Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Johnnn]

You can also feel on the wheel.. the only time I don’t get the sensation is when I stomp on the gas and the car has a lot of torque example my F8… then that snap oversteer slaps you on the face!

So it's the same. I can really play with the limit if I am precise enough, everything is there. If you do it too harsh, you get fast grip loss and it's over. Wet track is the same, it looks very sensitive first but it's a wet track. It should be!

 

[kilesa4568]

Did you post YOUR videos? I can find people on YouTube praise GT7 physics also.. that’s not my issues… I’m actually posting MY driving and backing up my claims not posting others people videos… I’m playing the game driving the cars with downgraded tires and no abs no electronic aids. I have asked people who are having trouble post a lap… not YouTube videos of other people driving..

Every single video and review I've seen on GT7 describes the physics as 'weird' with the only positive being that the game becomes much more challenging (specifically rear wheel drive road cars) as a result.

What you need to understand about physics is that if something is even slightly off, it can feel totally out of sync with reality and in 7, reality has been thrown out of the window as there's a few things that feel off. It's still a game and we're capable of adapting to it (as you say) but as a driving game I want to play, in a title where the physics has made me a repeat customer, it's too big a sacrifice for my own driving pleasure to persevere with it. In fact I'd have to be desperate to play it in its current state...which a lot of people seem to be.

...and I didn't see the point in supplying a video when every single person, including yourself, knows about the snap oversteer, excessive weight loss on crests and an infuriating low speed loss of grip. I could supply a video of me driving another 5% under the limit to stop a lot of the oversteer and do a big lift before crests but for the life of me, I've no idea how to get around the low speed loss of grip so it would be pointless.

 

[Scaff]

Wait. This might be purely semantics, but this doesn't make any sense to me. I have always understood the phrase "the limit" to mean the point where the tires' grip transitions fully from elastic to frictional, or in other words the point where the lateral grip graph peaks and then begins to drop off. So to me it seems strange to say that tires generate the most grip "over the limit", because by definition the limit is where they generate the most grip. But I'm neither an engineer nor a physicist, so I could absolutely be mistaken.



Just as a note, I only post this to clarify my understanding of tire physics, not because I disagree with you about the physics of GT7.

Of referring to the limit of tyre slip, which is the deviation in degrees between the direction the tyre is at and the direction the vehicle is travelling. In very rough terms road tyres generate the most grip at around 6 degrees and race tyres at around 4 degrees.

As such they quote literally are generation the most grip after the have passed the limit of slip, because rubber is basically weird stuff.

However, yes, it does depend on which limit is being referred to, however when racing drivers are taking about a limit, its normally that of the tyres.

 

[tedaxe]

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate that.
It wasn’t my intention to dig down further into a Thematic which has been discussed to death.
We have the ones saying the Driving Physics feel fine to them, same as the ones feeling the other way around.
It’s never been my intention to convince anyone to believe what I say.
I can only speak from my experience and point of View, and like I said to me there is nothing broken with the Driving Physics.

I find it quite funny though, you say you suspect I underdrive the Car, stay below its Limits and therefore probably not notice the problem.
That’s interesting. And you‘re correct.
I never try to purposely overdrive a Car, as it feels unnatural to me.
Not only that, it’s unnecessarily slowing me down and hurts my Lap times.
Yet, when I do it I don’t have Problems controlling it as long as I don’t go too far.
Every Car has its Limits and to me I don’t enjoy driving at or above this Limit.
It’s too exhausting and dangerous.
The amount of Focus is not worth the payout.
At the Limit, all good.
Anything beyond, better say your Prayers.
I‘m not that skilled, my reactions are not what they were anymore a few years ago.
I learned to stay within MY LIMITS.
The Cars are not the Limiting Factor to me, it’s me 😉
And I wouldn’t call myself a Sunday Driver neither.
This Week for example I’m just 1 Second off the Worlds fastest Lap Time at Circuit the Catalunya for Daily Race C.
Took me maybe 30 Minutes of trying out and reaching MY Limit.
The Car is obviously capable of more…but I’m not 😁

Perfect physics
220hp car that can start a drift midcorner in 5th gear with Sport Hard tires.
Everyone in Formula Drift with 600-800hp must be wrong.

 

[Goshin2568]

Of referring to the limit of tyre slip, which is the deviation in degrees between the direction the tyre is at and the direction the vehicle is travelling. In very rough terms road tyres generate the most grip at around 6 degrees and race tyres at around 4 degrees.

As such they quote literally are generation the most grip after the have passed the limit of slip, because rubber is basically weird stuff.

However, yes, it does depend on which limit is being referred to, however when racing drivers are taking about a limit, its normally that of the tyres.

Yeah, but aren't tires always slipping to some degree? Even turning at like 3mph isn't there some tiny degree of slip angle? It seems like if we take that as the definition of "over the limit", then tires are always operating over the limit.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

I’ve pretty much done a full u turn on the issues I had at the start. And the earlier post about speed being greater than we realise is spot on. I just completed the Bathurst CE in a mere two hours 😵‍💫. Naturally I wanted to watch my handiwork on the replay and I really looked at the Speedo for the first time. The sharp left up the hill I took at 65mph. That’s insanely quick; of course you’re not going to survive stamping the throttle with that turn angle and that speed.
Where I would like to see some improvements is the FFB at high speed long corners. The catalunya CE in the lambo is a good example where your gauging where the oversteer is from memory when it bit you before rather than being able to feel it through the wheel.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah, but aren't tires always slipping to some degree? Even turning at like 3mph isn't there some tiny degree of slip angle? It seems like if we take that as the definition of "over the limit", then tires are always operating over the limit.

Yes and no, they only start deflection after a certain point (which depends on the tyres themselves) , but it's also in relation to the lateral force generated and Self aligning torque, as I did rubber is odd stuff.

 

[JDMKING13]

I’ve pretty much done a full u turn on the issues I had at the start. And the earlier post about speed being greater than we realise is spot on. I just completed the Bathurst CE in a mere two hours 😵‍💫. Naturally I wanted to watch my handiwork on the replay and I really looked at the Speedo for the first time. The sharp left up the hill I took at 65mph. That’s insanely quick; of course you’re not going to survive stamping the throttle with that turn angle and that speed.
Where I would like to see some improvements is the FFB at high speed long corners. The catalunya CE in the lambo is a good example where your gauging where the oversteer is from memory when it bit you before rather than being able to feel it through the wheel.

I agree with you big time, and I feel watching my replays have helped me big time.. also getting use to the linear throttle and rolling smooth on the throttle vs GTS punch the throttle out of the turns. Being smoothing with throttle inputs the whole 9 yards pretty much. I have driven my Ferrari’s for about a month.. Now I am on to Porsche and first thing you can feel how during each year the 911 has gotten refined… while I love the 997 GT3 the 991 is just a better car.. you can instantly feel the impact Porsche made by putting the engine a little forward… all the other 911 have that rear heavy feeling and you feel it especially in the turns.. the 991 feel great a lot more balanced. The GT1 and Carrera GT is in another class in my opinion.

 

[dabz343]

I'm beginning to feel it as less about broken physics, and more about misinterpretation of speed being carried. We're so used to just chucking a car into corners and expecting it to grip thru and on exit that having to use more real world approaches and inputs makes the physics seem broken

You make a fair point as I have always suffered from this in all sims,. The only thing that helped was my friend's motion rig with triple monitors...he even had some sort of a fan blowing air towards my face, but the only thing that silly gadget did was dry my eyes out.

Even the pro drivers in the real world run the cars as close to the limit without going over...that's the point, staying within the limits

Tyres generate the most grip at the point they are slipping, which is over the limit, professional drivers dance the car on the limit

This might be purely semantics, but this doesn't make any sense to me. I have always understood the phrase "the limit" to mean the point where the tires' grip transitions fully from elastic to frictional, or in other words the point where the lateral grip graph peaks and then begins to drop off.

Words have a way of failing us...think we can all agree that the 'limit' is the narrow/broad window of slip for a given tire that provides the highest level of grip...and for me personally, I also consider how a tire behaves beyond the limit...I used to have a lot of fun on cheap all-season tires during my youth -- it was never about pace, rather trying desperately to be dancing on the limit like the pros...then failing irreverently, and learning to counter with beautifully subtle inputs because the tires were so forgiving.

Get yourself a cheap set of tires during the hottest days of summer and slide around til the cows come home. I still do this on occasion, best $200 ever spent!

I would like to add...the level of grip for a car/track/sector/corner depends largely on driver inputs. If you are subtle, yet precise with inputs, know how to load and balance the car on entry, then you will find more grip, especially in the transient stage...this applies to all parts of a corner. If you are ham-fisted with your inputs, you will demand too much from each axle/tire and will never get to utilize the full potential that is there for you to play with.

Difficult to explain in words...

 

[Td04]

I'll stop with cherry picking video, i promise 🥲

 

[JDMKING13]

You make a fair point as I have always suffered from this in all sims,. The only thing that helped was my friend's motion rig with triple monitors...he even had some sort of a fan blowing air towards my face, but the only thing that silly gadget did was dry my eyes out.



Words have a way of failing us...think we can all agree that the 'limit' is the narrow/broad window of slip for a given tire that provides the highest level of grip...and for me personally, I also consider how a tire behaves beyond the limit...I used to have a lot of fun on cheap all-season tires during my youth -- it was never about pace, rather trying desperately to be dancing on the limit like the pros...then failing irreverently, and learning to counter with beautifully subtle inputs because the tires were so forgiving.

Get yourself a cheap set of tires during the hottest days of summer and slide around til the cows come home. I still do this on occasion, best $200 ever spent!

I would like to add...the level of grip for a car/track/sector/corner depends largely on driver inputs. If you are subtle, yet precise with inputs, know how to load and balance the car on entry, then you will find more grip, especially in the transient stage...this applies to all parts of a corner. If you are ham-fisted with your inputs, you will demand too much from each axle/tire and will never get to utilize the full potential that is there for you to play with.

Difficult to explain in words...



View attachment 1137406

Your last statement is spot on… hence why I’ve been asking people for driving footage, I am having no trouble with the cars and understand where my limits and the cars limit most of the time, but thats me I was eager to see how others, especially the ones saying the physics are broken driving technique was… btw nice post.

 

[llNovall]

You make a fair point as I have always suffered from this in all sims,. The only thing that helped was my friend's motion rig with triple monitors...he even had some sort of a fan blowing air towards my face, but the only thing that silly gadget did was dry my eyes out.



Words have a way of failing us...think we can all agree that the 'limit' is the narrow/broad window of slip for a given tire that provides the highest level of grip...and for me personally, I also consider how a tire behaves beyond the limit...I used to have a lot of fun on cheap all-season tires during my youth -- it was never about pace, rather trying desperately to be dancing on the limit like the pros...then failing irreverently, and learning to counter with beautifully subtle inputs because the tires were so forgiving.

Get yourself a cheap set of tires during the hottest days of summer and slide around til the cows come home. I still do this on occasion, best $200 ever spent!

I would like to add...the level of grip for a car/track/sector/corner depends largely on driver inputs. If you are subtle, yet precise with inputs, know how to load and balance the car on entry, then you will find more grip, especially in the transient stage...this applies to all parts of a corner. If you are ham-fisted with your inputs, you will demand too much from each axle/tire and will never get to utilize the full potential that is there for you to play with.

Difficult to explain in words...



View attachment 1137406

Great video and input all around. Thank you.

 

[Jayceon47]

Perfect physics
220hp car that can start a drift midcorner in 5th gear with Sport Hard tires.
Everyone in Formula Drift with 600-800hp must be wrong.

I see why @Scaff avoids this thread 😂

 

[Johnnn]

Every day better. I can do very aggressive thing to my car if I am precise enough. It's amazing, the game is so deep. Another thing I thought about is throttle simulation. If I remember correctly PC simulates throttle like it should. Most games uses throttle position with RPM mapping? Something like that, maybe it's real, I don't know. But since release it's not important what throttle position is but what my engine does and it could confuse people too. You need to listen to your engine mostly.

 

[dabz343]

Great video and input all around

You started it good sir!

 

[Niop]

The reduced sense of speed in GT7 is a moot point when it comes to the issue of snap oversteer.
This issue comes into play once you've already made the corner and are trying to put down the power on corner exit.

And again, if you're playing on controller, you're playing a different a different game.
It is so much easier to catch the slides on controller.
Personally, I had to use the controller to gold the drift missions.

 

[Johnnn]

And again, if you're playing on controller, you're playing a different a different game.
It is so much easier to catch the slides on controller.
Personally, I had to use the controller to gold the drift missions.

For drifting for sure, it's Horizon style like in GTS. Normal driving is very far from drifting, it's more like sim controls.

 

[llNovall]

The reduced sense of speed in GT7 is a moot point when it comes to the issue of snap oversteer.
This issue comes into play once you've already made the corner and are trying to put down the power on corner exit.

And again, if you're playing on controller, you're playing a different a different game.
It is so much easier to catch the slides on controller.
Personally, I had to use the controller to gold the drift missions.

Define "put the power down". Since changing my approach (I'm on G29), I have found I am able to modulate and work into full throttle on corner exit while still holding significant lateral g's. Just finished messing around with the stock BMW M4 with RH tires at Dragon Trsil Gardens..plenty of grip. Yes if you stab or try to be too aggressive, the tail will swing, but with gradual application thru the corner, I had no problem loading the rear tires and exiting without fuss. I have gone on youtube and online and have been watching real world track driving, and very few if any go full send on the throttle mid corner or while still holding lateral g's on exit...nearly all of them are working the throttle in gradually as they unwind the steering wheel. Again, too each his own on their opinions of the physics...for me, using a real world approach to driving in this game has come to be quite rewarding.

 

[dabz343]

This issue comes into play once you've already made the corner and are trying to put down the power on corner exit.

Have experienced this personally myself, but have also adjusted my inputs to find my line...could you post a video so we are not bantering back and forth about imaginary scenarios?

I have my own issues with the physics too -- I'm leaning more and more on the lackluster FFB others have pointed out -- but the drama about physics from some here just seems a bit...shall I say, dismissive.

It's that time now, ya gotta support your claim by proving a video of how you drive. Many are adjusting and realizing that there is a newer and nuanced way about GT7's physics -- especially if you are coming from GTS...if after month in, it still isn't working for you, then just provide a video of what's going on in your world.

Sidebar -- I remember in the early days of GTS, there was a'grip bug' where some players had an unreal level of grip, allowing them to brake 50 meter later and stay on throttle without any drama...I'm trying to say that this game - -which costs about as much as a tank of gas -- has flaws...so if you are having trouble, just share a vid...and at the least PD is able to view and do their internal thing.

Provide a vid, if you don't know how, someone here will help...it is a community after all...a fair one, I hope.

 

[kilesa4568]

Have experienced this personally myself, but have also adjusted my inputs to find my line...could you post a video so we are not bantering back and forth about imaginary scenarios?

You want us to post a video of us showing the physics quirks...even though you've experienced them for yourself?

Kinda silly calling them imaginery scenarios, don't you think?

 

[dabz343]

You want us to post a video of us showing the physics quirks...even though you've experienced them for yourself?

Give it a rest...Sincerely, offer something of substance. Stop the nitpicking.

 

[kilesa4568]

Give it a rest...Sincerely, offer something of substance. Stop the nitpicking.

Riiiight...

 

[dabz343]

Exactly.

 

[Niop]

For drifting for sure, it's Horizon style like in GTS. Normal driving is very far from drifting, it's more like sim controls.

To catch a slide, and to maintain a slide it is far easier on a controller.

Have experienced this personally myself, but have also adjusted my inputs to find my line...could you post a video so we are not bantering back and forth about imaginary scenarios?

I have my own issues with the physics too -- I'm leaning more and more on the lackluster FFB others have pointed out -- but the drama about physics from some here just seems a bit...shall I say, dismissive.

It's that time now, ya gotta support your claim by proving a video of how you drive. Many are adjusting and realizing that there is a newer and nuanced way about GT7's physics -- especially if you are coming from GTS...if after month in, it still isn't working for you, then just provide a video of what's going on in your world.

Sidebar -- I remember in the early days of GTS, there was a'grip bug' where some players had an unreal level of grip, allowing them to brake 50 meter later and stay on throttle without any drama...I'm trying to say that this game - -which costs about as much as a tank of gas -- has flaws...so if you are having trouble, just share a vid...and at the least PD is able to view and do their internal thing.

Provide a vid, if you don't know how, someone here will help...it is a community after all...a fair one, I hope.

I took @llNovall's advice and drove a stock M4 with RH tires around Dragon Trail.
With racing slicks I was expecting it to be very planted. I was surprised to find out how unsettled it was.

I don't really see the point in posting a video, as I'm fairly certain everyone on either "side" has already made up their mind.
But here you go anyway. Do with it was you will.

In the 7-8 laps I ran these are the incidents that caught my attention.
I don't believe the rear end should have stepped out on any of them.

G29, no aids aside from ABS Default

 

[dabz343]

To catch a slide, and to maintain a slide it is far easier on a controller.

I took @llNovall's advice and drove a stock M4 with RH tires around Dragon Trail.
With racing slicks I was expecting it to be very planted. I was surprised to find out how unsettled it was.

I don't really see the point in posting a video, as I'm fairly certain everyone on either "side" has already made up their mind.
But here you go anyway. Do with it was you will.

In the 7-8 laps I ran these are the incidents that caught my attention.
I don't believe the rear end should have stepped out on any of them.

G29, no aids aside from ABS Default

Thx for the vid first of all. I was focused on your inputs and conclude there are no obvious faults that I can point to, except for the parts you ride over the curbs -- this part is hard to decipher. So my general experience with the M4 is different...but I also remember having to adjust my approach to finding speed.

As a test, try focusing on corner entry and maintaining balance mid corner...and most importantly, progressively applying throttle as you unlock steering on exit. Said differently, a bit more patience on mid/exit...like 0.15 sec.

Tough to give input here based on clips, but it seems you are too eager in gong full throttle, particularly in the second clip (0.14 sec into your vid), which causes a slide. I grant you that on RH, perhaps this should never happen in real life...but at nearly 100mph, as an informed colleague has stated -- you better know your speed and what you are asking of your car/chassis/tire.

Being on the limit is subtle. It is elusive in nature, that is why it takes years. Having said that, it doesn't mean that a game like GT7 is inaccessible. On the contrary, I'm sure PD wants the game to be enjoyable.

Btw, I just remembered reading something about FFB on Logitec G29...someting about turning off the coloring/enhancement/detail...I can't remember exactly, but the recommendation was to get rid of any added noise because you don't feel the weight and rotation. Search for it and make sure you are confident about your wheel FFB settings.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

I could post a video (or fifty) of me spinning out the lambo at Barcelona but it wouldn’t help. I know why I span out, but it’s that split second between spinning out and not that the FFB isn’t indicating to me. I guess irl it wouldn’t be something you would feel through the wheel but it’s the only thing we have in the game so I hope they just look at giving us a bit more information through the wheel.

 

[llNovall]

I could post a video (or fifty) of me spinning out the lambo at Barcelona but it wouldn’t help. I know why I span out, but it’s that split second between spinning out and not that the FFB isn’t indicating to me. I guess irl it wouldn’t be something you would feel through the wheel but it’s the only thing we have in the game so I hope they just look at giving us a bit more information through the wheel.

I have the G29 as well and used to run low torque (3), and high sensitivity (whatever the max). I changed on GT7 to 5/5 with controller sensitivity at zero and for me, it made a huge difference in what I could feel...everything from the weight of the car to the road surface, and even a light shutter as grip is being lost at the front. Was a game changer for me. Also, as you mentioned, we're limited on what senses are at our disposal (most obvious is g force/seat of the pants feel), so we do need to rely on other aspects to compensate. Audio is a big one....I run headphones, and as the car rotates into a corner the tires begin to chirp/squeal. Going in a little too hot, carry a little too much speed, or trying to jump on the throttle a little too much too early and the tires ares talking more. Using the audible cues along with what I feel in the wheel has certainly helped me get up to and past the limit with far less drama...to the point that I can sense/feel the rotational slip thru the corner.

 

[Johnnn]

I took @llNovall's advice and drove a stock M4 with RH tires around Dragon Trail.
With racing slicks I was expecting it to be very planted. I was surprised to find out how unsettled it was.

I would try sports too. Racing tires are a bit weird to me. I would expect them bit different but what can I know? I've never driven them. My best races are on sports because you can really feel the car.

 

[Td04]

Racing tires,on Road cars without a good setup could make the car handle quite nervous

 

[Niop]

As a test, try focusing on corner entry and maintaining balance mid corner...and most importantly, progressively applying throttle as you unlock steering on exit. Said differently, a bit more patience on mid/exit...like 0.15 sec.

Tough to give input here based on clips, but it seems you are too eager in gong full throttle, particularly in the second clip (0.14 sec into your vid), which causes a slide. I grant you that on RH, perhaps this should never happen in real life...but at nearly 100mph, as an informed colleague has stated -- you better know your speed and what you are asking of your car/chassis/tire.

Being on the limit is subtle. It is elusive in nature, that is why it takes years. Having said that, it doesn't mean that a game like GT7 is inaccessible. On the contrary, I'm sure PD wants the game to be enjoyable.

Btw, I just remembered reading something about FFB on Logitec G29...someting about turning off the coloring/enhancement/detail...I can't remember exactly, but the recommendation was to get rid of any added noise because you don't feel the weight and rotation. Search for it and make sure you are confident about your wheel FFB settings.

I can drive the car just fine and post fast laps with the limits provided by GT7. But the point of this is to show the areas I feel are far to exaggerated and unrealistic.

I'll have to look into that coloring/enhancement/detail, haven't heard anything about it.

I have the G29 as well and used to run low torque (3), and high sensitivity (whatever the max). I changed on GT7 to 5/5 with controller sensitivity at zero and for me, it made a huge difference in what I could feel...everything from the weight of the car to the road surface, and even a light shutter as grip is being lost at the front. Was a game changer for me.

I may have to revisit this as well. I played around with the FF settings early on but I think I'm currently at 3 FF strength, max FF sensitivity.

Racing tires,on Road cars without a good setup could make the car handle quite nervous

I chose that setup as it was stated as a more planted and pleasant car to drive. The car behaves similarly on SH and SS tires, just less grip overall.
But as far as tuning the car to negate the stock physics is beside the point as well. I don't want to have to add fully customizable LSD/suspension to a stock car to make it not want to kill you.

The front of the car feels like it's on rails and the rear wants to step out all the time. I really think PD have just taken some attributes from the rear and added it to the front.