Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[xMAXIx79]

Oh yes the G Force was awesome and to understand how much speed are possible with that F1 CAR was sooo..... i lost my Words

 

[D_Dragline]

I've not seen anyone say that the only problem is other people not adapting to the changed physics, most that I have seen have said that it, while still not perfect, is a step in the right direction.

These 5 posts seem to be saying just that to me.

I love the physics, on point pd! Great job

Because you're using the wrong settings, as I believe you were in GTS, but the consequences here are much worse. That goes for Z28Gaming as well.
Just try the recommended settings by Fanatec. The only thing you should lower if you want to experiment is FF, INT and NDP. Drop the magic formulas.

I'm having a blast with GT7 with all cars on my GT DD Pro. Nothing unexpected happens. And I only use ABS, as in GTS. But I totally see what people mean - the physics engine has become much harder without assists.

I love it and hope they don't change much with time. To me, it feels like going from 480p to 4k in visual resolution.

So now that I’m deep into golding the license tests on PS4 using a DS4 and no aids, I’ve come to a conclusion.

The tuning of the inputs must be VERY different for gamepad and steering wheel. I’m not having much difficulty at all, and in fact the cars are behaving more appropriately, more predictably, and the controller inputs seem much more direct and appropriate than they were in GTS. It’s a challenge but it’s doable and very rewarding.

I assume the tuning for steering wheels is basically just 1:1, i.e. the game only gives you what you put in, i.e. if you want to control oversteer you actually have to turn the wheel lol. It’s like a self-imposed hard mode and it makes a lot of sense to me.

I also think this oversteer “problem” people are discussing is a myth. I’m not having any trouble on gamepad at all. Everything I’m seeing is a direct result of riding a car on the limit, and since none of us are enjoying an actual seat-of-the-pants sensation, the limit is very easy to approach and exceed. I’d wager that most of our instincts are actually to exceed the limit which is why Super GT or Ollie get on there and instantly spin out on the rain. Well no ****, it’s raining, but they’re not feeling the sense of delicacy that you can feel in the seat of a real car.

I do expect PD to update this behavior because there are so many complaints but I personally, on gamepad, am not seeing a problem that can’t be fixed with sticky tires, tuning, and a bit of aero, all of which are tools that race cars use to eliminate the instabilities of road cars. We do have wings in the game now after all.

Edit: Also I think muscle memory plays a roll. The most advanced drivers on GTS play often, are precise, and have a lot of expectations for each car and each track. Throw a new system at them and it forces a difficult re-learning process. I think most of us won’t suffer from that problem and will be able to adapt quicker, but obviously we’ll likely still never reach the ceiling of those more advanced players.

I don't think they're 'bonkers' at all. If we use the example of the Nissan at Tsukuba licence test, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that if you're full throttle in that left hander before the timing line, the car is going to be unstable at the rear. I do think the tyres are perhaps lacking the grip one would expect of them, but the car behaviour is largely predictable and controllable in my experience. Once I had a couple of attempts at that particular licence and thought about my approach more carefully rather than expecting I can smash the throttle in 3rd gear of a reasonably powerful sportscar and get away with no power oversteer, I found it much easier to get a good time. Same goes for the NSX @ Suzuka hairpin. I had one attempt to feel what the car would do and get a base time, and then easily passed the gold time on the 2nd attempt.

Throttle control is a thing and it does appear that a lot of people have got used to things being rather easier in that area in past titles.

Looks pretty good to me. You're driving a heavy, high hp/tq, RWD car with traction control off around a bend at 100mph, a bit stabby on the throttle while feeding it even more steering lock when it breaks loose.

The cars feel like they have mass in this. Traction control can only do so much.

This thread is painful to read. I don't know why I'm torturing myself. Some people like GT Sports handling better and thus that makes it more realistic and GT7 must be broken. It couldn't be anything else.

Anyway, my GT DD Pro arrived today and I put my first laps in using my 996 GT3, basically cup car, that I was using for the Porsche Cup. Absolutely love it. The car feels like it has a ball and chain on the back.. because it has an engine behind the rear wheels. Drive it like a motorcycle: Straight line braking, try not to trail, and then ease on the throttle through the whole turn to balance the car out. Smooth inputs. Leave on TC1 obviously. The car is a bit of a handful but I was able to control the slides even better with the wheel setup. So much fun to drive on the limit.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

Playing with the DualSense, I haven’t experienced snap oversteer

Controller has persistent counter steer assist active even if you turn it off. It’s incredibly noticeable if you switch from the wheel to the pad.

 

[Scaff]

These 5 posts seem to be saying just that to me.

It looks a lot more like you're reading far more into those posts than I read into them.

However I note that you still haven't answered my main question.

"Which car, which corner of which track, what speed, what driver aids being used, etc."

 

[JDMKING13]

It looks a lot more like you're reading far more into those posts than I read into them.

However I note that you still haven't answered my main question.

"Which car, which corner of which track, what speed, what driver aids being used, etc."

I thought is was more so giving him example on how they are dealing with the new physics… After I saw his video I could immediately tell he is using GTS style driving playing GT7 which is not going to work…

Edit: I’m Sorry he wasn’t the one with the video

 

[Scaff]

Here's a nice link to a video and short article that highlights the point that powerful, fast cars are not always easily or commonly driven on the limit, and that a driver who knows car control well and as a result is able to maximise lower powered machinery can be quicker.

An Lamborghini Aventador SVJ on paper will eat a Cayman GT4 for breakfast, better aero, 492 vs 283 bhp/tonne, AWD vs MR, manual vs paddles etc.

[Video] Cayman GT4 matches Aventador SV round the 'Ring | GRR

Proof that on the Nordschleife, it’s not what you’ve got but what you do with it…

www.goodwood.com

 

[D_Dragline]

It looks a lot more like you're reading far more into those posts than I read into them.

However I note that you still haven't answered my main question.

"Which car, which corner of which track, what speed, what driver aids being used, etc."

Firstly, if you go back and look at my posts you’ll see I’m not finding the game unmanageable.

But if you want specifics the most obvious places I have observed a problem are;

The Corvette at Big Willow license test, even with TCS 2, sees the back snap around with minimal throttle on at relatively low speed.

The M3 license test at Catalunya is unrealistic even with TCS 3.

The Shelby Mustang at Trial Mountain is still very prone to snap oversteer with minimal input and TCS2.

 

[Scaff]

Firstly, if you go back and look at my posts you’ll see I’m not finding the game unmanageable.

But if you want specifics the most obvious places I have observed a problem are;

The Corvette at Big Willow license test, even with TCS 2, sees the back snap around with minimal throttle on at relatively low speed.

I've run it back to back with real world footage, the car in the licence test is arguably fitted with the wrong tyres to match reality. Pop on the next grade up and take one for a drive. Not only does it now match the real cars cornering speed but you no longer have the issue with snapping back. Oh and the real cars almost certainly running ASM as well.

I also did a comparison with AC and got similar behaviour.

The M3 license test at Catalunya is unrealistic even with TCS 3.

Why is it unrealistic? Simply saying it's unrealistic doesn't really help.

The Shelby Mustang at Trial Mountain is still very prone to snap oversteer with minimal input and TCS2.

I've not driven that combo, but will give it a go tonight, what do you define as minimal input? Is that throttle, steering, are you running ASM, and what are you comparing it to?

 

[M666-SHM]

Controller has persistent counter steer assist active even if you turn it off. It’s incredibly noticeable if you switch from the wheel to the pad.

ive literally just came on here to see how you go about turning off the counter steer assist properly, i play with a pad and have all assists off yet it automatically counter steers for me, and even if i do a 180 and im going backwards down a straight it did a j turn for me.

im really disappointed with the game because of this tbh as often find im correcting oversteer thats already being corrected and launching myself off the track.

i used to win 40-50% of my online races on gt sport but wouldnt even bother attempting to go online yet through fear of embarassment

 

[KAlex122]

would be interesting if counter steer was completely off with motion controll

 

[Nielsen]

In GT7 the R35 GT-R oversteers on the throttle like a Dodge Hellcat. I’m so confused.

 

[Moglet]

I disagree to some extent. You can say you don't like the physics but lots of people calling it unrealistic which in my opinion is not even possible to assess on a controller. Sure you can not like them or like them but it's impossible to know if they are realistic or not without a wheel and without some track experience in real life. It falls into the not extremely great not even close to bad category for me which is a great improvement over GT sport and I hope they will build on this engine because with a better tyre model and some subtle changes it could be really special. There are no games on console with a realistic driving model and a huge amount of variety. ACC physics are fantastic but it's very limited in content. GT7 is already leading there and it could become very special with a few minor tweaks.

You can still tell if they don't feel realistic to some degree, although I agree that you need a wheel to truly tell what it feels like. My main issue seems to be with the sensitivity of the left stick for steering, I can be smooth with the inputs but the low level input feels like it has a very small dead zone. I assume this is because the inputs are now linear.

 

[M666-SHM]

This is true however I'm pretty sure that the majority of players will be on a controller and the game still has to be playable for them so they are well within their rights to judge the physics.

agreed with counter steer not switching off on a pad and 4wd cars switching ends in a straight line somethings just not right. I dont have the space for a good chair and wheel setup etc and really couldnt justify the cost as have real world cars that more than satisfy my need to go fast.

 

[Scaff]

In GT7 the R35 GT-R oversteers on the throttle like a Dodge Hellcat. I’m so confused.

On OEM tyres that seems to be how they are, particularly in R-Mode

More oversteer with street camber settings?

www.gtrlife.com

Norm/R-Mode/VDC Off

www.gtr.co.uk

 

[JDMKING13]

Have some of you play AC? I only have it for console and while the graphics are outdated the physics are excellent! As I said before coming from GTS to AC was extremely different and difficult… the reward of doing a smooth lap was better than doing a blazing fast lap in GTS because it took so much control and concentration. AC has made this transition to GT7 for me a lot easier, but many of us have been playing GTS for years… your not going to master the new physics engine in a week..

 

[Nielsen]

On OEM tyres that seems to be how they are, particularly in R-Mode

More oversteer with street camber settings?

www.gtrlife.com

Norm/R-Mode/VDC Off

www.gtr.co.uk

Before GT7 I had never played a game where the R35 didn’t understeer under throttle. Equipping it with a softer compund of sports tyres doesn’t make much of difference.

I think part of the problem is related to the wobbly suspension physics in GT7. Cars begin to oversteer simply from mild turn-in because the springs provoke a sudden weight shift, meaning the car loses balance to the point where the accelerator becomes lethal. It can be managed with gentle throttle modulation, but the R35 is so unlike what I’m used to with other simulators.

Even with cars you’d expect to oversteer under throttle, such as the E46 M3, the effect in GT7 is so sudden that there’s little room to control a slide. It simply kicks out the rear in an instant, and saving it from spinning around is all you can do. There’s hardly any room in between.

 

[Scaff]

Before GT7 I had never played a game where the R35 didn’t understeer under throttle. Equipping it with a softer compund of sports tyres doesn’t make much of difference.

I think part of the problem is related to the wobbly suspension physics in GT7. Cars begin to oversteer simply from mild turn-in because the springs provoke a sudden weight shift, meaning the car loses balance to the point where the accelerator becomes lethal. It can be managed with gentle throttle modulation, but the R35 is so unlike what I’m used to with other simulators.

Even with cars you’d expect to oversteer under throttle, such as the E46 M3, the effect in GT7 is so sudden that there’s little room to control a slide. It simply kicks out the rear in an instant, and saving it from spinning around is all you can do. There’s hardly any room in between.

I've not driven the R35 in GT7 yet, however my experience with the E46 sounds totally different to yours, as I've not had an issue with it at all. Quite the opposite I found it to transition from understeer to oversteer on throttle in a reasonably realistic manner.

 

[JDMKING13]

Before GT7 I had never played a game where the R35 didn’t understeer under throttle. Equipping it with a softer compund of sports tyres doesn’t make much of difference.

I think part of the problem is related to the wobbly suspension physics in GT7. Cars begin to oversteer simply from mild turn-in because the springs provoke a sudden weight shift, meaning the car loses balance to the point where the accelerator becomes lethal. It can be managed with gentle throttle modulation, but the R35 is so unlike what I’m used to with other simulators.

Even with cars you’d expect to oversteer under throttle, such as the E46 M3, the effect in GT7 is so sudden that there’s little room to control a slide. It simply kicks out the rear in an instant, and saving it from spinning around is all you can do. There’s hardly any room in between.

You gonna make me buy an R35 now. 😂

 

[rtsbasic]

I love how physics discussions divide opinions so vastly. It's the hot potato of the sim racing world, no ones really wrong, everything we feel is subjective..

For what it's worth, I've spent tracktime in karts, FWD hatches and training in RWD rally driving. Sim racing almost 20 years. I'm not biased to any particular sim and have most everything installed on PC. Primarily VR racing in AMS2/iRacing.

The physics of GT7 are a definite step up and show a depth PD haven't yet before. There's more going on behind the scenes without any doubt, I think most everyone would agree.

While lacking the racing focused immersion of a 'proper' simulator, the feel is convincing. On an accessible level I would make strong parallels to AC. Using TC/ABS in a more realistic manner will enhance pace such as in the real world. I just wish ABS controls were more granular similar to the TC level.

FFB is lacking detail and this is probably contributing to the poor feel of tyre limits. The linear mapping of throttle input compared to GTS creates a very different feel and perhaps this catches some people off guard. It feels far more how I would expect now and in-line with other titles. Using a drivehub adapter and a ts-pc offers a solid if plain FFB feel.

The default tyre choices on some cars are a little odd. Its been fun to go up/down on tyre choices and notice the differences and what behaviours come out the woodwork.

Perhaps some work is to be done on how the tyres load up and the effect this has on rear traction, that said I sincerely hope PD don't dumb the driving model down, this is the best GT has ever been and lays a strong foundation for the future.

 

[LokusAbriss]

Many forget that you don‘t floor the gas in real as you do in GT7. I doubt that you can go 100% throttle position out of a corner, while still not going directly straight, with a Mustang 350R or an GTR R35. Even in lower powered FF cars you will understeer or have wheelspin. Especially with normal street tyres.

I find it crucial to position the car right and manage the throttle accordingly.

It is still a big transition coming from Forza, AC and ACC. But a fun and welcome one.

 

[JDMKING13]

I love how physics discussions divide opinions so vastly. It's the hot potato of the sim racing world, no ones really wrong, everything we feel is subjective..

For what it's worth, I've spent tracktime in karts, FWD hatches and training in RWD rally driving. Sim racing almost 20 years. I'm not biased to any particular sim and have most everything installed on PC. Primarily VR racing in AMS2/iRacing.

The physics of GT7 are a definite step up and show a depth PD haven't yet before. There's more going on behind the scenes without any doubt, I think most everyone would agree.

While lacking the racing focused immersion of a 'proper' simulator, the feel is convincing. On an accessible level I would make strong parallels to AC. Using TC/ABS in a more realistic manner will enhance pace such as in the real world. I just wish ABS controls were more granular similar to the TC level.

FFB is lacking detail and this is probably contributing to the poor feel of tyre limits. The linear mapping of throttle input compared to GTS creates a very different feel and perhaps this catches some people off guard. It feels far more how I would expect now and in-line with other titles. Using a drivehub adapter and a ts-pc offers a solid if plain FFB feel.

The default tyre choices on some cars are a little odd. Its been fun to go up/down on tyre choices and notice the differences and what behaviours come out the woodwork.

Perhaps some work is to be done on how the tyres load up and the effect this has on rear traction, that said I sincerely hope PD don't dumb the driving model down, this is the best GT has ever been and lays a strong foundation for the future.

I have said it many times! If people are using their GTS style of driving it’s going to be extremely difficult to drive in GT7… how sensitive the throttle response is a huge difference over GTS… This was my first hint my pedals are ass… the throttle pedal is way to light I need stronger spring… I’m just going to get new pedals!

 

[Nielsen]

I've not driven the R35 in GT7 yet, however my experience with the E46 sounds totally different to yours, as I've not had an issue with it at all. Quite the opposite I found it to transition from understeer to oversteer on throttle in a reasonably realistic manner.

Ok. Overall I’m just frustrated with the driving experience in GT7 so far. I know the Nordschleife better than my own backyard, and I’ve done countless clean laps on it without issue in various games over the years, including GT Sport. However, in GT7 I’m yet to complete a clean lap on this track. If I don’t lose control under braking then I often do under weight transfer to the sides. Driving cars like the RUF Yellowbird unassisted on the Nordschleife in Assetto Corsa taught me more than anything how to be gentle, but with GT7 I keep crashing from handling quirks I don’t anticipate before it’s too late.

 

[Rods]

I believe what most people are struggling with is actually a mix of input progression (vs going all out like in GTS) and of managing the weight transfer.

Sudden inputs like smashing the brakes or taking your foot of the brakes without ease will throw any real car off balance. That’s finally reflected in Gran Turismo.

You just have to focus on weight transfers and input progression.

 

[JDMKING13]

Ok. Overall I’m just frustrated with the driving experience in GT7 so far. I know the Nordschleife better than my own backyard, and I’ve done countless clean laps on it without issue in various games over the years, including GT Sport. However, in GT7 I’m yet to complete a clean lap on this track. If I don’t lose control under braking then I often do under weight transfer to the sides. Driving cars like the RUF Yellowbird unassisted on the Nordschleife in Assetto Corsa taught me more than anything how to be gentle, but with GT7 I keep crashing from handling quirks I don’t anticipate before it’s too late.

That’s respectable bro… just keep practicing I’m sure you will keep getting better and better! I am also noticing how track elevation makes a huge impact on how the cars handle vs GTS… if you gas ⛽️ it on a uneven surface you will easily disrupt the chassis.. the sensation Im getting from these production cars make me feel as, if you want to run a production car on the track hard your going to have to tune it up! So in stock form I'm going to be using a lot of TCS and maybe even ASM if it’s competitive.

 

[Seikenfreak]

I believe what most people are struggling with is actually a mix of input progression (vs going all out like in GTS) and of managing the weight transfer.

Sudden inputs like smashing the brakes or taking your foot of the brakes without ease will throw any real car off balance. That’s finally reflected in Gran Turismo.

You just have to focus on weight transfers and input progression.

I keep thinking of this while driving and forgetting to mention it. It comes back to what I said about the cars feel like they have mass now and it moves around.

The thing that comes to mind is, if I recall correctly, @Scaff can probably correct me, but the polar moment of inertia? It's like the central point of mass in a car i.e. center of gravity and how quickly the mass transitions from what area to another. The point in space you're balancing on can vary from whatever the car is and the suspension setup etc. Depending on all sorts of factors, this will affect how abrupt of a weight transition there is and thus how easy or difficult it is to manage. I'm sure I'm wording this poorly. More aggressive, sudden inputs will exaggerate this. And you can see people mention jerking the control stick around. You need to be very gentle and linear with your controller inputs.

But the cars do now feel like there is a weight to them and you can see the body moving around the suspension in replays, even in racier cars. It would seem reasonable to me to think that people who are not used to this would think the cars are very difficult to handle.

If there's an argument to be made, I think its that PD should work on better assists for people. And also put their egos away and let go of the "I drive with zero assists on because I know I'm good" mentality. I had that for a long time. Because these console games weren't nearly as realistic as they are these days. Specifically with Sport around launch, I remember fighting with myself about using TCS. I thought, surely this game shouldn't require it. And then I got into the S rank online races and watching some of fellow racers to see that even the best were using traction control. I then I beat it into my head.. These (Gr3/Gr4) race cars have traction control in real life. It's there for a reason and it's silly to think you're cool to not use it.

 

[Scaff]

The thing that comes to mind is, if I recall correctly, @Scaff can probably correct me, but the polar moment of inertia? It's like the central point of mass in a car i.e. center of gravity and how quickly the mass transitions from what area to another. The point in space you're balancing on can vary from whatever the car is and the suspension setup etc. Depending on all sorts of factors, this will affect how abrupt of a weight transition there is and thus how easy or difficult it is to manage. I'm sure I'm wording this poorly. More aggressive, sudden inputs will exaggerate this. And you can see people mention jerking the control stick around. You need to be very gentle and linear with your controller inputs.

Sort of, the PMI (Polar Moment of Inertia) is basically a value that determines how easily a car wants to change direct, it's primarily determined by how close to the centre of gravity the mass of the car is. The closer the lower the value and the more easily and quickly a car will want to start and stop rotating, the further away the less easily it will want to start and stop rotating.

Its basically why mid-engine cars are more nimble than front-engine cars even if the weight, wheelbase, track-width, tyre size, etc are all identical.

Chassis engineering: Polar moment of inertia

Inertia is the resistance of an object to change its rest or motion status. This property is clearly described in Newton’s First Law, which states that an object will remain at rest or in uni…

decarreteres.wordpress.com

 

[DPereira_2909]

Honestly I feel physics are vastly improved. Almost feels like AC some times. TC I found more realistic too even though I never use that. Lockups with no ABS are no longer death sentences and you can snatch just one wheel at a time now. They still happen far too easily though. Overall, if the game had a proper tyre temperature model, you could call it an honest sim I think

 

[Seikenfreak]

Have golded every license. Please get out of here with this skill issue nonsense to try and counter actual valid criticisms of a game that has improved a lot, but still could use work. No one is asking for an easier game.

Who said I was referring to you? There are plenty of people around here complaining that the golds are so difficult to get as a measure of how difficult it is to drive in this video game.

And I also said that the game isn't perfect and needs work. I don't think it needs nearly as much work as much work as some people think it does because, from my understanding and experience, there is usually a rational explanation as to why a car is behaving the way it is. Whether that is characteristics of a car or the inputs of a driver..

Side note: Tried putting a 1 way LSD in my 997 GT3 and it made it more stable. So if people are looking for tricks to try and stabilize a car, maybe try that.

 

[super_gt]

Those guys who have a problem with rear-wheel drive cars try how they go with tires with better grip but only at the rear.
For example SH in the front and SM in the rear.

 

[Theufcveteran]

Controller has persistent counter steer assist active even if you turn it off. It’s incredibly noticeable if you switch from the wheel to the pad.

I noticed this. But it does only seem to kick in when you’ve really got an angle. It hasn’t saved me from spinning. Or perhaps it has and I haven’t noticed it but I only remember seeing it when I have no hope of catching the slide. Maybe it kicks in earlier than I thought?

EDIT: It does indeed activate sooner than I thought. It’s subtle initially but that is likely part of what’s stopping me losing the back end.