Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[ScottPuss20]

Okay, sorry to hear that. I don't know much about your disability but is GT7 so different to GT Sport? It seems very similar to me and I don't recall you having troubles with that game (not that I'd really know), which is what lead me to consider that it might be a familiarity thing. What about AC? That's the game you first brought up so that's the game I was first replying about.

I also had trouble with GT Sport.

 

[05XR8]

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[ScottPuss20]

I’ve mentioned before how the replay look different to what we “feel”. Yes, watching real racing, it all looks smooth on the outside, but watch an in-car cam and the driver is going wild to control the thing.

The replay is always flattering.

 

[05XR8]

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[chengman]

I was defending the pyhsics very hard up to this point. I still think they are miles better than GT Sports physics but today I experienced some really strange behavior on circuit experience Le man's and nordschleife. Le mans is just buggy you can tell me what you want. There is something not working in the aero model in an LMP at that speed you should never have snap oversteer. Nordschleife driving without out TC because it makes you way slower in a GT3 is also a joke. You should be way faster with it on. Every GT3 has TC in reallife it's on all the time esp on the nordschleife.

Also there are a few corners with way to much grip and corners where you can spin where it is literally impossible to spin in reallife. The right before Kallenhardt ist horrendous. It's an easy flat corner no matter how you approach it in reallife also the left kink after breidschied it's impossible to spin in reallife. If you don't hit the one right line in the game you need to lift or you are just gone. Aremberg on the other hand has grip like mad same for Stephan bellof s which are a challenge in a GT3 but are flat no matter which line you take in the game. Also you can hit some kerbs full with the whole car and it's fine and flat out which you could never in reallife but touch them a bit with a cm of One wheel and you are gone which would be fine in Reallife. Very wierd
I have hundreds of laps on the nordschleife in reallife with various cars. I still think Roadcars are very good in this game. Racecars not so much.

Also is the nordschleife laser scanned? there are quite a few corners who feel very wierd and wrong in this game. Eiskurve for example Wippermann etc
Also there are different grip levels of grass in my opinion in this game. Tsukuba for example has extremely grippy grass it's actually so grippy in the 30 min tsukuba race driving on the grass has way more grip than driving on the wet track and some tracks have grass which you should not touch at all

I think I know what you are talking about in regards to the racecars. GT7 seems to be using the same physics modeling system from previous GT-games aka grip multipliers. It's basically just a giant sliding bar where speed increase=grippier tire gets added on. I felt it when I was racing GT3 cars today and it didnt feel like real downforce(former-FSAE, currently working at OEM as engineer) when compared to AC/PC2/iRacing. In those games, the car gets more stable during cornering, but in GT7 the higher the cornering speed, the more snappy the car gets. The throttle mapping is also something I still stand by as too aggressive along with diff settings that behave like an open diff.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

GTO and Testarossa I bought them too, such great Cars to drive in its stock Version.
Ok, I’m awaiting your Feedback then.
Maybe we can share our thoughts.
I‘m looking forward to your impressions 💪🏻

I'm driving the GTO today in a 3H run on N24. It's the best road car experience yet. I did fully pimp it out to 740 PP or something, added more down force to compensate and drive it in FM 2 while short shifting a lot for stability. Then let it go on the straights and it reaches over 340 kph. 8:57 best lap so far.

It feels great on the track, easy to predict when the rear will break out and not that difficult to catch it. I feel like a bad ass doing a controlled slide through Brunchen. I did have a weird crash at Schedenkreuz, the car got loose on the hill just before the fast left, the suspension spazzed out jostling the car which then went flying into the wall. Going too fast

It sounds amazing, easier and faster than the Mark IV and a whole lot more predictable. I can hear the tires in the GTO which is a great help finding the limits. None of that suddenly facing backwards when taking a corner 5 kph too fast. Love it!
(It does need a new paint job already sorry car, just testing you out. Damage on the back is on the AI!)

 

[dabz343]

it's like groundhog day in this thread...let's wait for April's patch as PD figures out how to address issues that are obvious by now -- because of over 100 pages of feedback.

There are some beautifully models cars to try while we wait, why not avoid the dreadful in the meantime and enjoy the sublime? The Radical is fun, the AMG GT Black Series is near perfect, the Gr4 Cayman and the Gr3 911 are confidence inspiring, the F40 is full of character and there is the unflappable Gr3 4C, and on and on...

Sidebar -- when discussing GT7's physics, accompanying your post with data/evidence elevates credibility...and if you don't, no matter how many pages you write, or how detailed you description, you are going to be dismissed...and there is nothing you can do about it. To those that have, and continue to provided more than anecdotal jargon, you are appreciated.

 

[Tenacious D]

Without proper Tire Squeal you‘re doomed 😅

I've said this a few times already, but if the tires complained ever more loudly as they approach that dreaded loss of grip point, it would help a lot with the current physics build. Turn up tire volume in the audio mixer to the point you're comfy with it, it will help. I think I need to juice mine a bit more...

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Once again, if you look at the higher lobbies in this week's daily race C, there's nothing wrong with the physics. People are racing 13 laps at Brands Hatch in gr.3 cars with often worn RH tyres, without assists. And to be competitive, you have to be slightly over the limit in corners, sliding more or less in many of them. People regularly lose it just a bit too much, catch it and keep going, without losing speed. And most importantly, when people eventually slide off the track, they know exactly what mistake they did - it wasn't random, but highly predictable and repeatable.
GTS was fun too but this is a lot better.

If they can, why shouldn't you be able to? Maybe you should ask yourselves what they're doing differently?

I'm enjoying GT7 immensely - under, at and over the limit. And I still really hope they don't make any major changes to the physics.


- "But not everyone is DR A/A+, shouldn't they be able to enjoy the game as well?" Yes, that's what the assists are for.

- "It's road cars that are broken, not race cars." No, they're actually easier since everything is slower, but they drive way differently.

- "Cars need to be tuned to drive properly." They can be faster or more enjoyable with tuning, but there's nothing broken that needs to be fixed - you're just bypassing your skill deficits by making it understeer more or grip more at the rear in slow turns.

 

[Scaff]

But GT7 just does it the same, though in a completely different way.
Driving the Cars in GT7 is very easy as long as you stay within the Limits.

It generally is, and 1.09 has helped move things forward, however it still feels well behind the best on the market in terms of granularity of detail.

But once you start to push them, the line becomes veeeery thin.
But it’s the same in real life.
Once you pass the Point of no return, well, the name speaks for itself I think.
Game over.

Nope, the line varies depending on the tyre you are on and the car you are driving, GT7 still has race tyres acting more progressive than road tyres, which is utterly backwards, getting out of shape still at times throws the physcis engine into a fit resulting in utterly odd behaviour, load transfer still gets messed up massively (FWD cars doing stopies), and while reduced, the habit of FR cars having the back step out suddenly when on a constant throttle and in a constant radius corner is nonsense (and no it's not lift as has also been suggested, lift will primarily affect the front in this regard and will result in understeer).

However, the one that bugs me the most and I feel the need to post this video again (it's about AC and iRacing, but the lack of progression on the iRacing tyre model fits this perfectly), is this myth that the 'limit' is a line that is you step over it for a millisecond you will die in a fiery mess, this is not true at all.

And that Point of no return can thankfully be felt somewhat good with the right FFB Settings.
I‘m playing with the GT DD Wheel and I have 0 Problems to feel the Cars‘ Limit itself.

This breaks down into a few areas here:

Understeer: For reasons I have gone into too many times, how GT represents this is simply wrong, this isn't subjective, it objectively defies tyre physics.
Curbs: Most of them don't seem to exist from a FFB perspective, including some bloody big ones, and I'm not just talking about the impact of the curb, but steering deflection from curbs as well
Oversteer: this one seems to be better on DD wheels, but certainly, those of use with non-DD wheels find this is poorly communicated.

I've just come off the back of doing a lot of FFB testing between RF2, AMS2 and some new custom FFB files for PC2, and have been dropping in and out of GT7 in between. With the exact same wheel the differences between these titles and GT7, in terms of FFB , is stark, in terms of communicating what the car and tyres are doing, GT7 is still massively lacking (in this regard it's better than FM7 and FH5), and not in a singular area, but right the way across the board.


TL: DR
In short update 1.09 has made GT7 far better in terms of physics, it still has a way to go, but the steps are still in the right direction, however it's FFB is poor in terms of both accuracy and detail.

 

[ederss7]

Why no one is talking about the ridiculous grip some cars have? I was doing Le Mans (circuit experience) with the 908 and thought I was playing a GTA game. Just for the sake of comparison, the entry of the Porsche Curves can be done at 310km/h, while the correct speed would be around 250km/h. Seriously, I want to believe it's a glitch somehow.

 

[xMAXIx79]

Overall I'm still happy with the physics and it definitely feels a lot better than GTS now. At first I was still very insecure, but I got involved.
Now I'm at the point where I find the Gr4-Gr3-Gr2 vehicles very comfortable, of course there can be a whole lot more feedback in the steering wheel (I use the cheap T248) but I can deal with it once I've learned a track so far and know where I get feedback from the Curbs and where I don't.

What still bothers me a lot is the "behaviour of some road vehicles", no matter how well they are tuned. Above all, I criticize the BMW 3.0 CSL and unfortunately also the KPGC10 Skyline 2000 GT-R. They behave predictably, but just much too violently If you're even a mph too fast, the slightest input on the steering wheel results in instant and severe oversteer.

Example Deep Forest:

After the first 180-degree turn, it's easy going uphill with a really minimal crest, even with the smallest steering angle, both the BMW and the GT-R say goodbye, despite RS tires. The left turn continues at the exit of the 2nd tunnel.
Then the downhill south and the 90 degree left.. both difficult points for these vehicles.. the narrow 180 degree, on the other hand, works very well, but then the very slight right-hand bend with the minimal crest or later the long left.. both curves are SO like here a tuned vehicle should not cause such problems. It's not that great, but manageable if you reduce the power. After a few tests, however, I can say that I'm faster with these vehicles when ASM and countersteering are activated.. that doesn't have much to do with "driving" anymore.. but it's much faster.

 

[MrMattAdz]

Overall I'm still happy with the physics and it definitely feels a lot better than GTS now. At first I was still very insecure, but I got involved.
Now I'm at the point where I find the Gr4-Gr3-Gr2 vehicles very comfortable, of course there can be a whole lot more feedback in the steering wheel (I use the cheap T248) but I can deal with it once I've learned a track so far and know where I get feedback from the Curbs and where I don't.

What still bothers me a lot is the "behaviour of some road vehicles", no matter how well they are tuned. Above all, I criticize the BMW 3.0 CSL and unfortunately also the KPGC10 Skyline 2000 GT-R. They behave predictably, but just much too violently If you're even a mph too fast, the slightest input on the steering wheel results in instant and severe oversteer.

Example Deep Forest:

After the first 180-degree turn, it's easy going uphill with a really minimal crest, even with the smallest steering angle, both the BMW and the GT-R say goodbye, despite RS tires. The left turn continues at the exit of the 2nd tunnel.
Then the downhill south and the 90 degree left.. both difficult points for these vehicles.. the narrow 180 degree, on the other hand, works very well, but then the very slight right-hand bend with the minimal crest or later the long left.. both curves are SO like here a tuned vehicle should not cause such problems. It's not that great, but manageable if you reduce the power. After a few tests, however, I can say that I'm faster with these vehicles when ASM and countersteering are activated.. that doesn't have much to do with "driving" anymore.. but it's much faster.

Yeah Deep Forest is a good place to see odd behaviour in cars. At times it feels like the car is floating, the left hander as you are reaching the bottom of the hill before the start/finish makes most road cars feel like widowmakers, apply anything more than minimum steering angle and the rear loses grip.

I'm happy to report that I don't have any experience driving a road car downhill at 130mph, but even with that lack of experience it still feels wrong somehow, out of place with the rest of the handling model. Even if you have a dodgy or stock setup, the kind of behaviour you see with cars like the Evo VI with only 295bhp and 50:50 torque vectoring is bizarre, the car is completely stable at the front but the rear feels like it's about to take off, completely weightless.

Apply a load of rear downforce and the problem is somewhat resolved, as you'd expect, but the issue feels like real world physics that have been exaggerated and as a result require an exaggerated amount of rear downforce to fix.

 

[MarrGuitar]

Once again, if you look at the higher lobbies in this week's daily race C, there's nothing wrong with the physics. People are racing 13 laps at Brands Hatch in gr.3 cars with often worn RH tyres, without assists. And to be competitive, you have to be slightly over the limit in corners, sliding more or less in many of them. People regularly lose it just a bit too much, catch it and keep going, without losing speed.

Just because people are able to drive around the weird physics and still be competitive, doesn’t mean they are realistic, or even good for that matter. It just means people are able to adapt to it.

I’m DR.A, and I am able to drive anything with decent pace - sometimes needing TC - but the way I’m having to drive in order to keep the car in control is just strange. The snap oversteer and sudden loss of grip is awful IMO. For me there’s no doubt that the physics need a lot of work.

 

[wheelhp]

ACC is okay but AC was crap, and well known for it. It's something you can get used to, and you can find something that's useable with a lot of experimentation but it wasn't designed for controller use so it's far from optimal. GT games have always been praised for there controller implementation and this game is as good as any of the others, possibly better with the DualSense.... once the weird tyre physics at high speeds is fixed.

I have no idea why you're getting sore but I'd imagine it could be because you're just not used to the physics yet so you're not as relaxed as you are with the other games.

But was AC bad in the physics department? Icetto Corsa eh?

I’m at my wits end with the physics. I spent a good amount of time this evening trying to get my E30 M3 to handle nicely on sports soft tyres, but to no avail. It spins out on very slight corners, even in 3rd gear low revs and low throttle!

I’ve only got moderate power mods on it for it to behave that way; less than 350bhp. It has full weight reduction, race brakes, fully customisable suspension, full LSD etc - basically, all the handling mods.

No matter what I change in the tuning setup, it makes no difference to the problem. Suspension changes only seem to affect the off-power handling of the car. LSD changes seem to do almost nothing. Believe me I’ve tried everything… you name it, I’ve tried it.

I believe the issue lies in the tyre model and here’s why: with a decent suspension/geometry setup I can throw just about any car very aggressively into corners and it has so much grip and loads of stability. But the slightest touch of throttle on the slightest bend and the thing wants to swap ends immediately. You’d think this points to a bad LSD setup but whatever I change on the LSD makes no difference in any way. It’s like the tyres just stop working properly the moment you put power through them. I’ve tested this with a few cars and it’s the exact same thing, including low power cars and high power cars, on sports tyres and on slicks.

For reference I’m a wheel user (I’ve played the game G29 and recently upgraded to Fanatec GT DD), the physics feel odd on both wheels. I use TC1 at the most and no other assists beside ABS weak/default. In my opinion the physics are very very strange in this game, both for road cars and race cars. The race cars just seem to mask the tyre issues with huge amounts of downforce, and using the assists do the same. Like slapping a bandaid on it

I'm convinced it's the tyre model that's a few revisions away from being decent. It wouldn't surprise me since all the top sims still struggle with accurate tyre physics to this day. A simcade like GT7 has a tyre problem? Not surprised considering the track record.

 

[unfairlane]

I don't believe the physics are unpredictable..

So far, I’m very very pleased with the Driving Physics..

I find it wery hard to take you sesiously on this guys. We have all had several weeks now to try out the game. Statements like this
tells me of a frighteningly low skill level. Guess there will allways be some who doesn`t see or are willing to or able to see no matter what. But this threads topic has been outdebated for a long time now, we need to move on.

To your defence; the tire-physics problem does only appear (clearly) on some cars, primarely older FR-cars. There are many cars that behaves quite normally. But realism is not a word that should be used in conjuction with GT7.

The wery first thing I noticed in this game was "Oh, the car has no inertia!!" Cars feels allmost weightless in GT7, and that is what Kaz & co tryes to cover up this by adding on some of their "realism". Their problem is that the carphysics has become so overcomplicated that they have lost the grip on the most eccensial physical parameters. Those of you who has worked with car-physics will probably know what I mean.

 

[Td04]

I find it wery hard to take you sesiously on this guys. We have all had several weeks now to try out the game. Statements like this
tells me of a frighteningly low skill level. Guess there will allways be some who doesn`t see or are willing to or able to see no matter what. But this threads topic has been outdebated for a long time now, we need to move on.

To your defence; the tire-physics problem does only appear (clearly) on some cars, primarely older FR-cars. There are many cars that behaves quite normally. But realism is not a word that should be used in conjuction with GT7.

The wery first thing I noticed in this game was "Oh, the car has no inertia!!" Cars feels allmost weightless in GT7, and that is what Kaz & co tryes to cover up this by adding on some of their "realism". Their problem is that the carphysics has become so overcomplicated that they have lost the grip on the most eccensial physical parameters. Those of you who has worked with car-physics will probably know what I mean.

Car has no inertia? This Is a really nice,biased,********.

 

[wheelhp]

Car has no inertia? This Is a really nice,biased,********.

LOL. I guess people at different skill levels certainly take an interesting stance...

 

[driftnick13]

Once again, if you look at the higher lobbies in this week's daily race C, there's nothing wrong with the physics. People are racing 13 laps at Brands Hatch in gr.3 cars with often worn RH tyres, without assists. And to be competitive

Maybe in another 100 pages you'll understand what people are saying, it has nothing to do with being competitive or learning how the physics work and as people have mentioned the gr.3 race cars are easier to control over the limit.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Maybe in another 100 pages you'll understand what people are saying, it has nothing to do with being competitive or learning how the physics work and as people have mentioned the gr.3 race cars are easier to control over the limit.

Road cars are easier than race cars. But sure, I look forward to the next 100 pages. Or eventually people will find that the physics have been fixed secretly (placebo, since they've adapted/learnt/fixed their FFB).

 

[NevilleNobody]

Physics are weird man, I can take the 787 with a zillion horsepowers and drive with confidence but a bog stock road car is a snappy mess.

 

[dabz343]

I have been searching for a stock car that exemplifies the kind of physics I enjoy, so that PD could use it as a benchmark for future tweaks. So far, every car I have evaluated had to be tuned. Some just needed a custom LSD, while others much more, and some were utterly hopeless...but yesterday I found a car that needed nothing imo -- it was near perfect, right out of the box.

It's a bit pricy, but this AMG is something special. Hope some of you guys try it and give an unbiased feedback. While not perfect, I think it has many positives that should inspire future updates.

I'm enjoying it now at 400 - 550hp on SM -- with slight tweaks to the LSD to dial in my preferred rotation & slip, but it is astonishingly good in stock form, with any hp/torque values.

 

[Lord Protector]

The fact there is even such a heated debate suggests that something is wrong. You simply don't get these sorts of complaints if the physics are roughly on point. The happy rear end is clearly an issue that numerous people have commented on, from casuals, to track enthusiasts, to racing drivers, to pro sim racers, etc...

The issue will sort of semi-resolve itself though, as we get used to it we'll learn to drive in a manner to adapt for it. The placebo being that it feels like it's getting better.

Unless you actually drive in real life Then it won't, and you'll keep crashing in the game based on your realistic expectations the game fails to represent.

 

[MarrGuitar]

I have been searching for a stock car that exemplifies the kind of physics I enjoy, so that PD could use it as a benchmark for future tweaks. So far, every car I have evaluated had to be tuned. Some just needed a custom LSD, while others much more, and some were utterly hopeless...but yesterday I found a car that needed nothing imo -- it was near perfect, right out of the box.

It's a bit pricy, but this AMG is something special. Hope some of you guys try it and give an unbiased feedback. While not perfect, I think it has many positives that should inspire future updates.

I'm enjoying it now at 400 - 550hp on SM -- with slight tweaks to the LSD to dial in my preferred rotation & slip, but it is astonishingly good in stock form, with any hp/torque values.

View attachment 1131251

If I remember right, the AMG you use on the IA-10 license test was good to drive too. The rear stepped out a bit but it was controllable and more predictable than other cars I’ve tried. Some cars definitely make more sense than others when it comes to handling.

Edit: pressed send before I finished writing by accident. Edited to finish the comment

 

[aguia]

A game that needs TCS, Bah! I made the event S-10 without any helps, slow and cautious it's right, but i got gold. I tested it with TCS 1 and considered it a waste of time.

 

[Tenacious D]

I found a car that needed nothing imo -- it was near perfect, right out of the box.

A number of people have been praising the AMG Black, and I intend to grind a bit of Daytona Truck to afford one. It's a shame that a lower powered Mazda, Nissan or Toyota - RX-7, Supra - isn't one of them, but maybe the FT86 is close.

I've also been using Deep Forest to test my... ahem, tunes, mostly Praiano's excellent work. It's kind of a micro Nordschleife, with turns over elevation changes.

 

[Td04]

LOL. I guess people at different skill levels certainly take an interesting stance...

No, it is just that i agree that oversteer is exaggerrated on the game. But even some complains here are exaggerrated too.

People played for years GTS, that sucks for real, or stuff like Fm6 that Is even worse,without trying to complains about everything.
Gt7 It Is not accurate as Acc,and It has its problems,as other racing games.
This does not mean It doesn't do a nice job overall,in physics regards.

Personally i find Just traumatic to drive Fwd Road Cars with many hp without TCS.
Not the miata, gt86 or stuff like that as some people wrote here

 

[DivitLad]

After driving the veyron in one of the circuit missions /i can vouch the physics are borked, bizzare experience that was.

 

[Scaff]

People played for years GTS, that sucks for real, or stuff like Fm6 that Is even worse,without trying to complains about everything.

Not true at all, name a title and a good chance exists that the physics will have been discussed, and compared to all manner of titles.

GT7 isn't being singled out here in any way, quite the opposite, it's getting the same analysis that any other title does, GT as a series is however one of a small number that some will defend to the death, regardless of how demonstrable the issues are (iRacing and PC3 tend to be the other two, but that will of course vary depending on the forum you are in).

 

[ruggermole]

Not true at all, name a title and a good chance exists that the physics will have been discussed, and compared to all manner of titles.

GT7 isn't being singled out here in any way, quite the opposite, it's getting the same analysis that any other title does, GT as a series is however one of a small number that some will defend to the death, regardless of how demonstrable the issues are (iRacing and PC3 tend to be the other two, but that will of course vary depending on the forum you are in).

I'm serious, I'm going to go looking for threads for where people defend PC3 physics cause that has to be the funniest copium I've ever seen.

Also the more I play the more I'm convinced the issues have less to do with physics and more to do with extremely sensitive steering input.