems glaring obvious that the "heterosexual agenda" massively swamps the homosexual agenda, & that the only likely reason for an individual to be drawn to homosexual acts is the fact that they actually are homosexual. 💡

 

[Sam48]

And this is different from 2 females or 2 males raising a child how? In the dearth of an opposite sexual example, how is 1 single sex any more heterosexual than two?

I think enough people have touched on the lunacy of this that I don't really have to comment. I will point out, however, that sniping opinions and retreating before rebuttal is highly disrespected in this community. (On a second note, saying what will and will not happen didn't work out very well for Nostradamus - or any prognosticator, for that matter.)

1st paragraph- I probably shouldn't have commented on that not knowing the ways in which a gay couple would raise a child (this varies depending on the couple), but I simply can't get my head around the idea of a gay couple raising kids. It just seems wrong to me. Not in the "bad" kind of wrong, but the common sense kind of wrong. As

2nd paragraph- I was gone. GTPlanet isn't my life you know.

 

[Joel]

1st paragraph- I probably shouldn't have commented on that not knowing the ways in which a gay couple would raise a child (this varies depending on the couple), but I simply can't get my head around the idea of a gay couple raising kids. It just seems wrong to me. Not in the "bad" kind of wrong, but the common sense kind of wrong. As

Why! Why can't you! Because the Bible says so? Guess what, there's freedom of religion in your country.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

1st paragraph- I probably shouldn't have commented on that not knowing the ways in which a gay couple would raise a child (this varies depending on the couple), but I simply can't get my head around the idea of a gay couple raising kids. It just seems wrong to me. Not in the "bad" kind of wrong, but the common sense kind of wrong.

Dotini, if you're reading this, this is the essence of my argument for religion as a negative force in the world.

It allows people to use ill-formed preconceived notions of reality to make moral proclamations about things that their beliefs have no real bearing on, and then to (often successfully) lobby to have such beliefs enacted as law.

Why! Why can't you! Because the Bible says so? Guess what, there's freedom of religion in your country.

Theoretically, at any rate.

 

[DK]

Honestly, it would be better if people could just ignore religion when it comes to making laws. It's a very bad thing to combine Church and State. Look at mid-20th century Ireland, for example. If the Catholic Church got pissed off over any proposed new laws, the Government would be forced into an embarrassing climbdown in the fear that they might get excommunicated.

 

[Sam48]

Why! Why can't you! Because the Bible says so? Guess what, there's freedom of religion in your country.

It's one of things that I self consciously know is wrong.

 

[GrandCobra]

The government is the enemy and most of you don't even realise it. Earlier on when I said we need a fix I meant like helping them control their weird and unnatural fetish of wanting to fulfill their desires with a man. Like how we have people who help drug addicts because as I said it's a an addiction.

"Dotini, if you're reading this, this is the essence of my argument for religion as a negative force in the world."

Why is it negative? because it doesn't let you Drink alcohol, because it doesn't allow incest, because it doesn't allow you to be inhuman, it's negative to you because you want to behave and act like an animal.

Religion brings goodness in to this world and your twisted version of freedom will only bring destruction and nothing else.

and the user 'Earth' spoke the truth and nothing but the truth, Wake Up!

 

[Apok]

Earlier on when I said we need a fix I meant like helping them control their weird and unnatural fetish of wanting to fulfill their desires with a man. Like how we have people who help drug addicts because as I said it's a an addiction.

It doesn't look like you read all the posts. People already pointed out, that it is natural as it happens in nature all the time. Same sex intercourse is reported with many species not just human. And people want to help drug addicts because it is not good for them. Something that cannot be said for same sex intercourse.

Religion brings goodness in to this world

So were the wars caused by religion a good thing?

And your twisted version of freedom will only bring destruction and nothing else.

And do you have any proof of this? If so I would like to see/hear it.

and the user 'Earth' spoke the truth and nothing but the truth, Wake Up!

Okay go and build your underground bunker now, while we have fun.

 

[Famine]

The government is the enemy and most of you don't even realise it. Earlier on when I said we need a fix I meant like helping them control their weird and unnatural fetish of wanting to fulfill their desires with a man. Like how we have people who help drug addicts because as I said it's a an addiction.

What about those who have a fetish of fulfilling their desires with a woman?

The "unnatural" part has already been blown away by repeated examples of homosexual sex in nature. But if you weren't paying attention, dolphins, bonobos, pigs, sheep and dogs all engage in homosexual acts.

Why is it negative? because it doesn't let you Drink alcohol, because it doesn't allow incest, because it doesn't allow you to be inhuman, it's negative to you because you want to behave and act like an animal.

Where does it state these things?

Also you can't have it both ways - it's either unnatural or behaving like an animal. Can't be both.

 

[tyl0r_r]

Why hasn't anyone pointed out (or if they have why hasn't it been followed) that marriage is essentially a socio-political act. It is a legal arrangement. It is a product of highly codified societies. It is a part of the institutions that humanity has set up to AVOID living in a pure state of nature. Innumerable philosophers have described humans in a state of nature: Hobbes, Rousseau, Plato, whoever, take your pick.

The point is that marriage is not the same as monogamy. Marriage is by its very definition NOT NATURAL.

So why oh why are people discussing whether homosexuality is natural? It is well outside the question of gay marriage.

Marriage is a civil institution. We don't decide civic policy exclusively according to acts of nature.

It's also true that homosexuality occurs frequently in nature and anyone who doesn't know that should look it up and realize it. Perhaps this realization will take some of the zealousness away from the anti-homosexual crowd. By the logic of many of that crowd here: Your God created two male monkeys who just go nuts for sex with each other. You can watch on Youtube, I bet. Enjoy that, won't you?

That still has nothing to do with the question at hand.

 

[DK]

The government is the enemy and most of you don't even realise it.

If my government was the Iranian government, and I just wanted free democratic elections, yes, that would be the case. But I don't live in Iran.

Earlier on when I said we need a fix I meant like helping them control their weird and unnatural fetish of wanting to fulfill their desires with a man.

What, you want to send them to special camps (replace "special" with "concentration") and tell them that they're sick and would be sent to hell if it weren't for the people running the camps? Grow up, and grow a brain. As Apokalipse has said before, there have been documented cases of homosexuality in the wild, whether you like it or not. Actually, chances are if you did come across these gay animals you'd probably shoot them and send their bodies to a taxidermist so their heads can hang above your fireplace.

Like how we have people who help drug addicts because as I said it's a an addiction.

Sex is an addiction for some people, not all people. John Terry, Ashley Cole and Tiger Woods sound familiar? Homosexuality is not some disease like influenza or the common cold. It just means that a guy likes other guys or that women like other women. Homosexuality does not carry any direct risks like with drug addiction. Yes, HIV/AIDS does strike a lot of homosexuals, but it also strikes drug addicts. There have been documented cases of heroin addicts getting HIV/AIDS by sharing needles.

"Dotini, if you're reading this, this is the essence of my argument for religion as a negative force in the world."

Why is it negative? because it doesn't let you Drink alcohol, because it doesn't allow incest, because it doesn't allow you to be inhuman, it's negative to you because you want to behave and act like an animal.

It tries to control people. Sure, if all religion asks of you is to love each other and treat each other without prejudice, then it's a positive force. But time and time again countries that end up with a legal system barely separable from religion (e.g. Shari'a law) have caused difficulties for those who don't follow these laws, e.g. atheists and members of other religions. It tries to control what people think, as well. Creationism is an example.

Religion brings goodness in to this world and your twisted version of freedom will only bring destruction and nothing else.

For a long time Jews were persecuted by Christians because supposedly they killed Jesus. But it's important to remember that the Biblical account of Jesus' death was written just after a Jewish rebellion, around 70AD. The early Christians did not want to align themselves with people who had rebelled against the Romans. They wanted to win the hearts and minds of ordinary Mr. and Mrs. Roman. Saying that Jews were OK would not have gotten them bucketloads of followers - rather bucketloads of people who hate them. I know I'm repeating myself, but if you're planning on making laws for a country, you must ignore religion for a minute. You have to make laws that are fair for everyone - Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, atheists etc.

and the user 'Earth' spoke the truth and nothing but the truth, Wake Up!

This is the guy who said,

Mathew 24:7

This is my last post at GTPlanet. Repent, find God, the end is near.

This is not a guy who you would want as a teacher at school. Something tells me he's buying a bunker at a hardware store and waiting for the End of Days. He said this on the Chile Hit By 8.8 Earthquake thread. Earthquakes are a natural event, not the wrath of an angry God. If you want to believe that God sends natural disasters to punish a sinful world, where the 🤬 was he when all these infamous monsters such as Hitler were around? If you think God controls every human being, again, explain Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong-il, Papa Doc Douvalier, Idi Amin, Mussolini etc. You can't, you'll just duck out and hide behind the Bible, a book which condones slavery.

 

[tyl0r_r]

This is not a guy who you would want as a teacher at school. Something tells me he's buying a bunker at a hardware store and waiting for the End of Days. He said this on the Chile Hit By 8.8 Earthquake thread. Earthquakes are a natural event, not the wrath of an angry God. If you want to believe that God sends natural disasters to punish a sinful world, where the 🤬 was he when all these infamous monsters such as Hitler were around? If you think God controls every human being, again, explain Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong-il, Papa Doc Douvalier, Idi Amin, Mussolini etc. You can't, you'll just duck out and hide behind the Bible, a book which condones slavery.

First let me say I'm not Christian. Secondly, people who make this argument are ignorant of their own religion. They miss the entire point of the new testament. They will say that God is love; they will say things like this are his wrath. It is futile to argue with them because their case is not based on anything but improvisation around the theme of all powerful punishment/rewards. Their arguments are not based on their supposed dogma.

 

[DK]

First let me say I'm not Christian. Secondly, people who make this argument are ignorant of their own religion. They miss the entire point of the new testament. They will say that God is love; they will say things like this are his wrath. It is futile to argue with them because their case is not based on anything but improvisation around the theme of all powerful punishment/rewards. Their arguments are not based on their supposed dogma.

Sorry. But I wasn't referring to you. I know that very few people believe that God controls everything (including people) all the time. I'm sorry if my previous comment has offended you.

 

[tyl0r_r]

Sorry. But I wasn't referring to you. I know that very few people believe that God controls everything (including people) all the time. I'm sorry if my previous comment has offended you.

Not at all my friend, I may have been unclear myself! I'm basically totally agreeing with everything you said but adding that I think it's really sad that you even have to plead your case and that it will not matter to the people you are arguing against because their position is able to shift around as it suits them because they work from a made up point of view that really messes up a careful reading of their religion.

So, all power to ya 👍

 

[Danoff]

Why is it negative? because it doesn't let you Drink alcohol, because it doesn't allow incest, because it doesn't allow you to be inhuman, it's negative to you because you want to behave and act like an animal.

You're defining inhuman as simply "against the bible". Don't know where you come up with that, but it's impressive that you can think that the only people acting like human beings are the ones that follow your religion.

(Still suspicious you're a troll btw. These are pretty ridiculous claims.)

 

[homeforsummer]

The government is the enemy and most of you don't even realise it.

Isn't it amusing how the people who complain about the government the most are often those with the shortest tempers and least predisposed to actually do anything about it, like, I dunno, voting. Or perhaps you just vote for the BNP.

Earlier on when I said we need a fix I meant like helping them control their weird and unnatural fetish of wanting to fulfill their desires with a man. Like how we have people who help drug addicts because as I said it's a an addiction.

How about gay women? Is that unnatural too?

Religion brings goodness in to this world and your twisted version of freedom will only bring destruction and nothing else.

Err, no. Firstly, freedom is relative. I'm still quite happy to believe I live in a free country, even if there are some Orwellian elements to it rearing their heads every so often. I can move about in public space freely, the authorities are still by and large fairly good-natured - you'd have to be seriously unlucky to be arrested in the street for no reason - unsurprisingly, you have to be doing something pretty suspicious before the Police notice you (and again, amusing that those who complain most vocally about the Police are those who are always doing something stupid and then it's apparently the Police's fault for catching them). I have the right to vote and so does everyone else over 18, be they male, female, caucasian or otherwise; I can choose where to shop, what to wear, where to live, what car I want to drive, where I go to school/college/university, I have no trouble getting a job and I don't believe I'm taxed too heavily for it (at least compared to the super taxes of the 70s/80s), and the tax that leaves my pay each month does go towards decent public services (although they can always be better).

So yeah, I'm pretty happy. I feel free. I can assume the two are at least partially related, and as I've not been affected in any way by any gay couple who want to get married or have sex, I can only assume that their freedom has absolutely no correlation to mine and no affect on my life. So as far as I'm concerned, they can do that all they like. Gay people having sex doesn't stop me doing what I want to do, driving where I want to drive, earning a living at work etc so why should they be denied that?

Religion on the other hand... well apart from it having bored the crap out of me for most of my childhood education, it's done nothing for me. If it were more heavily encouraged though it might. I already get bugged by loonies preaching in the street about things they don't understand. And you can bet I'd be dischuffed if everyone were forced to go to chuch every Sunday. I have much better things to do on a Sunday morning than sit around listening to passages from a glorified biography.

And I'm not quite sure any children who've ever been molested by members of the clergy would say that religion brought goodness to their world. Nor anyone unfortunate enough to have had limbs blown off after an Islamic extremist blew themselves up. That sounds like individuals abusing religion, to me. Religion certainly isn't free of all ills.

and the user 'Earth' spoke the truth and nothing but the truth, Wake Up!

I'm awake, which is why I'm able to see that everything he wrote was drivel.

I'm quite disappointed actually. I'm sure that when I joined GTP that Earth was more level-headed and certainly more eloquent. Either my memory is serving me badly or he's fallen off the wagon but this no longer seems to be the case.

 

[Joel]

It's one of things that I self consciously know is wrong.

You can't just say "I know it's wrong". Would you trust an aerospace engineer who built a plane and said "I self consciously know it will fly"? You can't just say "I know it's wrong" That does not cut it.


Give me a legitimate reason why it's wrong and immoral.

"God says it's bad"
-Freedom of Religion, sorry.

"It's unnatural"
-Well, my 2 girl dogs humping in the next room over aren't natural then. Hell, let's get rid of Computers, roller coasters, and eye glasses because they aren't natural.

"I wouldn't want to be raised by only 1 sex"
-Well, i guess we have to repossess all of the children in single parent households

"It would undermine straight marriage"
- Yes, because two men getting married will affect a marriage between a man and a woman...somehow.

"Children will grow up to be gay if they have gay parents"
-Yes, just like hanging around tall friends will make you taller!

"I just know that it's wrong"
-Well, I just know that you're somebody who has had their beliefs shaped by a silly religion, and want that religion imposed on everyone.

 

[Sam48]

You can't just say "I know it's wrong". Would you trust an aerospace engineer who built a plane and said "I self consciously know it will fly"? You can't just say "I know it's wrong" That does not cut it.


Give me a legitimate reason why it's wrong and immoral.

"God says it's bad"
-Freedom of Religion, sorry.

"It's unnatural"
-Well, my 2 girl dogs humping in the next room over aren't natural then. Hell, let's get rid of Computers, roller coasters, and eye glasses because they aren't natural.

"I wouldn't want to be raised by only 1 sex"
-Well, i guess we have to repossess all of the children in single parent households

"It would undermine straight marriage"
- Yes, because two men getting married will affect a marriage between a man and a woman...somehow.

"Children will grow up to be gay if they have gay parents"
-Yes, just like hanging around tall friends will make you taller!

"I just know that it's wrong"
-Well, I just know that you're somebody who has had their beliefs shaped by a silly religion, and want that religion imposed on everyone.

I think your missing the point, I'm (somewhat) OK with gay marriage. But unless you yourself are gay, then you would naturally think that being raised by a gay couple is wrong (or disturbing). When I think about a gay couple raising a child, my brain tells that it's somehow wrong. I don't know how or why, but it seems wrong.

 

[Northstar]

But unless you yourself are gay, then you would naturally think that being raised by a gay couple is wrong (or disturbing).

What?

I'm not gay and I see no problem with a child being raised by a gay couple. I would have loved to have 2 gay parents that cared rather than the 1 mom who doesn't give a rats ass that I do have.