Gran Turismo 7 Confirmed to also launch on PlayStation 4, is a cross-gen title

[RacingFan1]

Witcher 3 was not developed with high-end PC in mind for max settings. The differences between Witcher 3 PC maxed out vs. ps4 actually aren't enormous, and definitely not generational enormous. The overall lighting and shading model are the same, the actual assets, gameplay, and game world are the same, the biggest differences are just in image resolution and draw distance for shadows and asset models. Most of these differences would go unnoticeable unless looked at a side-by-side. It was the bare minimum of what you would expect out of a PC version of the game.

The switch port was also mostly developed by an entirely different developer, released 4 years after the PS4/PC platforms. They had time to figure out how to port an already finished game game by reworking the entire engine and making major concessions. How are we expecting Polyphony to release two different versions of GT7 at the same time, with different asset models and gameplay features? It's not at all comparable. The performance difference between a Switch and base Xbox One/PS4 is also smaller than the hardware delta between a PS4 and PS5.

Witcher 3 PC Ultra settings vs. PS4.




PC max settings

PS4

PC max settings

PS4

The final game was actually notably downgraded from its initial PC reveal, the devs admitted they changed the rendering system and rewrote the lighting model, all of which affected the final PC version because it also needed to run on consoles. Pretty easy to tell which is the final game vs. initial PC target.

Cyberpunk wasn't "rushed." It was in development for EIGHT years and was first announced in 2012. They simply made the mistake of designing the game for higher-end hardware instead of re-scoping the game & graphics to design it around last gen consoles like they had done for Witcher 3. The devs even admitted in an investor Q&A that they had put too much focus looking at next-gen/PC performance and then went "oh crap we also need to release on last-gen, guess we'll just try to band-aid fix it with post-launch patches", which obviously wouldn't work out. 8 months after release and the game is still banned from being sold on PSN.

When asked if the developer underestimated the performance of the current-gen version Michał Nowakowski, vice president of business management, stated the reason being was the team was “looking at the next-gen and PC performance, rather than the current-gen” and “definitely did not spend enough time looking at that”.

Nowakowski also added that both Microsoft and Sony were more than likely hoping the game would receive a patch at launch after going through both companies certification process:

“If I can say anything it’s that I can only assume that yes, they were counting that we were going to fix the things upon the release and that obviously did not come together exactly as we had planned.”​

Appreciate the effort but I know what Witcher 3 looks like on every platform.
Machines like the PS4 Pro or XBox One can't run Witcher 3 on max settings. A maxed out version on PC still looks better than those and only could be ran on next gen consoles. If you dont think the difference between PS4 TW3 and PC TW3 on max settings isn't "enormous" or "quite big", then ok, it's your opinion, I have mine, let's move on...

Cyberpunk WAS rushed. They spent too much time developing it, yes, but was still rushed because it was definitely a non-polished, not 100% finished product at the release date. Those are not mutually exclusive.

The gentlemen at Digital Foundry are none too pleased with this news.



And I would suggest that you guys stop engaging with the troll.

Did you actually call me troll? 👎
Those DF guys basically say what I'm saying. It's perfectly possible to do a cross-gen GT7, but they are not very happy because they are the typical hardware elitists that want to get rid of old hardware and want the games to push the PS5 boundaries and all that

So in the end the debate is not if it's possible to do a cross gen GT7 (it is) but... Is this what we want? Well, there's not one single answer for this. Some people definitely want to move on from PS4 but others can't afford PS5 and would be happy playing it with PS4

 

[Dave A]

So in the end the debate is not if it's possible to do a cross gen GT7 (it is) but... Is this what we want?

Which is what the entire debate is about. No one, and I will repeat, no one has argued that it is not possible to create a cross-gen GT7, it is afterall, likely that this is actually going to happen.

What people are saying, myself included, is that it's going to mean that the PS5 version of the game is compromised to allow for a PS4 version to exist. That is abolutely true, the PS4 version will bottlneck features, physics, AI, environments etc. during developement and the PS5 version will have to work with thoserestrictions.

The only way around this is to develope two entirely different games that simply look similar on the surface, same cars, tracks, races etc. But underneath the game engines and features are designed differently to make best use of their respective consoles. This rarely happens, it costs considerably more to develop and it takes a lot more time.

The original Space Invaders could release on almost every generation of computer since it's release, but you wanted to improvie it, the evolve it along with the more modern technology as it developed it couldn't. I.e. jump from 2d to 3d, change from basic path movement to pathfinding movement, thsn smart AI that hunts the player, looking for patterns in play and weaknesses, re-grouping etc. Introduce large scale space battles and so on.

You really have missed the entire point of the argument that people have been making.

 

[VBR]

I'm okay with this. The main reason being is that I've always hated how PD pushes the limits of each GT game beyond what the console can handle resulting in bad shadows, frame rates, aliasing, etc (they've been doing this since at least GT4). However, I really like the way that GT Sport looks and runs on the PS5, as it seems to suffer from none of those problems. So, I'm hoping that GT7 will be similar in that regard. We are reaching the point of diminishing returns when it comes to next-gen poly counts, so maybe having a game that runs ok on PS4 and great on PS5 will be a good thing.

 

[Dave A]

We are reaching the point of diminishing returns when it comes to next-gen poly counts, so maybe having a game that runs ok on PS4 and great on PS5 will be a good thing.

Spot on, while newer consoles can push more polygons, we are at a point where we are definitely seeing diminishing returns. The difference we see from the jumps now is not huge, the bigger gain for polygon utilisation now IMO is to create more realistic environments with more going on. I.e. GTA 6 could have busy areas with many times more pedestrians walking around and heavier traffic if they wanted to.

I don't mind GT Sports graphics too much, I expect GT7 to be better graphically, that's a given, higher resolutions, better lighting etc. And I like to see them improve the environments (which may not happen to the degree it should). However it's how you utilise the CPU over the GPU that I'm interested in, better AI, faster and more complex physics. Feature wise, dymanic time of day and weather would also be welcome, that would be more of a GPU strain on PS4 and require them to streip the graphics back from GT Sport. Therefore if GT7 is cross-gen as we now expect this is unlikely to happen for GT7.

 

[Alex p.]

I'm expecting static time-of-day again with no time progression for GT7 now. Forza 8 is also coming next year but is next-gen only, confirmed to have dynamic weather and time of day progression, highly improved tire physics. It's pretty much confirmed to blow GT7 out of the water in graphics, features, and physics so the comparison are going to be hilarious.

This mean Polyphony isn't anywhere near close to upgrading their engine to fully take advantage of the PS5 hardware. We'll be near the end of the generation by the time a true next-gen Gran Turismo comes out given how slow Polyphony works.

You mean AFTER the generation ended? Just like with GT6 on the PS3, when the PS4 was already out...

Willing to guarantee that GT7 is going to be, without question, a lazily done up GT Sport rehash with the single player suite it should have launched with.

Your post is just *chef's kiss* I really agree 100%. I bet this is EXACTLY what we're going to get...

So... GT Sport with the one thing that it needed to be good? Is that a problem somehow?

Yes. It would mean PD needed 8-9 years for THAT...

 

[RacingFan1]

Which is what the entire debate is about. No one, and I will repeat, no one has argued that it is not possible to create a cross-gen GT7

You certainly haven't read sall the thread then, and you and others have big fears that the PS4 may be a useless, uncapable machine.... Well, I insist on disagreeing with that, PS4 is far more capable than you think and certainly in terms of physics and AI can do a lot better than what they did in GT Sport.
Pretty sure that what PD did with GT Sport and PS4, was to focus so much on graphics perfection (and 60FPS) that they compromised the rest

 

[Dave A]

You certainly haven't read sall the thread then, and you and others have big fears that the PS4 may be a useless, uncapable machine.... Well, I insist on disagreeing with that, PS4 is far more capable than you think and certainly in terms of physics and AI can do a lot better than what they did in GT Sport.

I have been in disussion throughout most of the thread and did read it from the start. Yes, some people have used words like "out-dated" and "crappy" in reference to the PS4 and it's processor, and that is a matter of opinoin and perspective. But no one is arguing that it's not possible to make GT7 cross-gen, they're saying it's not possible to create the next-gen GT game that they want and for it to be cross-gen. That's a big difference to what you are reading into the discussion.

It's certianly not been part of the disussion you've had with me, so frankly even if you do find a post somewhere that stats GT7 cannot be cross-gen no matter what, yes that's factually wrong, but it's not relevent to any of my responses to you.

My counter argument is that you are factually wrong that there's nothing that you could do in GT7 (beyond the graphics) that the PS4 can't do. That's completely wrong.

That's also what I've been saying, and quite clearly, but you've continuelly rehashed irrelevant and incorrect responses about the physics not pushing the CPU etc. There are many things I want in GT7 that would make it impossible to run on a PS4 and it being cross-gen makes these things highly unlikely to appear. I find that dissapointing becuase although I don't own a PS5 now and have no desire to purchase on in the coming months, I do want GT7 to be best it can be and it is a title that if it is good enough, I will buy a PS5 for.

I do not want GT Sport with a fleshed out single player career mode and tuning, I want continued evolution of the series, better physics, AI, environments, graphics, everything. And for every console generation to date, we've got those improvements as Gran turismo has evolved with the consoles. We will not get the same all round improvement if GT7 is cross-gen just the same as other cross-gen games are restricted by the older, weaker hardware.

 

[Samus]

You certainly haven't read sall the thread then, and you and others have big fears that the PS4 may be a useless, uncapable machine.... Well, I insist on disagreeing with that, PS4 is far more capable than you think and certainly in terms of physics and AI can do a lot better than what they did in GT Sport.
Pretty sure that what PD did with GT Sport and PS4, was to focus so much on graphics perfection (and 60FPS) that they compromised the rest

GT Sport right now, with it's just above average physics and terrible AI is absolutely using as much of the CPU power as possible. It's absurd to suggest otherwise, PD aren't going to just leave anything on the table. So yes, whilst broadly speaking the PS4 CPU can (and does in other titles) compute better physics and AI than what is in GTS, PD are preferring to use the power for other things, and are very likely to continue to do so.

It also doesn't change the fact that the PS5 CPU is far ahead of the PS4 one so even if they do choose to improve physics and AI in GT7 and compromise on other things, they could have still pushed them even further if they were only working with PS5. That is plainly obvious.

 

[RacingFan1]

GT Sport right now, with it's just above average physics and terrible AI is absolutely using as much of the CPU power as possible.

Sauce? If true it must not use it on the Physics and AI that's for sure

 

[Techlet]

Sauce? The PS4 turns into a jet engine during races.

It's simply illogical to expect devs to leave, say, "50%" CPU headroom when designing a first party console exclusive.

If there is, as you suggest, a ton of headroom for CPU processing left on the table, then you might as well be suggesting that PD is incompetent at utilizing PS hardware.

 

[Klik]

GT sport is a simcade that caters to controller users and mass market. If you played ACC on console you would know what is proprer sim game.If ACC can manage to have ps4/x1 port with their physics i don't see reason why GT wouldn't have. So its not about CPU/GPU being underpowered.Hell, for wheel users, i would love to see GT7 be more like PC2.


Its really nonsense that we don't get a bit better force feedback for wheels on GT sport. You can't feel anything how car behave in this game.

 

[Techlet]

GT sport is a simcade that caters to controller users and mass market. If you played ACC on console you would know what is proprer sim game.If ACC can manage to have ps4/x1 port with their physics i don't see reason why GT wouldn't have.

ACC runs at an unstable 30fps on PS4 with fewer cars on track (limited by CPU).

Have a read/watch on what they've had to compromise when porting it to PS4: https://www.digitalfoundry.net/2020...whats-up-with-performance-all-consoles-tested

TLDR: game has great potential that's just unable to be realized on current gen consoles.

 

[DivitLad]

Kaz said you can have better physics but crappy grfx or rubbish physics and nice grfx, the nice grfx will win everytime so I'd say forget the better physics, not exactly improved over the many years gt has been out as a series. better ffb would be nice.

 

[cowboyjon]

Soooo...

...just split the player bases.

The more the merrier of course but what's the big deal with segregation?

Those that can't get a ps5 or don't want one can enjoy the game on their ps4.

Those with a ps5 can play their own enhanced version of the game against other ps5 players. The number of players won't be any different at all if it had been a ps5 exclusive.

Everyone wins.

 

[Techlet]

Can't really do split officially licensed FIA championships.

 

[Alex p.]

AI and gameplay will most likely be untouched, no damage either like GT5.

Environments may look dull and static, so off putting now after waiting ages to see original circuits return.

That's why Trial Mountain looked like complete ass on the PS5.

 

[cowboyjon]

Can't really do split officially licensed FIA championships.

Ah...

So lose the licence or remain ps4 only for the first year or two?

 

[Dave A]

Soooo...

...just split the player bases.

The more the merrier of course but what's the big deal with segregation?

Those that can't get a ps5 or don't want one can enjoy the game on their ps4.

Those with a ps5 can play their own enhanced version of the game against other ps5 players. The number of players won't be any different at all if it had been a ps5 exclusive.

Everyone wins.

It's not that simple. To make a PS5 version of the game that is as good as a PS5 exclusive version could be, would require creating a sperate game to the PS4 version. This is extremely time and cost inefficient, which is why when you do see cross-gen games, the features on the newer console are mostly the same as they are in the game on the older console. The only differences tend to be graphics, or in the case of the PS5 making use of haptic feedback in the controller.

You won't see dynamic time of day, larger environments, dynamic weather, better AI, better physics etc. in the PS5 version if that's not possible also in the PS4 version. Therefore the PS4 version of the game bottlenecks the PS5 version. I'm not saying we won't see any of these things, but we certainly won't see as much of an improvement as we will if it's PS5 exclusive.

 

[SomeGamer2021]

According to what my parents said, there's a lack of PS5/XB1-SX/XB1-SS chips to come up with the demands.

As for my reaction to GT7 PS4 I'm fully neutral.

Another edit here now that I think about it... I think I'm overly easy to satisfy in some cases.

Oh well.

 

[Samus]

Sauce? If true it must not use it on the Physics and AI that's for sure

I haven't got a source but like I said, nobody purposely leaves processing power on the table, not in a big complex game like Gran Turismo.

 

[Destroy321]

I disagree with the decision to release GT7 in cross-generation, but I feel that programming issues are more important than CPU for the badness of AI after GT5. The PS2 GT3 AI was much faster and much more aggressive.

 

[RacingFan1]

Soooo...

...just split the player bases.

The more the merrier of course but what's the big deal with segregation?

Those that can't get a ps5 or don't want one can enjoy the game on their ps4.

Those with a ps5 can play their own enhanced version of the game against other ps5 players. The number of players won't be any different at all if it had been a ps5 exclusive.

Everyone wins.

Probably it could be that route if they have big problems
PS4 GT7 users may only enjoy career mode and not get access online features along with PS5 players, or have them very limited, and no official FIA / Sport mode or whatever.

 

[Alex p.]

SeemsSony haven't learnt from their mistake with GT6... Honestly i hope Polyphony becomes a totally indipendent company from Sony, they are killing the franchise with these decisions

No. Kaz/PD are killing themselfes. Very unefficient. No real roadmap. Bad planning/timing management.

 

[TotosaLoko]

Honestly, i don't care about dynamic time and weather, it's a completely unnecessary resource for me and many others, as many successful simulators don't have it, and looking at it from the gameplay point of view, i think it's great because it will be easy to find matches online, as more people play, better and to conclude, from a business point of view, i would do the same thing, it would be stupid to dispense with a playerbase as big as the PS4, even more if we consider that games and simulators are increasingly expensive to make, especially if we consider the cost of licensing cars and tracks, so if you're a real fan you should think that's good, more money means more players, more cars, more tracks and more events..

 

[Samus]

Surprised how long it took for someone to play the "real fan" card.

 

[McRae555]

For those that are disappointed, I'd like to remind you the Forza Horizon 2. It was a cross-gen release as well and most people would remember how bad it was on the 360 and it didn't affect the XB1 version at all.. I don't think the game will be downgraded because of the PS4 but rather they'll limit the GT7's PS4 version. That way, -except the online championships- the PS5 version will not be affected. Maybe they can even block the PS4 version from joining ranked lobbies. We don't know anything except the release news.

 

[Darla Starch]

Surprised how long it took for someone to play the "real fan" card.

tbf the REEEEEEEEE-ing over GT7 likely but not totally officially coming to PS4 was taking precedence.

 

[Doomotron]

The two versions of the game will be titled as follows: GT7 Poverty Spec and GT7 Premium Spec.

Surely it should be GT7 Standard and Premium? Or Classic and Premium?

For those that are disappointed, I'd like to remind you the Forza Horizon 2. It was a cross-gen release as well and most people would remember how bad it was on the 360 and it didn't affect the XB1 version at all.. I don't think the game will be downgraded because of the PS4 but rather they'll limit the GT7's PS4 version. That way, -except the online championships- the PS5 version will not be affected. Maybe they can even block the PS4 version from joining ranked lobbies. We don't know anything except the release news.

FH2 for the 360 was made by a completely separate studio and shared pretty much nothing in common with the Xbox One version. They were effectively different games. GT7 for the PS4 is the same game as the PS5 version. The PS5 version will always be limited by the PS4 version because they will have to be identical experiences, except one or two minor features perhaps.

 

[Tornado]

Witcher 3 was developed with a high end PC in mind for max settings, actually doesn't seem far off the level of PS5 power or so...

The PS5 is overwhelmingly more powerful than any PC you could build in 2015 was; which was already leaps and bounds ahead of what the PS4 could do. You should get some sort of a clue how PC hardware has advanced in the past decade, especially in the past 4 years or so, before you keep making statements about where it was at any specific time in history.




If nothing else though you've at least picked a date this time where a top of the line computer from then can still reliably play games released in 2020/2021.

Those DF guys basically say what I'm saying.

No, they aren't. Linneman has even specifically noted elsewhere, also brought up in this thread, that developers are sick of working with the constraints of the PS4/XBone.

but they are not very happy because they are the typical hardware elitists that want to get rid of old hardware

Or they are industry journalists with decades of experience between them, with their chosen expertise being in regards to game hardware specifically, who don't want games releasing in 2022 (two years after the launch of the fastest selling console in the history of the industry) to be handcuffed to bad hardware from 2013.



I suppose I can see how that might be confused with being "typical hardware elitists" though, from someone who compared the PS4 to a mid-ranged PC and asserted a game from 2021 would work fine on a PC from 2013.

Well, I insist on disagreeing with that, PS4 is far more capable than you think

No, it's not. In absolute terms, it was middling-to-bad when it was new. It was an open secret that it it was middling-to-bad when it was new. People were complaining that the hardware was middling-to-bad when it was new. Developers commented on it being middling-to-bad when it was new. Sony and Microsoft both indirectly justified it being middling-to-bad when both were new by expressing that they weren't interested in taking a humongous bath on each console sale that generation like they had on PS360.

Sauce? If true it must not use it on the Physics and AI that's for sure

PD released a game 4 years after the console it was on came out and deliberately did not take advantage of all of the hardware at their disposal in the process; then noted that they sacrificed features to make sure the stuff they did implement worked correctly?

Honestly, i don't care about dynamic time and weather, it's a completely unnecessary resource for me and many others, as many successful simulators don't have it, and looking at it from the gameplay point of view, i think it's great because it will be easy to find matches online, as more people play, better and to conclude, from a business point of view, i would do the same thing, it would be stupid to dispense with a playerbase as big as the PS4, even more if we consider that games and simulators are increasingly expensive to make, especially if we consider the cost of licensing cars and tracks, so if you're a real fan you should think that's good, more money means more players, more cars, more tracks and more events..

Man that's an awful lot of things to consider and points of view to look at it from in one sentence.



It's too bad all of the people I regularly played online with in GT5 weren't TRUE FANS since they didn't buy GT6 when I did and the lobbies were basically dead in comparison; even after Sony tried to force them off GT5 by shutting the servers down.

For those that are disappointed, I'd like to remind you the Forza Horizon 2. It was a cross-gen release as well and most people would remember how bad it was on the 360 and it didn't affect the XB1 version at all.. I don't think the game will be downgraded because of the PS4 but rather they'll limit the GT7's PS4 version. That way, -except the online championships- the PS5 version will not be affected. Maybe they can even block the PS4 version from joining ranked lobbies. We don't know anything except the release news.

360 Horizon 2 was farmed out to another studio and was developed mostly independently into effectively a different game; something Kaz has notoriously been against in the past and which PD almost certainly could not do by themselves.

 

[hardvibes]

No. Kaz/PD are killing themselfes. Very unefficient. No real roadmap. Bad planning/timing management.

Plus I think there's still:

1) an echo chamber formed at PD headquarters, where they all congratulate each other for whatever they do, they think it's the only right way and nobody listens to players feedback. PD don't communicate on social media, Kaz has his own twitter account but doesn't post anything relevant, him or anybody else from PD don't speak english, social media management is done by Sony and acts like a go-between PD and the fanbase. Inefficient as hell. Looks like in Japan they never check gtplanet. I'm not saying we are relevant, compared to the average GT player around the world, I'm saying they should consider us more for our contribution...like Turn10 do with their core fanbase on their own official forum.
PD just have their own vision, and that's it. We're seeing the results, or absence of.

2) an old school mentality holding back the true potential of GT. And that mentality could be represented by one person inside Polyphony Digital (Kaz) or an employee or a group of people Kaz doesn't want to get rid of only because he trusts them....but they're not able to be up to date with new trends, new technologies and so on. Or they're just very slow.
I see slow innovation in general for the franchise. And this multiplatform "thingy" isn't helping innovating.

I don't know, I had to get this out of my chest. This has been going on in my mind since I put my hands on GT5 and still goes on today.

My opinion.